Guest guest Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 Hi - It might be a fire hazard to leave the car seat in the room. That was the case at our daycare. Maybe you can ask if you can bring in a baby bumbo sitter, so that he will be off his head. kimi100us <kimi100us@...> wrote: Hi. My name is Kimi and my son Zachary is almost 3 months old. He has just started pt for torticollis and plagio. I am wondering if anyone else has had problems with their daycare centers and all the rules( no swing, no bouncy seat, etc. ) Our problem is with the health dept. (in Kansas) and all their rules. Our pt said we can put Zach in a car seat sitting with his back against the side and the health dept says no car seats in the infant room. So i am waiting for a note from pt saying this is necessary. I just feel frustrated and overwhelmed thinking we have about two months to get his head rounded out or he will need a helmet. I tried to get the importance of this through to the daycare but i am not sure if it is getting through. I guess i need some advice and some support. Thanks. Kimi , mom to Zach 3 monthsWichita , KS Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Answers. Try it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2006 Report Share Posted December 6, 2006 Hi Kimi, can your son hold his head up? My daugher is 3 1/2 mos, and can hold her head up in my arms both our pediatrician and the pediatric plastic surgeon encouraged us to put her in an exersaucer for 10 minute bouts to keep her from laying down wich puts pressure on her head. We put a small pillow behind her back as she does still need some support. She likes it and loves to play with the toys, as much as a 3 mos. old can!!! Also, I don't know if you heard of the Bumbo or Be Be pod but we got the Bumbo and it is great for her to sit in and look around at everything, again leaving nothing pressing against her head. Maybe you can look into these and check with your docs, if not for the daycare even for home. It's really tough these first few months because to really do your child justice and for repo to work you basically have to hold them all day because they haven't developed the muscle control or balance for themselves. With the tort it makes it especially difficult because they are uncomfortable and not even able to lay off their flat spots (my oldest and Hannah both had Tort) Hang in there! Hope that helps and good luck. \ Pittsburgh mom to Tyler, Josh and Hannah > > Hi. My name is Kimi and my son Zachary is almost 3 months old. He has > just started pt for torticollis and plagio. I am wondering if anyone > else has had problems with their daycare centers and all the rules( no > swing, no bouncy seat, etc. ) Our problem is with the health dept. (in > Kansas) and all their rules. Our pt said we can put Zach in a car seat > sitting with his back against the side and the health dept says no car > seats in the infant room. So i am waiting for a note from pt saying > this is necessary. I just feel frustrated and overwhelmed thinking we > have about two months to get his head rounded out or he will need a > helmet. I tried to get the importance of this through to the daycare > but i am not sure if it is getting through. I guess i need some advice > and some support. Thanks. > > Kimi , mom to Zach 3 months > Wichita , KS > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2006 Report Share Posted December 14, 2006 Did you mean carbs made up the rest of your food, after fats and meats? or did you mean vegetables? I have heard that carbs and fats are a bad combo for weight loss. But then, I was assuming you meant starchy carbs, grains, flours, potatoes, corn, etc. Perhaps you need to keep the veggies high, and carbs low. My personal experience is that when I do this it works, but...carbs are easy, quick and very available, so when I get short on time and opt out for carbs, the weight just piles back on-fast-- Even though I have always worked out aerobically and with weights. I really have to make an effort to take the time, daily, to fix low-carb veggies. Just a thought before you blame the fats. Jan .... I went from 10% or less of my diet > being fat and around 5% protein to close to 50% fat followed by > protein and then carbs. Most of the fat came from coconut oil, od > liver oil, raw milk and cheese and egg yolks. My weight went up as > did my energy levels but so did my waist. At 3500 of these calories a > day I was gaining fat fast. I cut down to 2500 and fat gain slowed > but still occurred. I'm now down to 2250 calories a day and it seems > like I have stabilized and will hopefully start to lose fat soon. > > With all of this I was wondering if anyone else has a similiar > experience? Are there any bodybuilders or weight trainers on board > who have had success in getting lean with this kind of diet? I know > on paper and according to the books written by Fallon and Enig this > should be possible, but in real life I'm having problems with it. > > Any thoughts? > > Thanks in advance. