Re: Names in original language

[Guest guest]

:

> I like that idea but it bugs me when the radio station makes a huge

> deal about pronouncing the name exactly as it should be in the native

> language. Like they always say Bacccchhh, pronouncing the 'ch'like

> they're clearing their throat or spitting!

LOL!!!

But that IS what his name was! Calling it " Baak " sounds very funny to me.

Guess you REALLY don't like van Gogh pronounced as in the Netherlands then,

if you don't like that throat-clearing sound. :-)

I guess some sounds are just hard if you're not used to them. French Prince

Henry who married Queen Margarete of Denmark soon made himself unpopular in

his new homeland by publicly declaring that " Danish is not a language, it's

a throat disease. " :-)

I wonder if he is an Aspie? That's such a typical Aspie booboo, isn't it?

Inger

[Guest guest]

>

> :

Like they always say Bacccchhh, pronouncing the 'ch'like

> > they're clearing their throat or spitting!

>

> Inger: LOL!!!

>

> But that IS what his name was! Calling it " Baak " sounds very funny

to me.

>

> Guess you REALLY don't like van Gogh pronounced as in the

Netherlands then,

> if you don't like that throat-clearing sound. :-)

> I wonder if he is an Aspie? That's such a typical Aspie booboo,

isn't it?

: point taken! Must be my American egotism sticking out! I try

to eradicate it, but bits are still there! (or maybe more than bits!)

'Van Gogh' does sound a bit like throat clearing! I love Bach and Van

Gogh so out of respect...though what stands out on the radio is how

they will be talking in 'perfect' radio-ese English and when they

come across a foreign word they'll say it a touch louder and faster

and what appears to be a slight stuffiness (e.g., " See, I am

cultured, I know how to pronounce these words " ). And then I shouldn't

laugh at 'Mandalika el Barco' (don't know if I got her name right)

one of the reporters who will say her name so strongly and quickly in

a Spanish accent--like a Puerto Rican, like Charro, or someone with a

lot of character and flavor!

Then too, I kind of like hearing my name in another language--or what

approximates it, and don't mind if people say my name wrong or spell

it wrong (Carri Cari Carry Cary Keri Kerri Kerrie Kery Kari Karri

Karrie Kary (maybe Kerree will be next--that double E at the end of

names is becoming popular!), etc.!)

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>> Inger:I wonder if he is an Aspie? That's such a typical Aspie

booboo, isn't it?

>

> : point taken! Must be my American egotism sticking out!

Oh dear! I wasn't out to make a point at all, I just recalled that

story by association and retold it because I thought it was funny.

(I'm just reading in Temple Grandin's Thinking in pictures that

autistic brains often work by association, just like mine did here).

Then when I had written it down, it occurred to me that it's so Aspie

to say something you yourself thing is kinda funny & clever but then

find to your horror that you just may have said it to the wrong crowd

(in his case the Danish poeple, hehe). Don't know how many times I've

made a similar mistake. Luckily, I don't have to read about mine on

the front page of the paper the next day. :-)

> what stands out on the radio is how they will be talking

in 'perfect' radio-ese English and when they come across a foreign

word they'll say it a touch louder and faster and what appears to be

a slight stuffiness (e.g., " See, I am cultured, I know how to

pronounce these words " ).

Yes, I know what you mean. It does stand out in a way that's almost

comical. I guess they can't win; if they pronounce the words

correctly, we think they're snobs. If they don't, we think they're

ignorant.

Inger

[Guest guest]

>> Inger:I wonder if he is an Aspie? That's such a typical Aspie

booboo, isn't it?

>

> : point taken! Must be my American egotism sticking out!

Oh dear! I wasn't out to make a point at all, I just recalled that

story by association and retold it because I thought it was funny.

(I'm just reading in Temple Grandin's Thinking in pictures that

autistic brains often work by association, just like mine did here).

