Re: Advice requested on alpha theta training

[Guest guest]

Connie,If it makes you feel worse, stop doing it.  Keep training what helps.  In a while you may try AT again and see what happens.  When your brain is ready for it, it will feel fine.Pete--

Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 10:56 PM, conniewelsh2 <conniewelsh@...> wrote:

 

I have done well with alpha up training at P4 and doing the windowed squash at T3 and T4. However, when I do alpha theta training, I feel bad afterwards. I do not get into a deep state and this last time, my hibeta's went way up.

I did have some memories surface during my last session but did feel bad today. I even did my typical training afterward when I saw the hibeta issue.

Any suggestions? I can't get alpha near as high as I do with my alpha up training and the alpha theta training seems to frustrate me.

Since I have been treating trauma for the last 18 months, I would like to figure out how to use neruofeedback to help and read that alpha theta is a good tool to use with trauma but don't want to make my clients feel worse.

[Guest guest]

Connie,

This is from limited observations on my part in experimenting with alpha, alpha-theta, and beta training. There can be an inverse relationship between frontal and posterior alpha. When posterior alpha is trained up then you can expect to see frontal alpha decrease in amplitude. However, some trainers have up trained frontal, central and posterior alpha concurrently.

There is also an inverse relationship between alpha and beta brainwaves. If you train beta down you can expect to see an alpha increase. If you train alpha up you can expect to see a beta decrease in amplitude. Both of these brainwaves need to be monitored if you are training one or the other. Training can be problematic. You may see a beta rebound when the down training in beta range is too aggressive, i.e., 50-80% reward level with low (250 ms) delay.

Example: Client (42 year-old male); goal was to reduce beta at Pz. Beta at Pz was excessive and there was frontal alpha. We decreased the beta, and in the first session and he had an incredible outcome. However, two days later we did another training session and he had a beta rebound that increased his beta amplitude more than twice the original amplitude. Needless to say, he didn't feel well, but didn't want to do any more training that day. The next session, the next day, we did the same training to reduce beta at Pz with less aggressiveness and the beta only came down a little, because of the milder training, but he felt much better. The next few sessions he continued to bring the beta down, but not to the level at which he started, but he was feeling much better, better then when we started even though the beta was still higher. When we got to the point where we were training beta lower than the original beta level, he felt he was losing energy and wanted to stop and we did.

With another client the goal was to reduce beta at Pz. He had a prior condition of excessive beta and an alpha disorder. The beta came down some and alpha normalized but caused an adverse reaction because of the change in the abnormal alpha.

You really need to go slow when down training beta to avoid the rebound effect and you also need to watch the alpha. It sounds like the alpha training may have caused a beta rebound effect through the inverse relationship between the two brainwaves.

A final note about alpha and alpha-theta training; it is more effective if it is done later in the day when you are more sleepy, making it is easier to transition from alpha into theta and get into cross-over (the hypnogogic state). The training room should be "dark" and "quite." This is very important. If you are self training then you need to use a sleep mask (to avoid peeking) and have someone help setup and monitor the equipment. It also helps to close your eyes (using sleep mask) and practice your positive affirmations for 5-10 minutes before training starts, all the time remaining in an eyes closed condition.

In Les Femhi's work he notes that with the open-focus training and synchrony work that the dividing line is at 15 Hz, i.e., 5-15 Hz and 15-45 Hz. When doing the open-focus training the higher frequency brain waves (15-45 Hz) decline and the lower frequency brainwaves (5-15 Hz) increase. His new book, "The Open-Focus Brain" co-authored with Jim Robins is well written and after reading it, I am beginning to understand and appreciate his work much more.

Best Regards,

JD Elder

[Guest guest]

JD, Thanks for the tip on Open Focus Brain!

tommi

>

> Connie,

>

> This is from limited observations on my part in experimenting with alpha,

alpha-theta, and beta training. There can be an inverse relationship between

frontal and posterior alpha. When posterior alpha is trained up then you can

expect to see frontal alpha decrease in amplitude. However, some trainers have

up trained frontal, central and posterior alpha concurrently.

>

> There is also an inverse relationship between alpha and beta brainwaves.

If you train beta down you can expect to see an alpha increase. If you train

alpha up you can expect to see a beta decrease in amplitude. Both of these

brainwaves need to be monitored if you are training one or the other. Training

can be problematic. You may see a beta rebound when the down training in beta

range is too aggressive, i.e., 50-80% reward level with low (250 ms) delay.

>

> Example: Client (42 year-old male); goal was to reduce beta at Pz. Beta at

Pz was excessive and there was frontal alpha. We decreased the beta, and in the

first session and he had an incredible outcome. However, two days later we did

another training session and he had a beta rebound that increased his beta

amplitude more than twice the original amplitude. Needless to say, he didn't

feel well, but didn't want to do any more training that day. The next session,

the next day, we did the same training to reduce beta at Pz with less

aggressiveness and the beta only came down a little, because of the milder

training, but he felt much better. The next few sessions he continued to bring

the beta down, but not to the level at which he started, but he was feeling much

better, better then when we started even though the beta was still higher. When

we got to the point where we were training beta lower than the original beta

level, he felt he was losing energy and wanted to stop and we did.

>

> With another client the goal was to reduce beta at Pz. He had a prior

condition of excessive beta and an alpha disorder. The beta came down some and

alpha normalized but caused an adverse reaction because of the change in the

abnormal alpha.

>

> You really need to go slow when down training beta to avoid the rebound

effect and you also need to watch the alpha. It sounds like the alpha training

may have caused a beta rebound effect through the inverse relationship between

the two brainwaves.

