Re: I consider myself proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis C sufferers

February 26, 2006

That's great what you have to say but I didn't saymisused or abused. Some people simply use them as thebottle says and this is enough to be considered misuseb/c there is not indication that there are deadly sideeffects when combined with other herbs or medicines.... <snip>...

Can I just get some clarification here so I can make sure I don't misunderstand. When you're talking herbs do you mean the bottled stuff that you can purchase from any supermarket/healthfood store? Or do you mean traditional Chinese medicine that encompasses a holistic approach and fresh ingredients?

I'm just a little confused...

anne

February 26, 2006

I am sorry anne, I didn't take it that way- I

guess I just believe that this post is for gathering

information so we all can sift through it and learn

about hep c. I have learned a lot from all of your

testaments as well as all of the discussions and

studies. I am very thankful to everyone and I am

sincerely saying that I don't mean to debate-

sometimes its sad that I am called on for arguing or

what not when I was just having a different opinion

and trying to show all of the views of the members so

we all can make choices with each others help. I

appreciate the help from all of you and I just wish my

attempts to present my view wasn't (this isn't

directed at anyone especially you anne- just

expressing this to the group) always construed as

negative or disagreeable. I just believe that info is

power and that when one side is being shown for days

that this isn't really helping others necessarily. So

I invite disagreement b/c we all deserve all of the

aspects...so please everyone see that I am just having

an opinion and sometimes I will personally attack

after I tried to make it non personal. I am human so

please forgive me but I don't think that having info

presented is debating, it is responding to that with

anger that is debating. Sorry if I offended you

anne, thanks everyone for being out there in cyber

space b/c I have needed all of you even when I was

silent- I hope there is a cure some day for all of us

- no matter what that cure ends up looking like I wish

it for all of you :-)

--- anne <kanga2@...> wrote:

> Please don't misunderstand my post. I'm neither for

> or against any particular form of treatment. I'm of

> the opinion that if it works for you, that's

> wonderful, if it doesn't, there are always

> alternatives. I would hope that by now, people

> arent' just putting things into their bodies on

> blind faith alone. I would hope that people are now

> asking questions and reading inserts and researching

> for themselves.

>

> The reason I replied to the way I did was

> because for him, Chinese medicine is working well.

> That's not to say it will work as well or at all for

> everyone. The same can be said for any western

> medicines too.

>

> anne

> Re: I consider

> myself proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis

> C sufferers

>

> This is all great but you know this issue isn't

> black

> or white. I used to be all for herbs and even

> annoyed

> at people who couldn't understand the truth about

> them

> etc. However- now I have quickly changed my mind

> for

> several reasons. First of all- many herbs can be

> deadly - if you are taking them and need an

> emergency

> transplant certain herbs will contribute to

> rejecting

> that transplant. Others have deadly affects with

> combinations of western medicine- for the drug

> companies- well you should be happy that we have

> an

> FDA b/c other countries that don't are largely at

> risk

> from the foods and medicines that they have which

> go

> untested. It's not all 'poor' herb companies b/c

> the

> richer drug companies can test their product and

> the

> herbs can't...In fact the drug companies that pay

> for

> the FDA approval at least have to list the known

> side

> affects and it even explains what combinations can

> be

> lethal..where the herb companies can continue

> advertising their product (many times falsely) and

> they are not responsible if you are at risk or if

> something happens to you. Many don't want to have

> the

> expensive tests done b/c their product doesn't

> actually work and they don't want to have to show

> that

> to people. I am not saying this to be against your

> herbs but people should get the other side b/c

> there

> has been some biases on some parts of you all-

> things

> in this world aren't always separated into 'good'

> or

> 'bad' there are grey areas...and a lot of drug

> companies aren't these evil doers trying to get

> only

> your money....many go out of business for the

> investments in their drugs and they (even with the

> high costs) go our of business b/c of the needed

> tests

> and the fda approval etc. This takes years and it

> doesn't suggest that we see all that's going on.

> We

> see a drug is expensive so we automatically assume

> that it means scam. This is hardly the case. Herbs

> can't back up their claims so the people are at

> risk.

> Thanks,

>

> --- anne <kanga2@...> wrote:

>

> > LOL! I just *knew* wouldn't be able to

> let

> > that post pass! Great, well thought out reply

> there

> >

> > anne

>

__________________________________________________

February 26, 2006

> Science is a way of verifying information and

> everything you say is your word.

