New member!

[Guest guest]

,

I'm so grateful I discovered this when I did. While my health

definitely suffered, it could have been much worse!

I first became interested in veganism because of animal rights. I

read a book on the ethics of veganism and was first introduced to

factory farming.. I went vegan practically overnight. I had no idea

there was an alternative to factory farming. Of course, soon after I

read all about the health " benefits " of veganism, and that is why I

stayed vegan for so long. I didn't know any better- I ate a standard

diet growing up, so the animal foods I had been eating were

unhealthy, and that is what mainstream media was telling me as well.

Avoid saturated fat and cholesterol! They will kill you! And of

course there is an argument for any attack on veganism, so I was

pretty convinced. I eventually went raw (you want to talk about

going insane.... and the arguments raw foodists present are

really very scary.. but I bought into it for awhile. And, this is

not surprising, but it seems to me that raw foodism and anorexia

have a lot in common! Most raw foodists I have spoken to believe

that the less you eat, the better. And most adopt this diet with the

goal of becoming " pure " . It inevitably turns into an obsession; it

did for me and many of my friends who are still caught in this

unhealthy cycle. From what I've read, this is likely related to zinc

defiency, among other things. It's actually pretty fascinating..

having experiences so many symptoms and being able to trace them to

specific mineral deficiencies.

Anyway, I think I answered that question!

I'm glad you never had to endure veganism.

BTW, I believe that you can NEVER have too much butter!! ;D

Jackie

> >

> Hi Jackie! Welcome!

>

> I'm so glad that you discovered this way of eating before your

health

> suffered even more!

>

> When you became vegan, did you look into the health issues much, or

> did you mostly focus on the animal rights issues? I have two

friends

> who were vegan for many years. When they learned more about health,

> they made changes to their diets by adding back some animal foods.

> They feel so much better now. One of them, in particular, was

amazed

> at the difference (he was vegan for 6 years or so). Eggs really

saved him!

>

> I almost became vegan myself at one point. My love of dairy kept me

> from doing it, and then I found the WAPF and learned just how hard

it

> is on the body to eliminate all animal foods.

>

> Long live animal fats! I LOVE butter :-)

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/4/04 10:08:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

inlucescere@... writes:

I did see quite a few young people at the conference, so I guess I'm

not the only one with an enthusiasm for animal fat.

_____

~~~~~> There were waaaaaaaaay more young people there this year than last.

Last year, I don't think I even saw *anyone* who looked 20 +/- 4 years on the

first day, and saw a couple on Saturday. (I think a few may have been there,

but I didn't notice). This year, I saw late teens/early 20s people all over

the place.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/4/04 10:19:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

inlucescere@... writes:

Nice to meet you and thank you for the welcome!

You know, I think I might have seen you at the conference actually..

your name looks familiar. Did you work at any of the booths?

_____

~~~~> Yup. I worked at the info table on Saturday and the WAPF table on

Sunday, and if you were at the banquet you may have seen me go up, twice, once

when they called the volunteers up and once when they called the chapter leaders

up. I thought the same about you, but I really can't remember. A lot of

names would look familiar just from glancing at everyones name badges!

Chris

[Guest guest]

Hi Jackie,

One of my friends – an ex-vegan - was anorexic. Such strict diets are

perfect for people with eating disorders like that. It feels 'safe' to

know what you can and can't eat. I wonder about the influence of zinc

deficiency. I wish more research was put into that.

I'm very glad that I never became vegan, but I ate ultra low fat for

many years (at least I still had butter! I have always HATED

margarine). No longer!

Anyway, I hope you enjoy your time here. You write very well, and I

imagine that you'll have much to contribute!

[Guest guest]

Just wanted to say welcome Jackie. You'll find this is a great board

filled with lots of nice people and great information (so much so that

it can be hard to keep up with it!)

You're lucky to have found this diet at such a young age. I didn't

find it until I was almost 29. Thank goodness that was before I was

pregnant with my daughter.

I'm so jealous that you got to go to the conference. I would have

loved to have gone, but I'm waaay to far away. I'll have to schedule

a trip back home to NJ for the next one. I hope you and the others

will be sharing more on how it went.

Ciao,

Dawn

>

>

> Hello everyone,

>

> Just introducing myself. I'm Jackie, I'm 17 and one half years of

> age, and my passion is animal fat.

> heh.. I had the most amazing weekend at the WAPF conference. I

> highly reccomend it to anyone who hasn't been able to make it to one

> yet. I'm lucky enough to be in land, but I would say it is

> definitely worth the effort of traveling long distances.