>

> A final note about alpha and alpha-theta training; it is more effective if

it is done later in the day when you are more sleepy, making it is easier to

transition from alpha into theta and get into cross-over (the hypnogogic state).

The training room should be " dark " and " quite. " This is very important. If you

are self training then you need to use a sleep mask (to avoid peeking) and have

someone help setup and monitor the equipment. It also helps to close your eyes

(using sleep mask) and practice your positive affirmations for 5-10 minutes

before training starts, all the time remaining in an eyes closed condition.

>

> In Les Femhi's work he notes that with the open-focus training and

synchrony work that the dividing line is at 15 Hz, i.e., 5-15 Hz and 15-45 Hz.

When doing the open-focus training the higher frequency brain waves (15-45 Hz)

decline and the lower frequency brainwaves (5-15 Hz) increase. His new book,

" The Open-Focus Brain " co-authored with Jim Robins is well written and after

reading it, I am beginning to understand and appreciate his work much more.

>

> Best Regards,

>

> JD Elder

>

[Guest guest]

Pete, are you thinking that my brain is not calm enough to

do it?

I have done over 100 sessions using your protocols and they have

been wonderful. My main concern is that I have been training for 18

months and if I am not ready, how long would it take to treat someone

with trauma or substance abuse issues. I know that their brains are much

more anxious than mine and my understanding is that alpha theta is a

significant protocol for these issues.

What do you think? I have no problem with me stopping it

all together but I do not have substance abuse or trauma issues. I am

concerned about my potential clients.

Just to clarify my concern: I am hearing from you that

alpha theta is not always appropriate and also concerned that I now do not know

how to treat substance abuse and trauma issues if this protocol is not

appropriate.

Maybe the issue is that I do not need it. I really have

come a long way with just the protocols that you have given me.

Thanks for your input. I have been doing the protocols

that you gave me for my mother and law and myself for 18 months. (of

course now very rarely since they worked so well)

Connie

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf

Of Van Deusen

Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 11:11 PM

Subject: Re: Advice requested on alpha theta training

Connie,

If it makes you feel worse, stop doing it. Keep training what

helps. In a while you may try AT again and see what happens. When

your brain is ready for it, it will feel fine.

Pete

--

Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...

http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 10:56 PM, conniewelsh2 <conniewelsh@...>

wrote:

I have done well with alpha up training at P4 and

doing the windowed squash at T3 and T4. However, when I do alpha theta

training, I feel bad afterwards. I do not get into a deep state and this last

time, my hibeta's went way up.

I did have some memories surface during my last session but did feel bad today.

I even did my typical training afterward when I saw the hibeta issue.

Any suggestions? I can't get alpha near as high as I do with my alpha up

training and the alpha theta training seems to frustrate me.

Since I have been treating trauma for the last 18 months, I would like to

figure out how to use neruofeedback to help and read that alpha theta is a good

tool to use with trauma but don't want to make my clients feel worse.

[Guest guest]

JD

Thanks so much for the response. I would like

to ask your opinion on something. I have been doing alpha up at p4 for

months and months and I love it. However, I do not see the inverse

relationship with alpha and beta. When my alpha goes up so does my

beta. Not proportionally so I still feel very relaxed.

Also, my betas seem to settle lower after the

session. So my alphas are really up and my betas are down from the

previous session.

I think my beta oriented brain figures out how to raise the

alpha and I am not really letting go even though my alphas are really high.

I know I can raise my alpha by thinking of good things visually (not in words)

and it works. When I was doing alpha theta, I could raise the theta

by taking memories that would pop in my brain and explore them visually.

The only protocol that I truly do not think with is the T3 T4

squash.

My beta oriented brain is attempting to figure this outJ

Thanks, Connie

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf

Of JD Elder

Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 8:36 AM

Subject: Re: Advice requested on alpha theta training

Connie,

This

is from limited observations on my part in experimenting with alpha,

alpha-theta, and beta training. There can be an inverse relationship between

frontal and posterior alpha. When posterior alpha is trained up then you can expect

to see frontal alpha decrease in amplitude. However, some trainers have up

trained frontal, central and posterior alpha concurrently.

There

is also an inverse relationship between alpha and beta brainwaves. If you train

beta down you can expect to see an alpha increase. If you train alpha up you

can expect to see a beta decrease in amplitude. Both of these brainwaves need

to be monitored if you are training one or the other. Training can be

problematic. You may see a beta rebound when the down training in beta

range is too aggressive, i.e., 50-80% reward level with low (250 ms) delay.

Example:

Client (42 year-old male); goal was to reduce beta at Pz. Beta at Pz

was excessive and there was frontal alpha. We decreased the beta, and in the

first session and he had an incredible outcome. However, two days later we did

another training session and he had a beta rebound that increased his beta

amplitude more than twice the original amplitude. Needless to say, he didn't

feel well, but didn't want to do any more training that day. The next session,

the next day, we did the same training to reduce beta at Pz with less

aggressiveness and the beta only came down a little, because of the milder

training, but he felt much better. The next few sessions he continued to bring

the beta down, but not to the level at which he started, but he was feeling

much better, better then when we started even though the beta was still

higher. When we got to the point where we were training beta lower than the

original beta level, he felt he was losing energy and wanted to stop and we did.

With

another client the goal was to reduce beta at Pz. He had a prior condition of

excessive beta and an alpha disorder. The beta came down some and alpha

normalized but caused an adverse reaction because of the change in the

abnormal alpha.

