Re: Sundberg-Partington for totally nonverbal kids

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/7/00 1:42:00 PM Central Standard Time,

lgafford@... writes:

> I am wondering if

> this works for totally non-verbal kids.

,

My son is also completely nonverbal without the potential for sign due to

severe global apraxia secondary to his dual diagnosis of autism & CP. He

speaks by typing into a computer which converts text to speech.

We are trying some elements of this method and although we cannot achieve

the kind of speed and fluency that is often mentioned here, it gives us some

new ways to work on language production and use that we didn't have before.

For us this is like everything we have done with Colin: ADAPT ADAPT and

ADAPT some more.

[Guest guest]

Sometimes it isn't the child's inability to learn to do nonverbal

imitation

but a lack of motivation. We used countless mass trials trying to teach

our child

to clap his hands and he never got it. After getting one strong mand

with

sign language, I would ask him what he wanted and then tell him to

imitate

me touching my nose, eyes, etc. before giving him the manded

item. He did things I never knew he could do. I asked him to do them

quickly . I prompted quickly any nonresponse and ignored an incorrect

response by asking again then prompting immediately. Our traditional ABA

moved tooooo slowly that his automatic reinforcement was too hard to

compete

with. He'd rather stim on his hands than clap them. Carbone will tell

you if you have problems it is usually the therapy and not the child

behind it. People frequently

post when and where the next workshops are and it was well worth the

money

and effort to attend.

We used PECS and stop to use sign language and paired the sign with

language

as you also do with PECS and it seems that he is finding it easier to say

the words than to sign them.

On Tue, 7 Mar 2000 11:20:57 -0800 (PST) Gafford

<lgafford@...> writes:

> From: Gafford <lgafford@...>

>

> I just joined this list, because I am interested

> in finding out about this approach to ABA. Although I

> have read the Sundberg book, I still feel that I know

> very little about this approach. I am wondering if

> this works for totally non-verbal kids. We are using

> PECS with great success with my son, and sign is

> really not an option as his fine motor skills are

> very poor. (We spent a month trying to teach him to

> raise two fingers--without success). I have

> incorporated a few things from the Sundberg book into

> our program, but I would like to know more. Does

> anyone else have experience using this approach with

> nonverbal kids using PECS?

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

I hate to sound ignorant - i am just new to this, but what is PECS?

Kind Regards

- Mom to Jack 4

[ ] Sundberg-Partington for totally nonverbal kids

> From: Gafford <lgafford@...>

>

> I just joined this list, because I am interested

> in finding out about this approach to ABA. Although I

> have read the Sundberg book, I still feel that I know

> very little about this approach. I am wondering if

> this works for totally non-verbal kids. We are using

> PECS with great success with my son, and sign is

> really not an option as his fine motor skills are

> very poor. (We spent a month trying to teach him to

> raise two fingers--without success). I have

> incorporated a few things from the Sundberg book into

> our program, but I would like to know more. Does

> anyone else have experience using this approach with

> nonverbal kids using PECS?

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Picture Exchange Communication System: a communication system developed

by Bondy, PhD. Not recommend as a first communication choice in

verbal analysis because of the inability to engage in conversation and

spontaneously

create pure mands. Many children become verbal using PECS. Many with

sign

language and it is easier to carry signs around in the head than a large

book on the arm. Sundberg/Partington manual gives clear guidelines on

communication approaches for individual children. :-)

On Wed, 8 Mar 2000 08:54:50 +1100 " on "

<nrogerso@...> writes:

> From: " on " <nrogerso@...>

>

> I hate to sound ignorant - i am just new to this, but what is PECS?

>

> Kind Regards

> - Mom to Jack 4

> [ ] Sundberg-Partington for totally nonverbal kids

>

>

> > From: Gafford <lgafford@...>

> >

> > I just joined this list, because I am interested

> > in finding out about this approach to ABA. Although I

> > have read the Sundberg book, I still feel that I know

> > very little about this approach. I am wondering if

> > this works for totally non-verbal kids. We are using

> > PECS with great success with my son, and sign is

> > really not an option as his fine motor skills are

> > very poor. (We spent a month trying to teach him to

> > raise two fingers--without success). I have

> > incorporated a few things from the Sundberg book into

> > our program, but I would like to know more. Does

> > anyone else have experience using this approach with

> > nonverbal kids using PECS?