>

> I found this lifestyle after being a dogmatic vegan for about 4

> years. I was infertile for nearly as long, and within a week of

> eating this way, my cycle returned. Personally, I never understood

> when women thought of their menses as a " curse " .. it always made me

> feel very in touch with my body and woman-ness.

>

> The improvement in my (mental, emotional, physical, as well as

> spiritual) health has been fast and dramatic. Needless to say, with

> the difference this has made in my life, I am very passionate about

> this lifestyle. It is really great to be a part of this movement

> towards sustainable community living, small farms, and whole, fresh,

> nourishing foods. I was amazed at the number of people at the

> conference! It is so great to spend time with likeminded people.

> Which is why I am here.

>

> I am looking forward to sharing thoughts, ideas, information, and

> support with you all!

>

> Ciao,

> Jackie

[Guest guest]

Hi Jackie, and welcome!

It is wonderful to have a teenager in our camp. I know so

many teenage girls who are going vegan or vegetarian,

even one who's only eight years old! And her mother is

searching the store for soy foods that she will like. Aaak.

It seems like the girls who think about it go vegan, and the

ones who don't think about it just stick with junk food. So

you rarely meet a teenage girl on a really good diet.

One thing to keep in mind is that a vegetarian diet can be

very healthy, and can also be raw or mostly raw. So you

don't have to come at people with " you must eat meat! "

You can talk about milk and eggs, about soaking grains,

avoiding soy, and so on at least without challenging their

anti-meat stance or even their raw stance. Also I like to

talk about farms. A lot of girls want to avoid milk

and eggs because of factory farm methods, and I agree

with them. Often they have no idea that milk and eggs

can be raised without cruelty.

Aven

[Guest guest]

,

> One of my friends – an ex-vegan - was anorexic. Such strict diets

are

> perfect for people with eating disorders like that. It

feels 'safe' to

> know what you can and can't eat. I wonder about the influence of

zinc

> deficiency. I wish more research was put into that.

If you're interested, just do a google search on " zinc deficiency "

and anorexia, and you will come up with a lot of websites. There are

other related deficiencies as well. I first read about zinc

deficiency being the cause for the " euphoria " most raw foodists

experience, which is supposedly the same high an anorexic

experiences.

> Anyway, I hope you enjoy your time here. You write very well, and I

> imagine that you'll have much to contribute!

Thank you!

Jackie

>

>

> Hi Jackie,

>

> One of my friends – an ex-vegan - was anorexic. Such strict diets

are

> perfect for people with eating disorders like that. It

feels 'safe' to

> know what you can and can't eat. I wonder about the influence of

zinc

> deficiency. I wish more research was put into that.

>

> I'm very glad that I never became vegan, but I ate ultra low fat

for

> many years (at least I still had butter! I have always HATED

> margarine). No longer!

>

> Anyway, I hope you enjoy your time here. You write very well, and I

> imagine that you'll have much to contribute!

>

>

[Guest guest]

> ~~~~~> There were waaaaaaaaay more young people there this year

than last.

> Last year,

It's great that more young people are coming every year. I imagine

more people in general are coming.. One woman was telling me the

number of people was practically doubling each year.

I was actually thinking that some of that may have to do with the

recent success of " the Maker's Diet " , which is a New York Times

bestseller.

In any case, it's wonderful that this information is getting out

there.

Jackie

> In a message dated 10/4/04 10:08:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> inlucescere@y... writes:

> I did see quite a few young people at the conference, so I guess

I'm

> not the only one with an enthusiasm for animal fat.

> _____

>

> ~~~~~> There were waaaaaaaaay more young people there this year

than last.

> Last year, I don't think I even saw *anyone* who looked 20 +/- 4

years on the

> first day, and saw a couple on Saturday. (I think a few may have

been there,

> but I didn't notice). This year, I saw late teens/early 20s

people all over

> the place.

>

> Chris

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> up. I thought the same about you, but I really can't remember. A

lot of

> names would look familiar just from glancing at everyones name

badges!

That's true. I probably did see you, but can't connect a face with

the name.

As for me, I was probably the only young person who looked about

14.

Jackie

> In a message dated 10/4/04 10:19:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> inlucescere@y... writes:

> Nice to meet you and thank you for the welcome!

> You know, I think I might have seen you at the conference

actually..

> your name looks familiar. Did you work at any of the booths?

> _____

>

> ~~~~> Yup. I worked at the info table on Saturday and the WAPF

table on

> Sunday, and if you were at the banquet you may have seen me go up,

twice, once

> when they called the volunteers up and once when they called the

chapter leaders

> up. I thought the same about you, but I really can't remember. A

lot of

> names would look familiar just from glancing at everyones name

badges!