Amen to scientific verification, for herbs or drugs. The problem is,

some people have closed their mind to one or the other. When

investigating the unknown, the outcome is unpredictable.

a bunch of herbs out there that

> don't have a lot of side effects there you go

> again...what proof? simple things such as licorice do

> have side effects.

Licorice root in particular is one herb with virtually no side

effects used in moderate amounts. Licorice root is unique and stands

by itself as one of the great adjutant herbs, that is, it helps

improve the efficacy of almost any herbal formula and is thus a part

of nearly all formulas. The trials showing potential harmful side

effects were done with dose levels way in excess of amounts people

would take for tonic effects. I'm not sure the dose level used in

the study that showed licorice root reducing liver cancer by 50% in

hep c patients, if I remember correctly. I could cite the study if

you like.

Medical research is something to be proud of. Herbal traditions are

part of our human heritage, also something to be proud of. We need

more testing and probably a better way to classify alternative

treatments, partly to protect people. One cardinal rule about herbs

is that more is not necessarily better. Until herbalists are more

available, people will end up taking their chances. I hate to see

some companies making sensational claims about herbs and raking in

millions. Something is wrong there. I used to brew my own Chinese

formulas, which is totally different but still something that needs

more testing.

Okay, that's all I'm going to say about herbs! Nice discussion,

though.

Pete

February 26, 2006

I mean both- I have gone to a Chinese doctor who gave

me a sheet of paper with the list of an herb that I

needed to buy at the store. So my info about the

'fresh' vs. 'non-fresh' is confused b/c that is what

my 'old' doctor presecribed.

--- anne <kanga2@...> wrote:

> That's great what you have to say but I didn't say

> misused or abused. Some people simply use them as

> the

> bottle says and this is enough to be considered

> misuse

> b/c there is not indication that there are deadly

> side

> effects when combined with other herbs or

> medicines.... <snip>...

>

> Can I just get some clarification here so I can make

> sure I don't misunderstand. When you're talking

> herbs do you mean the bottled stuff that you can

> purchase from any supermarket/healthfood store? Or

> do you mean traditional Chinese medicine that

> encompasses a holistic approach and fresh

> ingredients?

>

> I'm just a little confused...

>

> anne

__________________________________________________

February 26, 2006

This is exactly what I am trying to say :-) I am not

against one type or another- licorice was a bad

example but the point isn't that there are bad or good

herbs or that all western is good or bad. I am a

massage therapist (college student of psychology/

biology and human development) and I fully believe in

'eastern' ways of things. I just don't believe in all

or nothing. I was just trying to point out that b/c

one thing works for someone that the 'westerners' are

out to get us.

I also am saying that it is great that herbs work but

the problem is that 'unfresh' ones are on the shelf

and without the doctor saying that certain amounts

could be harmful that this could be really dangerous

and it is really dangerous. but I don't need to go

there again-

and some are fine but if you get in a car accident

unexpectedly and you were taking a 'safe' herb some of

them do contribute to not being able to accept the new

organ. Thanks for your information, and thanks for

listening, Dylan :-)

--- brain_child846 <peter_tocco@...> wrote:

> > Science is a way of verifying information and

> > everything you say is your word.

>

> Amen to scientific verification, for herbs or drugs.

> The problem is,

> some people have closed their mind to one or the

> other. When

> investigating the unknown, the outcome is

> unpredictable.

>

> a bunch of herbs out there that

> > don't have a lot of side effects there you go

> > again...what proof? simple things such as licorice

> do

> > have side effects.

>

> Licorice root in particular is one herb with

> virtually no side

> effects used in moderate amounts. Licorice root is

> unique and stands

> by itself as one of the great adjutant herbs, that

> is, it helps

> improve the efficacy of almost any herbal formula

> and is thus a part

> of nearly all formulas. The trials showing potential

> harmful side

> effects were done with dose levels way in excess of

> amounts people

> would take for tonic effects. I'm not sure the dose

> level used in

> the study that showed licorice root reducing liver

> cancer by 50% in

> hep c patients, if I remember correctly. I could

> cite the study if

> you like.

>

> Medical research is something to be proud of. Herbal

> traditions are

> part of our human heritage, also something to be

> proud of. We need

> more testing and probably a better way to classify

> alternative

> treatments, partly to protect people. One cardinal

> rule about herbs

> is that more is not necessarily better. Until

> herbalists are more

> available, people will end up taking their chances.

> I hate to see

> some companies making sensational claims about herbs

> and raking in

> millions. Something is wrong there. I used to brew

> my own Chinese

> formulas, which is totally different but still

> something that needs

> more testing.

