Re: I consider myself proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis C sufferers

February 26, 2006

I have NOT seen ANYONE attack you or anyone else,,, Rath <kdrath@...> wrote: Well hon, people aren't attacking you--- Jackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote:> Hon,, I havent seen anyone get mad,, > > Rath <kdrath@...> wrote: I find it odd> that people get so mad at things that> aren't even what is being said. No one I thought was> disputing that WEstern meds can be dangerous etc.-> it> seems even to down on eastern meds it makes everyone> jump on the bandwagon and attack WEstern meds- but> if> someone attacks western meds then it doesn't make> people jump on the bandwagon and attack east. I> think> people are seeing it all wrong- I never claimed> there> weren't problems with Western

medicine- I have said> this ten thousand times- can't there be a discussion> about Eastern medicine without it being a compare> and> contrast thing? that is what makes it an angered> discussion. It is not one or the other. Actually you> can sue the fda (it is done all of the time) you can> sue meds and you can have them become permanently> off> of the shelves. it is actually more difficult to sue> herbs b/c they say this is not proven...that is> there> safety net and why you can't sue them for claims> that> they made-> > --- Jackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote:> > > The same can be said for any western medicines> too. > > > > YOU said THAT RIGHT... just look how awful it was> > for Liz!!! SHE had to stop! IF she had had those> > kind of symptoms with an alternative tx,, she>

could> > have either sued the company that manufacturers it> > or could have gotten the FDA to remove it ,,, > > > > anne <kanga2@...> wrote: > > Please don't misunderstand my post. I'm neither> for> > or against any particular form of treatment. I'm> of> > the opinion that if it works for you, that's> > wonderful, if it doesn't, there are always> > alternatives. I would hope that by now, people> > arent' just putting things into their bodies on> > blind faith alone. I would hope that people are> now> > asking questions and reading inserts and> researching> > for themselves. > > > > The reason I replied to the way I did was> > because for him, Chinese medicine is

working well.> > > That's not to say it will work as well or at all> for> > everyone. The same can be said for any western> > medicines too.> > > > anne> > Re: I consider> > myself proof that herbal remedies DO help> hepatitis> > C sufferers> > > > > > This is all great but you know this issue isn't> > black> > or white. I used to be all for herbs and even> > annoyed> > at people who couldn't understand the truth about> > them> > etc. However- now I have quickly

changed my mind> for> > several reasons. First of all- many herbs can be> > deadly - if you are taking them and need an> > emergency> > transplant certain herbs will contribute to> > rejecting> > that transplant. Others have deadly affects with> > combinations of western medicine- for the drug> > companies- well you should be happy that we have> an> > FDA b/c other countries that don't are largely at> > risk> > from the foods and medicines that they have which> go> > untested. It's not all 'poor' herb companies b/c> the> > richer drug companies can test their product and> the> > herbs can't...In fact the drug companies that pay> > for> > the FDA approval at least have to list the known> > side> > affects and it even explains what combinations can> > be>

> lethal..where the herb companies can continue> > advertising their product (many times falsely) and> > they are not responsible if you are at risk or if> > something happens to you. Many don't want to have> > the> > expensive tests done b/c their product doesn't> > actually work and they don't want to have to show> > that> > to people. I am not saying this to be against your> > herbs but people should get the other side b/c> there> > has been some biases on some parts of you all-> > things> > in this world aren't always separated into 'good'> or> > 'bad' there are grey areas...and a lot of drug> > companies aren't these evil doers trying to get> only> > your money....many go out of business for the> > investments in their drugs and they (even with the> > high costs) go our of business b/c

of the needed> > tests> > and the fda approval etc. This takes years and it> > doesn't suggest that we see all that's going on.> We> > see a drug is expensive so we automatically assume> > that it means scam. This is hardly the case. Herbs> > can't back up their claims so the people are at> > risk.> > Thanks, > > > > --- anne <kanga2@...> wrote:> > > > > LOL! I just *knew* wouldn't be able to> let> > > that post pass! Great, well thought out reply> > there> > > > > > anne> > > > > > It's a pleasure having you join in our> > conversations. We hope you have found the support> > you need with us. > > > > If you are using email for your posts, for easy> > access to our group,

just click the link--> > Hepatitis C/> > > > Happy Posting > > > > > > > >

February 26, 2006

I think we all by now know that interferon type drugs are dangerous , that's the beauty of having an FDA . The dangers and side effects are given with the meds , but with herbal meds there is no one to regulate the safety and efficiency of them

Re: I consider> myself proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis> C sufferers> > > I am sorry anne, I didn't take it that way- I> guess I just believe that this post is for> gathering> information so we all can sift through it and> learn> about hep c. I have learned a lot from all of your> testaments as well as all of the discussions and> studies. I am very thankful to everyone and I am> sincerely saying that I don't mean to debate-> sometimes its sad that I am called on for arguing> or> what not when I was just having a different> opinion> and trying to show all of the views of the members> so> we all can make choices with each others help. I> appreciate the help from all of you and I just> wish my> attempts to present my view wasn't (this isn't> directed at anyone especially you anne- just> expressing this to the group) always construed as> negative or disagreeable. I just believe that info> is> power and that when one side is being shown for> days> that this isn't really helping others necessarily.> So> I invite disagreement b/c we all deserve all of> the> aspects...so please everyone see that I am just> having> an opinion and sometimes I will personally attack> after I tried to make it non personal. I am human> so> please forgive me but I don't think that having> info> presented is debating, it is responding to that> with> anger that is debating. Sorry if I offended you> anne, thanks everyone for being out there in> cyber> space b/c I have needed all of you even when I was> silent- I hope there is a cure some day for all of> us> - no matter what that cure ends up looking like I> wish> it for all of you :-)__________________________________________________

February 26, 2006

Guess what Jackie , my viral load is so low the test they used couldnt detect the numbers.So Daymon wants me to continue the tx for as long as I can . This treatment is aweful but it looks like I may make it to undectable if I just hang in there a little longer .

Re: I consider myself proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis C sufferers

This is all great but you know this issue isn't blackor white. I used to be all for herbs and even annoyedat people who couldn't understand the truth about themetc. However- now I have quickly changed my mind forseveral reasons. First of all- many herbs can bedeadly - if you are taking them and need an emergencytransplant certain herbs will contribute to rejectingthat transplant. Others have deadly affects withcombinations of western medicine- for the drugcompanies- well you should be happy that we have anFDA b/c other countries that don't are largely at riskfrom the foods and medicines that they have which gountested. It's not all 'poor' herb companies b/c thericher drug companies can test their product and theherbs can't...In fact the drug companies that pay forthe FDA approval at least have to list the known sideaffects and it even explains what combinations can belethal..where the herb companies can continueadvertising their product (many times falsely) andthey are not responsible if you are at risk or ifsomething happens to you. Many don't want to have theexpensive tests done b/c their product doesn'tactually work and they don't want to have to show thatto people. I am not saying this to be against yourherbs but people should get the other side b/c therehas been some biases on some parts of you all- thingsin this world aren't always separated into 'good' or'bad' there are grey areas...and a lot of drugcompanies aren't these evil doers trying to get onlyyour money....many go out of business for theinvestments in their drugs and they (even with thehigh costs) go our of business b/c of the needed testsand the fda approval etc. This takes years and itdoesn't suggest that we see all that's going on. Wesee a drug is expensive so we automatically assumethat it means scam. This is hardly the case. Herbscan't back up their claims so the people are at risk.Thanks, --- anne <kanga2@...> wrote:> LOL! I just *knew* wouldn't be able to let> that post pass! Great, well thought out reply there> > anneJackie

February 26, 2006

Very good point

Re: Re: I consider myself proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis C sufferers

You don't need to shout but I am sorry- the drugcompanies don't have everything to do with testing.There are universities and plenty of other ways to getmoney to investigate efficacy. Good scientists come upwith a hypothesis and disprove or prove this. If itwere not a billion dollar industry I might see whereyou are coming from but herbs, herbalists and Chinesedoctors are a billion dollar industry so I can't eatwhat you are saying--- Jackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote:> Yes you are right,, they DO need more testing,, but> as long as the drug companies are in charge of what> gets out there ,, they will NOT be testing in any> significant way as it would be giving their money> away .. and most if not all of the tests that show> negative effects of "alternative" meds are run BY> the PHARMYS OR the FDA which have a VESTED interest> in the PHARMIES.....UNTIL they take the MONEY out of> things,, dont expect much to change..There are good> and bad in both western and alternative> treatments... just look at ALL the side effects of> PEGGED INF,, for example, and IF you saw these kinds> of side effects with a NATURAL substance, IT WOULD> BE PULLED, and the docs would NOT BE able to> prescribe it,, IF IT WERE NATURAL.... but because> its from the pharmies,, they allow it.. and> sometimes the treatments ARE worse than the> disease... > just my 2 cents,, not trying to make anyone mad...> > brain_child846 <peter_tocco@...> wrote:> > Science is a way of verifying information and> > everything you say is your word. > > Amen to scientific verification, for herbs or drugs.> The problem is, > some people have closed their mind to one or the> other. When > investigating the unknown, the outcome is> unpredictable. > > a bunch of herbs out there that> > don't have a lot of side effects there you go> > again...what proof? simple things such as licorice> do> > have side effects. > > Licorice root in particular is one herb with> virtually no side > effects used in moderate amounts. Licorice root is> unique and stands > by itself as one of the great adjutant herbs, that> is, it helps > improve the efficacy of almost any herbal formula> and is thus a part > of nearly all formulas. The trials showing potential> harmful side > effects were done with dose levels way in excess of> amounts people > would take for tonic effects. I'm not sure the dose> level used in > the study that showed licorice root reducing liver> cancer by 50% in > hep c patients, if I remember correctly. I could> cite the study if > you like. > > Medical research is something to be proud of. Herbal> traditions are > part of our human heritage, also something to be> proud of. We need > more testing and probably a better way to classify> alternative > treatments, partly to protect people. One cardinal> rule about herbs > is that more is not necessarily better. Until> herbalists are more > available, people will end up taking their chances.> I hate to see > some companies making sensational claims about herbs> and raking in > millions. Something is wrong there. I used to brew> my own Chinese > formulas, which is totally different but still> something that needs > more testing.> > Okay, that's all I'm going to say about herbs! Nice> discussion, > though.> > Pete> > > > > > > It's a pleasure having you join in our> conversations. We hope you have found the support> you need with us. > > If you are using email for your posts, for easy> access to our group, just click the link--> Hepatitis C/> > Happy Posting > > > >

February 26, 2006

OUTSTANDING LIZ,, WHOOO HOOOO,, OH MY GOD! I AM THRILLED, AND I WANT YOU TO STAY HYDRATED THIS TIME,, NO MORE BARFING,, LOL,, IM GONNA WRITE MY COUSIN RIGHT NOW AND GET SOME IV FLUIDS FOR YOU,, IM GONNA MAKE SURE YOU MAKE IT THIS TIME,, DANGIT! LOVE YOU !! SORRY IM YELLING,, I WISH I HAD SEEN THIS EARLIER!!! OMG!!!elizabethnv1 <elizabethnv1@...> wrote: Guess what Jackie , my viral load is so low the test they used couldnt detect the numbers.So Daymon wants me to continue the tx for as long as I can . This treatment is aweful but it looks like I may make it to undectable if I just hang in there a little longer . Re: I consider myself proof that

herbal remedies DO help hepatitis C sufferers This is all great but you know this issue isn't blackor white. I used to be all for herbs and even annoyedat people who couldn't understand the truth about themetc. However- now I have quickly changed my mind forseveral reasons. First of all- many herbs can bedeadly - if you are taking them and need an emergencytransplant certain herbs will contribute to rejectingthat transplant. Others have deadly affects withcombinations of western medicine- for the drugcompanies- well you should be happy that we have anFDA b/c other countries that don't are largely at riskfrom the foods and medicines that they have which gountested. It's not all 'poor' herb companies b/c thericher drug companies can test their product and theherbs can't...In fact the drug companies that pay forthe FDA approval at least have to list the known sideaffects and it even explains what

combinations can belethal..where the herb companies can continueadvertising their product (many times falsely) andthey are not responsible if you are at risk or ifsomething happens to you. Many don't want to have theexpensive tests done b/c their product doesn'tactually work and they don't want to have to show thatto people. I am not saying this to be against yourherbs but people should get the other side b/c therehas been some biases on some parts of you all- thingsin this world aren't always separated into 'good' or'bad' there are grey areas...and a lot of drugcompanies aren't these evil doers trying to get onlyyour money....many go out of business for theinvestments in their drugs and they (even with thehigh costs) go our of business b/c of the needed testsand the fda approval etc. This takes years and itdoesn't suggest that we see all that's going on. Wesee a drug is expensive so we automatically

assumethat it means scam. This is hardly the case. Herbscan't back up their claims so the people are at risk.Thanks, --- anne <kanga2@...> wrote:> LOL! I just *knew* wouldn't be able to let> that post pass! Great, well thought out reply there> > anneJackie Jackie