> >

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Picture Exchange Communication System: a communication system developed

by Bondy, PhD. Not recommend as a first communication choice in

verbal analysis because of the inability to engage in conversation and

spontaneously

create pure mands. Many children become verbal using PECS. Many with

sign

language and it is easier to carry signs around in the head than a large

book on the arm. Sundberg/Partington manual gives clear guidelines on

communication approaches for individual children. :-)

On Wed, 8 Mar 2000 08:54:50 +1100 " on "

<nrogerso@...> writes:

> From: " on " <nrogerso@...>

>

> I hate to sound ignorant - i am just new to this, but what is PECS?

>

> Kind Regards

> - Mom to Jack 4

> [ ] Sundberg-Partington for totally nonverbal kids

>

>

> > From: Gafford <lgafford@...>

> >

> > I just joined this list, because I am interested

> > in finding out about this approach to ABA. Although I

> > have read the Sundberg book, I still feel that I know

> > very little about this approach. I am wondering if

> > this works for totally non-verbal kids. We are using

> > PECS with great success with my son, and sign is

> > really not an option as his fine motor skills are

> > very poor. (We spent a month trying to teach him to

> > raise two fingers--without success). I have

> > incorporated a few things from the Sundberg book into

> > our program, but I would like to know more. Does

> > anyone else have experience using this approach with

> > nonverbal kids using PECS?

> >

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

Where can you buy PECS or view a description of it?

[ ] Sundberg-Partington for totally nonverbal kids

>

> From: Gafford <lgafford@...>

>

> I just joined this list, because I am interested

> in finding out about this approach to ABA. Although I

> have read the Sundberg book, I still feel that I know

> very little about this approach. I am wondering if

> this works for totally non-verbal kids. We are using

> PECS with great success with my son, and sign is

> really not an option as his fine motor skills are

> very poor. (We spent a month trying to teach him to

> raise two fingers--without success). I have

> incorporated a few things from the Sundberg book into

> our program, but I would like to know more. Does

> anyone else have experience using this approach with

> nonverbal kids using PECS?

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

While at the Cincinnati OH, KY conference, they showed a video of a child

who 9 y/o, totally non-verbal, had no sign, and no PECS (Picture Exchange

Communication System). In one month, this child was echoing, and beginning

to sign (so the video showed). I could not believe it. So much so, I

began to cry. I use to think our son could not sign either due to low

muscle tone. I was wrong. He is now signing cookie (pretty close any how,

he points to the inside of his palm), and we is making a fist and slaps it

for " pop " . Both need to be shaped, but he knows what to do, to get what

he wants. He still uses his PECS, which he has almost 100 icons.

McGreevy pretty much said, if you are using PECS, don't abandon it right

away. If the child pulls the cookie icon, say back to them " you want

cookie " , and then sign it. And HOH with the child, but use a 'easy in,

easy out' approach so the child does not become prompt dependent.

We have set up a sign program for our son. Where we show him the item,

model the sign, and then HOH. But now, he pretty much does it

independently.

[ ] Sundberg-Partington for totally nonverbal kids

From: Gafford <lgafford@...>

I just joined this list, because I am interested

in finding out about this approach to ABA. Although I

have read the Sundberg book, I still feel that I know

very little about this approach. I am wondering if

this works for totally non-verbal kids. We are using

PECS with great success with my son, and sign is

really not an option as his fine motor skills are

very poor. (We spent a month trying to teach him to

raise two fingers--without success). I have

incorporated a few things from the Sundberg book into

our program, but I would like to know more. Does

anyone else have experience using this approach with

nonverbal kids using PECS?

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Try going to

http://trainland.tripod.com/pecs.htm

This is a mothers site that she has set up many icons that can be printed

out and used. When we first started using PECS, I took pictures off of

toy boxes, example, a picture of his Ooglie, and scanned it, and dropped it

into an icon for him. I used many " real " pictures of his reinforcers to

start teaching PECS. After awhile, the actual pictures on the Boardmaker

software became useable for our son.

you can try

www.pecs.com which will take you to where you can see some of the products

used with PECS.

The software it's self runs somewhere in the neighborhood of 4-500 dollars.

If you are really looking at doing PECS, go to your school district or

your county board of MR/DD, I would think they may have a copy of the

program that they could make the pictures you would need, like bubbles,

drink, eat, etc.

Re: [ ] Sundberg-Partington for totally nonverbal kids

From: " on " <nrogerso@...>

Where can you buy PECS or view a description of it?

[ ] Sundberg-Partington for totally nonverbal kids

>

> From: Gafford <lgafford@...>

>

> I just joined this list, because I am interested

> in finding out about this approach to ABA. Although I

> have read the Sundberg book, I still feel that I know

> very little about this approach. I am wondering if

> this works for totally non-verbal kids. We are using

> PECS with great success with my son, and sign is

> really not an option as his fine motor skills are

> very poor. (We spent a month trying to teach him to

> raise two fingers--without success). I have

> incorporated a few things from the Sundberg book into

> our program, but I would like to know more. Does

> anyone else have experience using this approach with

> nonverbal kids using PECS?