>

> Okay, that's all I'm going to say about herbs! Nice

> discussion,

> though.

>

> Pete

>

__________________________________________________

February 26, 2006

, please be reassured that I didn't take any of this debate as being negative or argumentative at all! As someone else said, debate is healthy and I agree! I guess we're all just a little cautious to make sure that debates don't disintegrate into slanging matches that's all. Noone was pointing the finger at anyone in particular!

Loveanne

Re: I consider myself proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis C sufferers

I am sorry anne, I didn't take it that way- Iguess I just believe that this post is for gatheringinformation so we all can sift through it and learnabout hep c. I have learned a lot from all of yourtestaments as well as all of the discussions andstudies. I am very thankful to everyone and I amsincerely saying that I don't mean to debate-sometimes its sad that I am called on for arguing orwhat not when I was just having a different opinionand trying to show all of the views of the members sowe all can make choices with each others help. Iappreciate the help from all of you and I just wish myattempts to present my view wasn't (this isn'tdirected at anyone especially you anne- justexpressing this to the group) always construed asnegative or disagreeable. I just believe that info ispower and that when one side is being shown for daysthat this isn't really helping others necessarily. SoI invite disagreement b/c we all deserve all of theaspects...so please everyone see that I am just havingan opinion and sometimes I will personally attackafter I tried to make it non personal. I am human soplease forgive me but I don't think that having infopresented is debating, it is responding to that withanger that is debating. Sorry if I offended youanne, thanks everyone for being out there in cyberspace b/c I have needed all of you even when I wassilent- I hope there is a cure some day for all of us- no matter what that cure ends up looking like I wishit for all of you :-)

February 26, 2006

Hello everyone, here is a good website for starters

http://www.valleyskeptic.com/altmed.htm

--- anne <kanga2@...> wrote:

> , please be reassured that I didn't take any of

> this debate as being negative or argumentative at

> all! As someone else said, debate is healthy and I

> agree! I guess we're all just a little cautious to

> make sure that debates don't disintegrate into

> slanging matches that's all. Noone was pointing the

> finger at anyone in particular!

>

> Love

> anne

> Re: I consider

> myself proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis

> C sufferers

>

> I am sorry anne, I didn't take it that way- I

> guess I just believe that this post is for

> gathering

> information so we all can sift through it and

> learn

> about hep c. I have learned a lot from all of your

> testaments as well as all of the discussions and

> studies. I am very thankful to everyone and I am

> sincerely saying that I don't mean to debate-

> sometimes its sad that I am called on for arguing

> or

> what not when I was just having a different

> opinion

> and trying to show all of the views of the members

> so

> we all can make choices with each others help. I

> appreciate the help from all of you and I just

> wish my

> attempts to present my view wasn't (this isn't

> directed at anyone especially you anne- just

> expressing this to the group) always construed as

> negative or disagreeable. I just believe that info

> is

> power and that when one side is being shown for

> days

> that this isn't really helping others necessarily.

> So

> I invite disagreement b/c we all deserve all of

> the

> aspects...so please everyone see that I am just

> having

> an opinion and sometimes I will personally attack

> after I tried to make it non personal. I am human

> so

> please forgive me but I don't think that having

> info

> presented is debating, it is responding to that

> with

> anger that is debating. Sorry if I offended you

> anne, thanks everyone for being out there in

> cyber

> space b/c I have needed all of you even when I was

> silent- I hope there is a cure some day for all of

> us

> - no matter what that cure ends up looking like I

> wish

> it for all of you :-)

__________________________________________________

February 26, 2006

WELL.. everyone,, just remember that the 4th leading cause of death in the US is PROPERLY prescribed and PROPERLY taken PRESCRIPTION MEDICATIONS... YES herbs can be dangerous,, but do you NOT think that PEGGED INF IS dangerous as well??? Rath <kdrath@...> wrote: Hello everyone, here is a good website for startershttp://www.valleyskeptic.com/altmed.htm--- anne <kanga2@...> wrote:> , please be reassured that I didn't take any of> this debate as being negative or argumentative at> all! As someone else said, debate is healthy and I> agree! I guess we're all just a little cautious to> make sure that debates don't disintegrate into> slanging matches that's all. Noone was

pointing the> finger at anyone in particular!> > Love> anne> Re: I consider> myself proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis> C sufferers> > > I am sorry anne, I didn't take it that way- I> guess I just believe that this post is for> gathering> information so we all can sift through it and> learn> about hep c. I have learned a lot from all of your> testaments as well as all of the discussions and> studies. I am very thankful to everyone and I am> sincerely saying that I don't mean to debate->