February 26, 2006

Girl you get me the IV fluids and I will owe you for life ...lol

Re: I consider myself proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis C sufferers

This is all great but you know this issue isn't blackor white. I used to be all for herbs and even annoyedat people who couldn't understand the truth about themetc. However- now I have quickly changed my mind forseveral reasons. First of all- many herbs can bedeadly - if you are taking them and need an emergencytransplant certain herbs will contribute to rejectingthat transplant. Others have deadly affects withcombinations of western medicine- for the drugcompanies- well you should be happy that we have anFDA b/c other countries that don't are largely at riskfrom the foods and medicines that they have which gountested. It's not all 'poor' herb companies b/c thericher drug companies can test their product and theherbs can't...In fact the drug companies that pay forthe FDA approval at least have to list the known sideaffects and it even explains what combinations can belethal..where the herb companies can continueadvertising their product (many times falsely) andthey are not responsible if you are at risk or ifsomething happens to you. Many don't want to have theexpensive tests done b/c their product doesn'tactually work and they don't want to have to show thatto people. I am not saying this to be against yourherbs but people should get the other side b/c therehas been some biases on some parts of you all- thingsin this world aren't always separated into 'good' or'bad' there are grey areas...and a lot of drugcompanies aren't these evil doers trying to get onlyyour money....many go out of business for theinvestments in their drugs and they (even with thehigh costs) go our of business b/c of the needed testsand the fda approval etc. This takes years and itdoesn't suggest that we see all that's going on. Wesee a drug is expensive so we automatically assumethat it means scam. This is hardly the case. Herbscan't back up their claims so the people are at risk.Thanks, --- anne <kanga2@...> wrote:> LOL! I just *knew* wouldn't be able to let> that post pass! Great, well thought out reply there> > anneJackie Jackie

February 26, 2006

I am not shouting,, elizabethnv1 <elizabethnv1@...> wrote: Very good point Re: Re: I consider myself proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis C sufferers You don't need to shout but I am sorry- the drugcompanies don't have everything to do with testing.There are universities and plenty of other ways to getmoney to investigate efficacy. Good scientists come upwith a hypothesis and disprove or prove this. If itwere not a billion dollar industry I might see whereyou are coming from but herbs, herbalists and Chinesedoctors are a billion dollar industry so I can't eatwhat you are saying--- Jackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote:> Yes you are right,, they DO need more testing,, but> as long as the drug companies are in charge of what> gets out there ,, they will NOT be testing in any> significant way as it would be giving their money> away .. and most if not all of the tests that show> negative

effects of "alternative" meds are run BY> the PHARMYS OR the FDA which have a VESTED interest> in the PHARMIES.....UNTIL they take the MONEY out of> things,, dont expect much to change..There are good> and bad in both western and alternative> treatments... just look at ALL the side effects of> PEGGED INF,, for example, and IF you saw these kinds> of side effects with a NATURAL substance, IT WOULD> BE PULLED, and the docs would NOT BE able to> prescribe it,, IF IT WERE NATURAL.... but because> its from the pharmies,, they allow it.. and> sometimes the treatments ARE worse than the> disease... > just my 2 cents,, not trying to make anyone mad...> > brain_child846 <peter_tocco@...> wrote:> > Science is a way of verifying information and> > everything you say is your word. > > Amen to scientific verification,

for herbs or drugs.> The problem is, > some people have closed their mind to one or the> other. When > investigating the unknown, the outcome is> unpredictable. > > a bunch of herbs out there that> > don't have a lot of side effects there you go> > again...what proof? simple things such as licorice> do> > have side effects. > > Licorice root in particular is one herb with> virtually no side > effects used in moderate amounts. Licorice root is> unique and stands > by itself as one of the great adjutant herbs, that> is, it helps > improve the efficacy of almost any herbal formula> and is thus a part > of nearly all formulas. The trials showing potential> harmful side > effects were done with dose levels way in excess of> amounts people > would take for tonic effects. I'm not sure the dose> level

used in > the study that showed licorice root reducing liver> cancer by 50% in > hep c patients, if I remember correctly. I could> cite the study if > you like. > > Medical research is something to be proud of. Herbal> traditions are > part of our human heritage, also something to be> proud of. We need > more testing and probably a better way to classify> alternative > treatments, partly to protect people. One cardinal> rule about herbs > is that more is not necessarily better. Until> herbalists are more > available, people will end up taking their chances.> I hate to see > some companies making sensational claims about herbs> and raking in > millions. Something is wrong there. I used to brew> my own Chinese > formulas, which is totally different but still> something that needs > more testing.> >

Okay, that's all I'm going to say about herbs! Nice> discussion, > though.> > Pete> > > > > > > It's a pleasure having you join in our> conversations. We hope you have found the support> you need with us. > > If you are using email for your posts, for easy> access to our group, just click the link--> Hepatitis C/> > Happy Posting > > > >

February 26, 2006

Whos shouting ???

Re: Re: I consider myself proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis C sufferers

You don't need to shout but I am sorry- the drugcompanies don't have everything to do with testing.There are universities and plenty of other ways to getmoney to investigate efficacy. Good scientists come upwith a hypothesis and disprove or prove this. If itwere not a billion dollar industry I might see whereyou are coming from but herbs, herbalists and Chinesedoctors are a billion dollar industry so I can't eatwhat you are saying--- Jackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote:> Yes you are right,, they DO need more testing,, but> as long as the drug companies are in charge of what> gets out there ,, they will NOT be testing in any> significant way as it would be giving their money> away .. and most if not all of the tests that show> negative effects of "alternative" meds are run BY> the PHARMYS OR the FDA which have a VESTED interest> in the PHARMIES.....UNTIL they take the MONEY out of> things,, dont expect much to change..There are good> and bad in both western and alternative> treatments... just look at ALL the side effects of> PEGGED INF,, for example, and IF you saw these kinds> of side effects with a NATURAL substance, IT WOULD> BE PULLED, and the docs would NOT BE able to> prescribe it,, IF IT WERE NATURAL.... but because> its from the pharmies,, they allow it.. and> sometimes the treatments ARE worse than the> disease... > just my 2 cents,, not trying to make anyone mad...> > brain_child846 <peter_tocco@...> wrote:> > Science is a way of verifying information and> > everything you say is your word. > > Amen to scientific verification, for herbs or drugs.> The problem is, > some people have closed their mind to one or the> other. When > investigating the unknown, the outcome is> unpredictable. > > a bunch of herbs out there that> > don't have a lot of side effects there you go> > again...what proof? simple things such as licorice> do> > have side effects. > > Licorice root in particular is one herb with> virtually no side > effects used in moderate amounts. Licorice root is> unique and stands > by itself as one of the great adjutant herbs, that> is, it helps > improve the efficacy of almost any herbal formula> and is thus a part > of nearly all formulas. The trials showing potential> harmful side > effects were done with dose levels way in excess of> amounts people > would take for tonic effects. I'm not sure the dose> level used in > the study that showed licorice root reducing liver> cancer by 50% in > hep c patients, if I remember correctly. I could> cite the study if > you like. > > Medical research is something to be proud of. Herbal> traditions are > part of our human heritage, also something to be> proud of. We need > more testing and probably a better way to classify> alternative > treatments, partly to protect people. One cardinal> rule about herbs > is that more is not necessarily better. Until> herbalists are more > available, people will end up taking their chances.> I hate to see > some companies making sensational claims about herbs> and raking in > millions. Something is wrong there. I used to brew> my own Chinese > formulas, which is totally different but still> something that needs > more testing.> > Okay, that's all I'm going to say about herbs! Nice> discussion, > though.> > Pete> > > > > > > It's a pleasure having you join in our> conversations. We hope you have found the support> you need with us. > > If you are using email for your posts, for easy> access to our group, just click the link--> Hepatitis C/> > Happy Posting > > > >

February 26, 2006

Whos shouting ???

Re: Re: I consider myself proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis C sufferers

You don't need to shout but I am sorry- the drugcompanies don't have everything to do with testing.There are universities and plenty of other ways to getmoney to investigate efficacy. Good scientists come upwith a hypothesis and disprove or prove this. If itwere not a billion dollar industry I might see whereyou are coming from but herbs, herbalists and Chinesedoctors are a billion dollar industry so I can't eatwhat you are saying--- Jackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote:> Yes you are right,, they DO need more testing,, but> as long as the drug companies are in charge of what> gets out there ,, they will NOT be testing in any> significant way as it would be giving their money> away .. and most if not all of the tests that show> negative effects of "alternative" meds are run BY> the PHARMYS OR the FDA which have a VESTED interest> in the PHARMIES.....UNTIL they take the MONEY out of> things,, dont expect much to change..There are good> and bad in both western and alternative> treatments... just look at ALL the side effects of> PEGGED INF,, for example, and IF you saw these kinds> of side effects with a NATURAL substance, IT WOULD> BE PULLED, and the docs would NOT BE able to> prescribe it,, IF IT WERE NATURAL.... but because> its from the pharmies,, they allow it.. and> sometimes the treatments ARE worse than the> disease... > just my 2 cents,, not trying to make anyone mad...> > brain_child846 <peter_tocco@...> wrote:> > Science is a way of verifying information and> > everything you say is your word. > > Amen to scientific verification, for herbs or drugs.> The problem is, > some people have closed their mind to one or the> other. When > investigating the unknown, the outcome is> unpredictable. > > a bunch of herbs out there that> > don't have a lot of side effects there you go> > again...what proof? simple things such as licorice> do> > have side effects. > > Licorice root in particular is one herb with> virtually no side > effects used in moderate amounts. Licorice root is> unique and stands > by itself as one of the great adjutant herbs, that> is, it helps > improve the efficacy of almost any herbal formula> and is thus a part > of nearly all formulas. The trials showing potential> harmful side > effects were done with dose levels way in excess of> amounts people > would take for tonic effects. I'm not sure the dose> level used in > the study that showed licorice root reducing liver> cancer by 50% in > hep c patients, if I remember correctly. I could> cite the study if > you like. > > Medical research is something to be proud of. Herbal> traditions are > part of our human heritage, also something to be> proud of. We need > more testing and probably a better way to classify> alternative > treatments, partly to protect people. One cardinal> rule about herbs > is that more is not necessarily better. Until> herbalists are more > available, people will end up taking their chances.> I hate to see > some companies making sensational claims about herbs> and raking in > millions. Something is wrong there. I used to brew> my own Chinese > formulas, which is totally different but still> something that needs > more testing.> > Okay, that's all I'm going to say about herbs! Nice> discussion, > though.> > Pete> > > > > > > It's a pleasure having you join in our> conversations. We hope you have found the support> you need with us. > > If you are using email for your posts, for easy> access to our group, just click the link--> Hepatitis C/> > Happy Posting > > > >