Then when I had written it down, it occurred to me that it's so Aspie

to say something you yourself thing is kinda funny & clever but then

find to your horror that you just may have said it to the wrong crowd

(in his case the Danish poeple, hehe). Don't know how many times I've

made a similar mistake. Luckily, I don't have to read about mine on

the front page of the paper the next day. :-)

> what stands out on the radio is how they will be talking

in 'perfect' radio-ese English and when they come across a foreign

word they'll say it a touch louder and faster and what appears to be

a slight stuffiness (e.g., " See, I am cultured, I know how to

pronounce these words " ).

Yes, I know what you mean. It does stand out in a way that's almost

comical. I guess they can't win; if they pronounce the words

correctly, we think they're snobs. If they don't, we think they're

ignorant.

Inger

[Guest guest]

A year or two ago, I read a news-article about a newscaster who grew

up speaking Spanish and English natively. She got fired for having

pronounced her own first and last name with the pronunciation of the

language which that name belongs to instead of mispronouncing it in

the way that most English-speakers mispronounce it when they try to

say it (the way the station-director, and most of the other staff and

the audience would mispronounce it).

She sued - I don't remember if she won or not - on the grounds

that a requirement that she should mispronounce her own name (in order

to " fit in " with station policy on " how that name should sound " or

" how this name sounds when the rest of us say it " ) discriminated

against people who know Spanish. I hope she won - if I went to work

for a business in a country that doesn't speak English, I'd hate to

have to start mispronouncing " Kate Gladstone " in some way that matched

this or that local mispronunciation of a name they might indeed find

difficult. I'd rather pick another name that they could pronounce, and

use that name at work, than have them tell me I had to pronounce my

own name wrong or else lose my job.

Yours for better letters,

Kate Gladstone

Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest

handwritingrepair@...

http://learn.to/handwrite, http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair

325 South Manning Boulevard

Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA

telephone 518/482-6763

AND REMEMBER ...

you can order books through my site!

(Amazon.com link -

I get a 5% - 15% commission on each book sold)

[Guest guest]

I actually get rather annoyed when I hear the English pronounciation

of for example Wagner like " wagon " instead of [Vaagner].

I think basic pronounciation rules for say, the 10 or 20 most

commonly used languages should be compulsury in school. Once one has

learned that a German W is alsays pronounced [V], and V as [F], it's

easy to say [FolkVagen] instead of something that sounds like " wolfs-

wagon " and Vogel like [Faugel] instead of " vougel. "

Just like most know that José is usually pronounced [Hosé] in Spanish

and hóla is [óla].

It also annoys me when some use French expressions without actually

knowing the correct pronounciation. If you want to say " cherchez la

femme " you do need to know that " femme " is pronounced [fam].

And that Greek, Latin and Japanese words usually have the emphasis in

the beginning of he word, thus [ósaka] not Osáka, for example.

When I see names written in a language whose pronounciation rules I'm

not familiar with, I feel dissatisfied not knowing with what

pronounciation to store them my head. Because once I've stored them

with that sound, it's hard for me to change later.

Being regularly subjected to subtitled films in foreign languages I

think should also be part of education. Here in Sweden, nothing is

dubbed on TV. Therefore we get to hear many languages, though mainly

English, of course.

Inger

[Guest guest]

I actually get rather annoyed when I hear the English pronounciation

of for example Wagner like " wagon " instead of [Vaagner].

I think basic pronounciation rules for say, the 10 or 20 most

commonly used languages should be compulsury in school. Once one has

learned that a German W is alsays pronounced [V], and V as [F], it's

easy to say [FolkVagen] instead of something that sounds like " wolfs-

wagon " and Vogel like [Faugel] instead of " vougel. "

Just like most know that José is usually pronounced [Hosé] in Spanish

and hóla is [óla].

It also annoys me when some use French expressions without actually

knowing the correct pronounciation. If you want to say " cherchez la

femme " you do need to know that " femme " is pronounced [fam].

And that Greek, Latin and Japanese words usually have the emphasis in

the beginning of he word, thus [ósaka] not Osáka, for example.

When I see names written in a language whose pronounciation rules I'm

not familiar with, I feel dissatisfied not knowing with what

pronounciation to store them my head. Because once I've stored them

with that sound, it's hard for me to change later.