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

>

>I think that for children who don't even have a concept of communication,

>PECS can work wonders. Again, I'm not really disagreeing with your

>assessment, I just hate for people to dismiss it without serious

>consideration when it might be able to help their child (especially for

>children with no communication skills). As for my son, it can act as a

> " spring board " to further communication.

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates

>

Yup! Thank you. I also hate this tendency for groups to have this ALL or

NOTHING thinking, because if defeats the kids. When I went to the KY

conference, I was sure relieved to hear them say not to drop what works,

but to add and expand and use ASL, and they admitted not all kids can use

it effectively, but to try it, because most people do not pick appropriate

signs or practice enough and contrive situations for it first or even teach

the motor skills, etc. So, we could and should try it again using different

principles and focus on manding and then some tacts that are relevant.

With this I agree, but believe me, we have no intention of throwing the

baby out with the bath water. Oddly enough I had a conversation with an SLP

who was arguing on behalf of a child with a behaviorist who prefers PECS,

and who was saying to ignore the child's signs. This child is a pretty good

signer. Not a fast learner compared to a deaf child perhaps, but can

answers simple questions using ASL. The family and the school wanted to add

PECS, because they wanted a way to communicate when nonsigners needed to

understand and because learning new volcabulary took a long time sometimes

if the motor planning was very complex and there were not a lot of

opportunities to practice. I told the SLP, that in my humble opinion, they

should NEVER ignore the child's signing, but if they were to use PECS, that

during the training trials ONLY, to acknowledge the communication enough to

prevent frustration and HOH do PECS if they felt it added to her language

capabilities and the PECS could get used sooner and easier, but to

otherwise honor the ASL for what it was, a valid language.

I would hate to pick and choose. Isaac has almost mastered three ASL motor

imitations and is starting to know MILK and BOOK with us saying the word

and delaying our, DO THIS. He is now starting to sign the MILK on hearing

the word from us. We haven't really done it as a mand yet, because he did

not have the motor pattern down before. He could sign DRINK and we would

then take him to the kitchen and either have him point to what we wanted or

use icons, and he could choose out of an array of icons, certainly having

no ability to sign for eight different drinks, but he did and could choose

from eight to ten icons and ignore things he did not want. I would hate to

see people lose sight of the ultimate goal. Communication. I think you

could use sign at first if you wanted and really GO TO TOWN practicing

manding and see how the child does their motor stuff, and requesting, but

if you have a kid who really has a hard time, they can learn a lot of PECS

usually and get less frustrated too, so maybe doing both is not such a bad

idea.

[Guest guest]

We used PECS and I believed it in but after attending these workshops

on AVB it is clearly inferior to signing. We're lucky our children are

verbalizing

but some children won't and each sign is it's own individual icon where

as PECS

there are ambiguities (a card for beautiful is questionable, a sign for

beautiful is

precise). My child picked up signs much faster than he was with the

cards because

the answer was one step, there in his hands. PECS requires the thought

process of

getting to the book, looking and choosing. It is selection base

communication where

the children are basically matching. But it is parent friendly.

Signing is harder to teach

but I think it is easier for the child to learn. It is also hard to

move into tacts and intraverbals with PECS...but I've been told if you're

creative...not impossible. Obviously, because there are clearly children

who must use PECS to communicate. I'm just not going to spend anymore

time with it. Manding was the most effective way to teach my

son signs and visa-versa. He went from nonverbal to verbal in 3 weeks.

A strong

echoic with in 8 weeks and the beginnings of spontaneous manding. I

learned of this on Nov. 5, 1999. We are now tacting and doing early

intraverbals. I could not achieve this with PECS.

Again, we are lucky are children are using the verbal and however we got

them to God Bless it, but there is so much more for them to learn.

Thanks for your thoughts and know I respect PECS and know there is a

place for it in teaching our autistic children.

On Tue, 7 Mar 2000 18:29:03 EST mbilek@... writes:

> From: mbilek@...

>

> Re: the message: From: A <astralweeks1@...>

> that stated: Picture Exchange Communication System: a

> communication system

> developed by Bondy, PhD. Not recommend as a first

> communication

> choice in verbal analysis because of the inability to engage in

> conversation

> and

> spontaneously create pure mands. Many children become verbal

> using PECS.