February 26, 2006

I WILL GET IT,, come hell or high water,, I WILL GET ITelizabethnv1 <elizabethnv1@...> wrote: Girl you get me the IV fluids and I will owe you for life ...lol Re: I consider myself proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis C sufferers This is all great but you know this issue isn't blackor white. I used to be all for herbs and even annoyedat people who couldn't understand the truth about themetc. However- now I have quickly changed my mind forseveral reasons. First of all- many herbs can bedeadly - if you are taking them and need an emergencytransplant certain herbs will contribute to rejectingthat transplant. Others have deadly affects withcombinations of western medicine- for the drugcompanies- well you should be happy that we have anFDA b/c other countries that don't are largely at riskfrom the foods and medicines that

they have which gountested. It's not all 'poor' herb companies b/c thericher drug companies can test their product and theherbs can't...In fact the drug companies that pay forthe FDA approval at least have to list the known sideaffects and it even explains what combinations can belethal..where the herb companies can continueadvertising their product (many times falsely) andthey are not responsible if you are at risk or ifsomething happens to you. Many don't want to have theexpensive tests done b/c their product doesn'tactually work and they don't want to have to show thatto people. I am not saying this to be against yourherbs but people should get the other side b/c therehas been some biases on some parts of you all- thingsin this world aren't always separated into 'good' or'bad' there are grey areas...and a lot of drugcompanies aren't these evil doers trying to get onlyyour money....many go out of business for

theinvestments in their drugs and they (even with thehigh costs) go our of business b/c of the needed testsand the fda approval etc. This takes years and itdoesn't suggest that we see all that's going on. Wesee a drug is expensive so we automatically assumethat it means scam. This is hardly the case. Herbscan't back up their claims so the people are at risk.Thanks, --- anne <kanga2@...> wrote:> LOL! I just *knew* wouldn't be able to let> that post pass! Great, well thought out reply there> > anneJackie Jackie Jackie

February 26, 2006

That would be the ticket for me , lol so when you and coming to see us again ? Its starting to get warm enough to swim again and have BBQ's

Re: I consider myself proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis C sufferers

This is all great but you know this issue isn't blackor white. I used to be all for herbs and even annoyedat people who couldn't understand the truth about themetc. However- now I have quickly changed my mind forseveral reasons. First of all- many herbs can bedeadly - if you are taking them and need an emergencytransplant certain herbs will contribute to rejectingthat transplant. Others have deadly affects withcombinations of western medicine- for the drugcompanies- well you should be happy that we have anFDA b/c other countries that don't are largely at riskfrom the foods and medicines that they have which gountested. It's not all 'poor' herb companies b/c thericher drug companies can test their product and theherbs can't...In fact the drug companies that pay forthe FDA approval at least have to list the known sideaffects and it even explains what combinations can belethal..where the herb companies can continueadvertising their product (many times falsely) andthey are not responsible if you are at risk or ifsomething happens to you. Many don't want to have theexpensive tests done b/c their product doesn'tactually work and they don't want to have to show thatto people. I am not saying this to be against yourherbs but people should get the other side b/c therehas been some biases on some parts of you all- thingsin this world aren't always separated into 'good' or'bad' there are grey areas...and a lot of drugcompanies aren't these evil doers trying to get onlyyour money....many go out of business for theinvestments in their drugs and they (even with thehigh costs) go our of business b/c of the needed testsand the fda approval etc. This takes years and itdoesn't suggest that we see all that's going on. Wesee a drug is expensive so we automatically assumethat it means scam. This is hardly the case. Herbscan't back up their claims so the people are at risk.Thanks, --- anne <kanga2@...> wrote:> LOL! I just *knew* wouldn't be able to let> that post pass! Great, well thought out reply there> > anneJackie Jackie Jackie

February 26, 2006

You don't need to shout but I am sorry Dylan thought I was shouting,, I think cuz I USE caps when IM talking passionately about something,, lol,, elizabethnv1 <elizabethnv1@...> wrote: Whos shouting ??? Re: Re: I consider myself proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis C sufferers You don't need to shout but I am sorry- the drugcompanies don't have everything to do with testing.There are universities and plenty of other ways to getmoney to investigate efficacy. Good scientists come upwith a hypothesis and disprove or prove this. If itwere not a billion dollar industry I might see whereyou are coming from but

herbs, herbalists and Chinesedoctors are a billion dollar industry so I can't eatwhat you are saying--- Jackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote:> Yes you are right,, they DO need more testing,, but> as long as the drug companies are in charge of what> gets out there ,, they will NOT be testing in any> significant way as it would be giving their money> away .. and most if not all of the tests that show> negative effects of "alternative" meds are run BY> the PHARMYS OR the FDA which have a VESTED interest> in the PHARMIES.....UNTIL they take the MONEY out of> things,, dont expect much to change..There are good> and bad in both western and alternative> treatments... just look at ALL the side effects of> PEGGED INF,, for example, and IF you saw these kinds> of side effects with a NATURAL substance, IT WOULD> BE PULLED, and the docs would NOT BE able to>

prescribe it,, IF IT WERE NATURAL.... but because> its from the pharmies,, they allow it.. and> sometimes the treatments ARE worse than the> disease... > just my 2 cents,, not trying to make anyone mad...> > brain_child846 <peter_tocco@...> wrote:> > Science is a way of verifying information and> > everything you say is your word. > > Amen to scientific verification, for herbs or drugs.> The problem is, > some people have closed their mind to one or the> other. When > investigating the unknown, the outcome is> unpredictable. > > a bunch of herbs out there that> > don't have a lot of side effects there you go> > again...what proof? simple things such as licorice> do> > have side effects. > > Licorice root in particular is one herb with> virtually no side >

effects used in moderate amounts. Licorice root is> unique and stands > by itself as one of the great adjutant herbs, that> is, it helps > improve the efficacy of almost any herbal formula> and is thus a part > of nearly all formulas. The trials showing potential> harmful side > effects were done with dose levels way in excess of> amounts people > would take for tonic effects. I'm not sure the dose> level used in > the study that showed licorice root reducing liver> cancer by 50% in > hep c patients, if I remember correctly. I could> cite the study if > you like. > > Medical research is something to be proud of. Herbal> traditions are > part of our human heritage, also something to be> proud of. We need > more testing and probably a better way to classify> alternative > treatments, partly to protect people. One

cardinal> rule about herbs > is that more is not necessarily better. Until> herbalists are more > available, people will end up taking their chances.> I hate to see > some companies making sensational claims about herbs> and raking in > millions. Something is wrong there. I used to brew> my own Chinese > formulas, which is totally different but still> something that needs > more testing.> > Okay, that's all I'm going to say about herbs! Nice> discussion, > though.> > Pete> > > > > > > It's a pleasure having you join in our> conversations. We hope you have found the support> you need with us. > > If you are using email for your posts, for easy> access to our group, just click the link--> Hepatitis C/> > Happy Posting > > > >

February 26, 2006

Dylan... it seems I made the same mistake once before, probably because you using what looks like Rath's email address. I'm sorry to have forgotten. I forget lots of things. Herbs are not drugs that are produced in controlled settings like a lab. It would be impossible to quantify the amount of the active ingredient in a given portion of most any herb, because they can be grown in different places and circumstances. The big drug companies don't pay for FDA approval because they want to be sure their drugs are safe. They pay because they have to! The FDA does not require the same of suppliments it considers safe, which is what the FDA considers most herbs to be. The acronym FDA stands for Food and Drug Administration. Foods do not require the same warning lables as drugs. But they do test foods for public safety, and they have given thier ok to every suppliment and herb sold in

America. Naturapaths are making a comeback in America. If you talk to one or read about the history of this field of medicine, you will probably find out how the AMA brought about the near extinction of alternative medicine in America. We can have peace. But while I have tried to post reason, you have called my "word" questionable, and accused me of fabrication and twisting your words. That's not nice! I only countered your claims with logic, not slander. I questioned the study mentioned in the original post, and agreed that the findings were inconclusive. I showed why I felt the study was flawed. Nowhere did I make remark to your character. Goodday. Eat herbs, sleep well, be real! Rath <kdrath@...> wrote: Not coerced just not paying to have their medicineproved that it worked. Anyways- we know how we feeland I want you to have good health and others. Wecould go on and on and on so I want to thank you forengaging and I may seem like I come across a certainway but that is where we become lost in translationb/c of the language of email....so thank you for yourtime and I am appreciative of your thoughts and ofyour knowledge and I think this could go on but Iwould rather hug and say it's nice to have a debatewith an equal hepper who is searching like me foranswers and good health for others. Take care- and Iam a girl named Dylan :-)--- Hunter wrote:> You are trying to tell me that the producers of> herbs in America bought, or somehow coerced the FDA> into looking the other way?> G'night .> > Rath wrote:> Not

really b/c who draws the line of> natural?> and there are studies on milk and we even know it's> b/c of ecoli in the large intestine which breaks> lactose sugars down for you if you cannot break it> down with an enzyme in the duodenum. The fact is> there> aren't warnings for herbs in our country and this is> what is real. No studies or no warnings. fact. the> FDA> does think they are dangerous but the herb producers> want them out of the story. so they are out of the> story. this is a fact. people get offended if people> say they are dangerous b/c they say we are out to> sabotage what is good and natural. but if western> drugs are bad for us it's not wrong to explain this> to> people (with scientific studies mind you) if they> kill> people many (not all not wanting that debate) they> are> taken off the shelf unlike the herbs.

fact.> > --- Hunter wrote:> > > I'm just going to copy and paste this, 'cause I've> > said it too many times before. ", I have said> > many times that herbs, and all other medicines> > should only be used with proper supervision." By> > your reasoning every box of salt should have a> > warning label that eating too much can be harmful,> > or every box of baking soda have a warning not to> > eat this and drink vinegar. Pencils and pens can> be> > deadly. Should we have government agencies> spending> > tax dollars to protect us? If herbs and dietary> > supplements are dangerous, why doesn't the FDA> think> > so? The same reason they don't think vinegar is> > dangerous. Milk is dangerous if you are allergic. > > The same with eggs, wheat, and.... oh forget it!> > You can construe that

cocaine is natural, or even> > LSD, since it naturally occures in the brain. But> I> > think you and everyone else here knows neither> > cocaine nor LSD is natural as I use the word.> > > > Rath wrote:> > That's great what you have to say but I didn't say> > misused or abused. Some people simply use them as> > the> > bottle says and this is enough to be considered> > misuse> > b/c there is not indication that there are deadly> > side> > effects when combined with other herbs or> medicines.> > In a great world many people would do there> research> > but this is a product being sold on the market> that> > has beautiful packaging so you grab that option> over> > another. Science is a way of verifying information> > and> > everything you say is your word. I

have seen> claims> > that things work but these are mostly on sites> that> > are trying to sell their products. Just because> > things> > are 'natural' doesn't mean that they are safe for> > our> > bodies. Poisonous berries are natural, cocaine is> > natural, lava is natural. I am not disputing the> use> > but it is unfair to say that science isn't for our> > benefit. If my father is diagnosed with cancer I> > would> > rather use something that has scientifically> proven> > to> > work rather than some claims of herbs here or> there.> > Even deadly western medicine has worked on a few> > people but that isn't enough to verify that it> > should> > be used. But you could argue what is natural b/c> > everything on this earth is natural. every> chemical> >

compound that is combined with science is natural.> > Changing elements and rearranging the chemistry is> > still natural. I am only saying this not for you> who> > is already convinced but for the other silent> > members> > who should have each side of the story so they can> > think both sides through and make a choice that is> > good for them (whether this be herbs or western> > medicine). Well to respond to another one of your> > statements about you don't need to list the> mistakes> > that they have made- I am not on the side of the> > govt.> > etc. but the same could be said about the mistakes> > that herb producers have made. It's not all a> bunch> > of> > beautiful people growing beautiful things, many> > million dollar corporations have taken over the> > companies and mass produce the

product b/c they> > don't> > have to worry about the law suits etc. > > When you say if I grew a bunch of herbs out there> > that> > don't have a lot of side effects there you go> > again...what proof? simple things such as licorice> > do> > have side effects. Loving nature (which I do) and> > the> > beauty in mother nature and planting does not have> > anything to do with it. In fact this is unfair b/c> > its> > not nature vs. chemicals. I find my own 'god' in> > science which is beautiful etc. and this is very> > personal...I love to garden I love nature and I> > consider since I am a person that my roots would> > establish that I am part of this. Not wanting to> > take> > herbs does not have anything to do with my love of> > nature. So this has nothing to do with anything. I>