sometimes its sad that I am called on for arguing> or> what not when I was just having a different> opinion> and trying to show all of the views of the members> so> we all can make choices with each others help. I> appreciate the help from all of you and I just> wish my> attempts to present my view wasn't (this isn't> directed at anyone especially you anne- just> expressing this to the group) always construed as> negative or disagreeable. I just believe that info> is> power and that when one side is being shown for> days> that this isn't really helping others necessarily.> So> I invite disagreement b/c we all deserve all of> the> aspects...so please everyone see that I am just>

having> an opinion and sometimes I will personally attack> after I tried to make it non personal. I am human> so> please forgive me but I don't think that having> info> presented is debating, it is responding to that> with> anger that is debating. Sorry if I offended you> anne, thanks everyone for being out there in> cyber> space b/c I have needed all of you even when I was> silent- I hope there is a cure some day for all of> us> - no matter what that cure ends up looking like I> wish> it for all of you :-)__________________________________________________

February 26, 2006

Yes you are right,, they DO need more testing,, but as long as the drug companies are in charge of what gets out there ,, they will NOT be testing in any significant way as it would be giving their money away .. and most if not all of the tests that show negative effects of "alternative" meds are run BY the PHARMYS OR the FDA which have a VESTED interest in the PHARMIES.....UNTIL they take the MONEY out of things,, dont expect much to change..There are good and bad in both western and alternative treatments... just look at ALL the side effects of PEGGED INF,, for example, and IF you saw these kinds of side effects with a NATURAL substance, IT WOULD BE PULLED, and the docs would NOT BE able to prescribe it,, IF IT WERE NATURAL.... but because its from the pharmies,, they allow it.. and sometimes the treatments ARE worse than the disease... just my 2 cents,, not trying to make anyone mad...brain_child846 <peter_tocco@...> wrote:

> Science is a way of verifying information and> everything you say is your word. Amen to scientific verification, for herbs or drugs. The problem is, some people have closed their mind to one or the other. When investigating the unknown, the outcome is unpredictable. a bunch of herbs out there that> don't have a lot of side effects there you go> again...what proof? simple things such as licorice do> have side effects. Licorice root in particular is one herb with virtually no side effects used in moderate amounts. Licorice root is unique and stands by itself as one of the great adjutant herbs, that is, it helps improve the efficacy of almost any herbal formula and is thus a part of nearly all formulas. The trials showing potential harmful side effects were done with dose levels way in excess

of amounts people would take for tonic effects. I'm not sure the dose level used in the study that showed licorice root reducing liver cancer by 50% in hep c patients, if I remember correctly. I could cite the study if you like. Medical research is something to be proud of. Herbal traditions are part of our human heritage, also something to be proud of. We need more testing and probably a better way to classify alternative treatments, partly to protect people. One cardinal rule about herbs is that more is not necessarily better. Until herbalists are more available, people will end up taking their chances. I hate to see some companies making sensational claims about herbs and raking in millions. Something is wrong there. I used to brew my own Chinese formulas, which is totally different but still something that needs more testing.Okay, that's all I'm going to say about herbs! Nice discussion,

though.PeteJackie

February 26, 2006

The same can be said for any western medicines too. YOU said THAT RIGHT... just look how awful it was for Liz!!! SHE had to stop! IF she had had those kind of symptoms with an alternative tx,, she could have either sued the company that manufacturers it or could have gotten the FDA to remove it ,,, anne <kanga2@...> wrote: Please don't misunderstand my post. I'm neither for or against any particular form of treatment. I'm of the opinion that if it works for you, that's wonderful, if it doesn't, there are always alternatives. I would hope that by now, people arent' just putting things into their bodies on blind faith alone. I would hope that people are now

asking questions and reading inserts and researching for themselves. The reason I replied to the way I did was because for him, Chinese medicine is working well. That's not to say it will work as well or at all for everyone. The same can be said for any western medicines too. anne Re: I consider myself proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis C sufferers This is all great but you know this issue isn't blackor white. I used to be all for herbs and even annoyedat people who couldn't understand the truth about themetc. However- now I have quickly changed my mind forseveral reasons. First of all- many herbs can bedeadly - if you are taking them and need an emergencytransplant certain herbs will contribute to rejectingthat transplant. Others have deadly affects withcombinations of western medicine- for the drugcompanies- well you should be happy that we have anFDA b/c other countries that don't are largely at riskfrom the foods and medicines that