> Many with sign language and it is easier to carry signs around in

> the head

> than a large book on the arm. Sundberg/Partington manual gives

> clear

> guidelines on

> communication approaches for individual children. :-)

>

> In response to this message, a close friend and I started PECS with

> our sons

> (they're 3 days apart in age) starting a few weeks before their

> third

> birthdays. Our results were phenomenal. We had both been working

> with

> speech paths. for over a year and had tried traditional methods

> along with

> ASL with NO results. Within 3 weeks of starting PECS, both of our

> boys were

> communicating their wants and my son started talking within 6 weeks.

> Her son

> was non-verbal and is just now starting to do verbal im., my son is

> talking a

> lot (we're going to try Sundberg/Partington to increase his

> conversational

> skills).

>

> I agree with your assessment of its limited conversation/spontaneity

> capacity, but for a child who needs to communicate, and communicate

> NOW, it's

> fast and for many children, easy (I know 5 other children who were

> taught to

> use PECS after seeing my son and my friend's son using it, and they

> have all

> had great degrees of success compared with their previous means, or

> total

> lack, of communication). I disagree about the convenience/ease

> aspect. My

> son was able to use his PECS book to communicate with anyone, not

> just with

> people who knew ASL, so carrying a book was a minor inconvenience.

>

> I think that for children who don't even have a concept of

> communication,

> PECS can work wonders. Again, I'm not really disagreeing with your

> assessment, I just hate for people to dismiss it without serious

> consideration when it might be able to help their child (especially

> for

> children with no communication skills). As for my son, it can act

> as a

> " spring board " to further communication.

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

> GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates

> as low as 0.0% Intro APR and no hidden fees.

> Apply NOW!

> 1/975/1/_/659983/_/952471747/

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you very much for all helping me with my PECS inquiry. I guess some

things work better with some children. I know my some was struggling with A

B C on paper, so we brought letters which were plastic coloured objects and

he knows A - Z forward, backwards, sequentially and random. It just clicked

with a certain material. My son is a little verbal. He has about 200 words,

mostly nouns. He only uses one word sentences to get what he wants and he

has great eye contact - i guess my question is, would PECS work to increase

that language to 2 and 3 word sentences and then onto conversation, or

should i look into this Carbone approach for that.

Sorry for all of this, but i am only 6 weeks into ABA which my son is doing

well in, but i just feel i want something to kick start his language as his

behaviours are very manageable.

Thanks for all being out there and taking the time to read.

Sydney, Australia

Re: [ ] Sundberg-Partington for totally nonverbal kids

> From: mbilek@...

>

> I know that I am an extremely visual learner--when I memorize, I " see " the

> page in my mind (I can still see " Revere's Ride " that I had to

memorize

> in 7th grade :-) I wonder if this is true (only more so) for my son and

> that's why he responded so well to PECS. After a couple of months on

PECS,

> he had about 200 pictures in his book. We organized them by categories

and

> he didn't even have to look for a picture--he knew right where it was and

> would flip to it. I think signing was just too abstract for the way his

> brain works, because we tried to teach it the same way we did PECS and got

no

> results. For my son, signing wouldn't be superior to PECS, but obviously

for

> your child (and others who learn in that way), it is.

>

> What about the fact that signs limit the child to talking to people who

sign?

> Why is that superior to using pictures, which may be less expressive

> (although I'm not sure I agree with that supposition), but are more

> universally understood, especially if they have the words printed above

them?

> Maybe I'm missing something...

>

> I'm NOT trying to say that PECS is better--I AM trying to say that I think

it

> depends on the child. I think that's the real benefit in having a forum

like

> this to discuss teaching options and methods--rather than being limited to

> one answer, we can learn from others experiences (and mistakes) and use

> whatever works best for our child's learning style.

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 2.9%

> Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW!

> 1/936/1/_/659983/_/952484103/

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Thanks for the response and feedback, but I really

didn't want to debate the merits of sign versus PECS.

I've been implementing an ABA program for my son for

two years now, and I have already chosen to use

primarily spoken language and PECS with Jonny.

Believe me, I didn't make this decision without a lot

of consideration of what is best for Jonny, taking

into account all of his strengths and weaker areas.

PECS is absolutely necessary for Jonny to

communicate. I've gotten to know him much better

through his PECS.

Also, we have to keep in mind that each autistic

child is different. Just Sundberg or Carbone

recommends sign doesn't mean it is best for Jonny.

My question was whether others have been able to

combine the best of both approaches, incorporating

aspects of Sundberg into a PECS program. Thanks.

--- A <astralweeks1@...> wrote:

> Sometimes it isn't the child's inability to learn to

> do nonverbal

> imitation

> but a lack of motivation. We used countless mass

> trials trying to teach

> our child

> to clap his hands and he never got it. After

> getting one strong mand

> with

> sign language, I would ask him what he wanted and

> then tell him to

> imitate

> me touching my nose, eyes, etc. before giving him

> the manded

> item. He did things I never knew he could do. I

> asked him to do them

> quickly . I prompted quickly any nonresponse and

> ignored an incorrect

> response by asking again then prompting immediately.