> am> > a liberal green party environmentalist so you are> > preaching to the choir about nature and this is> not> > the point. I just think we all get stuck in a> > paradigm> > and we are just as bad as the other side. We only> > see> > our point of view which makes it impossible to> have> > a> > fair view of the other side. For example, if I do> > something bad do I reduce myself to that bad thing> > or> > a combination of everything? I don't think herbs> are> > all bad and I don't think science is all bad. I> know> > many people who work on drugs b/c they have had a> > family member die from the disorder and they want> to> > find a cure. That doesn't sound evil to me. > > > > --- Hunter wrote:> > > > > , I have said many times that

herbs, and> all> > > other medicines should only be used with proper> > > supervision. So here we agree. Everything can be> > > deadly if abused or misused.> > > As for the FDA, I don't think I need to start> > > listing the errors they have made, nor the> > medicines> > > they have recalled after declaring them safe.> They> > > rely on the information the drug companies give> > > them. > > > You end by saying that "Herbs can't back up> their> > > claims so the people are at risk." Hmmm True> > > enough I guess. But herbs are not patented, and> > are> > > widely available for anyone to grow for> > themselves. > > > An herb grown in CA will have different> properties> > > than the same species grown in Canada. The soil> is> > >

different, the air and water. > > > If you did a study of all drugs, I bet you would> > > find there is a large number of drugs out there> > with> > > very few side effects, and that many of them are> > > derived from plants, fungus, or some other> > naturally> > > occuring substance. Mother Nature/God/Evolution> > > provided us with natural remedies for most> natural> > > illnesses. Death's Head, a type of very toxic> > > mushroom, has a natural antidote. Milk Thistle.> > > Science causes us to disbelieve all that it can> > > not prove. I wonder if science can quantify the> > > effect of love on cooking, or teaching, or> === message truncated ===__________________________________________________

February 26, 2006

Perhaps sometimes we forget that words spelt in all capitals has always been considered shouting in emails and online, whether it's one word or an entire sentence.

Just my 2 cents worth.

anne

Re: Re: I consider myself proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis C sufferers

You don't need to shout but I am sorry- the drugcompanies don't have everything to do with testing.There are universities and plenty of other ways to getmoney to investigate efficacy. Good scientists come upwith a hypothesis and disprove or prove this. If itwere not a billion dollar industry I might see whereyou are coming from but herbs, herbalists and Chinesedoctors are a billion dollar industry so I can't eatwhat you are saying--- Jackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote:> Yes you are right,, they DO need more testing,, but> as long as the drug companies are in charge of what> gets out there ,, they will NOT be testing in any> significant way as it would be giving their money> away .. and most if not all of the tests that show> negative effects of "alternative" meds are run BY> the PHARMYS OR the FDA which have a VESTED interest> in the PHARMIES.....UNTIL they take the MONEY out of> things,, dont expect much to change..There are good> and bad in both western and alternative> treatments... just look at ALL the side effects of> PEGGED INF,, for example, and IF you saw these kinds> of side effects with a NATURAL substance, IT WOULD> BE PULLED, and the docs would NOT BE able to> prescribe it,, IF IT WERE NATURAL.... but because> its from the pharmies,, they allow it.. and> sometimes the treatments ARE worse than the> disease... > just my 2 cents,, not trying to make anyone mad...> > brain_child846 <peter_tocco@...> wrote:> > Science is a way of verifying information and> > everything you say is your word. > > Amen to scientific verification, for herbs or drugs.> The problem is, > some people have closed their mind to one or the> other. When > investigating the unknown, the outcome is> unpredictable. > > a bunch of herbs out there that> > don't have a lot of side effects there you go> > again...what proof? simple things such as licorice> do> > have side effects. > > Licorice root in particular is one herb with> virtually no side > effects used in moderate amounts. Licorice root is> unique and stands > by itself as one of the great adjutant herbs, that> is, it helps > improve the efficacy of almost any herbal formula> and is thus a part > of nearly all formulas. The trials showing potential> harmful side > effects were done with dose levels way in excess of> amounts people > would take for tonic effects. I'm not sure the dose> level used in > the study that showed licorice root reducing liver> cancer by 50% in > hep c patients, if I remember correctly. I could> cite the study if > you like. > > Medical research is something to be proud of. Herbal> traditions are > part of our human heritage, also something to be> proud of. We need > more testing and probably a better way to classify> alternative > treatments, partly to protect people. One cardinal> rule about herbs > is that more is not necessarily better. Until> herbalists are more > available, people will end up taking their chances.> I hate to see > some companies making sensational claims about herbs> and raking in > millions. Something is wrong there. I used to brew> my own Chinese > formulas, which is totally different but still> something that needs > more testing.> > Okay, that's all I'm going to say about herbs! Nice> discussion, > though.> > Pete> > > > > > > It's a pleasure having you join in our> conversations. We hope you have found the support> you need with us. > > If you are using email for your posts, for easy> access to our group, just click the link--> Hepatitis C/> > Happy Posting > > > >

February 26, 2006

Ewwww passionate girl ,lol

Re: Re: I consider myself proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis C sufferers

You don't need to shout but I am sorry- the drugcompanies don't have everything to do with testing.There are universities and plenty of other ways to getmoney to investigate efficacy. Good scientists come upwith a hypothesis and disprove or prove this. If itwere not a billion dollar industry I might see whereyou are coming from but herbs, herbalists and Chinesedoctors are a billion dollar industry so I can't eatwhat you are saying--- Jackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote:> Yes you are right,, they DO need more testing,, but> as long as the drug companies are in charge of what> gets out there ,, they will NOT be testing in any> significant way as it would be giving their money> away .. and most if not all of the tests that show> negative effects of "alternative" meds are run BY> the PHARMYS OR the FDA which have a VESTED interest> in the PHARMIES.....UNTIL they take the MONEY out of> things,, dont expect much to change..There are good> and bad in both western and alternative> treatments... just look at ALL the side effects of> PEGGED INF,, for example, and IF you saw these kinds> of side effects with a NATURAL substance, IT WOULD> BE PULLED, and the docs would NOT BE able to> prescribe it,, IF IT WERE NATURAL.... but because> its from the pharmies,, they allow it.. and> sometimes the treatments ARE worse than the> disease... > just my 2 cents,, not trying to make anyone mad...> > brain_child846 <peter_tocco@...> wrote:> > Science is a way of verifying information and> > everything you say is your word. > > Amen to scientific verification, for herbs or drugs.> The problem is, > some people have closed their mind to one or the> other. When > investigating the unknown, the outcome is> unpredictable. > > a bunch of herbs out there that> > don't have a lot of side effects there you go> > again...what proof? simple things such as licorice> do> > have side effects. > > Licorice root in particular is one herb with> virtually no side > effects used in moderate amounts. Licorice root is> unique and stands > by itself as one of the great adjutant herbs, that> is, it helps > improve the efficacy of almost any herbal formula> and is thus a part > of nearly all formulas. The trials showing potential> harmful side > effects were done with dose levels way in excess of> amounts people > would take for tonic effects. I'm not sure the dose> level used in > the study that showed licorice root reducing liver> cancer by 50% in > hep c patients, if I remember correctly. I could> cite the study if > you like. > > Medical research is something to be proud of. Herbal> traditions are > part of our human heritage, also something to be> proud of. We need > more testing and probably a better way to classify> alternative > treatments, partly to protect people. One cardinal> rule about herbs > is that more is not necessarily better. Until> herbalists are more > available, people will end up taking their chances.> I hate to see > some companies making sensational claims about herbs> and raking in > millions. Something is wrong there. I used to brew> my own Chinese > formulas, which is totally different but still> something that needs > more testing.> > Okay, that's all I'm going to say about herbs! Nice> discussion, > though.> > Pete> > > > > > > It's a pleasure having you join in our> conversations. We hope you have found the support> you need with us. > > If you are using email for your posts, for easy> access to our group, just click the link--> Hepatitis C/> > Happy Posting > > > >

February 26, 2006

OH I KNOW,, hehe,, sorry, Im just passionate,, anne <kanga2@...> wrote: Perhaps sometimes we forget that words spelt in all capitals has always been considered shouting in emails and online, whether it's one word or an entire sentence. Just my 2 cents worth. anne Re: Re: I consider myself proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis C sufferers You don't need to shout but I am sorry- the drugcompanies don't have everything to do with testing.There are universities and plenty of other ways to getmoney to investigate efficacy. Good scientists come upwith a hypothesis and disprove or prove this. If itwere not a billion dollar industry I might see whereyou are coming from but herbs, herbalists and

Chinesedoctors are a billion dollar industry so I can't eatwhat you are saying--- Jackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote:> Yes you are right,, they DO need more testing,, but> as long as the drug companies are in charge of what> gets out there ,, they will NOT be testing in any> significant way as it would be giving their money> away .. and most if not all of the tests that show> negative effects of "alternative" meds are run BY> the PHARMYS OR the FDA which have a VESTED interest> in the PHARMIES.....UNTIL they take the MONEY out of> things,, dont expect much to change..There are good> and bad in both western and alternative> treatments... just look at ALL the side effects of> PEGGED INF,, for example, and IF you saw these kinds> of side effects with a NATURAL substance, IT WOULD> BE PULLED, and the docs would NOT BE able to> prescribe it,, IF IT

WERE NATURAL.... but because> its from the pharmies,, they allow it.. and> sometimes the treatments ARE worse than the> disease... > just my 2 cents,, not trying to make anyone mad...> > brain_child846 <peter_tocco@...> wrote:> > Science is a way of verifying information and> > everything you say is your word. > > Amen to scientific verification, for herbs or drugs.> The problem is, > some people have closed their mind to one or the> other. When > investigating the unknown, the outcome is> unpredictable. > > a bunch of herbs out there that> > don't have a lot of side effects there you go> > again...what proof? simple things such as licorice> do> > have side effects. > > Licorice root in particular is one herb with> virtually no side > effects used in

moderate amounts. Licorice root is> unique and stands > by itself as one of the great adjutant herbs, that> is, it helps > improve the efficacy of almost any herbal formula> and is thus a part > of nearly all formulas. The trials showing potential> harmful side > effects were done with dose levels way in excess of> amounts people > would take for tonic effects. I'm not sure the dose> level used in > the study that showed licorice root reducing liver> cancer by 50% in > hep c patients, if I remember correctly. I could> cite the study if > you like. > > Medical research is something to be proud of. Herbal> traditions are > part of our human heritage, also something to be> proud of. We need > more testing and probably a better way to classify> alternative > treatments, partly to protect people. One cardinal> rule

about herbs > is that more is not necessarily better. Until> herbalists are more > available, people will end up taking their chances.> I hate to see > some companies making sensational claims about herbs> and raking in > millions. Something is wrong there. I used to brew> my own Chinese > formulas, which is totally different but still> something that needs > more testing.> > Okay, that's all I'm going to say about herbs! Nice> discussion, > though.> > Pete> > > > > > > It's a pleasure having you join in our> conversations. We hope you have found the support> you need with us. > > If you are using email for your posts, for easy> access to our group, just click the link--> Hepatitis C/> > Happy Posting > > > >