they have which gountested. It's not all 'poor' herb companies b/c thericher drug companies can test their product and theherbs can't...In fact the drug companies that pay forthe FDA approval at least have to list the known sideaffects and it even explains what combinations can belethal..where the herb companies can continueadvertising their product (many times falsely) andthey are not responsible if you are at risk or ifsomething happens to you. Many don't want to have theexpensive tests done b/c their product doesn'tactually work and they don't want to have to show thatto people. I am not saying this to be against yourherbs but people should get the other side b/c therehas been some biases on some parts of you all- thingsin this world aren't always separated into 'good' or'bad' there are grey areas...and a lot of drugcompanies aren't these evil doers trying to get onlyyour money....many go out of business for

theinvestments in their drugs and they (even with thehigh costs) go our of business b/c of the needed testsand the fda approval etc. This takes years and itdoesn't suggest that we see all that's going on. Wesee a drug is expensive so we automatically assumethat it means scam. This is hardly the case. Herbscan't back up their claims so the people are at risk.Thanks, --- anne <kanga2@...> wrote:> LOL! I just *knew* wouldn't be able to let> that post pass! Great, well thought out reply there> > anneJackie

February 26, 2006

, NO WAY did that happen,, the FDA has its hands in the pockets of the Pharmies,, so they will never do in any significant amount any studies that will prove the efficacy of herbs and natural vitamins and supplements,, BECAUSE they cannot patent them,, so of course they wont spend time looking at them in any way that matters,, BUT,, they certainly do not look the other way,, there HAVE been groups who have attempted to remove all supplements from the shelves and to try to make all supplements by prescription only which would not only reduce what we can find for ourselves but would greatly increase the cost of supplements,,,but would take our choice OUT of OUR HANDS and give it to the powers that be... UNTIL we take the money OUT of this,, nothing is going to change... , can you imagine just what would happen if our hep c treatment INF/RIBA were a natural substance? HOW fast would they pull it or get the FDA to stop its

import or manufacture?? Pretty Damned quit I'd say...but INF and RIBA are poisonous but get the pass cuz it does kill the virus or put it in remission at least 50% of the time,, but look at ALL the long term side effects those of us who took it are left with,,, I tell ya,, IF a alternative or natural substance left as many ppl disabled as this treatment has,, there would be hell to pay... the hypocracy is amazing, thats for sure...I commend you for doing what YOU feel is right FOR YOU! Hunter <us2china2@...> wrote: You are trying to tell me that the producers of herbs in America bought, or somehow coerced the FDA into looking the other way? G'night . Rath <kdrath@...> wrote: Not really b/c who draws the line of natural?and there are studies on milk and we even know it'sb/c of ecoli in the large intestine which breakslactose sugars down for you if you cannot break itdown with an enzyme in the duodenum. The fact is therearen't warnings for herbs in our country and this iswhat is real. No studies or no warnings. fact. the FDAdoes think they are dangerous but the herb producerswant them out of the story. so they are out of thestory. this is a fact. people get offended if peoplesay they are dangerous b/c they say we are out tosabotage what is good and natural. but if westerndrugs are bad for us it's not wrong to explain this topeople (with scientific studies mind you) if they killpeople many (not all not wanting that debate) they aretaken off the shelf unlike the herbs. fact.--- Hunter wrote:> I'm just going to copy and paste

this, 'cause I've> said it too many times before. ", I have said> many times that herbs, and all other medicines> should only be used with proper supervision." By> your reasoning every box of salt should have a> warning label that eating too much can be harmful,> or every box of baking soda have a warning not to> eat this and drink vinegar. Pencils and pens can be> deadly. Should we have government agencies spending> tax dollars to protect us? If herbs and dietary> supplements are dangerous, why doesn't the FDA think> so? The same reason they don't think vinegar is> dangerous. Milk is dangerous if you are allergic. > The same with eggs, wheat, and.... oh forget it!> You can construe that cocaine is natural, or even> LSD, since it naturally occures in the brain. But I> think you and everyone else here knows neither> cocaine nor LSD is natural as I use the

word.> > Rath wrote:> That's great what you have to say but I didn't say> misused or abused. Some people simply use them as> the> bottle says and this is enough to be considered> misuse> b/c there is not indication that there are deadly> side> effects when combined with other herbs or medicines.> In a great world many people would do there research> but this is a product being sold on the market that> has beautiful packaging so you grab that option over> another. Science is a way of verifying information> and> everything you say is your word. I have seen claims> that things work but these are mostly on sites that> are trying to sell their products. Just because> things> are 'natural' doesn't mean that they are safe for> our> bodies. Poisonous berries are natural, cocaine is> natural, lava is natural.