Being regularly subjected to subtitled films in foreign languages I

think should also be part of education. Here in Sweden, nothing is

dubbed on TV. Therefore we get to hear many languages, though mainly

English, of course.

Inger

[Guest guest]

>

> " I actually get rather annoyed when I hear the English

pronounciation

> of for example Wagner like " wagon " instead of [Vaagner]. "

Yeah, I like to her the 'v'for words beginning with 'w' in German.

I hate to here Mozart's name pronounced as it's spelled: Moz-art,

instead of mot-sart. Once I had someone correct me when I said 'Mot-

sart'. They said, " It's Moz-art! "

>

> " I think basic pronounciation rules for say, the 10 or 20 most

> commonly used languages should be compulsury in school. Once one

has

> learned that a German W is alsays pronounced [V], and V as [F],

it's

> easy to say [FolkVagen] instead of something that sounds

like " wolfs-

> wagon " and Vogel like [Faugel] instead of " vougel. "

>

> Just like most know that José is usually pronounced [Hosé] in

Spanish

> and hóla is [óla].

>

> It also annoys me when some use French expressions without actually

> knowing the correct pronounciation. If you want to say " cherchez la

> femme " you do need to know that " femme " is pronounced [fam].

>

> And that Greek, Latin and Japanese words usually have the emphasis

in

> the beginning of he word, thus [ósaka] not Osáka, for example. "

It would be good to have pronunciation rules. I thought 'femme' was

pronounced 'fem' instead of 'fam' and I thought Osaka was

pronounced 'o-SA-ka'. I had a friend from Iran who said the proper

pronunciation for his country was with the 'i' pronounced as in the

word 'in' not 'line', and the 'a' in 'ran' pronounced as in 'on'

not 'ant'. Most say it the wrong way.

>

> " Being regularly subjected to subtitled films in foreign languages I

> think should also be part of education. Here in Sweden, nothing is

> dubbed on TV. Therefore we get to hear many languages, though

mainly

> English, of course. "

Some don't like subtitles but I do. I like to hear the words spoken

in the language, the way they sound, and you do learn from it. I saw

a Mozart opera day before yesterday in German and there was a lot of

repetition so that you could come away with a few German words and

how to pronounce them.

[Guest guest]

People naturally have a tendency to pronounce words according to their own language. I've often heard foreigners mispronounce place names and such over hear. Usually you can understand what they mean unless the accent is very heavy.

Every language has its peculiar sounds and pronunciations. The roll their "r" in the throat while the Spanish on the tip of the tongue which American English doesn't roll the "r" at all. Japanese doesn't have the "L" sound, but it does have sounds that English doesn't. All of this only adds to the confusion.

Most of the time I will try to pronounce a name properly because I've been a stickler for that kind of thing all my life. I have been able to pronounce the names of some professors and others that were hard by English standards. We had one science professor who was from Bosnia and her name had two sounds in it that were not in English. The sounded something like "itch" with a drawn out "i" and a "z" in there around the "c". The second was easier in theory but tough in practice: a "hhhlooo" sound but all in one bit, nice and tight. Combined with the last syllable of the name it wasn't easy. Still, I asked her to demonstrate those sounds a few times and I got them.

I'm not so picky with place names, but people's names, especially if you are talking to them, should be pronounced precisely. Not doing so can be taken as insulting or as laziness on your part especially if you have known them for a while but don't correct yourself, or both.

[Guest guest]

I like to pronounce place names with any damn emphasis pattern I'm

comfortable with. Everyone to the comfort of their own mouths. Do we

have English-derived place names pronounced perfectly by everyone with

a different first language?

It's really too intrusive to tell anyone which syllable to emphasise, it's part of natural accent variation. I certainly say O-sa-ka, and so what, it's the same name? Stras-burg rather than Stras-boo-org,

just to flow naturally with my voice. There is claimed by some to be a

rule that 2-syllable place names in Scotland should always be

second-syllable emphasised, just for the sake of difference, e.g. Coat-bridge,

and if it's not your habit it feels really unnatural and strained. With

a voice that has adapted around the southern pattern of going for first

syllables,I shall continue to say Coat-bridge.