February 26, 2006

I agree with you regarding the FDA etc,, but maybe we better let this go for now,, things are getting dylan upset and that is not good for anyone,, Lets just agree to disagree,, ok? hugs hon meHunter <us2china2@...> wrote: Dylan... it seems I made the same mistake once before, probably because you using what looks like Rath's email address. I'm sorry to have forgotten. I forget lots of things. Herbs are not drugs that are produced in controlled settings like a lab. It would be impossible to quantify the amount of the active ingredient in a given portion of most any herb, because they can be grown in different places and circumstances. The big drug companies don't pay for FDA approval because they want to be sure their drugs

are safe. They pay because they have to! The FDA does not require the same of suppliments it considers safe, which is what the FDA considers most herbs to be. The acronym FDA stands for Food and Drug Administration. Foods do not require the same warning lables as drugs. But they do test foods for public safety, and they have given thier ok to every suppliment and herb sold in America. Naturapaths are making a comeback in America. If you talk to one or read about the history of this field of medicine, you will probably find out how the AMA brought about the near extinction of alternative medicine in America. We can have peace. But while I have tried to post reason, you have called my "word" questionable, and accused me of fabrication and twisting your words. That's not nice! I only countered your claims with logic, not slander. I questioned the study mentioned in

the original post, and agreed that the findings were inconclusive. I showed why I felt the study was flawed. Nowhere did I make remark to your character. Goodday. Eat herbs, sleep well, be real! Rath <kdrath@...> wrote: Not coerced just not paying to have their medicineproved that it worked. Anyways- we know how we feeland I want you to have good health and others. Wecould go on and on and on so I want to thank you forengaging and I may seem like I come across a certainway but that is where we become lost in translationb/c of the language of email....so thank you for yourtime and I am appreciative of your thoughts and ofyour knowledge and I think this could go on but Iwould rather hug and say it's nice to have a debatewith

an equal hepper who is searching like me foranswers and good health for others. Take care- and Iam a girl named Dylan :-)--- Hunter wrote:> You are trying to tell me that the producers of> herbs in America bought, or somehow coerced the FDA> into looking the other way?> G'night .> > Rath wrote:> Not really b/c who draws the line of> natural?> and there are studies on milk and we even know it's> b/c of ecoli in the large intestine which breaks> lactose sugars down for you if you cannot break it> down with an enzyme in the duodenum. The fact is> there> aren't warnings for herbs in our country and this is> what is real. No studies or no warnings. fact. the> FDA> does think they are dangerous but the herb producers> want them out of the story. so they are out of the> story.

this is a fact. people get offended if people> say they are dangerous b/c they say we are out to> sabotage what is good and natural. but if western> drugs are bad for us it's not wrong to explain this> to> people (with scientific studies mind you) if they> kill> people many (not all not wanting that debate) they> are> taken off the shelf unlike the herbs. fact.> > --- Hunter wrote:> > > I'm just going to copy and paste this, 'cause I've> > said it too many times before. ", I have said> > many times that herbs, and all other medicines> > should only be used with proper supervision." By> > your reasoning every box of salt should have a> > warning label that eating too much can be harmful,> > or every box of baking soda have a warning not to> > eat this and drink vinegar. Pencils and pens can> be>

> deadly. Should we have government agencies> spending> > tax dollars to protect us? If herbs and dietary> > supplements are dangerous, why doesn't the FDA> think> > so? The same reason they don't think vinegar is> > dangerous. Milk is dangerous if you are allergic. > > The same with eggs, wheat, and.... oh forget it!> > You can construe that cocaine is natural, or even> > LSD, since it naturally occures in the brain. But> I> > think you and everyone else here knows neither> > cocaine nor LSD is natural as I use the word.> > > > Rath wrote:> > That's great what you have to say but I didn't say> > misused or abused. Some people simply use them as> > the> > bottle says and this is enough to be considered> > misuse> > b/c there is not indication that there are deadly> >

side> > effects when combined with other herbs or> medicines.> > In a great world many people would do there> research> > but this is a product being sold on the market> that> > has beautiful packaging so you grab that option> over> > another. Science is a way of verifying information> > and> > everything you say is your word. I have seen> claims> > that things work but these are mostly on sites> that> > are trying to sell their products. Just because> > things> > are 'natural' doesn't mean that they are safe for> > our> > bodies. Poisonous berries are natural, cocaine is> > natural, lava is natural. I am not disputing the> use> > but it is unfair to say that science isn't for our> > benefit. If my father is diagnosed with cancer I> > would> > rather use

something that has scientifically> proven> > to> > work rather than some claims of herbs here or> there.> > Even deadly western medicine has worked on a few> > people but that isn't enough to verify that it> > should> > be used. But you could argue what is natural b/c> > everything on this earth is natural. every> chemical> > compound that is combined with science is natural.> > Changing elements and rearranging the chemistry is> > still natural. I am only saying this not for you> who> > is already convinced but for the other silent> > members> > who should have each side of the story so they can> > think both sides through and make a choice that is> > good for them (whether this be herbs or western> > medicine). Well to respond to another one of your> > statements about you don't need to

list the> mistakes> > that they have made- I am not on the side of the> > govt.> > etc. but the same could be said about the mistakes> > that herb producers have made. It's not all a> bunch> > of> > beautiful people growing beautiful things, many> > million dollar corporations have taken over the> > companies and mass produce the product b/c they> > don't> > have to worry about the law suits etc. > > When you say if I grew a bunch of herbs out there> > that> > don't have a lot of side effects there you go> > again...what proof? simple things such as licorice> > do> > have side effects. Loving nature (which I do) and> > the> > beauty in mother nature and planting does not have> > anything to do with it. In fact this is unfair b/c> > its> > not nature vs.

chemicals. I find my own 'god' in> > science which is beautiful etc. and this is very> > personal...I love to garden I love nature and I> > consider since I am a person that my roots would> > establish that I am part of this. Not wanting to> > take> > herbs does not have anything to do with my love of> > nature. So this has nothing to do with anything. I> > am> > a liberal green party environmentalist so you are> > preaching to the choir about nature and this is> not> > the point. I just think we all get stuck in a> > paradigm> > and we are just as bad as the other side. We only> > see> > our point of view which makes it impossible to> have> > a> > fair view of the other side. For example, if I do> > something bad do I reduce myself to that bad thing> > or> > a combination

of everything? I don't think herbs> are> > all bad and I don't think science is all bad. I> know> > many people who work on drugs b/c they have had a> > family member die from the disorder and they want> to> > find a cure. That doesn't sound evil to me. > > > > --- Hunter wrote:> > > > > , I have said many times that herbs, and> all> > > other medicines should only be used with proper> > > supervision. So here we agree. Everything can be> > > deadly if abused or misused.> > > As for the FDA, I don't think I need to start> > > listing the errors they have made, nor the> > medicines> > > they have recalled after declaring them safe.> They> > > rely on the information the drug companies give> > > them. > > > You end by saying that

"Herbs can't back up> their> > > claims so the people are at risk." Hmmm True> > > enough I guess. But herbs are not patented, and> > are> > > widely available for anyone to grow for> > themselves. > > > An herb grown in CA will have different> properties> > > than the same species grown in Canada. The soil> is> > > different, the air and water. > > > If you did a study of all drugs, I bet you would> > > find there is a large number of drugs out there> > with> > > very few side effects, and that many of them are> > > derived from plants, fungus, or some other> > naturally> > > occuring substance. Mother Nature/God/Evolution> > > provided us with natural remedies for most> natural> > > illnesses. Death's Head, a type of very toxic> > >

mushroom, has a natural antidote. Milk Thistle.> > > Science causes us to disbelieve all that it can> > > not prove. I wonder if science can quantify the> > > effect of love on cooking, or teaching, or> === message truncated ===__________________________________________________

February 26, 2006

I have no problem that you forgot my name- actually I

wrote a really nice email- you are only able to see

one point of view and you seem to think that this is

what is good for everyone- sorry having feelings and

thats not good for anyone- maybe if I flirted with

chris and agreed with everything everyone said that

would be good- sorry that I am trying to brainwash you

all into something- stick to the same and you don't

think saying we got dylan upset and that's not good

for anyone isn't one of the rudest things? i tried to

come to an agreement and nothing...no compasion...

--- Jackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote:

>

> I agree with you regarding the FDA etc,, but maybe

> we better let this go for now,, things are getting

> dylan upset and that is not good for anyone,,

> Lets just agree to disagree,, ok?

> hugs hon

> me

>

> Hunter <us2china2@...> wrote:

> Dylan... it seems I made the same mistake once

> before, probably because you using what looks like

> Rath's email address. I'm sorry to have

> forgotten. I forget lots of things.

> Herbs are not drugs that are produced in

> controlled settings like a lab. It would be

> impossible to quantify the amount of the active

> ingredient in a given portion of most any herb,

> because they can be grown in different places and

> circumstances. The big drug companies don't pay for

> FDA approval because they want to be sure their

> drugs are safe. They pay because they have to! The

> FDA does not require the same of suppliments it

> considers safe, which is what the FDA considers most

> herbs to be. The acronym FDA stands for Food and

> Drug Administration. Foods do not require the same

> warning lables as drugs. But they do test foods for

> public safety, and they have given thier ok to every

> suppliment and herb sold in America.

> Naturapaths are making a comeback in America. If

> you talk to one or read about the history of this

> field of medicine, you will probably find out how

> the AMA brought about the near extinction of

> alternative medicine in America.

> We can have peace. But while I have tried to post

> reason, you have called my " word " questionable, and

> accused me of fabrication and twisting your words.

> That's not nice! I only countered your claims with

> logic, not slander. I questioned the study

> mentioned in the original post, and agreed that the

> findings were inconclusive. I showed why I felt the

> study was flawed. Nowhere did I make remark to your

> character.

> Goodday.

> Chris

> Eat herbs, sleep well, be real!

>

> Rath <kdrath@...> wrote:

> Not coerced just not paying to have their medicine

> proved that it worked. Anyways- we know how we feel

> and I want you to have good health and others. We

> could go on and on and on so I want to thank you for

> engaging and I may seem like I come across a certain

> way but that is where we become lost in translation

> b/c of the language of email....so thank you for

> your

> time and I am appreciative of your thoughts and of

> your knowledge and I think this could go on but I

> would rather hug and say it's nice to have a debate

> with an equal hepper who is searching like me for

> answers and good health for others. Take care- and I

> am a girl named Dylan :-)

>

> --- Hunter wrote:

>

> > You are trying to tell me that the producers of

> > herbs in America bought, or somehow coerced the

> FDA

> > into looking the other way?

> > G'night .

> >

> > Rath wrote:

> > Not really b/c who draws the line of

> > natural?

> > and there are studies on milk and we even know

> it's

> > b/c of ecoli in the large intestine which breaks

> > lactose sugars down for you if you cannot break it

> > down with an enzyme in the duodenum. The fact is

> > there

> > aren't warnings for herbs in our country and this

> is

> > what is real. No studies or no warnings. fact. the

> > FDA

> > does think they are dangerous but the herb

> producers

> > want them out of the story. so they are out of the

> > story. this is a fact. people get offended if

> people

> > say they are dangerous b/c they say we are out to

> > sabotage what is good and natural. but if western

> > drugs are bad for us it's not wrong to explain

> this

> > to

> > people (with scientific studies mind you) if they

> > kill

> > people many (not all not wanting that debate) they

> > are

> > taken off the shelf unlike the herbs. fact.

> >

> > --- Hunter wrote:

> >

> > > I'm just going to copy and paste this, 'cause

> I've

> > > said it too many times before. " , I have

> said

> > > many times that herbs, and all other medicines

> > > should only be used with proper supervision. " By

> > > your reasoning every box of salt should have a

> > > warning label that eating too much can be

> harmful,

> > > or every box of baking soda have a warning not

> to

> > > eat this and drink vinegar. Pencils and pens can

> > be

> > > deadly. Should we have government agencies

> > spending

> > > tax dollars to protect us? If herbs and dietary

> > > supplements are dangerous, why doesn't the FDA

> > think

> > > so? The same reason they don't think vinegar is

> > > dangerous. Milk is dangerous if you are

> allergic.

> > > The same with eggs, wheat, and.... oh forget it!

> > > You can construe that cocaine is natural, or

> even

> > > LSD, since it naturally occures in the brain.

> But

> > I

> > > think you and everyone else here knows neither

> > > cocaine nor LSD is natural as I use the word.