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2006 Report Share Posted December 14, 2006 Sorry I didn't clarify. The carbs I ate when eating raw are the same I eat now, albeit in much lower quantities. Fruits and vegetables (and a tablespoon of raw honey which will be described next). The only grains I eat now come in the form of soaked oats (1/2 cup soaked overnight in water and real yogurt, then cooked with salted water in the morning. I add raw honey, coconut oil and butter to it). I have to admit that I eat more fruits than veggies, but since I can add butter now I have increased the vegetables now more than I did before. I used to eat a lot of carrots and then I'd make a green salad and throw it in the blender with bananas, oranges, water, etc and drink it down. My carb intake now is very low in general, especially compared to when I was eating raw. Then it was all raw fruits and veggies..no grains at all. Now, like I said, it's mostly fats and protein. I should add that there are carbs in the raw milk I drink, and that's about 2 cups a day. I take all of that into consideration with my total macronutrient intake so the percentages I gave earlier still stand true. Thanks for your suggestion. > > > > Did you mean carbs made up the rest of your food, after fats and meats? > or did you mean vegetables? I have heard that carbs and fats are a bad > combo for weight loss. But then, I was assuming you meant starchy > carbs, grains, flours, potatoes, corn, etc. Perhaps you need to keep > the veggies high, and carbs low. My personal experience is that when I > do this it works, but...carbs are easy, quick and very available, so > when I get short on time and opt out for carbs, the weight just piles > back on-fast-- Even though I have always worked out aerobically and with > weights. I really have to make an effort to take the time, daily, to > fix low-carb veggies. > > Just a thought before you blame the fats. > > Jan > > > > > > > > ... I went from 10% or less of my diet > > > being fat and around 5% protein to close to 50% fat followed by > > > protein and then carbs. Most of the fat came from coconut oil, od > > > liver oil, raw milk and cheese and egg yolks. My weight went up as > > > did my energy levels but so did my waist. At 3500 of these calories a > > > day I was gaining fat fast. I cut down to 2500 and fat gain slowed > > > but still occurred. I'm now down to 2250 calories a day and it seems > > > like I have stabilized and will hopefully start to lose fat soon. > > > > > > With all of this I was wondering if anyone else has a similiar > > > experience? Are there any bodybuilders or weight trainers on board > > > who have had success in getting lean with this kind of diet? I know > > > on paper and according to the books written by Fallon and Enig this > > > should be possible, but in real life I'm having problems with it. > > > > > > Any thoughts? > > > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2006 Report Share Posted December 14, 2006 On 12/14/06, <jcdambrosio@...> wrote: > > Hi Everyone! > > I'm new to the group but not to the concepts of Weston A. Price or raw > foods. I've found a steady source of raw dairy and lacto-fermented > foods through the WAPF. That being said I have a few questions. > First off, what does anyone think of the opinions expressed on this video: > It's just a bunch of sour grapes because Masterjohn wrote a critical review of his book. Instead of addressing the valid points in the review, he brings up Chris's age, and darkly hints that the WAPF is funded by " farmers. " Naomi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2006 Report Share Posted December 14, 2006 ....I was wondering if anyone else has a similiar > experience? Are there any bodybuilders or weight trainers on board > who have had success in getting lean with this kind of diet? I know > on paper and according to the books written by Fallon and Enig this > should be possible, but in real life I'm having problems with it. > > Any thoughts? , What kind of workout program? That will play a big role. It's easy enough to lose on a catabolic diet. If you eat anabolic foods, and your body builds easily, my opinion and experience is that one needs to restrict calories to get very lean. Systematic undereating. Do you put weight--muscle and fat--on easily? I'm also unclear on your carb consumption, which would need to be very minimal. B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2006 Report Share Posted December 15, 2006 Hi , My workout program varies, but it's usually between 3-5 times a week, 25-45 minutes a session. Each body part is worked once a week with multiple sets and exercises to failure. I've been training for 25 years now so I have that aspect down. I'm also a personal trainer as well as a chiropractor (among other things) so I have a good grasp on anatomy and the physiological processes of the body. That being said, it was the science behind WAPF that caught my eye and made sense to me. The way my body is responding is what's throwing me off. I understand that previously when I was eating lots of carbs in the form of lots of fruits and some vegetables I was also consuming a lot of fiber which could have, in theory at least, caused the number of calories consumed to be a bit greater than the number of calories actually absorbed. This could have been playing a part in my inability to gain muscle and eating at my maximum capacity at the time. Like I said, over the course of a few months I lost 20 pounds, most of which was fat. I was fairly