I am not disputing the use> but it is unfair to say that science isn't for our> benefit. If my father is diagnosed with cancer I> would> rather use something that has scientifically proven> to> work rather than some claims of herbs here or there.> Even deadly western medicine has worked on a few> people but that isn't enough to verify that it> should> be used. But you could argue what is natural b/c> everything on this earth is natural. every chemical> compound that is combined with science is natural.> Changing elements and rearranging the chemistry is> still natural. I am only saying this not for you who> is already convinced but for the other silent> members> who should have each side of the story so they can> think both sides through and make a choice that is> good for them (whether this be herbs or western> medicine). Well to respond to

another one of your> statements about you don't need to list the mistakes> that they have made- I am not on the side of the> govt.> etc. but the same could be said about the mistakes> that herb producers have made. It's not all a bunch> of> beautiful people growing beautiful things, many> million dollar corporations have taken over the> companies and mass produce the product b/c they> don't> have to worry about the law suits etc. > When you say if I grew a bunch of herbs out there> that> don't have a lot of side effects there you go> again...what proof? simple things such as licorice> do> have side effects. Loving nature (which I do) and> the> beauty in mother nature and planting does not have> anything to do with it. In fact this is unfair b/c> its> not nature vs. chemicals. I find my own 'god' in> science which is

beautiful etc. and this is very> personal...I love to garden I love nature and I> consider since I am a person that my roots would> establish that I am part of this. Not wanting to> take> herbs does not have anything to do with my love of> nature. So this has nothing to do with anything. I> am> a liberal green party environmentalist so you are> preaching to the choir about nature and this is not> the point. I just think we all get stuck in a> paradigm> and we are just as bad as the other side. We only> see> our point of view which makes it impossible to have> a> fair view of the other side. For example, if I do> something bad do I reduce myself to that bad thing> or> a combination of everything? I don't think herbs are> all bad and I don't think science is all bad. I know> many people who work on drugs b/c they have had a> family

member die from the disorder and they want to> find a cure. That doesn't sound evil to me. > > --- Hunter wrote:> > > , I have said many times that herbs, and all> > other medicines should only be used with proper> > supervision. So here we agree. Everything can be> > deadly if abused or misused.> > As for the FDA, I don't think I need to start> > listing the errors they have made, nor the> medicines> > they have recalled after declaring them safe. They> > rely on the information the drug companies give> > them. > > You end by saying that "Herbs can't back up their> > claims so the people are at risk." Hmmm True> > enough I guess. But herbs are not patented, and> are> > widely available for anyone to grow for> themselves. > > An herb grown in CA will have different properties>

> than the same species grown in Canada. The soil is> > different, the air and water. > > If you did a study of all drugs, I bet you would> > find there is a large number of drugs out there> with> > very few side effects, and that many of them are> > derived from plants, fungus, or some other> naturally> > occuring substance. Mother Nature/God/Evolution> > provided us with natural remedies for most natural> > illnesses. Death's Head, a type of very toxic> > mushroom, has a natural antidote. Milk Thistle.> > Science causes us to disbelieve all that it can> > not prove. I wonder if science can quantify the> > effect of love on cooking, or teaching, or> > gardening.> > I love you all, but science can't prove it.> > Chris> > Eat well, sleep well, be well!> > > > Rath wrote:> >

This is all great but you know this issue isn't> > black> > or white. I used to be all for herbs and even> > annoyed> > at people who couldn't understand the truth about> > them> > etc. However- now I have quickly changed my mind> for> > several reasons. First of all- many herbs can be> > deadly - if you are taking them and need an> > emergency> > transplant certain herbs will contribute to> > rejecting> > that transplant. Others have deadly affects with> > combinations of western medicine- for the drug> > companies- well you should be happy that we have> an> > FDA b/c other countries that don't are largely at> > risk> > from the foods and medicines that they have which> go> > untested. It's not all 'poor' herb companies b/c> the> > richer drug companies can test their

product and> the> > herbs can't...In fact the drug companies that pay> > for> > the FDA approval at least have to list the known> > side> > affects and it even explains what combinations can> > be> > lethal..where the herb companies can continue> > advertising their product (many times falsely) and> > they are not responsible if you are at risk or if> > something happens to you. Many don't want to have> > the> > expensive tests done b/c their product doesn't> > actually work and they don't want to have to show> > that> > to people. I am not saying this to be against your> > herbs but people should get the other side b/c> there> > has been some biases on some parts of you all-> > things> > in this world aren't always separated into 'good'> or> > 'bad' there are grey

areas...and a lot of drug> > companies aren't these evil doers trying to get> only> > your money....many go out of business for the> > investments in their drugs and they (even with the> > high costs) go our of business b/c of the needed> > tests> === message truncated ===__________________________________________________