> > >

> > > Rath wrote:

> > > That's great what you have to say but I didn't

> say

> > > misused or abused. Some people simply use them

> as

> > > the

> > > bottle says and this is enough to be considered

> > > misuse

> > > b/c there is not indication that there are

> deadly

> > > side

> > > effects when combined with other herbs or

> > medicines.

> > > In a great world many people would do there

> > research

> > > but this is a product being sold on the market

> > that

> > > has beautiful packaging so you grab that option

> > over

> > > another. Science is a way of verifying

> information

> > > and

> > > everything you say is your word. I have seen

> > claims

> > > that things work but these are mostly on sites

> > that

> > > are trying to sell their products. Just because

> > > things

> > > are 'natural' doesn't mean that they are safe

> for

> > > our

> > > bodies. Poisonous berries are natural, cocaine

> is

> > > natural, lava is natural. I am not disputing the

> > use

> > > but it is unfair to say that science isn't for

> our

> > > benefit. If my father is diagnosed with cancer I

> > > would

> > > rather use something that has scientifically

> > proven

> > > to

> > > work rather than some claims of herbs here or

> > there.

> > > Even deadly western medicine has worked on a few

> > > people but that isn't enough to verify that it

> > > should

> > > be used. But you could argue what is natural b/c

> > > everything on this earth is natural. every

> > chemical

> > > compound that is combined with science is

> natural.

> > > Changing elements and rearranging the chemistry

> is

> > > still natural. I am only saying this not for you

> > who

> > > is already convinced but for the other silent

> > > members

> > > who should have each side of the story so they

> can

> > > think both sides through and make a choice that

> is

> > > good for them (whether this be herbs or western

> > > medicine). Well to respond to another one of

> your

> > > statements about you don't need to list the

> > mistakes

> > > that they have made- I am not on the side of the

> > > govt.

> > > etc. but the same could be said about the

> mistakes

>

=== message truncated ===

__________________________________________________

February 26, 2006

OFCOL!!! THIS STOPS right now,, DYLAN we have tried to hear what you have to say,, YOU are the ONLY one getting upset,, so this stops right now,, NO MORE PERIOD.......................... Rath <kdrath@...> wrote: I have no problem that you forgot my name- actually Iwrote a really nice email- you are only able to seeone point of view and you seem to think that this iswhat is good for everyone- sorry having feelings andthats not good for anyone- maybe if I flirted withchris and agreed with everything everyone said thatwould be good- sorry that I am trying to brainwash youall into something- stick to the same and you don'tthink saying we got dylan upset and that's not goodfor anyone isn't one of the rudest things? i tried tocome to an agreement and nothing...no

compasion...--- Jackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote:> > I agree with you regarding the FDA etc,, but maybe> we better let this go for now,, things are getting> dylan upset and that is not good for anyone,, > Lets just agree to disagree,, ok?> hugs hon> me> > Hunter <us2china2@...> wrote:> Dylan... it seems I made the same mistake once> before, probably because you using what looks like> Rath's email address. I'm sorry to have> forgotten. I forget lots of things. > Herbs are not drugs that are produced in> controlled settings like a lab. It would be> impossible to quantify the amount of the active> ingredient in a given portion of most any herb,> because they can be grown in different places and>

circumstances. The big drug companies don't pay for> FDA approval because they want to be sure their> drugs are safe. They pay because they have to! The> FDA does not require the same of suppliments it> considers safe, which is what the FDA considers most> herbs to be. The acronym FDA stands for Food and> Drug Administration. Foods do not require the same> warning lables as drugs. But they do test foods for> public safety, and they have given thier ok to every> suppliment and herb sold in America. > Naturapaths are making a comeback in America. If> you talk to one or read about the history of this> field of medicine, you will probably find out how> the AMA brought about the near extinction of> alternative medicine in America. > We can have peace. But while I have tried to post> reason, you have

called my "word" questionable, and> accused me of fabrication and twisting your words. > That's not nice! I only countered your claims with> logic, not slander. I questioned the study> mentioned in the original post, and agreed that the> findings were inconclusive. I showed why I felt the> study was flawed. Nowhere did I make remark to your> character.> Goodday.> Chris> Eat herbs, sleep well, be real! > > Rath <kdrath@...> wrote:> Not coerced just not paying to have their medicine> proved that it worked. Anyways- we know how we feel> and I want you to have good health and others. We> could go on and on and on so I want to thank you for> engaging and I may seem like I come across a certain> way but that is where we become lost in translation> b/c of the

language of email....so thank you for> your> time and I am appreciative of your thoughts and of> your knowledge and I think this could go on but I> would rather hug and say it's nice to have a debate> with an equal hepper who is searching like me for> answers and good health for others. Take care- and I> am a girl named Dylan :-)> > --- Hunter wrote:> > > You are trying to tell me that the producers of> > herbs in America bought, or somehow coerced the> FDA> > into looking the other way?> > G'night .> > > > Rath wrote:> > Not really b/c who draws the line of> > natural?> > and there are studies on milk and we even know> it's> > b/c of ecoli in the large intestine which breaks> > lactose sugars down for you if you cannot break it> > down with an enzyme in the

duodenum. The fact is> > there> > aren't warnings for herbs in our country and this> is> > what is real. No studies or no warnings. fact. the> > FDA> > does think they are dangerous but the herb> producers> > want them out of the story. so they are out of the> > story. this is a fact. people get offended if> people> > say they are dangerous b/c they say we are out to> > sabotage what is good and natural. but if western> > drugs are bad for us it's not wrong to explain> this> > to> > people (with scientific studies mind you) if they> > kill> > people many (not all not wanting that debate) they> > are> > taken off the shelf unlike the herbs. fact.> > > > --- Hunter wrote:> > > > > I'm just going to copy and paste this, 'cause> I've> >

> said it too many times before. ", I have> said> > > many times that herbs, and all other medicines> > > should only be used with proper supervision." By> > > your reasoning every box of salt should have a> > > warning label that eating too much can be> harmful,> > > or every box of baking soda have a warning not> to> > > eat this and drink vinegar. Pencils and pens can> > be> > > deadly. Should we have government agencies> > spending> > > tax dollars to protect us? If herbs and dietary> > > supplements are dangerous, why doesn't the FDA> > think> > > so? The same reason they don't think vinegar is> > > dangerous. Milk is dangerous if you are> allergic. > > > The same with eggs, wheat, and.... oh forget it!> > > You can construe that cocaine is

natural, or> even> > > LSD, since it naturally occures in the brain.> But> > I> > > think you and everyone else here knows neither> > > cocaine nor LSD is natural as I use the word.> > > > > > Rath wrote:> > > That's great what you have to say but I didn't> say> > > misused or abused. Some people simply use them> as> > > the> > > bottle says and this is enough to be considered> > > misuse> > > b/c there is not indication that there are> deadly> > > side> > > effects when combined with other herbs or> > medicines.> > > In a great world many people would do there> > research> > > but this is a product being sold on the market> > that> > > has beautiful packaging so you grab that option> >

over> > > another. Science is a way of verifying> information> > > and> > > everything you say is your word. I have seen> > claims> > > that things work but these are mostly on sites> > that> > > are trying to sell their products. Just because> > > things> > > are 'natural' doesn't mean that they are safe> for> > > our> > > bodies. Poisonous berries are natural, cocaine> is> > > natural, lava is natural. I am not disputing the> > use> > > but it is unfair to say that science isn't for> our> > > benefit. If my father is diagnosed with cancer I> > > would> > > rather use something that has scientifically> > proven> > > to> > > work rather than some claims of herbs here or> > there.> > > Even

deadly western medicine has worked on a few> > > people but that isn't enough to verify that it> > > should> > > be used. But you could argue what is natural b/c> > > everything on this earth is natural. every> > chemical> > > compound that is combined with science is> natural.> > > Changing elements and rearranging the chemistry> is> > > still natural. I am only saying this not for you> > who> > > is already convinced but for the other silent> > > members> > > who should have each side of the story so they> can> > > think both sides through and make a choice that> is> > > good for them (whether this be herbs or western> > > medicine). Well to respond to another one of> your> > > statements about you don't need to list the> >

mistakes> > > that they have made- I am not on the side of the> > > govt.> > > etc. but the same could be said about the> mistakes> === message truncated ===__________________________________________________

February 26, 2006

sorry but many people use caps lock to shout- its a

common thing people do

--- elizabethnv1 <elizabethnv1@...> wrote:

> Whos shouting ???

> Re: Re: I

> consider myself proof that herbal remedies DO help

> hepatitis C sufferers

>

> You don't need to shout but I am sorry- the

> drug

> companies don't have everything to do with

> testing.

> There are universities and plenty of other

> ways to get

> money to investigate efficacy. Good scientists

> come up

> with a hypothesis and disprove or prove this.

> If it

> were not a billion dollar industry I might see

> where

> you are coming from but herbs, herbalists and

> Chinese

> doctors are a billion dollar industry so I

> can't eat

> what you are saying

>

> --- Jackie on <redjaxjm@...>

> wrote:

>

> > Yes you are right,, they DO need more

> testing,, but

> > as long as the drug companies are in charge

> of what

> > gets out there ,, they will NOT be testing

> in any

> > significant way as it would be giving their

> money

> > away .. and most if not all of the tests

> that show

> > negative effects of " alternative " meds are

> run BY

> > the PHARMYS OR the FDA which have a VESTED

> interest

> > in the PHARMIES.....UNTIL they take the

> MONEY out of

> > things,, dont expect much to change..There

> are good

> > and bad in both western and alternative

> > treatments... just look at ALL the side

> effects of

> > PEGGED INF,, for example, and IF you saw

> these kinds

> > of side effects with a NATURAL substance, IT

> WOULD

> > BE PULLED, and the docs would NOT BE able to

> > prescribe it,, IF IT WERE NATURAL.... but

> because

> > its from the pharmies,, they allow it.. and

> > sometimes the treatments ARE worse than the

> > disease...

> > just my 2 cents,, not trying to make

> anyone mad...

> >

> > brain_child846 <peter_tocco@...>

> wrote:

> > > Science is a way of verifying

> information and

> > > everything you say is your word.

> >

> > Amen to scientific verification, for herbs

> or drugs.

> > The problem is,

> > some people have closed their mind to one or

> the

> > other. When

> > investigating the unknown, the outcome is

> > unpredictable.

> >

> > a bunch of herbs out there that

> > > don't have a lot of side effects there you

> go

> > > again...what proof? simple things such as

> licorice

> > do

> > > have side effects.

> >

> > Licorice root in particular is one herb with

> > virtually no side

> > effects used in moderate amounts. Licorice

> root is

> > unique and stands

> > by itself as one of the great adjutant

> herbs, that

> > is, it helps

> > improve the efficacy of almost any herbal

> formula

> > and is thus a part

> > of nearly all formulas. The trials showing

> potential

> > harmful side

> > effects were done with dose levels way in

> excess of

> > amounts people

> > would take for tonic effects. I'm not sure

> the dose

> > level used in

> > the study that showed licorice root reducing

> liver

> > cancer by 50% in

> > hep c patients, if I remember correctly. I

> could

> > cite the study if

> > you like.

> >

> > Medical research is something to be proud

> of. Herbal

> > traditions are

> > part of our human heritage, also something

> to be

> > proud of. We need

> > more testing and probably a better way to

> classify

> > alternative

> > treatments, partly to protect people. One

> cardinal

> > rule about herbs

> > is that more is not necessarily better.

> Until

> > herbalists are more

> > available, people will end up taking their

> chances.

> > I hate to see

> > some companies making sensational claims

> about herbs

> > and raking in

> > millions. Something is wrong there. I used

> to brew

> > my own Chinese

> > formulas, which is totally different but

> still

> > something that needs

> > more testing.

> >

> > Okay, that's all I'm going to say about

> herbs! Nice

> > discussion,

> > though.

> >

> > Pete

> >

> > It's a pleasure having you join in our

> > conversations. We hope you have found the

> support

> > you need with us.