You

really need to go slow when down training beta to avoid the rebound effect and

you also need to watch the alpha. It sounds like the

alpha training may have caused a beta rebound effect through the inverse

relationship between the two brainwaves.

A

final note about alpha and alpha-theta training; it is more effective if it is

done later in the day when you are more sleepy, making it is easier to

transition from alpha into theta and get into cross-over (the hypnogogic

state). The training room should be " dark " and " quite. "

This is very important. If you are self training then you need to use a sleep

mask (to avoid peeking) and have someone help setup and monitor the equipment.

It also helps to close your eyes (using sleep mask) and practice your positive

affirmations for 5-10 minutes before training starts, all the time remaining in

an eyes closed condition.

In

Les Femhi's work he notes that with the open-focus training and synchrony work

that the dividing line is at 15 Hz, i.e., 5-15 Hz and 15-45 Hz. When doing the

open-focus training the higher frequency brain waves (15-45 Hz) decline and the

lower frequency brainwaves (5-15 Hz) increase. His new book, " The

Open-Focus Brain " co-authored with Jim Robins is well written and after

reading it, I am beginning to understand and appreciate his work much more.

Best

Regards,

JD

Elder

[Guest guest]

Connie,

I agree, when I am observing a long term (30 minutes) trend line graph and monitoring alpha and beta, while trying to down train beta, for the most part they go in the same direction and very rarely do the lines diverge from one another (less that 1% of the time). For example, if I am attempting to down train beta, I usually see a decrease in alpha during the training process, and if I am trying to increase alpha, initially I tend to see an increase of alpha with eyes closed. But when up training alpha with eyes closed, as sleepiness sets in (5-15 minutes into training) the alpha will decline despite the training to increase its amplitude and we see a trend line similar to that with alpha-theta training where theta will come up, to a lesser degree, while alpha decreases significantly in amplitude to the point where they cross-over. With continued training, the general effect will increase alpha amplitude.

During alpha-theta training the up training of alpha appears to have more effect at cross-over, when the louder theta bongs along with the alpha up training reward sounds, slightly awakens the client; this allows the client to stay in and hold a slightly alpha state, close to cross-over, which is the ideal hynogogic state, and allows the client to practice their positive affirmations and hypnotic suggestions.

To actually see the long term outcome of training, I see changes similar to what you describe, but I really don't notice them unless I take a baseline, to use for comparison, for 2-3 minutes prior to starting each of the following training sessions.

It is really fun to see alpha rise when a person is having good thoughts and and see it decline when they are having stressful thoughts. One of the young men I was doing beta down training with; when he would think about our local university winning their football game the week before, his alpha would rise significantly. And when he thought about next week's game where there was a strong likelihood that the team would lose, his alpha would go down. I also recall giving him open-focus exercises, having him imagining different space relationships/non-relationships, and it was a very reliable way to get alpha to rise. I was able to see a divergence in the long term trend lines where alpha would go up and the beta line would go down, when the desired training effect was to down train beta. The client was able to manifest the inverse training relationship using the open-focus exercises.

I shouldn't have been so dogmatic in my statement about the inverse relationship between alpha and beta. I was having tunnel vision thinking about the cognitive literature that shows a decline in alpha and an increase in beta waves when we engage in a task. I was also thinking about the open-focus training that attempts to develop "flexibility" in focus/attention. Les Femhi's book, "The Open-Focus Brain," has done much to reveal this inverse relationship and is very worthwhile reading. I have attended a couple of Dr. Femhi's presentations and purchased one of his earlier books and I really didn't appreciate the meaningfulness of his work, despite his effort to teach and my effort to learn. It wasn't until I started doing alpha and beta training and started reading his last book that I gained a greater appreciation of what he was trying to share. He has been doing this training for several decades and really believes in it. I think his co-author, Jim Robbins has done much to clarify the meaning of the "open-focus" concept and make it more understandable. It my view, it is a major concept worth learning and as meaningful to me now as breathing training has been. Open-Focus exercises should be part of any home training program just as learning breathing exercises. They are both "valuable life skills" that will break the stress reaction and return us to a healthful homeostasis.

Best Regards,

JD Elder

JD

Thanks so much for the response. I would like to ask your opinion on something. I have been doing alpha up at p4 for months and months and I love it. However, I do not see the inverse relationship with alpha and beta. When my alpha goes up so does my beta. Not proportionally so I still feel very relaxed.

Also, my betas seem to settle lower after the session. So my alphas are really up and my betas are down from the previous session.

I think my beta oriented brain figures out how to raise the alpha and I am not really letting go even though my alphas are really high. I know I can raise my alpha by thinking of good things visually (not in words) and it works. When I was doing alpha theta, I could raise the theta by taking memories that would pop in my brain and explore them visually.

The only protocol that I truly do not think with is the T3 T4 squash.

My beta oriented brain is attempting to figure this outJ

Thanks, Connie

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of JD ElderSent: Monday, July 27, 2009 8:36 AM Subject: Re: Advice requested on alpha theta training

Connie,

This is from limited observations on my part in experimenting with alpha, alpha-theta, and beta training. There can be an inverse relationship between frontal and posterior alpha. When posterior alpha is trained up then you can expect to see frontal alpha decrease in amplitude. However, some trainers have up trained frontal, central and posterior alpha concurrently.

There is also an inverse relationship between alpha and beta brainwaves. If you train beta down you can expect to see an alpha increase. If you train alpha up you can expect to see a beta decrease in amplitude. Both of these brainwaves need to be monitored if you are training one or the other. Training can be problematic. You may see a beta rebound when the down training in beta range is too aggressive, i.e., 50-80% reward level with low (250 ms) delay.