lean (at least to the eye) to begin with so when I dropped so many sizes in pants and a size in shirts it tugged at my ego. Losing over an inch on my arms was the hardest part for me and although I had only lost a couple of pounds of muscle, people asking me if I still worked out (my clothes were all baggy) got the best of me so I looked to change my eating to see if I could gain some more muscle. I had assumed it was lack of protein (again, only 5% of my diet was protein at the time) so I added some raw eggs to my shakes. At around 4 eggs or so a day I was able to get my protein up a bit (considering it was negligible pre-eggs). Another factor that I considered was the huge change in my macronutrient intake. I figured for the body to adapt that initially there had to be fat gain but when the gains kept coming and 4 months went by even with a reduced caloric intake I knew there had to be a " glitch " in my system. Well, that's my story. Oh, and besides the half a cup of porridge in the morning and some grapes or a banana during the day, the occasional batch of stringbeans at night, my carbs are pretty nil. Thanks in advance for your thoughts. > > ...I was wondering if anyone else has a similiar > > experience? Are there any bodybuilders or weight trainers on board > > who have had success in getting lean with this kind of diet? I know > > on paper and according to the books written by Fallon and Enig this > > should be possible, but in real life I'm having problems with it. > > > > Any thoughts? > > , > > What kind of workout program? That will play a big role. > > It's easy enough to lose on a catabolic diet. If you eat anabolic > foods, and your body builds easily, my opinion and experience is that > one needs to restrict calories to get very lean. Systematic > undereating. Do you put weight--muscle and fat--on easily? > > I'm also unclear on your carb consumption, which would need to be very > minimal. > B. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2006 Report Share Posted December 15, 2006 You might enjoy the Nutrition forum at Crossfit. They are talking about exactly this sort of thing. Archives take a bit of searching but there is tons of info from people experimenting just as you are. There are WAPF friendly people, paleo, raw, veggie, you name it. If you consider yourself as your own " black box " experiment, what you've learned is that all raw the way you were doing it, wasn't good for the muscle you want. And then, the next macronutrient mix wasn't good for the leanness you want. They have guys getting exactly the looks and performance they want. Some have to cut the carbs, some cut the fat, it depends on your body's response and your activity. Connie --- In , " " <jcdambrosio@...> wrote: > > Sorry I didn't clarify. The carbs I ate when eating raw are the > same I eat now, albeit in much lower quantities. Fruits and > vegetables (and a tablespoon of raw honey which will be described Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2006 Report Share Posted December 15, 2006 Connie, What's the link for the Crossfit group? I couldn't find it? Thanks, > > > > Sorry I didn't clarify. The carbs I ate when eating raw are the > > same I eat now, albeit in much lower quantities. Fruits and > > vegetables (and a tablespoon of raw honey which will be described > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2006 Report Share Posted December 18, 2006 > > Hi , > > My workout program varies, but it's usually between 3-5 times a week, > 25-45 minutes a session. Each body part is worked once a week with > multiple sets and exercises to failure. I've been training for 25 > years now so I have that aspect down. I'm also a personal trainer as > well as a chiropractor (among other things) so I have a good grasp on > anatomy and the physiological processes of the body. That being said, > it was the science behind WAPF that caught my eye and made sense to me. > > The way my body is responding is what's throwing me off. I understand > that previously when I was eating lots of carbs in the form of lots of > fruits and some vegetables I was also consuming a lot of fiber which > could have, in theory at least, caused the number of calories consumed > to be a bit greater than the number of calories actually absorbed. > This could have been playing a part in my inability to gain muscle and > eating at my maximum capacity at the time. Like I said, over the > course of a few months I lost 20 pounds, most of which was fat. I was > fairly lean (at least to the eye) to begin with so when I dropped so > many sizes in pants and a size in shirts it tugged at my ego. Losing > over an inch on my arms was the hardest part for me and although I had > only lost a couple of pounds of muscle, people asking me if I still > worked out (my clothes were all baggy) got the best of me so I looked > to change my eating to see if I could gain some more muscle. I had > assumed it was lack of protein (again, only 5% of my diet was protein > at the time) so I added some raw eggs to my shakes. At around 4 eggs > or so a day I was able to get my protein up a bit (considering it was > negligible pre-eggs). > > Another factor that I considered was the huge change in my > macronutrient intake. I figured for the body to adapt that initially > there had to be fat gain but when the gains kept coming and 4 months > went by even with a reduced caloric intake I knew there had to be a > " glitch " in my system. > > Well, that's my story. Oh, and besides the half a cup of porridge in > the morning and some grapes or a banana during the day, the occasional > batch of stringbeans at night, my carbs are pretty nil. > > Thanks in advance for your thoughts. > , IIRC in your original post you were openly asking for some ideas yet when I responded you assure me that you've been doing this a long time and " have it down " yet you are confused by your body's responses to your program. From what you describe, the body's response is not surprising. 