>

> Chris

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Aven,

> It seems like the girls who think about it go vegan, and the

> ones who don't think about it just stick with junk food.

Yep, I'd say that's the case with many people, especially teenage

girls.

> One thing to keep in mind is that a vegetarian diet can be

> very healthy, and can also be raw or mostly raw. So you

> don't have to come at people with " you must eat meat! "

Well, a vegetarian is one thing. Telling them about raw grassfed

milk and eggs wouldn't be that extreme for them. Vegans, at least

the ones that I know, are another story-- it seems mention of milk

and eggs is nearly as blasphemous as meat. Many vegans won't touch

honey. Or use film which contains gelatin.

Although, at least telling them about soaking grains would be a good

first step.

Except for the raw vegans.

Thanks for the welcome!

Jackie

>

> Hi Jackie, and welcome!

> It is wonderful to have a teenager in our camp. I know so

> many teenage girls who are going vegan or vegetarian,

> even one who's only eight years old! And her mother is

> searching the store for soy foods that she will like. Aaak.

> It seems like the girls who think about it go vegan, and the

> ones who don't think about it just stick with junk food. So

> you rarely meet a teenage girl on a really good diet.

>

> One thing to keep in mind is that a vegetarian diet can be

> very healthy, and can also be raw or mostly raw. So you

> don't have to come at people with " you must eat meat! "

> You can talk about milk and eggs, about soaking grains,

> avoiding soy, and so on at least without challenging their

> anti-meat stance or even their raw stance. Also I like to

> talk about farms. A lot of girls want to avoid milk

> and eggs because of factory farm methods, and I agree

> with them. Often they have no idea that milk and eggs

> can be raised without cruelty.

>

> Aven

[Guest guest]

For the sake of vegans- I'm sure there are many who aren't so close-

minded. That has just been my experience.

> >

> > Hi Jackie, and welcome!

> > It is wonderful to have a teenager in our camp. I know so

> > many teenage girls who are going vegan or vegetarian,

> > even one who's only eight years old! And her mother is

> > searching the store for soy foods that she will like. Aaak.

> > It seems like the girls who think about it go vegan, and the

> > ones who don't think about it just stick with junk food. So

> > you rarely meet a teenage girl on a really good diet.

> >

> > One thing to keep in mind is that a vegetarian diet can be

> > very healthy, and can also be raw or mostly raw. So you

> > don't have to come at people with " you must eat meat! "

> > You can talk about milk and eggs, about soaking grains,

> > avoiding soy, and so on at least without challenging their

> > anti-meat stance or even their raw stance. Also I like to

> > talk about farms. A lot of girls want to avoid milk

> > and eggs because of factory farm methods, and I agree

> > with them. Often they have no idea that milk and eggs

> > can be raised without cruelty.

> >

> > Aven

[Guest guest]

> Re: new member!

>

>

>

>

>Aven,

>

>> It seems like the girls who think about it go vegan, and the

>> ones who don't think about it just stick with junk food.

>Well, a vegetarian is one thing. Telling them about raw grassfed

>milk and eggs wouldn't be that extreme for them. Vegans, at least

>the ones that I know, are another story-- it seems mention of milk

>and eggs is nearly as blasphemous as meat. Many vegans won't touch

>honey. Or use film which contains gelatin.

You should tell them to stop using telephones, don't fly on airplanes, don't

live in houses, etc as these (among many other common objects) contain beef

products (as per Sally's Friday lecture). Perhaps they could live in a

bubble...(made from vegetarian gelatin <g>).

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

> You should tell them to stop using telephones, don't fly on

airplanes, don't

> live in houses, etc as these (among many other common objects)

contain beef

> products (as per Sally's Friday lecture). Perhaps they could live

in a

> bubble...(made from vegetarian gelatin <g>).

LOL

Yep, most vegans/vegetarians are aware that they can't change their

dependence on animal products. There are probably some who have

managed, though.

Unfortunately anyone who is far enough into it to stop using film

has probably already been convinced about veganism from a health

standpoint.

I recall a Robbins video.. a doctor was holding a 10 lb chunk

of fat, and was basically saying that if you eat animal products,

you will have THIS stored all over your body.

Jackie

>

> > Re: new member!

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >Aven,

> >

> >> It seems like the girls who think about it go vegan, and the

> >> ones who don't think about it just stick with junk food.