> Our traditional ABA

> moved tooooo slowly that his automatic reinforcement

> was too hard to

> compete

> with. He'd rather stim on his hands than clap them.

> Carbone will tell

> you if you have problems it is usually the therapy

> and not the child

> behind it. People frequently

> post when and where the next workshops are and it

> was well worth the

> money

> and effort to attend.

>

>

> We used PECS and stop to use sign language and

> paired the sign with

> language

> as you also do with PECS and it seems that he is

> finding it easier to say

> the words than to sign them.

>

> On Tue, 7 Mar 2000 11:20:57 -0800 (PST)

> Gafford

> <lgafford@...> writes:

> > From: Gafford <lgafford@...>

> >

> > I just joined this list, because I am

> interested

> > in finding out about this approach to ABA.

> Although I

> > have read the Sundberg book, I still feel that I

> know

> > very little about this approach. I am wondering

> if

> > this works for totally non-verbal kids. We are

> using

> > PECS with great success with my son, and sign is

> > really not an option as his fine motor skills are

> > very poor. (We spent a month trying to teach him

> to

> > raise two fingers--without success). I have

> > incorporated a few things from the Sundberg book

> into

> > our program, but I would like to know more. Does

> > anyone else have experience using this approach

> with

> > nonverbal kids using PECS?

> >

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

,

We are currently implementing the Sundberg and Partington approach into my son's PECS program and it is going great. At the conference I attended Dr. Carbone and McGreevy both informed me to continue with PECS since we was already doing that.

Re: [ ] Sundberg-Partington for totally nonverbal kidsFrom: Gafford <lgafford@...> Hi, Thanks for the response and feedback, but I reallydidn't want to debate the merits of sign versus PECS. I've been implementing an ABA program for my son fortwo years now, and I have already chosen to use primarily spoken language and PECS with Jonny. Believe me, I didn't make this decision without a lotof consideration of what is best for Jonny, takinginto account all of his strengths and weaker areas. PECS is absolutely necessary for Jonny tocommunicate. I've gotten to know him much better through his PECS. Also, we have to keep in mind that each autisticchild is different. Just Sundberg or Carbone recommends sign doesn't mean it is best for Jonny. My question was whether others have been able tocombine the best of both approaches, incorporatingaspects of Sundberg into a PECS program. Thanks. --- A <astralweeks1@...> wrote:> Sometimes it isn't the child's inability to learn to> do nonverbal> imitation> but a lack of motivation. We used countless mass> trials trying to teach> our child> to clap his hands and he never got it. After> getting one strong mand> with> sign language, I would ask him what he wanted and> then tell him to> imitate> me touching my nose, eyes, etc. before giving him> the manded> item. He did things I never knew he could do. I> asked him to do them> quickly . I prompted quickly any nonresponse and> ignored an incorrect> response by asking again then prompting immediately.> Our traditional ABA> moved tooooo slowly that his automatic reinforcement> was too hard to> compete> with. He'd rather stim on his hands than clap them.> Carbone will tell> you if you have problems it is usually the therapy> and not the child> behind it. People frequently> post when and where the next workshops are and it> was well worth the> money> and effort to attend.> > > We used PECS and stop to use sign language and> paired the sign with> language> as you also do with PECS and it seems that he is> finding it easier to say> the words than to sign them. > > On Tue, 7 Mar 2000 11:20:57 -0800 (PST) > Gafford> <lgafford@...> writes:> > From: Gafford <lgafford@...>> > > > I just joined this list, because I am> interested> > in finding out about this approach to ABA. > Although I> > have read the Sundberg book, I still feel that I> know> > very little about this approach. I am wondering> if> > this works for totally non-verbal kids. We are> using> > PECS with great success with my son, and sign is> > really not an option as his fine motor skills are> > very poor. (We spent a month trying to teach him> to> > raise two fingers--without success). I have > > incorporated a few things from the Sundberg book> into> > our program, but I would like to know more. Does> > anyone else have experience using this approach> with> > nonverbal kids using PECS? > > > > > > __________________________________________________> >

[Guest guest]

It is selection base

>communication where

>the children are basically matching. But it is parent friendly.

>Signing is harder to teach

>but I think it is easier for the child to learn. It is also hard to

>move into tacts and intraverbals with PECS...but I've been told if you're

>creative...not impossible. Obviously, because there are clearly children

>who must use PECS to communicate. I'm just not going to spend anymore

>time with it. Manding was the most effective way to teach my

>son signs and visa-versa. He went from nonverbal to verbal in 3 weeks.