Example: Client (42 year-old male); goal was to reduce beta at Pz. Beta at Pz was excessive and there was frontal alpha. We decreased the beta, and in the first session and he had an incredible outcome. However, two days later we did another training session and he had a beta rebound that increased his beta amplitude more than twice the original amplitude. Needless to say, he didn't feel well, but didn't want to do any more training that day. The next session, the next day, we did the same training to reduce beta at Pz with less aggressiveness and the beta only came down a little, because of the milder training, but he felt much better. The next few sessions he continued to bring the beta down, but not to the level at which he started, but he was feeling much better, better then when we started even though the beta was still higher. When we got to the point where we were training beta lower than the original beta level, he felt he was losing energy and wanted to stop and we did.

With another client the goal was to reduce beta at Pz. He had a prior condition of excessive beta and an alpha disorder. The beta came down some and alpha normalized but caused an adverse reaction because of the change in the abnormal alpha.

You really need to go slow when down training beta to avoid the rebound effect and you also need to watch the alpha. It sounds like the alpha training may have caused a beta rebound effect through the inverse relationship between the two brainwaves.

A final note about alpha and alpha-theta training; it is more effective if it is done later in the day when you are more sleepy, making it is easier to transition from alpha into theta and get into cross-over (the hypnogogic state). The training room should be "dark" and "quite." This is very important. If you are self training then you need to use a sleep mask (to avoid peeking) and have someone help setup and monitor the equipment. It also helps to close your eyes (using sleep mask) and practice your positive affirmations for 5-10 minutes before training starts, all the time remaining in an eyes closed condition.

In Les Femhi's work he notes that with the open-focus training and synchrony work that the dividing line is at 15 Hz, i.e., 5-15 Hz and 15-45 Hz. When doing the open-focus training the higher frequency brain waves (15-45 Hz) decline and the lower frequency brainwaves (5-15 Hz) increase. His new book, "The Open-Focus Brain" co-authored with Jim Robins is well written and after reading it, I am beginning to understand and appreciate his work much more.

Best Regards,

JD Elder

[Guest guest]

Thanks so much!! I have ordered the book and am awaiting

it’s arrival. I am starting a practice in January and am looking

for everything I can to help my clients get benefits. I am excited to

learn the open focus technique to teach to my clients.

Connie

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf

Of JD Elder

Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 6:28 AM

Subject: Re: Advice requested on alpha theta training

Connie,

I agree, when I am

observing a long term (30 minutes) trend line graph and monitoring alpha and

beta, while trying to down train beta, for the most part they go in the same

direction and very rarely do the lines diverge from one another (less that 1%

of the time). For example, if I am attempting to down train beta, I usually see

a decrease in alpha during the training process, and if I am trying to

increase alpha, initially I tend to see an increase of alpha with eyes closed.

But when up training alpha with eyes closed, as sleepiness sets in (5-15

minutes into training) the alpha will decline despite the training to

increase its amplitude and we see a trend line similar to that with alpha-theta

training where theta will come up, to a lesser degree, while alpha decreases

significantly in amplitude to the point where they cross-over. With continued

training, the general effect will increase alpha amplitude.

During alpha-theta training

the up training of alpha appears to have more effect at cross-over,

when the louder theta bongs along with the alpha up training reward sounds,

slightly awakens the client; this allows the client to stay in and hold a

slightly alpha state, close to cross-over, which is the ideal hynogogic state,

and allows the client to practice their positive affirmations and hypnotic

suggestions.

To actually see the long

term outcome of training, I see changes similar to what you describe, but

I really don't notice them unless I take a baseline, to use for comparison, for

2-3 minutes prior to starting each of the following training

sessions.

It is really fun to see

alpha rise when a person is having good thoughts and and see it decline when

they are having stressful thoughts. One of the young men I was doing beta down

training with; when he would think about our local university winning their

football game the week before, his alpha would rise significantly. And when he

thought about next week's game where there was a strong likelihood that

the team would lose, his alpha would go down. I also recall giving him

open-focus exercises, having him imagining different space relationships/non-relationships,

and it was a very reliable way to get alpha to rise. I was able to see a

divergence in the long term trend lines where alpha would go up and the beta

line would go down, when the desired training effect was to down train beta.

The client was able to manifest the inverse training relationship using the

open-focus exercises.

I shouldn't have been so

dogmatic in my statement about the inverse relationship between alpha and beta.

I was having tunnel vision thinking about the cognitive literature that shows a

decline in alpha and an increase in beta waves when we engage in a

task. I was also thinking about the open-focus training that attempts to

develop " flexibility " in focus/attention. Les Femhi's book, " The

Open-Focus Brain, " has done much to reveal this inverse relationship

and is very worthwhile reading. I have attended a couple of Dr. Femhi's

presentations and purchased one of his earlier books and I really didn't

appreciate the meaningfulness of his work, despite his effort to teach and my

effort to learn. It wasn't until I started doing alpha and beta

training and started reading his last book that I gained a greater appreciation

of what he was trying to share. He has been doing this training for several

decades and really believes in it. I think his co-author, Jim Robbins has done

much to clarify the meaning of the " open-focus " concept and make

it more understandable. It my view, it is a major concept worth learning and as

meaningful to me now as breathing training has been. Open-Focus exercises

should be part of any home training program just as learning breathing

exercises. They are both " valuable life skills " that will break

the stress reaction and return us to a healthful homeostasis.

Best Regards,

JD Elder

JD

Thanks so much for the response.