February 26, 2006

I think that we need to really study anything possible and integrate ALL forms of medicine, THAT would give us all the BEST chance to cure many diseases.. but getting both sides of the debate to come together is where the hurdle is,, allopathic docs are taught that eastern meds are funky,, and eastern docs are taught the same thing about allopathy... THERE IS good and bad in both,, if we could come together, get rid of the bad with both,, we'd be years ahead of where we are now,, its just so sad that we cant accomplish this,, but I DO,, in my heart of hearts believe its because of the money involved in allpathy,, there is really no LONG term money in cure,, only in diagnosis and treatment... just my 2 cents here,, not trying to start a disagreement,, Rath <kdrath@...> wrote: If the medicine works why would it matter if theprescription

is through a Chinese person or a nonChinese person? If there was a study of Westernmedicine and it was prescribed by a Chinese doctor whywould it change the results if it was a properlyconducted study? There should be methods andcalculations that should be reproduced by othersbesides the Chinese doctors. If not than how do youexpect them to be given by non Chinese doctors in thefuture? You are using my words and twisting them Chris- I saidclearly that there are many western medicines that arenot suitable etc. and I am not defending them. I amsimply saying that each side has problems. No a persondoesn't have to take herbs but in many places if theydecide to they cost a lot of money. No someone doesn'thave to take Western medicine but if they decide tothey cost a lot of money. I already made thispoint..yes its a choice that may be unattainable tomany people. If its about planting beautiful thingswith beautiful

people why are they so expensive? Ofcourse it may be okay that they are but you aredefending them for the same reasons that back up thedefense of Wester n drugs. that's the point as well- you are in China. Many of usare in America and we can't easily get onto a planeand fly to china. We have to take what we have how wehave it and this is what I can talk about b/c this isthe reality. Are you going to blame this on the govt.as well? You never actually responded to my realpoints, you only fabricated what I said so thisdoesn't need to go on with us, I just wanted to poseanother side b/c you keep talking about herbs andlaughing at any opposition but this makes me want toshow the other side. I am not trying to convince youso I don't really have the energy to be attacked forjust wanting to speak for the other side as well. --- Hunter <us2china2@...> wrote:> ! My point was that if

you are studying the> effectiveness of "Chinese" Medicines, shouldn't at> least one of the doctors prescribing the medicines> be Chinese? I know that there are pleanty of> herbalists in America. Some of them may even know> what they are doing. I've been talking about MY> treatment. I'm in China. I see a Chinese doctor> who has spent years studying which herbs work well> together, and where the best herbs are grown, and> which things need to be changes as the patient's> body absorbs different amounts of each herb. This> study was a joke! They gave every person the exact> same quantities of the same herbs, or a placebo. and> the time froma was too short. ( In this case a good> thing, because improper use of herbs can be> hazardous) How is that medicine? No inteligent,> caring herbalist would have dreamed that this

study> would have possitive results.> "It's a business just like FDA approved drugs." > Sure it is... in America. Here it is a tradition,> like it used to be in America before the AMA and big> drug companies pushed it aside.> This statement really gets me! "they can> charge what they want and there is nothing anyone> can do about it." No one is telling every patient> with HCV that they have only one hope, and that hope> is an herb that costs $1500 per month and has the> possibility of causing suicidal depression. No one> tells anyone that their only hope is to buy herbs. > Of course people have a choice! They don't have to> buy. HCV sufferers are at the mercy of the drug> companies. Do you think the FDA, or any other> Federal agency would see the injustice and act

to> reduce the cost of treatment. No. This would take> money from the folks at big pharma who elected them.> Even though millions of tax dollars went into the> developement of Interferon, and a thousand other> drugs to fight everything from pink eye to cervical> cancer. Please don't tell me about how the FDA is> helping Americans. The FDA approved drug to fight> Avian Flu, Tamiflu, has cause the death of more than> one person who used it as> directed. It's still on the market.> Man, I gotta go to bed.> Good luck with the FDA!> Chris> > Rath <kdrath@...> wrote:> Your claim about not seeing a chineese persons> name in> the study is silly. First of all there are many> studies that show some minorities are more at risk> for> depression etc.