>

> >Well, a vegetarian is one thing. Telling them about raw grassfed

> >milk and eggs wouldn't be that extreme for them. Vegans, at least

> >the ones that I know, are another story-- it seems mention of milk

> >and eggs is nearly as blasphemous as meat. Many vegans won't touch

> >honey. Or use film which contains gelatin.

>

> You should tell them to stop using telephones, don't fly on

airplanes, don't

> live in houses, etc as these (among many other common objects)

contain beef

> products (as per Sally's Friday lecture). Perhaps they could live

in a

> bubble...(made from vegetarian gelatin <g>).

>

>

> Suze Fisher

> Lapdog Design, Inc.

> Web Design & Development

> http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

> Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

> http://www.westonaprice.org

>

> ----------------------------

> " The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol

cause

> heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our

times. " --

> Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at

Vanderbilt

> University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

>

> The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

> <http://www.thincs.org>

> ----------------------------

>

> >

[Guest guest]

This thread reminded me of a tiny anecdote I can mention. The other

day I was in a random conversation with two early 20-something girls

in Baltimore who were eating some " nachos and cheese " with " cheese

wiz " type fake cheese sauce they had just gotten from a convenience

store. They offered me some, and I was like " no way, ever since I

was a kid that fake cheese stuff has totally grossed me out... " (which

is very true, possibly more so than any other " food " substance), and

with a mild hint of defending it or something, one of them remarked

" it's totally vegan " . I just looked at her and smiled with a polite

" hmmm " because I wasn't in the mood for food and health conversation.

(They didn't know anything about my food lifestyle.) But anyway,

that's like so classic for the " junk food vegan " thing. It's almost

comical, but there's a good chance that they conceptualize it as

" decent food " , just like all the vegans who feel healthwisely virtuous

for eating bagels and bread!

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/5/04 8:13:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

inlucescere@... writes:

I first read about zinc

deficiency being the cause for the " euphoria " most raw foodists

experience, which is supposedly the same high an anorexic

experiences.

____

~~~~> Wow, I only wish I got " euphoria " when I was eating a zinc-deficient

vegan diet instead of paranoid delusions and irrational fits of anger! Lol!

Chris

[Guest guest]

Oh, forgot to answer... yes, the conference was worth the drive!

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/5/04 8:18:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

inlucescere@... writes:

That's true. I probably did see you, but can't connect a face with

the name.

____

~~~~> Well, there are some photos of me in the photo section, but you may not

recognize me, since I had my shirt on at the conference. ;-)

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/5/04 8:39:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

Perhaps they could live in a

bubble...(made from vegetarian gelatin <g>).

_____

~~~~> They could probably make the bubble from agar-agar, which is a seaweed

substitute for gelatin.

Chirs

[Guest guest]

--- In , " inlucescere " <inlucescere@y...>

wrote:

>

> For the sake of vegans- I'm sure there are many who aren't so close-

> minded. That has just been my experience.

I was a vegan because I thought it was the most healthy

way to eat for a while - but I never close my mind to the

possibility that I'm wrong. So we shouldn't assume that

vegans are closed-minded.

Aven

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/5/04 7:19:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ChrisMasterjohn

writes:

~~~~> Well, there are some photos of me in the photo section, but you may not

recognize me, since I had my shirt on at the conference. ;-)