>A strong

>echoic with in 8 weeks and the beginnings of spontaneous manding. I

>learned of this on Nov. 5, 1999. We are now tacting and doing early

>intraverbals. I could not achieve this with PECS.

>

>Again, we are lucky are children are using the verbal and however we got

>them to God Bless it, but there is so much more for them to learn.

>Thanks for your thoughts and know I respect PECS and know there is a

>place for it in teaching our autistic children.

>

>

Unfortunately you do not say how old your child is, and I don't wish to

argue the merits of various communication systems, but I feel compelled to

say your child's progress is NOT necessarily the norm.

I know some kids who use sign, even signing the way the Verbal Behavior

Analysts suggest and do NOT pick up signs easily, and some are still

NONVERBAL. I know some who are lucky to have six signs that are

approximations at best and nobody outside of their program understands

them. Certainly, I hope this changes and the children are able to move to

better signing and echoics, etc. But, since I've been at this for over a

decade and known, many, many children in all kinds of programs and with all

levels of language or lack of, I feel pretty confident to say your

situation is an individual one, not representative of everyone's.

First of all, PECS can't be matching alone when a child takes an icon from

a board and book and travels upstairs with it, and asks you for an item

they have NOT seen. And it is no less manding than a sign or a word,

however, you are correct it is harder to move past manding, and do tacting

without having it be matching and use other concepts that are more

abstract, BUT, I also know that in general, teaching a concept like

BEAUTIFUL even with sign, even with words, usually happens after somebody

has already acquired a pretty strong volcabulary and it is not so hard to

teach an icon, even using a word and having them learn it. I know, because

I've seen some kids use some words that more abstract with their picture

icons to say, " I SEE A BIG HORSE. " and " The HORSE IS BROWN. "

I am not pretending it is easy, but obviously your child had a good echoic

in a short amount of time, had pretty good motor planning and sequencing

and learned some sign in a short amount of time and that's great. PECS is

probably more parent friendly, but I also think for a large group of kids

it is CHILD friendly. My son watches hands move and has no clue and has to

be taught and taught and taught, and still is struggling to motor the signs

in or not chain them back to back, etc. He can look at a photo icon of

something he hasn't been taught now, and if he likes it or wanted it, he

would exchange it without pre-teaching more than once or twice in order to

get what he wanted, because we realizes very fast that the icon gets him

what he wants and EVERYONE in the room knows what he wants. That said, I am

very interested in expanding and increasing my son's ASL volcabulary, but I

think you're generalizing and projecting your successes, and it always irks

me when people try to make determinations based on a consultants

generalizations. Will most kids learn sign done with care, practice and

intensity, ala Carbone style for instance, possibly, maybe probably, but

most kids will learn PECS as well, often in shorter amounts of times. Some

kids don't get PECS at all. And some don't get either. I just think that

you've been very lucky and worked real hard and it paid off, but I really

am uncomfortable having people make statements that most kids with autism

learn sign easily in comparison.

I have met VERY, VERY few kids who learned from nothing to echoic to

speaking in three weeks. That's a marvelous accomplishment and very unusual.

Jennie

[Guest guest]

Allow me to concede. I didn't mean to get anyone upset with my views and

I certainly can't spend time addressing this without taking away from my

son.

Good luck to you and I hope there isn't too hard of feelings. The last

thing

a mother with four children needs...one struggling with autism, is

enemies.

By the way, we do multiple interventions, so I am not closed to any

option to

help my son and perhaps the eclectic approach is the reason he is doing

well.

Blessings,

On Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:16:44 EST mbilek@... writes:

> From: mbilek@...

>

> Jennie-

> thanks for that last post--that's exactly how I feel. From my own

> experience, and what I've seen my friends go through with their

> autistic

> kids, I feel very strongly that parents should try EVERY form of

> communication with their child and use whatever works best FOR THEIR

> CHILD.

> Our kids seem to be even more unique in their learning styles than

> typical

> kids, and what works for one won't necessarily work for another. If

> you rule

> something out without trying it, or only use one method because it's

> " best "

> (theroretically), even if your child can't pick it up easily, you're

> hurting

> your child. , please don't think I'm saying you're not doing

> what's

> best for your child (obviously, you are) or that your observations

> about PECS

> and signing are wrong. I'm just saying (as I did in my very first

> post re:

> this subject) that I want other people to know that PECS is a viable

> option

> that shouldn't be dismissed without careful consideration and that

> it was a

> god-send for my son and some other kids I know.