I would like to ask your opinion on something. I have been

doing alpha up at p4 for months and months and I love it. However,

I do not see the inverse relationship with alpha and beta. When my alpha

goes up so does my beta. Not proportionally so I still feel very relaxed.

Also, my betas seem to settle

lower after the session. So my alphas are really up and my betas are down

from the previous session.

I think my beta oriented brain figures

out how to raise the alpha and I am not really letting go even though my alphas

are really high. I know I can raise my alpha by thinking of good things

visually (not in words) and it works. When I was doing alpha theta,

I could raise the theta by taking memories that would pop in my brain and

explore them visually.

The only protocol that I truly do not

think with is the T3 T4 squash.

My beta oriented brain is attempting to

figure this outJ

Thanks, Connie

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf

Of JD Elder

Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 8:36 AM

Subject: Re: Advice requested on alpha theta training

Connie,

This

is from limited observations on my part in experimenting with alpha,

alpha-theta, and beta training. There can be an inverse relationship between

frontal and posterior alpha. When posterior alpha is trained up then you can

expect to see frontal alpha decrease in amplitude. However, some trainers have

up trained frontal, central and posterior alpha concurrently.

There

is also an inverse relationship between alpha and beta brainwaves. If you train

beta down you can expect to see an alpha increase. If you train alpha up you

can expect to see a beta decrease in amplitude. Both of these brainwaves need

to be monitored if you are training one or the other. Training can be

problematic. You may see a beta rebound when the down training in beta

range is too aggressive, i.e., 50-80% reward level with low (250 ms) delay.

Example:

Client (42 year-old male); goal was to reduce beta at Pz. Beta at Pz

was excessive and there was frontal alpha. We decreased the beta, and in the

first session and he had an incredible outcome. However, two days later we did

another training session and he had a beta rebound that increased his beta

amplitude more than twice the original amplitude. Needless to say, he didn't

feel well, but didn't want to do any more training that day. The next session,

the next day, we did the same training to reduce beta at Pz with less

aggressiveness and the beta only came down a little, because of the milder

training, but he felt much better. The next few sessions he continued to bring

the beta down, but not to the level at which he started, but he was feeling

much better, better then when we started even though the beta was still

higher. When we got to the point where we were training beta lower than the

original beta level, he felt he was losing energy and wanted to stop and we did.

With

another client the goal was to reduce beta at Pz. He had a prior condition of

excessive beta and an alpha disorder. The beta came down some and alpha

normalized but caused an adverse reaction because of the change in the

abnormal alpha.

You

really need to go slow when down training beta to avoid the rebound effect and

you also need to watch the alpha. It sounds like the

alpha training may have caused a beta rebound effect through the inverse

relationship between the two brainwaves.

A

final note about alpha and alpha-theta training; it is more effective if it is

done later in the day when you are more sleepy, making it is easier to

transition from alpha into theta and get into cross-over (the hypnogogic

state). The training room should be " dark " and " quite. "

This is very important. If you are self training then you need to use a sleep

mask (to avoid peeking) and have someone help setup and monitor the equipment.

It also helps to close your eyes (using sleep mask) and practice your positive

affirmations for 5-10 minutes before training starts, all the time remaining in

an eyes closed condition.

In

Les Femhi's work he notes that with the open-focus training and synchrony work

that the dividing line is at 15 Hz, i.e., 5-15 Hz and 15-45 Hz. When doing the

open-focus training the higher frequency brain waves (15-45 Hz) decline and the

lower frequency brainwaves (5-15 Hz) increase. His new book, " The

Open-Focus Brain " co-authored with Jim Robins is well written and after

reading it, I am beginning to understand and appreciate his work much more.

Best

Regards,

JD

Elder

[Guest guest]

How are you people seeing what's going on during your training sessions? If I'm training with TLC screens (using Infiniti/ProComp/Thought Technology) there is no raw EEG data. There is only info about whether the person is meeting the threshold or not.

I think.Please advise if you are feeling compassionate. thanks.Or if anyone out there knows who I can consult about this, I'd appreciate it.Liz Margoshes, Ph.D., S.S.**Still Struggling

P.S. Connie, where are your clients going to come from? thanksOn Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 10:20 AM, Connie Welsh <conniewelsh@...> wrote:

 

Thanks so much!!  I have ordered the book and am awaiting

it’s arrival.   I am starting a practice in January and am looking

for everything I can to help my clients get benefits.  I am excited to

learn the open focus technique to teach to my clients.

 

Connie

 

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf

Of JD Elder

Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 6:28 AM

Subject: Re: Advice requested on alpha theta training

 

 

Connie,

    I agree, when I am

observing a long term (30 minutes) trend line graph and monitoring alpha and

beta, while trying to down train beta, for the most part they go in the same

direction and very rarely do the lines diverge from one another (less that 1%

of the time). For example, if I am attempting to down train beta, I usually see

a decrease in alpha during the training process, and if I am trying to

increase alpha, initially I tend to see an increase of alpha with eyes closed.

But when up training alpha with eyes closed, as sleepiness sets in (5-15

minutes into training) the alpha will decline despite the training to

increase its amplitude and we see a trend line similar to that with alpha-theta

training where theta will come up, to a lesser degree, while alpha decreases

significantly in amplitude to the point where they cross-over. With continued

training, the general effect will increase alpha amplitude. 

    During alpha-theta training

the up training of alpha appears to have more effect at cross-over,

when the louder theta bongs along with the alpha up training reward sounds,

slightly awakens the client; this allows the client to stay in and hold a

slightly alpha state, close to cross-over, which is the ideal hynogogic state,

and allows the client to practice their positive affirmations and hypnotic

suggestions.