[Guest guest]

I meant maninly on TV, Maurice.

I was in no way suggesting that you personally change your speech

pattern to suit my ears. :-)

Inger

>

> I like to pronounce place names with any damn emphasis pattern I'm

> comfortable with. Everyone to the comfort of their own mouths. Do we

> have English-derived place names pronounced perfectly by everyone

with a

> different first language?

>

> It's really too intrusive to tell anyone which syllable to

emphasise,

> it's part of natural accent variation. I certainly say O-sa-ka, and

so

> what, it's the same name? Stras-burg rather than Stras-boo-org,

just to

> flow naturally with my voice. There is claimed by some to be a rule

that

> 2-syllable place names in Scotland should always be second-syllable

> emphasised, just for the sake of difference, e.g. Coat-bridge, and

if

> it's not your habit it feels really unnatural and strained. With a

voice

> that has adapted around the southern pattern of going for first

> syllables,I shall continue to say Coat-bridge.

>

[Guest guest]

Do you know how to pronounce the letters Æ, Ø and Å?

>

> People naturally have a tendency to pronounce words according to

their own

> language. I've often heard foreigners mispronounce place names and

such over

> hear. Usually you can understand what they mean unless the accent

is very

> heavy.

>

> Every language has its peculiar sounds and pronunciations. The roll

their

> " r " in the throat while the Spanish on the tip of the tongue which

American

> English doesn't roll the " r " at all. Japanese doesn't have the " L "

sound, but it

> does have sounds that English doesn't. All of this only adds to the

> confusion.

>

> Most of the time I will try to pronounce a name properly because

I've been a

> stickler for that kind of thing all my life. I have been able to

pronounce

> the names of some professors and others that were hard by English

standards. We

> had one science professor who was from Bosnia and her name had two

sounds in

> it that were not in English. The sounded something like " itch "

with a drawn

> out " i " and a " z " in there around the " c " . The second was easier

in theory

> but tough in practice: a " hhhlooo " sound but all in one bit, nice

and tight.

> Combined with the last syllable of the name it wasn't easy. Still,

I asked her

> to demonstrate those sounds a few times and I got them.

>

> I'm not so picky with place names, but people's names, especially

if you are

> talking to them, should be pronounced precisely. Not doing so can

be taken

> as insulting or as laziness on your part especially if you have

known them for

> a while but don't correct yourself, or both.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

WIlliam:

> I have been able to pronounce the names of some professors and

others that were hard by English standards. We had one science

professor who was from Bosnia and her name had two sounds in it that

were not in English. The sounded something like " itch " with a drawn

out " i " and a " z " in there around the " c " .

That's a good description.

Slavic names can be confusing if you don't know the rules (and no one

ever bothered teaching us these rules in school).

I had a Yugoslavian work mate (before Yogoslavia was divided into

Bosnia etc.) who was called Dragica (and no, she was not related to

Vlad Tepes or Magica de Hex). Would you believe her name was

pronounced [Drakítza]?

A hungarian teacher was called Silagy. That was supposed to be

pronounced [siladj], like fudge. (Same as for every name with " gy " at

the end.)

Inger

[Guest guest]

I wrote:

> A hungarian teacher was called Silagy. That was supposed to be

> pronounced [siladj], like fudge.

....or rather like sludge, with a thick L.

Inger

[Guest guest]

Just saw one of Grahan-Dixon's exquisite little art programs on BBC

Learning. This hour was about Vermeer and he managed to paint a very

in-depth picture of him and his family despite the lack of personal

correspondence, by following his footsteps on location and tracing him in

various public recordings. All in all, a very inspiring program. Well, apart

from one little annoyance...

If you're an acclaimed art expert who is THAT interested in a specific

artist, and go to such lenghts to find out everything about him, including

talking to dozens of local experts who all mention his name in Dutch, would

it really be too much to ask of him to listen to how they pronounce the

names of Vermeer (and his patron) and use that when discussing him with

them? It really would have made a big difference, I think.

Inger