> >

> > If you are using email for your posts, for

> easy

> > access to our group, just click the link--

> >

> Hepatitis C/

> >

> > Happy Posting

> >

February 26, 2006

Jax! You've got to be kidding!!!! Where did you get this statistic? How shameful! What is it the FDA is supposed to be doing?Jackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote: WELL.. everyone,, just remember that the 4th leading cause of death in the US is PROPERLY prescribed and PROPERLY taken PRESCRIPTION MEDICATIONS... YES herbs can be dangerous,, but do you NOT think that PEGGED INF IS dangerous as well??? Rath <kdrath@...> wrote: Hello everyone, here is a good website for startershttp://www.valleyskeptic.com/altmed.htm--- anne <kanga2@...> wrote:> , please be

reassured that I didn't take any of> this debate as being negative or argumentative at> all! As someone else said, debate is healthy and I> agree! I guess we're all just a little cautious to> make sure that debates don't disintegrate into> slanging matches that's all. Noone was pointing the> finger at anyone in particular!> > Love> anne> Re: I consider> myself proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis> C sufferers> > > I am sorry anne, I didn't take it that way- I> guess I just believe that this post is for> gathering> information so we all can sift

through it and> learn> about hep c. I have learned a lot from all of your> testaments as well as all of the discussions and> studies. I am very thankful to everyone and I am> sincerely saying that I don't mean to debate-> sometimes its sad that I am called on for arguing> or> what not when I was just having a different> opinion> and trying to show all of the views of the members> so> we all can make choices with each others help. I> appreciate the help from all of you and I just> wish my> attempts to present my view wasn't (this isn't> directed at anyone especially you anne- just> expressing this to the group) always construed as> negative or disagreeable. I just believe that info>

is> power and that when one side is being shown for> days> that this isn't really helping others necessarily.> So> I invite disagreement b/c we all deserve all of> the> aspects...so please everyone see that I am just> having> an opinion and sometimes I will personally attack> after I tried to make it non personal. I am human> so> please forgive me but I don't think that having> info> presented is debating, it is responding to that> with> anger that is debating. Sorry if I offended you> anne, thanks everyone for being out there in> cyber> space b/c I have needed all of you even when I was> silent- I hope there is a cure some day for all of> us> - no matter what that cure ends

up looking like I> wish> it for all of you :-)__________________________________________________

February 26, 2006

I will email you privately with the answer to this question,, I think we had better let this subject drop for now,, ok? thanks jaxHunter <us2china2@...> wrote: Jax! You've got to be kidding!!!! Where did you get this statistic? How shameful! What is it the FDA is supposed to be doing?Jackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote: WELL.. everyone,, just remember that the 4th leading cause of death in the US is PROPERLY prescribed and PROPERLY taken PRESCRIPTION MEDICATIONS... YES herbs can be dangerous,, but do you NOT think that PEGGED INF IS dangerous as well??? Rath <kdrath@...>

wrote: Hello everyone, here is a good website for startershttp://www.valleyskeptic.com/altmed.htm--- anne <kanga2@...> wrote:> , please be reassured that I didn't take any of> this debate as being negative or argumentative at> all! As someone else said, debate is healthy and I> agree! I guess we're all just a little cautious to> make sure that debates don't disintegrate into> slanging matches that's all. Noone was pointing the> finger at anyone in particular!> > Love> anne> Re: I consider> myself proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis> C sufferers> > > I am sorry anne, I didn't take it that way- I> guess I just believe that this post is for> gathering> information so we all can sift through it and> learn> about hep c. I have learned a lot from all of your> testaments as well as all of the discussions and> studies. I am very thankful to everyone and I am> sincerely saying that I don't mean to debate-> sometimes its sad that I am called on for arguing> or> what not when I was just having a different> opinion> and trying to show all of the views of the members> so> we all can make choices with each others help.

I> appreciate the help from all of you and I just> wish my> attempts to present my view wasn't (this isn't> directed at anyone especially you anne- just> expressing this to the group) always construed as> negative or disagreeable. I just believe that info> is> power and that when one side is being shown for> days> that this isn't really helping others necessarily.> So> I invite disagreement b/c we all deserve all of> the> aspects...so please everyone see that I am just> having> an opinion and sometimes I will personally attack> after I tried to make it non personal. I am human> so> please forgive me but I don't think that having> info> presented is debating, it is responding to

that> with> anger that is debating. Sorry if I offended you> anne, thanks everyone for being out there in> cyber> space b/c I have needed all of you even when I was> silent- I hope there is a cure some day for all of> us> - no matter what that cure ends up looking like I> wish> it for all of you :-)__________________________________________________

February 26, 2006

nail on the head again... IMOJackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote: I think that we need to really study anything possible and integrate ALL forms of medicine, THAT would give us all the BEST chance to cure many diseases.. but getting both sides of the debate to come together is where the hurdle is,, allopathic docs are taught that eastern meds are funky,, and eastern docs are taught the same thing about allopathy... THERE IS good and bad in both,, if we could come together, get rid of the bad with both,, we'd be years ahead of where we are now,, its just so sad that we cant accomplish this,, but I DO,, in my heart of hearts believe its because of the money involved in allpathy,, there is really no LONG term money in cure,, only in diagnosis and treatment... just my 2 cents here,, not trying to start a disagreement,, Rath

<kdrath@...> wrote: If the medicine works why would it matter if theprescription is through a Chinese person or a nonChinese person? If there was a study of Westernmedicine and it was prescribed by a Chinese doctor whywould it change the results if it was a properlyconducted study? There should be methods andcalculations that should be reproduced by othersbesides the Chinese doctors. If not than how do youexpect them to be given by non Chinese doctors in thefuture? You are using my words and twisting them Chris- I saidclearly that there are many western medicines that arenot suitable etc. and I am not defending them. I amsimply saying that each side has problems. No a persondoesn't have to take herbs but in many places if theydecide to they cost a lot of money. No someone doesn'thave to take

Western medicine but if they decide tothey cost a lot of money. I already made thispoint..yes its a choice that may be unattainable tomany people. If its about planting beautiful thingswith beautiful people why are they so expensive? Ofcourse it may be okay that they are but you aredefending them for the same reasons that back up thedefense of Wester n drugs. that's the point as well- you are in China. Many of usare in America and we can't easily get onto a planeand fly to china. We have to take what we have how wehave it and this is what I can talk about b/c this isthe reality. Are you going to blame this on the govt.as well? You never actually responded to my realpoints, you only fabricated what I said so thisdoesn't need to go on with us, I just wanted to poseanother side b/c you keep talking about herbs andlaughing at any opposition but this makes me want toshow the other side. I am not trying to convince

youso I don't really have the energy to be attacked forjust wanting to speak for the other side as well. --- Hunter <us2china2@...> wrote:> ! My point was that if you are studying the> effectiveness of "Chinese" Medicines, shouldn't at> least one of the doctors prescribing the medicines> be Chinese? I know that there are pleanty of> herbalists in America. Some of them may even know> what they are doing. I've been talking about MY> treatment. I'm in China. I see a Chinese doctor> who has spent years studying which herbs work well> together, and where the best herbs are grown, and> which things need to be changes as the patient's> body absorbs different amounts of each herb. This> study was a joke! They gave every person the exact> same quantities of the same herbs, or a placebo. and> the time froma

was too short. ( In this case a good> thing, because improper use of herbs can be> hazardous) How is that medicine? No inteligent,> caring herbalist would have dreamed that this study> would have possitive results.> "It's a business just like FDA approved drugs." > Sure it is... in America. Here it is a tradition,> like it used to be in America before the AMA and big> drug companies pushed it aside.> This statement really gets me! "they can> charge what they want and there is nothing anyone> can do about it." No one is telling every patient> with HCV that they have only one hope, and that hope> is an herb that costs $1500 per month and has the> possibility of causing suicidal depression. No one> tells anyone that their only hope is to buy herbs. > Of course people have a

choice! They don't have to> buy. HCV sufferers are at the mercy of the drug> companies. Do you think the FDA, or any other> Federal agency would see the injustice and act to> reduce the cost of treatment. No. This would take> money from the folks at big pharma who elected them.> Even though millions of tax dollars went into the> developement of Interferon, and a thousand other> drugs to fight everything from pink eye to cervical> cancer. Please don't tell me about how the FDA is> helping Americans. The FDA approved drug to fight> Avian Flu, Tamiflu, has cause the death of more than> one person who used it as> directed. It's still on the market.> Man, I gotta go to bed.> Good luck with the FDA!> Chris> > Rath <kdrath@...> wrote:> Your

claim about not seeing a chineese persons> name in> the study is silly. First of all there are many> studies that show some minorities are more at risk> for> depression etc. b/c of ill treatment and unfairly> they> don't have the resources to buffer this. OFten, the> people conducting the study are not of the minority> that they are studying and are we to reject the> claims> and not try to impliment sources for the people> being> studied because there wasn't one of the minority> person conducting the study? Many herb companies> make> millions on their product - many herbalists make a> lot> of money and they have never conducted research to> back up their claims. They make money as well and> they> don't have to sift through the red tape to get it> done. they can charge what they want and there is> nothing anyone can do about

it. It's a business just> like fda approved medicines...I am not claiming that> all herbalist and chinese doctors are scammers but I> can tell you that there are people with good and bad> intentions on every side.> > --- anne wrote:> > > LOL! I just *knew* wouldn't be able to let> > that post pass! Great, well thought out reply> there> > > > anne> > I consider myself> > proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis C> > sufferers> > > > > > MAJOR CAVEATS:> > 1. Chinese Herbals are individual specific> > formulations. (the mixture I take changes almost> > every time I get

blood work drawn.)> > 2. This study used "processed" herbs in pill or> > capsule form. NOT FRESH> > 3. Chinese Herbals are slow acting, and require> > two to three months use to accumulate in the body.> > 4. Herbal treatments should be administered by> > trained and knowledgeable practitioners> > Opinion: This study was designed to prove that> > herbals don't help. I looked at the abstract that> > is sited in this story. Here are the names of the> > medical participants. (Mrudula Jakkula, MD, MS;> > Tacey A. Boucher, PhD; Ulrich Beyendorff, Lic Ac,> > Dipl CH; Shirley M.! Conn, RN; E.> ,> > MA; J. Nolan; Craig J. Peine, MD;> > H. Albrecht, MD) I don't find one Chinese> > name. Further,the abstract omits, perhaps> > intentionally, where the funding for this> "research">

> comes from. I am skeptical, and fear that this was> > study was paid for by some large pharmaceutical> > company, but I can't be certain. If a study is> > funded by a University, (normally unbiased) or an> > entity that stands to gain by the results, they> are> > usually mentioned in the abstracts.> > To each there own. But as some judge China because> > the State controls the media, I hope we all> > understand who controls and manipulates the media> in> > the U.$.> > Love to all,> > Chris> > Eat well, sleep well, be well!> > > > elizabethnv1 wrote:> > > >>http://www.usnews.com/usnews/health/briefs/infectiousdiseases/hb040917> > c.htm?track=rss> > 9/17/04> > Chinese herbs>

> There is no proof that herbal remedies help> > hepatitis C sufferers> > By Helen Fields> > > > Not everyone can tolerate the side effects of> > interferon, the > > standard treatment for hepatitis C. That leaves> > a lot of hepatitis C > > carriers stuck with fatigue and a less healthy> > life, which has led > > many to try herbal treatments. But the data on> > herbs are > > inconclusive. A group of Minnesota researchers> > tried out some > > traditional Chinese herbal medicines that are> > used extensively in > > Asia to treat hepatitis C.> > > > What the researchers wanted to know: Do Chinese> > herbal medicines help > > hepatitis C patients?> > > > What they did: The researchers recruited> > patients through clinics and > > advertising.