    To actually see the long

term outcome of training, I see changes similar to what you describe, but

I really don't notice them unless I take a baseline, to use for comparison, for

2-3 minutes prior to starting each of the following training

sessions.

    It is really fun to see

alpha rise when a person is having good thoughts and and see it decline when

they are having stressful thoughts. One of the young men I was doing beta down

training with; when he would think about our local university winning their

football game the week before, his alpha would rise significantly. And when he

thought about next week's game where there was a strong likelihood that

the team would lose, his alpha would go down. I also recall giving him

open-focus exercises, having him imagining different space relationships/non-relationships,

and it was a very reliable way to get alpha to rise.  I was able to see a

divergence in the long term trend lines where alpha would go up and the beta

line would go down, when the desired training effect was to down train beta.

The client was able to manifest the inverse training relationship using the

open-focus exercises.

    I shouldn't have been so

dogmatic in my statement about the inverse relationship between alpha and beta.

I was having tunnel vision thinking about the cognitive literature that shows a

decline in alpha and an increase in beta waves when we engage in a

task. I was also thinking about the open-focus training that attempts to

develop " flexibility " in focus/attention. Les Femhi's book, " The

Open-Focus Brain, "  has done much to reveal this inverse relationship

and is very worthwhile reading. I have attended a couple of Dr. Femhi's

presentations and purchased one of his earlier books and I really didn't

appreciate the meaningfulness of his work, despite his effort to teach and my

effort to learn. It wasn't until I started doing alpha and beta

training and started reading his last book that I gained a greater appreciation

of what he was trying to share. He has been doing this training for several

decades and really believes in it. I think his co-author, Jim Robbins has done

much to clarify the meaning of the  " open-focus " concept and make

it more understandable. It my view, it is a major concept worth learning and as

meaningful to me now as breathing training has been. Open-Focus exercises

should be part of any home training program just as learning breathing

exercises. They are both " valuable life skills " that will break

the stress reaction and return us to a healthful homeostasis.

Best Regards,

JD Elder

 

 

 

 

JD

Thanks so much for the response. 

  I would like to ask your opinion on something.  I have been

doing alpha up at p4 for months and months and I love it.  However, 

I do not see the inverse relationship with alpha and beta.  When my alpha

goes up so does my beta.  Not proportionally so I still feel very relaxed.

Also,  my betas seem to settle

lower after the session.  So my alphas are really up and my betas are down

from the previous session.

I think my beta oriented brain figures

out how to raise the alpha and I am not really letting go even though my alphas

are really high.  I know I can raise my alpha by thinking of good things

visually (not in words) and it works.  When I was doing alpha theta, 

I could raise the theta by taking memories that would pop in my brain and

explore them visually.

The only protocol that I truly do not

think with is the T3 T4 squash.  

My beta oriented brain is attempting to

figure this outJ

Thanks,  Connie

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf

Of JD Elder

Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 8:36 AM

Subject: Re: Advice requested on alpha theta training

 

Connie,

    This

is from limited observations on my part in experimenting with alpha,

alpha-theta, and beta training. There can be an inverse relationship between

frontal and posterior alpha. When posterior alpha is trained up then you can

expect to see frontal alpha decrease in amplitude. However, some trainers have

up trained frontal, central and posterior alpha concurrently.

    There

is also an inverse relationship between alpha and beta brainwaves. If you train

beta down you can expect to see an alpha increase. If you train alpha up you

can expect to see a beta decrease in amplitude. Both of these brainwaves need

to be monitored if you are training one or the other. Training can be

problematic. You may see a beta rebound when the down training in beta

range is too aggressive, i.e., 50-80% reward level with low (250 ms) delay.

    Example:

Client (42 year-old male); goal was to reduce beta at Pz. Beta at Pz

was excessive and there was frontal alpha. We decreased the beta, and in the

first session and he had an incredible outcome. However, two days later we did

another training session and he had a beta rebound that increased his beta

amplitude more than twice the original amplitude. Needless to say, he didn't

feel well, but didn't want to do any more training that day. The next session,

the next day, we did the same training to reduce beta at Pz with less

aggressiveness and the beta only came down a little, because of the milder

training, but he felt much better. The next few sessions he continued to bring

the beta down, but not to the level at which he started, but he was feeling

much better, better then when we started even though the beta was still

higher. When we got to the point where we were training beta lower than the

original beta level, he felt he was losing energy and wanted to stop and we did.

    With

another client the goal was to reduce beta at Pz. He had a prior condition of

excessive beta and an alpha disorder. The beta came down some and alpha

normalized but caused an adverse reaction because of the change in the

abnormal alpha.

    You

really need to go slow when down training beta to avoid the rebound effect and

you also need to watch the alpha. It sounds like the

alpha training may have caused a beta rebound effect through the inverse

relationship between the two brainwaves.

    A

final note about alpha and alpha-theta training; it is more effective if it is

done later in the day when you are more sleepy, making it is easier to

transition from alpha into theta and get into cross-over (the hypnogogic

state). The training room should be " dark " and " quite. "

This is very important. If you are self training then you need to use a sleep

mask (to avoid peeking) and have someone help setup and monitor the equipment.

It also helps to close your eyes (using sleep mask) and practice your positive

affirmations for 5-10 minutes before training starts, all the time remaining in

an eyes closed condition.

