Re: FIR and enzymes/Off topic

[Guest guest]

First of all, we're off topic for this list...

Next, Wow, Donna. This is quite a statement!

I'm a Naturopath and Cancer Hyperthermist and have used FIR and other

energies over the last 15 years on a clinical

daily basis and I'd like to see your research citations for such a

statement... maybe it is terminology but what you're stating here is

incorrect...

Where did you learn this from?

Yes, heat always speeds up enzyme reactions, but increasing metabolic

enzyme PRODUCTION by FIR photons is a guess at best. If you want to

understand how heat helps the body rid itself of cancer, the mechanisms

are very well known (the energy causes the water around the cells to

vibrate very fast, producing intracelular heat --a fever-- which in turn

damages proteins and shuts down the S-phase of the mitotic process and

acidifies tumors). We can do this biochemically with intracellular

hyperthermia using uncouplers as well as externally with Far Infrared,

Microwaves, etc.

Production of enzymes to eliminate cancer is really not the mechanism

although enzymes certainly are needed to help the liver and kidneys

remove the debris, no question...we always supplement our cancer pts.

with cultured and fibrinolytic enzymes...

I'd still be interested in your citations?...

Dr.Bormann

**********************

CountryGirl wrote:

>Also I forgot to mention that FIR photons increase the production of

>enyzmes in the body that help the body to eliminate cancer.

>

>Blessings

>Donna

>http://www.excellentthings.com

>

>

>

>

>OxyPLUS is an unmoderated e-ring dealing with oxidative therapies, and other

alternative self-help subjects.

>

>THERE IS NO MEDICAL ADVICE HERE!

>

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[Guest guest]

Dr Borman,

I agree with your premise on how FIR works in the body. However,

I have read some technical articles that suggest that there may be a

transfer of energy in the mitochondria, but this is in the catagory

of, way out there, quantum physics hypothetical research. I didn't

understand much of it myself. There is no studies to validate this

that I know of. Still in the theoretical realm.

An electron is a string or a particle, depending how you want to

look at it. And depending how you look at it will influence the

results that you find. Just as light had been theorized as a wave

by one group and as a particle by another group, each camp found

evidence to support their own theory. It is generally accepted now

that light is particles that travel in waves. Depending what they

were looking for they found evidence to support it.

In the mitochondria an electron, transferred from NADH flows through

a series of proteins in the electron transport chain which results

in building a concentration gradient of hydrogen inside the

mitochondria. The hydrogen following the concentration gradient

flows through an enzyme (ATP synthatase) to produce ATP. This

process is diagramed at

http://www.xmission.com/~total/temple/Program/datadir/FMS_Etiology/

fmspres1pg43.php3

(Note: Oxygen is used in this process to attract the hydrogen to it.

Without oxygen, ths aerobic processes in the mitochondria is

blocked.)

According to the information in the article I read it suggested that

there could be a small transfer of energy to the electron in the

mitochondria.

It is generally accepted that each cell creates its own energy (ATP)

and there is no sharing of ATP energy between cells. Cells are not

designed to accept ATP from outside sources and the energy life of

an ATP molecule is so short that this is not feasible. Another

article that I read suggested that there could be a sharing of

energy between cells at the mitochondria level, and that this energy

was shared by light energy.

This too is still in the realm of theory.

I can't answer to the validity of Donna's information. At this time

I think that the benefit FIR sauna is most likely coming from the

rise in temperature. But there could be things happening at a level

that has yet to be discovered.

I found the scientific papers online through different google

searches. You might try using some keywords and see what turns up.

One thing about cancer that I've read is that the cells have a

greater amount of sodium and from this it was concluded by the

author that a person with cancer should avoid sodium. I agree that

table salt sodium should be avoided but sodium from food sources is

probably needed, a concentration gradient needs to be maintained.

Sodium flows into the cell, flowing down the concentration gradient.

As the sodium goes into the cell it carries along other nutrients

that the cell needs. Sodium even is involved in the movement of

glucose into the cell.

The sodium that moves into the cell is then pumped out by the Na-K

ATPase pump. If, due to impaired metabolism, the cell is unable to

fully pump out the sodium as fast as it flows in, then an increase

in intracellular sodium will result over time. It is not that

cancer cells like sodium so much as they don't have the energy to

get rid of it.