1. This may be a difference of opinion, but I don't understand working to failure--I mean, to what are you conditioning your body by training to...failure? 2. You work each body part every week? You are a body builder, I presume? Do you do any whole-body workouts? 3. You were eating a protein-deficient and otherwise catabolic diet before while simultaneously following a body-building training program/training to failure which is inducing more catabolism yet you are mystified how your body lost 20 lbs. of mass? (Hint: it wasn't because you were consuming extra fiber.) 4. How do you know, please, that of the 20 lbs. you lost only three was muscle? No challenge, just curious. 5. Do you know four eggs are only about 28 grams of protein max? 6. How much do you weigh? How much protein do you eat, on average, in a day? 7. The good news is that if you're not now accustomed to eating a lot of carbs, things should go easier. 8. What sort of exercise do you do to burn fat and how often? Enjoy! B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2006 Report Share Posted December 18, 2006 http://www.crossfit.com/discus/messages/23/23.html Connie > > > > > > Sorry I didn't clarify. The carbs I ate when eating raw are the > > > same I eat now, albeit in much lower quantities. Fruits and > > > vegetables (and a tablespoon of raw honey which will be described > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2006 Report Share Posted December 18, 2006 IIRC in your original post you were openly asking for some ideas yet when I responded you assure me that you've been doing this a long time and " have it down " yet you are confused by your body's responses to your program. From what you describe, the body's response is not surprising. Hi ! I have the training down and had diet down pretty well but decided to experiment. 1. This may be a difference of opinion, but I don't understand working to failure--I mean, to what are you conditioning your body by training to...failure? Training to failure is when you pick an exercise, a weight and a repetition range and then work with that weight in strict form until you can't get another repetition, hence, to failure. 2. You work each body part every week? You are a body builder, I presume? Do you do any whole-body workouts? I body build but am not a body builder per se. I do full body workouts occasionally but don't find them to be the most efficient. 3. You were eating a protein-deficient and otherwise catabolic diet before while simultaneously following a body-building training program/training to failure which is inducing more catabolism yet you are mystified how your body lost 20 lbs. of mass? (Hint: it wasn't because you were consuming extra fiber.) I have been training to failure for years on and off and was doing so before the protein deficient diet, during it and after it. The research I had read was stating that due to amino acid recycling the body doesn't need as much protein as stated by some sources. I figured I'd try it out for myself to see what happened. I lost 20 lbs of fat and only 3 lbs of muscle, so in reality that's very good, but I was hoping to build muscle as I lost weight or at least build some after losing fat and that wasn't happening at all. 4. How do you know, please, that of the 20 lbs. you lost only three was muscle? No challenge, just curious. I weigh myself on a scale that measures body mass bioelectrically. I was able to track my muscle and fat loss weekly that way. 5. Do you know four eggs are only about 28 grams of protein max? I am very aware of the amount of protein in the eggs I was eating, as well as any protein I obtained from fruits and vegetables. I tracked everything thoroughly on Nutridiary.com and was able to see what my macronutrient ratios and amounts were with every meal and daily. 6. How much do you weigh? How much protein do you eat, on average, in a day? I weigh 170 lbs now and eat 170-220 grams of protein a day. 7. The good news is that if you're not now accustomed to eating a lot of carbs, things should go easier. 