Patients were excluded if they'd> > had antiviral treatment > > recently, if they had other liver d! isease, or> > if they consumed more > > than two alcoholic drinks a day. Forty-five> > patients entered the > > study, and 31 made it all the way through the> > follow-up visits. Half > > the subjects took a combination of 10> > traditional Chinese herbs and > > the other 10 took a placebo; no one knew whether> > a patient was > > getting the herbs or the placebo. Both groups> > took the tablets twice > > a day for 12 weeks. At several office visits,> > the participants were > > asked how they were doing and had blood taken to> > check on their liver > > and kidneys.> > > > What they found: The herbal medicines were no> > different from the > > placebo. Liver function

was the same in people> > taking herbs and > > placebo. Neither group had less virus at the end> > of the trial, and > > quality of life showed no improvement, either.> > Side effects were > > mild, and there were about the same number in> > the two groups.> > > > What it means to you: The evidence on using> > herbs for hepatitis C is > > still shaky.> > > > Ca! veats: This is a very small pilot study.> > Most of the subjects were > > middle-aged, white, and male, so the results> > might not apply to > === message truncated ===__________________________________________________

February 26, 2006

Yep,, I think we would stand a much better chance of really getting a real cure, who knows where its gonna come from,, but we gotta look everywhere!!Hunter <us2china2@...> wrote: nail on the head again... IMOJackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote: I think that we need to really study anything possible and integrate ALL forms of medicine, THAT would give us all the BEST chance to cure many diseases.. but getting both sides of the debate to come together is where the hurdle is,, allopathic docs are taught that eastern meds are funky,, and eastern docs are taught the same thing about allopathy... THERE IS good and bad in both,, if we could come together, get rid of the bad with both,, we'd be years ahead of

where we are now,, its just so sad that we cant accomplish this,, but I DO,, in my heart of hearts believe its because of the money involved in allpathy,, there is really no LONG term money in cure,, only in diagnosis and treatment... just my 2 cents here,, not trying to start a disagreement,, Rath <kdrath@...> wrote: If the medicine works why would it matter if theprescription is through a Chinese person or a nonChinese person? If there was a study of Westernmedicine and it was prescribed by a Chinese doctor whywould it change the results if it was a properlyconducted study? There should be methods andcalculations that should be reproduced by othersbesides the Chinese doctors. If not than how do youexpect them to be given by non Chinese doctors in thefuture? You are using my words and twisting them

Chris- I saidclearly that there are many western medicines that arenot suitable etc. and I am not defending them. I amsimply saying that each side has problems. No a persondoesn't have to take herbs but in many places if theydecide to they cost a lot of money. No someone doesn'thave to take Western medicine but if they decide tothey cost a lot of money. I already made thispoint..yes its a choice that may be unattainable tomany people. If its about planting beautiful thingswith beautiful people why are they so expensive? Ofcourse it may be okay that they are but you aredefending them for the same reasons that back up thedefense of Wester n drugs. that's the point as well- you are in China. Many of usare in America and we can't easily get onto a planeand fly to china. We have to take what we have how wehave it and this is what I can talk about b/c this isthe reality. Are you going to blame this on the govt.as

well? You never actually responded to my realpoints, you only fabricated what I said so thisdoesn't need to go on with us, I just wanted to poseanother side b/c you keep talking about herbs andlaughing at any opposition but this makes me want toshow the other side. I am not trying to convince youso I don't really have the energy to be attacked forjust wanting to speak for the other side as well. --- Hunter <us2china2@...> wrote:> ! My point was that if you are studying the> effectiveness of "Chinese" Medicines, shouldn't at> least one of the doctors prescribing the medicines> be Chinese? I know that there are pleanty of> herbalists in America. Some of them may even know> what they are doing. I've been talking about MY> treatment. I'm in China. I see a Chinese doctor> who has spent years studying which herbs work well>

together, and where the best herbs are grown, and> which things need to be changes as the patient's> body absorbs different amounts of each herb. This> study was a joke! They gave every person the exact> same quantities of the same herbs, or a placebo. and> the time froma was too short. ( In this case a good> thing, because improper use of herbs can be> hazardous) How is that medicine? No inteligent,> caring herbalist would have dreamed that this study> would have possitive results.> "It's a business just like FDA approved drugs." > Sure it is... in America. Here it is a tradition,> like it used to be in America before the AMA and big> drug companies pushed it aside.> This statement really gets me! "they can> charge what they want and there is nothing anyone> can do about

it." No one is telling every patient> with HCV that they have only one hope, and that hope> is an herb that costs $1500 per month and has the> possibility of causing suicidal depression. No one> tells anyone that their only hope is to buy herbs. > Of course people have a choice! They don't have to> buy. HCV sufferers are at the mercy of the drug> companies. Do you think the FDA, or any other> Federal agency would see the injustice and act to> reduce the cost of treatment. No. This would take> money from the folks at big pharma who elected them.> Even though millions of tax dollars went into the> developement of Interferon, and a thousand other> drugs to fight everything from pink eye to cervical> cancer. Please don't tell me about how the FDA is> helping Americans. The FDA approved drug to fight> Avian Flu,

Tamiflu, has cause the death of more than> one person who used it as> directed. It's still on the market.> Man, I gotta go to bed.> Good luck with the FDA!> Chris> > Rath <kdrath@...> wrote:> Your claim about not seeing a chineese persons> name in> the study is silly. First of all there are many> studies that show some minorities are more at risk> for> depression etc. b/c of ill treatment and unfairly> they> don't have the resources to buffer this. OFten, the> people conducting the study are not of the minority> that they are studying and are we to reject the> claims> and not try to impliment sources for the people> being> studied because there wasn't one of the minority> person conducting the study? Many herb companies> make> millions on their

product - many herbalists make a> lot> of money and they have never conducted research to> back up their claims. They make money as well and> they> don't have to sift through the red tape to get it> done. they can charge what they want and there is> nothing anyone can do about it. It's a business just> like fda approved medicines...I am not claiming that> all herbalist and chinese doctors are scammers but I> can tell you that there are people with good and bad> intentions on every side.> > --- anne wrote:> > > LOL! I just *knew* wouldn't be able to let> > that post pass! Great, well thought out reply> there> > > > anne> >

I consider myself> > proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis C> > sufferers> > > > > > MAJOR CAVEATS:> > 1. Chinese Herbals are individual specific> > formulations. (the mixture I take changes almost> > every time I get blood work drawn.)> > 2. This study used "processed" herbs in pill or> > capsule form. NOT FRESH> > 3. Chinese Herbals are slow acting, and require> > two to three months use to accumulate in the body.> > 4. Herbal treatments should be administered by> > trained and knowledgeable practitioners> > Opinion: This study was designed to prove that> > herbals don't help. I looked at the abstract that> > is sited in this story. Here are the names of the> > medical participants. (Mrudula Jakkula, MD, MS;> > Tacey A. Boucher, PhD; Ulrich Beyendorff, Lic

Ac,> > Dipl CH; Shirley M.! Conn, RN; E.> ,> > MA; J. Nolan; Craig J. Peine, MD;> > H. Albrecht, MD) I don't find one Chinese> > name. Further,the abstract omits, perhaps> > intentionally, where the funding for this> "research"> > comes from. I am skeptical, and fear that this was> > study was paid for by some large pharmaceutical> > company, but I can't be certain. If a study is> > funded by a University, (normally unbiased) or an> > entity that stands to gain by the results, they> are> > usually mentioned in the abstracts.> > To each there own. But as some judge China because> > the State controls the media, I hope we all> > understand who controls and manipulates the media> in> > the U.$.> > Love to all,> > Chris> > Eat well, sleep well, be

well!> > > > elizabethnv1 wrote:> > > >>http://www.usnews.com/usnews/health/briefs/infectiousdiseases/hb040917> > c.htm?track=rss> > 9/17/04> > Chinese herbs> > There is no proof that herbal remedies help> > hepatitis C sufferers> > By Helen Fields> > > > Not everyone can tolerate the side effects of> > interferon, the > > standard treatment for hepatitis C. That leaves> > a lot of hepatitis C > > carriers stuck with fatigue and a less healthy> > life, which has led > > many to try herbal treatments. But the data on> > herbs are > > inconclusive. A group of Minnesota researchers> > tried out some > > traditional Chinese herbal medicines that are> > used

extensively in > > Asia to treat hepatitis C.> > > > What the researchers wanted to know: Do Chinese> > herbal medicines help > > hepatitis C patients?> > > > What they did: The researchers recruited> > patients through clinics and > > advertising. Patients were excluded if they'd> > had antiviral treatment > > recently, if they had other liver d! isease, or> > if they consumed more > > than two alcoholic drinks a day. Forty-five> > patients entered the > > study, and 31 made it all the way through the> > follow-up visits. Half > > the subjects took a combination of 10> > traditional Chinese herbs and > > the other 10 took a placebo; no one knew whether> > a patient was > > getting the herbs or the placebo. Both groups> > took the tablets twice > > a day

for 12 weeks. At several office visits,> > the participants were > > asked how they were doing and had blood taken to> > check on their liver > > and kidneys.> > > > What they found: The herbal medicines were no> > different from the > > placebo. Liver function was the same in people> > taking herbs and > > placebo. Neither group had less virus at the end> > of the trial, and > > quality of life showed no improvement, either.> > Side effects were > > mild, and there were about the same number in> > the two groups.> > > > What it means to you: The evidence on using> > herbs for hepatitis C is > > still shaky.> > > > Ca! veats: This is a very small pilot study.> > Most of the subjects were > > middle-aged, white, and male, so the results> > might

not apply to > === message truncated ===__________________________________________________

February 26, 2006

Dylan, yes we do read what you write, but we can not read your mind. There are times that I have to read your posts more than once to understand what you are trying to say, and then I'm not sure if I really understand. this is not faulting you, or your thought process, but is just one of the problems with any comunication. Please bare with us. Rath <kdrath@...> wrote: Why yes I do- does any actually read what I write?--- Jackie on wrote:> WELL.. everyone,, just remember that the 4th leading> cause of death in the US is PROPERLY prescribed and> PROPERLY taken PRESCRIPTION MEDICATIONS... > YES herbs can be dangerous,, but do you NOT think> that PEGGED INF IS dangerous as well??? > > Rath

wrote:> Hello everyone, here is a good website for> starters> http://www.valleyskeptic.com/altmed.htm> > --- anne wrote:> > > , please be reassured that I didn't take any> of> > this debate as being negative or argumentative at> > all! As someone else said, debate is healthy and> I> > agree! I guess we're all just a little cautious> to> > make sure that debates don't disintegrate into> > slanging matches that's all. Noone was pointing> the> > finger at anyone in particular!> > > > Love> > anne> > Re: I consider> > myself proof that

herbal remedies DO help> hepatitis> > C sufferers> > > > > > I am sorry anne, I didn't take it that way-> I> > guess I just believe that this post is for> > gathering> > information so we all can sift through it and> > learn> > about hep c. I have learned a lot from all of> your> > testaments as well as all of the discussions and> > studies. I am very thankful to everyone and I am> > sincerely saying that I don't mean to debate-> > sometimes its sad that I am called on for> arguing> > or> > what not when I was just having a different> > opinion> > and trying to show all of the views of the> members> > so> > we all can make choices with each others help. I> > appreciate the help from all of you and I just> > wish my> > attempts

to present my view wasn't (this isn't> > directed at anyone especially you anne- just> > expressing this to the group) always construed> as> > negative or disagreeable. I just believe that> info> > is> > power and that when one side is being shown for> > days> > that this isn't really helping others> necessarily.> > So> > I invite disagreement b/c we all deserve all of> > the> > aspects...so please everyone see that I am just> > having> > an opinion and sometimes I will personally> attack> > after I tried to make it non personal. I am> human> > so> > please forgive me but I don't think that having> > info> > presented is debating, it is responding to that> > with> > anger that is debating. Sorry if I offended you> > anne, thanks

everyone for being out there in> > cyber> > space b/c I have needed all of you even when I> was> > silent- I hope there is a cure some day for all> of> > us> > - no matter what that cure ends up looking like> I> > wish> > it for all of you :-)> > > __________________________________________________>

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