    In

Les Femhi's work he notes that with the open-focus training and synchrony work

that the dividing line is at 15 Hz, i.e., 5-15 Hz and 15-45 Hz. When doing the

open-focus training the higher frequency brain waves (15-45 Hz) decline and the

lower frequency brainwaves (5-15 Hz) increase. His new book, " The

Open-Focus Brain " co-authored with Jim Robins is well written and after

reading it, I am beginning to understand and appreciate his work much more.

Best

Regards,

JD

Elder

[Guest guest]

Liz,All the Infiniti screens I recall and most of the TLC BioExplorer screens include both an oscilloscope/raw waveform display and a power spectrum display that show you the entire EEG.In BioExplorer you will find (at least in the TLC designs) that there are Windows called Instruments1 and Instruments2.  The former includes items used by the trainer; the latter includes items providing feedback to the client.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

How are you people seeing what's going on during your training sessions? If I'm training with TLC screens (using Infiniti/ProComp/Thought Technology) there is no raw EEG data. There is only info about whether the person is meeting the threshold or not.

I think.Please advise if you are feeling compassionate. thanks.Or if anyone out there knows who I can consult about this, I'd appreciate it.Liz Margoshes, Ph.D.,

[Guest guest]

Hi Liz,

I do not know of the Infinity screens but in BioExplorer you can

configure it to show what waves you would like to see. I usually set it

up to see the waves of interest and monitor it as it goes.

Well, at this point, the clients I was referring to

was my future clients since I have not started my practice yet. I am

going to market neruofeedback in Columbus and hope to get some clients.

I have quit my agency and 5 clients wanted to come with me (pro

bono or very low cost J )and I could not leave them because most have personality

disorders and have developed a good productive relationship with me. A

few are interested in neurofeedback and I am going to take some of my new

practice “downtime” to help them. Also, I have

currently treated only 4 people and even though I have had very good success

with each of them (Thanks Pete and Rosemary!!), I will feel better

talking to potential clients with higher numbers.

I have some current interest from physicians and psychologists

who may be referral sources and a am planning a strong marketing effort. I

am thankful for my business experience and keeping my fingers crossed.

I don’t have much competition in Columbus and not looking

for a huge practice at this point so I am optimistic.

Hope all is well with you. Connie

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf

Of Margoshes

Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 11:12 AM

Subject: Re: Advice requested on alpha theta training

How are you people seeing what's going on

during your training sessions? If I'm training with TLC screens (using

Infiniti/ProComp/Thought Technology) there is no raw EEG data. There is only

info about whether the person is meeting the threshold or not.

I think.

Please advise if you are feeling compassionate. thanks.

Or if anyone out there knows who I can consult about this, I'd appreciate it.

Liz Margoshes, Ph.D., S.S.*

*Still Struggling

P.S. Connie, where are your clients going to come from? thanks

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 10:20 AM, Connie Welsh <conniewelsh@...>

wrote:

Thanks

so much!! I have ordered the book and am awaiting it’s

arrival. I am starting a practice in January and am looking for

everything I can to help my clients get benefits. I am excited to learn

the open focus technique to teach to my clients.

Connie

From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of JD Elder

Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 6:28 AM

Subject: Re: Advice requested on alpha theta training

Connie,

I agree, when I am

observing a long term (30 minutes) trend line graph and monitoring alpha and

beta, while trying to down train beta, for the most part they go in the same

direction and very rarely do the lines diverge from one another (less that 1%

of the time). For example, if I am attempting to down train beta, I usually see

a decrease in alpha during the training process, and if I am trying to

increase alpha, initially I tend to see an increase of alpha with eyes closed.

But when up training alpha with eyes closed, as sleepiness sets in (5-15 minutes

into training) the alpha will decline despite the training to increase its

amplitude and we see a trend line similar to that with alpha-theta training

where theta will come up, to a lesser degree, while alpha decreases

significantly in amplitude to the point where they cross-over. With continued

training, the general effect will increase alpha amplitude.

During alpha-theta

training the up training of alpha appears to have more effect at

cross-over, when the louder theta bongs along with the alpha up training reward

sounds, slightly awakens the client; this allows the client to stay in and

hold a slightly alpha state, close to cross-over, which is the ideal hynogogic

state, and allows the client to practice their positive affirmations and

hypnotic suggestions.

To actually see the long

term outcome of training, I see changes similar to what you describe, but

I really don't notice them unless I take a baseline, to use for comparison, for

2-3 minutes prior to starting each of the following training

sessions.

It is really fun to see

alpha rise when a person is having good thoughts and and see it decline when

they are having stressful thoughts. One of the young men I was doing beta down

training with; when he would think about our local university winning their

football game the week before, his alpha would rise significantly. And when he

thought about next week's game where there was a strong likelihood that

the team would lose, his alpha would go down. I also recall giving him

open-focus exercises, having him imagining different space relationships/non-relationships,

and it was a very reliable way to get alpha to rise. I was able to see a

divergence in the long term trend lines where alpha would go up and the beta

line would go down, when the desired training effect was to down train beta.

The client was able to manifest the inverse training relationship using the

open-focus exercises.

I shouldn't have been so

dogmatic in my statement about the inverse relationship between alpha and beta.