8. What sort of exercise do you do to burn fat and how often? Building muscle through intense weight training 3-5 times a week works well for burning fat for me. I rarely had much need to do any aerobic exercise, although I do try to take 45 minute walks a few times a week just to clear my head. When I get the urge I'll also hit the heavy bag for 10-15 minutes in an interval training sort of method but I haven't done that in quite some time. Enjoy! B. __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 > Hi ! I have the training down and had diet down pretty well but decided to experiment. > Training to failure is when you pick an exercise, a weight and a repetition range and then work with that weight in strict form until you can't get another repetition, hence, to failure. Okay, imo *consistent* training to failure, over time, burns out the CNS system and once one arrives in that state, putting on strength and size is going to be impossible until one recovers. I concede training to failure has its limited uses and that your knowledge of both training and physiology likely qualify you as one who can play that edge, but I prefer stopping a rep or two before failure. no further questions. > I body build but am not a body builder per se. I do full body workouts occasionally but don't find them to be the most efficient. ....and when you say " efficient " I wonder what you mean? Will you share your goals? > I have been training to failure for years on and off and was doing so before the protein deficient diet, during it and after it. The research I had read was stating that due to amino acid recycling the body doesn't need as much protein as stated by some sources. I figured I'd try it out for myself to see what happened. I lost 20 lbs of fat and only 3 lbs of muscle, so in reality that's very good, but I was hoping to build muscle as I lost weight or at least build some after losing fat and that wasn't happening at all. Well, I'd divide the blame between the diet and training to failure but certainly that's pure internet speculation on my part... > I weigh myself on a scale that measures body mass bioelectrically. I was able to track my muscle and fat loss weekly that way. Thank goodness you knew and cared enough to make some changes, eh? > I weigh 170 lbs now and eat 170-220 grams of protein a day. What a radical switch--how do you feel? Ever get any symptoms of too much protein? Franco Columbu says one gram protein per kilo of bodyweight--what do you think of that? What are your sources of protein? > Building muscle through intense weight training 3-5 times a week works well for burning fat for me. I rarely had much need to do any aerobic exercise, although I do try to take 45 minute walks a few times a week just to clear my head. When I get the urge I'll also hit the heavy bag for 10-15 minutes in an interval training sort of method but I haven't done that in quite some time. Do any pull-ups? Anyway, the deal afaik is that in order to cut, one needs to restrict calories--let me know if you find out otherwise, please! Sounds like you've got a lot of awareness, I just enjoy the topic and I'm chit-chatting. B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 Hi , I agree that training to failure constantly can indeed overstress and overtax the nervous system and the body in general, that's why my training is infrequent and brief when going to failure. When I train more than 3 days a week I use a lot of sub-failure sets, although I will still train to failure. Through meticulous log taking I've been able to determine my limits and know that improve best when I pull back and then assault for a 2 week period, then maintain and finally pull back briefly and attack again. I'm simplifying it here but I think you get the drift. My goals, in the most vague sense, are to build as much muscle as possible without gaining lots of fat which is usually the case with traditional " bulking " phases. At 5'8 " I'd like to ideally be 175-180 while keeping my 32 " waist and having a body fat % of 8-10%. Full body workouts are very taxing on the system without fully exhausting or working a particular body part. I do incorporate them in for variety on occasion but find (and have found from past trials) that long term full body training on one day drains me systemically without creating enough of a stimulus for growth. I usually end up losing size after doing full body training for more than a few weeks to a month. There's nothing wrong with internet speculation, and yes, it's quite possible that the 3 pounds of muscle I lost may have been to training to failure while not getting enough protein, but I could have also lost a chunk of the 20 pounds of fat due to the training to failure so it was a fair trade-off. Again, I was only upset at the muscle loss so far as I couldn't seem to gain it back once I stabilized my weight by increasing calories. I needed to add the protein back into my diet to do that. There is so much information, a lot backed by research, that tout different amounts of protein for someone who is training. They vary from the 1 gram per kilogram you stated, .6 grams per pound of body weight to 1.5-2 grams per pound. It was part of this confusion that attracted me to trying to go with the minimum protein amounts. I figured the best way to determine my needs would be to start at the bottom, and since the amino acid recycling seemed to make sense, I gave it a shot. Granted, that was too little for me, but I didn't waste away so maybe the 1 gram per kilogram of body weight should be my next step. In the panic that ensued due to my ego and the inability to gain muscle I jumped into a large amount of protein again instead of the moderate increase I had planned. My protein sources come from eggs, dairy, meats and whey protein. I'd say at this