>

> Becky

>

>

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> Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW!

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>

>

[Guest guest]

At 10:18 AM 3/8/00 -0600, A wrote:

>From: A <astralweeks1@...>

>

>Allow me to concede. I didn't mean to get anyone upset with my views and

>I certainly can't spend time addressing this without taking away from my

>son.

>Good luck to you and I hope there isn't too hard of feelings.

From my perspective, and probably the rest of us, hard feelings is too

strong a word. :-) Honestly, I don't mean to be difficult about this, or

make you feel defensive or as if you have to apologize, etc.

I am delighted your child has experienced such positive benefits and

without taking forever, believe me! I think I just wanted you to

understand, or perhaps consider and be open to the possiblity that we all

are doing the best we can, and sometimes the roads to getting to the best

place for our kids, is not the same road or to use a road metaphor, the

condition of the road, the speed limit and detours are not the same. I am

unable to go back in time and start again, and even if I could, I have no

guarantees, we would get your results.

I wish I had, could, or knew how to make things different, but if wishes

were horses. But, maybe we should all do instead of debating the issue in a

defensive or protective way, is to say, what was the most successful thing

you did to get echoics? How many hours did you put into manding? How do you

train your staff? And even then, not knowing where the starting line was,

it makes it hard to know whether it would pay off to the extent it has paid

off your little guy.

Listen, I know you've got a lot on your shoulders, working your butt off,

and I am so glad one more child has a viable means to communicate and a

chance at some kind of quality of life, some real freedom. I admit, I envy

you, and I also celebrate your son and his achievements and say BRAVO.

Jennie, not having hard feelings, just tired and somewaht defeated.

[Guest guest]

The topic was for S/P for totally nonverbal kids. My concern is for

children who never achieve verbal language. More advanced language

skills of children who might never speak is a real issue for some

parents. In sighting S/P beliefs I uspet set a few of you. I agree,

we|should be discussing and not debating. Using PECS, using signs,

using videos, using songs...what ever it takes to get a child talking is

great. But to me it is hopeful to a parent to know that their children

who may never become verbal have procedures that can still teach them to

engage in spontaneous, creative conversation.

Even more wonderful, is that those parents whose children may not speak

and haven't the capacity to use sign can communicate, and yes!, that is

with PECS. I don't know

if you saw the wonderful 9 year old boy who could not speak and was

taught to using

automatic pairing (a procedure developed by Sundberg) but it was amazing.

It made many of us cry. So even as we foolishly debate, there are

people out there on a daily basis trying to come up with ways to make it

better for our kids because, you are exactly right, one thing won't work

for all children. Regardless of our thoughts, I know our (you and me)

hearts are in this for those nonverbal children because we both thought

we had one.

On Wed, 08 Mar 2000 11:37:07 -0500 Jennie Ladew <jennie@...>

writes:

> From: Jennie Ladew <jennie@...>

>

> At 10:18 AM 3/8/00 -0600, A wrote:

> >From: A <astralweeks1@...>

> >

> >Allow me to concede. I didn't mean to get anyone upset with my

> views and

> >I certainly can't spend time addressing this without taking away

> from my

> >son.

> >Good luck to you and I hope there isn't too hard of feelings.

>

> From my perspective, and probably the rest of us, hard feelings is

> too

> strong a word. :-) Honestly, I don't mean to be difficult about

> this, or

> make you feel defensive or as if you have to apologize, etc.

>

> I am delighted your child has experienced such positive benefits and

> without taking forever, believe me! I think I just wanted you to

> understand, or perhaps consider and be open to the possiblity that

> we all

> are doing the best we can, and sometimes the roads to getting to the

> best

> place for our kids, is not the same road or to use a road metaphor,

> the

> condition of the road, the speed limit and detours are not the same.

> I am

> unable to go back in time and start again, and even if I could, I

> have no

> guarantees, we would get your results.

> I wish I had, could, or knew how to make things different, but if

> wishes

> were horses. But, maybe we should all do instead of debating the

> issue in a

> defensive or protective way, is to say, what was the most successful

> thing

> you did to get echoics? How many hours did you put into manding? How

> do you

> train your staff? And even then, not knowing where the starting line

> was,

> it makes it hard to know whether it would pay off to the extent it

> has paid

> off your little guy.

> Listen, I know you've got a lot on your shoulders, working your butt

> off,

> and I am so glad one more child has a viable means to communicate

> and a

> chance at some kind of quality of life, some real freedom. I admit,

> I envy

> you, and I also celebrate your son and his achievements and say

> BRAVO.

>

> Jennie, not having hard feelings, just tired and somewaht defeated.

>

>

>

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> Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW!