Cancer cells rely upon glycolysis, an anaerobic process, to produce

energy (a very miniscule amount of energy compared to what is

produced via the aerobic processes inside the mitochondria). I

think that to help reverse cancers, increasing metabolism to help

restore intracellular balance is important. As is providing the

body with nutrients, avoiding substances that may increase the toxic

load on the system, and to not worry. The stress from worry burns

up a lot of nutrients that are better used by the body to help

restore health.

All the best,

Jim

>

> >Also I forgot to mention that FIR photons increase the production

of

> >enyzmes in the body that help the body to eliminate cancer.

> >

> >Blessings

> >Donna

> >http://www.excellentthings.com

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >OxyPLUS is an unmoderated e-ring dealing with oxidative

therapies, and other alternative self-help subjects.

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Carolyn, It is always nice to see posts from you. I always glean

some information from them. On the fir/enzyme issue, I am quoting a

doctor. I have no idea where he got his information. If I can find out,

I will. It may be as simple as you stated below. Heat increases

enzymes. And I didn't say that enzymes eliminate cancer. I said

enzymes help the body to eliminate cancer. I have read that many

places. Since, as you say, it reduces the toxic load on the body.

This, of course, reduces the load on the immune system which enables it

to work on things like cancer. Isn't that part of the whole concept of

eating live enzyme rich food?

Just for clarity I wasn't saying this was how fir eliminates cancer from

the body. I had already stated many other ways it works, such as the

heat, and the increased macrophage activity and increased circulation,

etc. Just remembered later that Dr. Tate, an MD had mentioned that it

increased enzymes that helped eliminate cancer. don't know which enzymes

or how they worked. Perhaps on the cell wall. Just guessing because I

don't know.

Also, since this is the oxyPLUS list and Jim's intentions were for open

discussion of anything relating to health, it is definitely on topic for

this list.

Blessings

Donna

http://www.excellentthings.com

Carolyn Bormann wrote:

> First of all, we're off topic for this list...

> Next, Wow, Donna. This is quite a statement!

> I'm a Naturopath and Cancer Hyperthermist and have used FIR and other

> energies over the last 15 years on a clinical

> daily basis and I'd like to see your research citations for such a

> statement... maybe it is terminology but what you're stating here is

> incorrect...

>

> Where did you learn this from?

> Yes, heat always speeds up enzyme reactions, but increasing metabolic

> enzyme PRODUCTION by FIR photons is a guess at best. If you want to

> understand how heat helps the body rid itself of cancer, the mechanisms

> are very well known (the energy causes the water around the cells to

> vibrate very fast, producing intracelular heat --a fever-- which in turn

> damages proteins and shuts down the S-phase of the mitotic process and

> acidifies tumors). We can do this biochemically with intracellular

> hyperthermia using uncouplers as well as externally with Far Infrared,

> Microwaves, etc.

> Production of enzymes to eliminate cancer is really not the mechanism

> although enzymes certainly are needed to help the liver and kidneys

> remove the debris, no question...we always supplement our cancer pts.

> with cultured and fibrinolytic enzymes...

>

> I'd still be interested in your citations?...

>

> Dr.Bormann

> **********************

>

> CountryGirl wrote:

>

> >Also I forgot to mention that FIR photons increase the production of

> >enyzmes in the body that help the body to eliminate cancer.

> >

> >Blessings

> >Donna

> >http://www.excellentthings.com

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >OxyPLUS is an unmoderated e-ring dealing with oxidative therapies,

> and other alternative self-help subjects.

> >

> >THERE IS NO MEDICAL ADVICE HERE!

> >

> >This list is the 1st Amendment in action. The things you will find

> here are for information and research purposes only. We are people

> sharing information we believe in. If you act on ideas found here, you

> do so at your own risk. Self-help requires intelligence, common

> sense, and the ability to take responsibility for your own actions. By

> joining the list you agree to hold yourself FULLY responsible FOR

> yourself. Do not use any ideas found here without consulting a

> medical professional, unless you are a researcher or health care

> provider.

> >

> >You can unsubscribe via e-mail by sending A NEW e-mail to the

> following address - NOT TO THE OXYPLUS LIST! -

> >DO NOT USE REPLY BUTTON & DO NOT PUT THIS IN THE SUBJECT LINE or BODY

> of the message! :

> >

> > oxyplus-unsubscribeegroups

> >

> > oxyplus-normalonelist - switch your subscription to normal

> mode.

> >

[Guest guest]

<waiting for saul's debunk of the sodium pump theory>

and this discussion is FAR from off topic