point about half comes from whey, but I'm going to try getting around 80-100 grams a day for a while and see how that pans out. I won't need to have whey doing this so. I do know a lot of body builders who are not on steroids (hence they don't compete) who swear by 1.5-2 grams of protein per pound and state that even when they train people, once they kick up their protein to those amounts the gains in muscle really start to occur. It could be just due to an increase in calories in general I guess, but I'm not sure. That's why I experment! Oh, and I have never gotten any symptoms of too much protein. I seem to tolerate it quite well. I do pull-ups both for back and biceps, as well as dips for triceps and chest. All depending on the grip and isolation. As I normally need to strap a bit of weight onto my body to make these exercises productive I have instead decided to break each exercise up into segments. For example, pull-ups I'd do the top section first, as this is my weakest part and it gives out first. I follow that by doing the middle section and then finally the strongest section for me, the bottom. By the time I reach the bottom it feels like my weakest point because I've exhausted the muscle by working the other ranges of motion already. Working this way I don't need to use much weight or at least it greatly limits what I need to strap on. As I also enjoy the topic, if you'd like to email me privately in case the group is getting bored by our conversation, feel free to do so. I'd love to hear from you. Thanks again for everything! downwardog7 <illneverbecool@...> wrote: > Hi ! I have the training down and had diet down pretty well but decided to experiment. > Training to failure is when you pick an exercise, a weight and a repetition range and then work with that weight in strict form until you can't get another repetition, hence, to failure. Okay, imo *consistent* training to failure, over time, burns out the CNS system and once one arrives in that state, putting on strength and size is going to be impossible until one recovers. I concede training to failure has its limited uses and that your knowledge of both training and physiology likely qualify you as one who can play that edge, but I prefer stopping a rep or two before failure. no further questions. > I body build but am not a body builder per se. I do full body workouts occasionally but don't find them to be the most efficient. ...and when you say " efficient " I wonder what you mean? Will you share your goals? > I have been training to failure for years on and off and was doing so before the protein deficient diet, during it and after it. The research I had read was stating that due to amino acid recycling the body doesn't need as much protein as stated by some sources. I figured I'd try it out for myself to see what happened. I lost 20 lbs of fat and only 3 lbs of muscle, so in reality that's very good, but I was hoping to build muscle as I lost weight or at least build some after losing fat and that wasn't happening at all. Well, I'd divide the blame between the diet and training to failure but certainly that's pure internet speculation on my part... > I weigh myself on a scale that measures body mass bioelectrically. I was able to track my muscle and fat loss weekly that way. Thank goodness you knew and cared enough to make some changes, eh? > I weigh 170 lbs now and eat 170-220 grams of protein a day. What a radical switch--how do you feel? Ever get any symptoms of too much protein? Franco Columbu says one gram protein per kilo of bodyweight--what do you think of that? What are your sources of protein? > Building muscle through intense weight training 3-5 times a week works well for burning fat for me. I rarely had much need to do any aerobic exercise, although I do try to take 45 minute walks a few times a week just to clear my head. When I get the urge I'll also hit the heavy bag for 10-15 minutes in an interval training sort of method but I haven't done that in quite some time. Do any pull-ups? Anyway, the deal afaik is that in order to cut, one needs to restrict calories--let me know if you find out otherwise, please! Sounds like you've got a lot of awareness, I just enjoy the topic and I'm chit-chatting. B. __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 On 12/14/06, <jcdambrosio@...> wrote: > Hi Everyone! > > I'm new to the group but not to the concepts of Weston A. Price or raw > foods. I've found a steady source of raw dairy and lacto-fermented > foods through the WAPF. That being said I have a few questions. > First off, what does anyone think of the opinions expressed on this video: > Hi Jon, There was a recent thread dealing with all this. The subject title is " T. Colin Responds to My China Study Review " Check the archives. You might find that thread of interest. > Second, before starting to eat the ways recommended by WAP I had gone > on a raw diet for about 3 months. It was mostly raw fruits and > veggies, no meats or nuts. I ended up losing 20 lbs, 3 of it being > muscle. I was pleased but had a hard time maintaining weight and > feared losing muscle. My bf pre-raw was 18% and it ended up going > down as low as 11 or 12% (I don't have my notes in front of me). I > dropped quite a few waist sizes and one shirt size. The