> 1/936/1/_/659983/_/952533412/

>

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>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/8/00 1:36:23 PM Central Standard Time,

astralweeks1@... writes:

> But to me it is hopeful to a parent to know that their children

> who may never become verbal have procedures that can still teach them to

> engage in spontaneous, creative conversation.

> Even more wonderful, is that those parents whose children may not speak

> and haven't the capacity to use sign can communicate

, Becky and others,

With systematic teaching most children can learn to communicate. For my

9YO son we are combining the use of a voice output device with some VBT/NET

procedures I am learning from the people on this list. Last night we were

sitting around the kitchen table after dinner when Colin interjected a

spontaneous comment to turn the conversation to him. He said, " I'm the only

one! " We asked him if he meant he was like Tigger in Winnie the Pooh. He

grinned and nodded and pointed to himself. Then he typed Tigger and

activated the device to speak " Tigger " as he continued to smile and say " ME "

in ASL.

This is all new ground. We will learn about it together by sharing our

experiences.

[Guest guest]

,

Thank you. This is a kid who has had 30-50 hours per week of therapy,

school and other intervention since before his third birthday. And he still

has a sense of humor!

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

I'm so moved thinking what an incredible moment that was for your

family, and especially for Colin. Here's to Colin, a toast to

a life time full of incredible moments. My best, .

> In a message dated 3/8/00 1:36:23 PM Central Standard Time,

> astralweeks1@... writes:

>

> > But to me it is hopeful to a parent to know that their children

> > who may never become verbal have procedures that can still teach

them to

> > engage in spontaneous, creative conversation.

> > Even more wonderful, is that those parents whose children may

not speak

> > and haven't the capacity to use sign can communicate

> , Becky and others,

> With systematic teaching most children can learn to

communicate. For my

> 9YO son we are combining the use of a voice output device with some

VBT/NET

> procedures I am learning from the people on this list. Last night

we were

> sitting around the kitchen table after dinner when Colin

interjected a

> spontaneous comment to turn the conversation to him. He said, "

I'm the only

> one! " We asked him if he meant he was like Tigger in Winnie the

Pooh. He

> grinned and nodded and pointed to himself. Then he typed Tigger

and

> activated the device to speak " Tigger " as he continued to smile and

say " ME "

> in ASL.

> This is all new ground. We will learn about it together by

sharing our

> experiences.

>

[Guest guest]

I think the use of PECS are easier to generalize across people. Not everyone

knows sign language, but most would be able to interpret an icon with ot

without a label.

[Guest guest]

-Hi !

In defense to a relentless mother who has tried numerous therapies

for her son, is doing what is WORKING for her son. Everyone is

right when they say you have to do what's right for YOUR child, but

if it's not working or progress has ceased...try something else.

My son had difficulty with signing & tantrummed like crazy. We took a

break from it for a week or so & tried to get him to echo words

(mand) for a couple of simple items he wanted (coke, candy, REALLY

reinforcing things). For my son it took waiting for his screaming to

cease & not giving him the item until he at least attempted to say

the word. To make a long story short, he's manding for most anything

now, & we added it to his ABA Program. We've heard several

spontaneous words that we hadn't previously hear before the manding.

P.S.- We did not use PECS. It didn't seem right for LANCE.

Sincerely,

Cheryl

-- In onelist, astralweeks1@j... wrote:

> Dear ,

> I'm so moved thinking what an incredible moment that was for your

> family, and especially for Colin. Here's to Colin, a toast to

> a life time full of incredible moments. My best, .

>

>

>

>

>

> > In a message dated 3/8/00 1:36:23 PM Central Standard Time,

> > astralweeks1@... writes:

> >

> > > But to me it is hopeful to a parent to know that their

children

> > > who may never become verbal have procedures that can still

teach

> them to

> > > engage in spontaneous, creative conversation.

> > > Even more wonderful, is that those parents whose children may

> not speak

> > > and haven't the capacity to use sign can communicate

> > , Becky and others,

> > With systematic teaching most children can learn to

> communicate. For my

> > 9YO son we are combining the use of a voice output device with

some

> VBT/NET

> > procedures I am learning from the people on this list. Last night

> we were

> > sitting around the kitchen table after dinner when Colin

> interjected a

> > spontaneous comment to turn the conversation to him. He said, "

> I'm the only

> > one! " We asked him if he meant he was like Tigger in Winnie the

> Pooh. He

> > grinned and nodded and pointed to himself. Then he typed Tigger

> and

> > activated the device to speak " Tigger " as he continued to smile

and

> say " ME "

> > in ASL.

> > This is all new ground. We will learn about it together by

> sharing our

> > experiences.

> >