____

~~~~> Oh... and the new photos are in the " eat fat gain muscle " folder, not

the other one (like " photos of chris " or some such thing... that's the old

pics.)

Chris

[Guest guest]

> This thread reminded me of a tiny anecdote I can mention. The

other

> day I was in a random conversation with two early 20-something

girls

> in Baltimore who were eating some " nachos and cheese "

hey, I live in Baltimore!

I was a junk food vegan for the first 6 months. Well, I did buy my

junk at the health food store.

Most people know little about nutrition and health.. but more

importantly, I think it takes a shift in awareness. Many people

abuse their bodies with food, among other things. I definitely

have.. I think that my reasons for going vegan were not about loving

my body.. rather, purifying it, and I ended up pretty fanatical

about my diet. So in that sense, I don't see it as just a lack of

education about nutrition, though that is definitely an important

aspect of it. In our culture most of us are conditioned to believe

we are inadequate, and if we just perfect ourselves and acquire a

lot of " stuff " , we will be happy. This must have an influence on the

way people see food. Growing up I only looked at food in terms of

taste, and as I got a little bit older and began to feel the

pressure to be thin and attractive, I thought about what would make

me fat, and then as a teenager I began to focus on what would make

me " healthy " , though it was still with the drive of feeling

imperfect and wanting to find salvation through diet.

Anyway, I think that is an important point when talking about the

crap people are eating these days.

Loving oneself is a crucial part of truly nourishing the body.

That's my rant for tonight.. I could have said a lot more.

It's really interesting to me.. it seems that this is at the core of

how people choose to live their lives, and it's really at the core

of how our society is run; in a state of fear. Of course, everyone

is affected differently by this, but I believe it is something most

people have experienced and have to transcend.

Jackie

> This thread reminded me of a tiny anecdote I can mention. The

other

> day I was in a random conversation with two early 20-something

girls

> in Baltimore who were eating some " nachos and cheese " with " cheese

> wiz " type fake cheese sauce they had just gotten from a convenience

> store. They offered me some, and I was like " no way, ever since I

> was a kid that fake cheese stuff has totally grossed me out... "

(which

> is very true, possibly more so than any other " food " substance),

and

> with a mild hint of defending it or something, one of them remarked

> " it's totally vegan " . I just looked at her and smiled with a

polite

> " hmmm " because I wasn't in the mood for food and health

conversation.

> (They didn't know anything about my food lifestyle.) But anyway,

> that's like so classic for the " junk food vegan " thing. It's

almost

> comical, but there's a good chance that they conceptualize it as

> " decent food " , just like all the vegans who feel healthwisely

virtuous

> for eating bagels and bread!

>

> Mike

> SE Pennsylvania

>

> The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

> ~~~~> Wow, I only wish I got " euphoria " when I was eating a zinc-

deficient

> vegan diet instead of paranoid delusions and irrational fits of

anger! Lol!

hehe.. well, I personally experienced both.

Zinc deficiency is also related to depression and anxiety.

And of course there are so many other common deficiencies in a vegan

diet. I was b12 deficient, so much so that I didn't have reflexes!

> Oh, forgot to answer... yes, the conference was worth the drive!

It was a rhetorical question! ;D

> ~~~~> Well, there are some photos of me in the photo section, but

you may not

> recognize me, since I had my shirt on at the conference. ;-)

Actually I do recognize you! Yep, I think I saw you working at the

WAPF booth, or just walking around. BTW, you are a very good

testament to the benefits of a high fat traditional diet. ;D

> ~~~~> They could probably make the bubble from agar-agar, which is

a seaweed

> substitute for gelatin.

Lol! I was thinking the same thing earlier today.

Jackie

> In a message dated 10/5/04 8:39:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> s.fisher22@v... writes:

> Perhaps they could live in a

> bubble...(made from vegetarian gelatin <g>).

> _____

>

> ~~~~> They could probably make the bubble from agar-agar, which is

a seaweed

> substitute for gelatin.

>

> Chirs

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> I was a vegan because I thought it was the most healthy

> way to eat for a while - but I never close my mind to the

> possibility that I'm wrong. So we shouldn't assume that

> vegans are closed-minded.

>

> Aven

Yes, exactly.

That was the reason I posted that.. there are definitely some vegans

who aren't close-minded. Maybe I just know the long term vegans who

are zinc deficient. ;D

> >

> > For the sake of vegans- I'm sure there are many who aren't so

close-

> > minded. That has just been my experience.

>

> I was a vegan because I thought it was the most healthy

> way to eat for a while - but I never close my mind to the

> possibility that I'm wrong. So we shouldn't assume that

> vegans are closed-minded.

>

> Aven

[Guest guest]

Welcome Corrina! I have dexamethasone drops but haven't used them in

a long time. They are originally for eyes. I had to put the drops in

and lay on the bed upside down for five minutes. They stung like

crazy! I haven't thought about them til you mentioned they might

help with the ansomia. Trudy.

> Hiya,

>

> I've just recently come across this site and find it really

useful.

> I've had no sense of smell on and off for about 5 years.

Currently,

> after visiting a third ENT specialist (the first one didn't even

> notice the polyps somehow although on my second visit they were

> spotted!), I have my sense of smell back - he prescribed betnesol

> (steroid drops). It seems to have come back fully for the last 2

> weeks but today is my last day of taking the drops and I'm afraid

> it'll go again.

>

> Has anyone else had this experience and if so has anyone been able

to

> retain sense of smell after taking steroid treatments. The ENT doc

> has given me nasonex to take from today on but in the past this

> hasn't really worked.

>

> Any ideas? I really don't want to lose it again after being able

to

> actually choose perfum for the first time in ages!

>

> Cheers

>

>

> Corrina

[Guest guest]

Hi ! I have a 16 year old son with aspergers. He remembers

things from a long time ago, even when he was real little, like 1 year

old. I will ask him tonight if he wants to talk to you by writing on

this site!

-Sara