shirt size > played with my ego as I work out regularly so I increased my eating. > Even with 2 avocados a day and my calories hitting 3500 and more, I > was still holding steady with weight and couldn't gain any muscle. I have never known anyone who was actually able to build muscle on a vegan diet of any sort. I'm sure there are some exceptions out there but its not the norm. > I > slowly started to add raw eggs into my fruit/veggie shakes and this > helped a little. Then came rare meat until I came across the WAPF and > changed my eating drastically. I went from 10% or less of my diet > being fat and around 5% protein to close to 50% fat followed by > protein and then carbs. Most of the fat came from coconut oil, od > liver oil, raw milk and cheese and egg yolks. My weight went up as > did my energy levels but so did my waist. At 3500 of these calories a > day I was gaining fat fast. I cut down to 2500 and fat gain slowed > but still occurred. I'm now down to 2250 calories a day and it seems > like I have stabilized and will hopefully start to lose fat soon. Another approach is to tinker with the fat instead of tinkering with the calories, until you find a level of fat consumption where you are gaining muscle and not gaining fat. You may end up as high as 80%, which admittedly is not for everybody. Generally speaking, many people following WAP principles lose weight/muscle up by WAPifying some pre-existing diet plan, be it Atkins, the Warrior Diet, Mastering Leptin, Fit for Life, etc. My suggestion is if you are really into training with weights of some sort, and having a problem with NT foods as regards weight gain, is to try out the metabolic diet: http://www.metabolicdiet.com/ Rest assured you will have to WAPify it but I still think it is an effective way of losing weight and gaining muscle mass while still allowing quite a bit of food freedom. When you go to the site have a feel around but what will probably interest you the most is the link at the the top of the page called anabolic solution. The Metabolic Diet is an expansion for the general public of his original Anabolic Diet, which was aimed largely at BBers and PLers. I don't know what your current carb level is but you may be one of those folks where if the carb count goes anywhere north of 70 grams on a regular basis (on a diet of this nature), you will gain fat no matter what you do. > With all of this I was wondering if anyone else has a similiar > experience? Are there any bodybuilders or weight trainers on board > who have had success in getting lean with this kind of diet? I know > on paper and according to the books written by Fallon and Enig this > should be possible, but in real life I'm having problems with it. > > Any thoughts? I don't know how familiar you are with WAP, but there really isn't just one kind of diet. There are general principles which can be applied to many different macro nutrient profiles. So experimentation is in order to find out what works best for you. Personally I follow the Warrior Diet in terms of food timing, and everything else is pretty much a high fat WAP style diet. The WD only presents a problem for me when I don't workout, but it fits my schedule nicely. I have been able to build muscle on it but I gain quite easily, and I am not convinced that you can really build on the WD, if that is your goal. If I was really gungho about putting on some serious muscle, I would adopt the metabolic/anabolic diet in a heartbeat (a diet btw which also dovetails nicely with my lifestyle though in a different way than the WD). -- " All [gov't] can see in an original idea is potential change, and hence an invasion of its prerogatives. The most dangerous man, to any gov't, is the man who is able to think things out for himself, without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the gov't he lives under is dishonest, insane, and intolerable, and so, if he is a romantic, he tries to change it. And even if he is not...he is very apt to spread discontent among those who are. " H.L. Mencken How sweet it is! The GOP, RIP http://snipurl.com/w7d6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 On 12/14/06, <jcdambrosio@...> wrote: > I should add that there are carbs in the raw milk I drink, and > that's about 2 cups a day. I take all of that into consideration > with my total macronutrient intake so the percentages I gave earlier > still stand true. Actually the only percentage you gave after changing your diet was that you were at a 50% fat level. It would be interesting to know what are the remaining macro nutrients percentages in your diet. -- " All [gov't] can see in an original idea is potential change, and hence an invasion of its prerogatives. The most dangerous man, to any gov't, is the man who is able to think things out for himself, without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the gov't he lives under is dishonest, insane, and intolerable, and so, if he is a romantic, he tries to change it. And even if he is not...he is very apt to spread discontent among those who are. " H.L. Mencken How sweet it is! The GOP, RIP http://snipurl.com/w7d6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 > I don't know how familiar you are with WAP, but there really isn't > just one kind of diet. aaaa-men! It's the most frustrating thing; I would love it if someone could just say, " Here, eat like this! " but it don't work that way, alas. We all seem to have different body chemistries and tolerances. Lynn S. who seems to do better on a modified " Radiant Recovery " system--at least, the eating breakfast within an hour of rising really works for me... ------ Mama, homeschooler, writer, activist, spinner & knitter http://www.siprelle.com NOTICE: The National Security Agency may have read this email without warning, warrant, or notice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 On 12/15/06, <jcdambrosio@...