b/c of ill treatment and unfairly> they> don't have the resources to buffer this. OFten, the> people conducting the study are not of the minority> that they are studying and are we to reject the> claims> and not try to impliment sources for the people> being> studied because there wasn't one of the minority> person conducting the study? Many herb companies> make> millions on their product - many herbalists make a> lot> of money and they have never conducted research to> back up their claims. They make money as well and> they> don't have to sift through the red tape to get it> done. they can charge what they want and there is> nothing anyone can do about it. It's a business just> like fda approved medicines...I am not claiming that> all herbalist and chinese doctors are scammers but I> can tell you that there are people with good and

bad> intentions on every side.> > --- anne wrote:> > > LOL! I just *knew* wouldn't be able to let> > that post pass! Great, well thought out reply> there> > > > anne> > I consider myself> > proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis C> > sufferers> > > > > > MAJOR CAVEATS:> > 1. Chinese Herbals are individual specific> > formulations. (the mixture I take changes almost> > every time I get blood work drawn.)> > 2. This study used "processed" herbs in pill or> > capsule form. NOT FRESH> > 3. Chinese Herbals are slow acting, and require> > two to three

months use to accumulate in the body.> > 4. Herbal treatments should be administered by> > trained and knowledgeable practitioners> > Opinion: This study was designed to prove that> > herbals don't help. I looked at the abstract that> > is sited in this story. Here are the names of the> > medical participants. (Mrudula Jakkula, MD, MS;> > Tacey A. Boucher, PhD; Ulrich Beyendorff, Lic Ac,> > Dipl CH; Shirley M.! Conn, RN; E.> ,> > MA; J. Nolan; Craig J. Peine, MD;> > H. Albrecht, MD) I don't find one Chinese> > name. Further,the abstract omits, perhaps> > intentionally, where the funding for this> "research"> > comes from. I am skeptical, and fear that this was> > study was paid for by some large pharmaceutical> > company, but I can't be certain. If a study is> > funded by a

University, (normally unbiased) or an> > entity that stands to gain by the results, they> are> > usually mentioned in the abstracts.> > To each there own. But as some judge China because> > the State controls the media, I hope we all> > understand who controls and manipulates the media> in> > the U.$.> > Love to all,> > Chris> > Eat well, sleep well, be well!> > > > elizabethnv1 wrote:> > > >>http://www.usnews.com/usnews/health/briefs/infectiousdiseases/hb040917> > c.htm?track=rss> > 9/17/04> > Chinese herbs> > There is no proof that herbal remedies help> > hepatitis C sufferers> > By Helen Fields> > > > Not everyone can tolerate the side effects of> >

interferon, the > > standard treatment for hepatitis C. That leaves> > a lot of hepatitis C > > carriers stuck with fatigue and a less healthy> > life, which has led > > many to try herbal treatments. But the data on> > herbs are > > inconclusive. A group of Minnesota researchers> > tried out some > > traditional Chinese herbal medicines that are> > used extensively in > > Asia to treat hepatitis C.> > > > What the researchers wanted to know: Do Chinese> > herbal medicines help > > hepatitis C patients?> > > > What they did: The researchers recruited> > patients through clinics and > > advertising. Patients were excluded if they'd> > had antiviral treatment > > recently, if they had other liver d! isease, or> > if they consumed more > > than two alcoholic

drinks a day. Forty-five> > patients entered the > > study, and 31 made it all the way through the> > follow-up visits. Half > > the subjects took a combination of 10> > traditional Chinese herbs and > > the other 10 took a placebo; no one knew whether> > a patient was > > getting the herbs or the placebo. Both groups> > took the tablets twice > > a day for 12 weeks. At several office visits,> > the participants were > > asked how they were doing and had blood taken to> > check on their liver > > and kidneys.> > > > What they found: The herbal medicines were no> > different from the > > placebo. Liver function was the same in people> > taking herbs and > > placebo. Neither group had less virus at the end> > of the trial, and > > quality of life showed no improvement,

either.> > Side effects were > > mild, and there were about the same number in> > the two groups.> > > > What it means to you: The evidence on using> > herbs for hepatitis C is > > still shaky.> > > > Ca! veats: This is a very small pilot study.> > Most of the subjects were > > middle-aged, white, and male, so the results> > might not apply to > === message truncated ===__________________________________________________

February 26, 2006