I was having tunnel vision thinking about the cognitive literature that shows a

decline in alpha and an increase in beta waves when we engage in a

task. I was also thinking about the open-focus training that attempts to

develop " flexibility " in focus/attention. Les Femhi's book, " The

Open-Focus Brain, " has done much to reveal this inverse relationship

and is very worthwhile reading. I have attended a couple of Dr. Femhi's

presentations and purchased one of his earlier books and I really didn't

appreciate the meaningfulness of his work, despite his effort to teach and my

effort to learn. It wasn't until I started doing alpha and beta

training and started reading his last book that I gained a greater appreciation

of what he was trying to share. He has been doing this training for several

decades and really believes in it. I think his co-author, Jim Robbins has done

much to clarify the meaning of the " open-focus " concept and make

it more understandable. It my view, it is a major concept worth learning and as

meaningful to me now as breathing training has been. Open-Focus exercises

should be part of any home training program just as learning breathing

exercises. They are both " valuable life skills " that will break

the stress reaction and return us to a healthful homeostasis.

Best Regards,

JD Elder

JD

Thanks

so much for the response. I would like to ask your opinion on

something. I have been doing alpha up at p4 for months and months and I

love it. However, I do not see the inverse relationship with alpha

and beta. When my alpha goes up so does my beta. Not proportionally

so I still feel very relaxed.

Also,

my betas seem to settle lower after the session. So my alphas are really

up and my betas are down from the previous session.

I

think my beta oriented brain figures out how to raise the alpha and I am not

really letting go even though my alphas are really high. I know I can

raise my alpha by thinking of good things visually (not in words) and it

works. When I was doing alpha theta, I could raise the theta by

taking memories that would pop in my brain and explore them visually.

The

only protocol that I truly do not think with is the T3 T4 squash.

My

beta oriented brain is attempting to figure this outJ

Thanks,

Connie

From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of JD Elder

Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 8:36 AM

Subject: Re: Advice requested on alpha theta training

Connie,

This is from limited

observations on my part in experimenting with alpha, alpha-theta, and beta

training. There can be an inverse relationship between frontal and posterior

alpha. When posterior alpha is trained up then you can expect to see frontal

alpha decrease in amplitude. However, some trainers have up trained frontal,

central and posterior alpha concurrently.

There is also an inverse

relationship between alpha and beta brainwaves. If you train beta down you can

expect to see an alpha increase. If you train alpha up you can expect to see a

beta decrease in amplitude. Both of these brainwaves need to be monitored if

you are training one or the other. Training can be problematic. You may see a

beta rebound when the down training in beta range is too aggressive, i.e.,

50-80% reward level with low (250 ms) delay.

Example: Client

(42 year-old male); goal was to reduce beta at Pz. Beta at Pz was excessive and

there was frontal alpha. We decreased the beta, and in the first session and he

had an incredible outcome. However, two days later we did another training

session and he had a beta rebound that increased his beta amplitude more than

twice the original amplitude. Needless to say, he didn't feel well, but didn't

want to do any more training that day. The next session, the next day, we did

the same training to reduce beta at Pz with less aggressiveness and the

beta only came down a little, because of the milder training, but he felt much

better. The next few sessions he continued to bring the beta down, but not to

the level at which he started, but he was feeling much better, better then

when we started even though the beta was still higher. When we got to the point

where we were training beta lower than the original beta level, he felt he was

losing energy and wanted to stop and we did.

With another client the

goal was to reduce beta at Pz. He had a prior condition of excessive beta and

an alpha disorder. The beta came down some and alpha normalized but caused

an adverse reaction because of the change in the abnormal alpha.

You really need to go

slow when down training beta to avoid the rebound effect and you also need to

watch the alpha. It sounds like the alpha training may have caused

a beta rebound effect through the inverse relationship between the two

brainwaves.

A final note about alpha

and alpha-theta training; it is more effective if it is done later in the day

when you are more sleepy, making it is easier to transition from alpha into

theta and get into cross-over (the hypnogogic state). The training room should

be " dark " and " quite. " This is very important. If you are

self training then you need to use a sleep mask (to avoid peeking) and have

someone help setup and monitor the equipment. It also helps to close your eyes

(using sleep mask) and practice your positive affirmations for 5-10 minutes

before training starts, all the time remaining in an eyes closed condition.

In Les Femhi's work he

notes that with the open-focus training and synchrony work that the dividing

line is at 15 Hz, i.e., 5-15 Hz and 15-45 Hz. When doing the open-focus

training the higher frequency brain waves (15-45 Hz) decline and the lower

frequency brainwaves (5-15 Hz) increase. His new book, " The Open-Focus

Brain " co-authored with Jim Robins is well written and after reading it, I

am beginning to understand and appreciate his work much more.

Best Regards,

JD Elder

[Guest guest]

Pete,I'm attaching (I hope) a screenshot of a typical Infiniti training screen, for a windowed squash. Where is the raw EEG? I am only aware that it exists on a separate screen that you would have to toggle to, and in doing so stop the training-in-progress.

If this is wrong, that would be a really important piece of info for me, since, as I've posted before, I have a lot of trouble getting a decent signal and I am always starting and stopping and going into Review mode to look at the signal in retrospect.

ThanksLiz MargoshesOn Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:23 AM, Van Deusen <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

Liz,All the Infiniti screens I recall and most of the TLC BioExplorer screens include both an oscilloscope/raw waveform display and a power spectrum display that show you the entire EEG.

In BioExplorer you will find (at least in the TLC designs) that there are Windows called Instruments1 and Instruments2.  The former includes items used by the trainer; the latter includes items providing feedback to the client.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

How are you people seeing what's going on during your training sessions? If I'm training with TLC screens (using Infiniti/ProComp/Thought Technology) there is no raw EEG data. There is only info about whether the person is meeting the threshold or not.

I think.Please advise if you are feeling compassionate. thanks.Or if anyone out there knows who I can consult about this, I'd appreciate it.Liz Margoshes, Ph.D.,

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