> wrote: > Hi , > > My workout program varies, but it's usually between 3-5 times a week, > 25-45 minutes a session. Each body part is worked once a week with > multiple sets and exercises to failure. I've been training for 25 > years now so I have that aspect down. Doing reps to failure? People still do that?:-) That is definitely a bodybuilding style regimen you are following. You won't find many folks on this list, at least among those who post, who are fans of bodybuilding anything, lol! > I'm also a personal trainer as > well as a chiropractor (among other things) so I have a good grasp on > anatomy and the physiological processes of the body. That being said, > it was the science behind WAPF that caught my eye and made sense to me. > > The way my body is responding is what's throwing me off. I understand > that previously when I was eating lots of carbs in the form of lots of > fruits and some vegetables I was also consuming a lot of fiber which > could have, in theory at least, caused the number of calories consumed > to be a bit greater than the number of calories actually absorbed. > This could have been playing a part in my inability to gain muscle and > eating at my maximum capacity at the time. Like I said, over the > course of a few months I lost 20 pounds, most of which was fat. I'm not sure what the great mystery is. When you were eating a vegan style diet you were essentially on a catabolic diet. It is easy to lose weight that way. The fact that you were doing weight training exercises prevented your body from catabolizing a lot of muscle *initially*. Had you stayed on that diet however the process would have accelerated despite the exercise. > I was > fairly lean (at least to the eye) to begin with so when I dropped so > many sizes in pants and a size in shirts it tugged at my ego. Losing > over an inch on my arms was the hardest part for me and although I had > only lost a couple of pounds of muscle, people asking me if I still > worked out (my clothes were all baggy) got the best of me so I looked > to change my eating to see if I could gain some more muscle. I had > assumed it was lack of protein (again, only 5% of my diet was protein > at the time) so I added some raw eggs to my shakes. At around 4 eggs > or so a day I was able to get my protein up a bit (considering it was > negligible pre-eggs). Of course you probably already know that fat, especially lots of it, spares protein. By the way you might this website of interest: http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/ He has a fairly good article about athletes and low carbing. -- " All [gov't] can see in an original idea is potential change, and hence an invasion of its prerogatives. The most dangerous man, to any gov't, is the man who is able to think things out for himself, without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the gov't he lives under is dishonest, insane, and intolerable, and so, if he is a romantic, he tries to change it. And even if he is not...he is very apt to spread discontent among those who are. " H.L. Mencken How sweet it is! The GOP, RIP http://snipurl.com/w7d6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 On 12/18/06, D'Ambrosio <jcdambrosio@...> wrote: >> 5. Do you know four eggs are only about 28 grams of protein max? > I am very aware of the amount of protein in the eggs I was eating, as well as any protein I > obtained from fruits and vegetables. I tracked everything thoroughly on Nutridiary.com > > and was able to see what my macronutrient ratios and amounts were with every meal and > daily. , It might be helpful you posted your specific macronutrients and amounts for a given week. >> 6. How much do you weigh? How much protein do you eat, on average, >> in a day? > I weigh 170 lbs now and eat 170-220 grams of protein a day. Okay it appears your diet is about 40% protein (taking the high end number), 50% fat, and 10% carbs. On a diet of 2250 calories, that is still a lot of carbs from a low or lower carb perspective. So I don't think your carb intake is essentially nil with a few minor exceptions. those exceptions may be making a big difference, but it is just an educated guess on my part . IMO, I would dramatically lower the carb intake, slightly lower the protein intake, while simultaneously increasing your fat intake. Or better yet, follow the metabolic diet which allows for higher carb intake a couple of days a week. >> 8. What sort of exercise do you do to burn fat and how often? >Building muscle through intense weight training 3-5 times a week works well for burning >fat for me. I rarely had much need to do any aerobic exercise, although I do try to take 45 >minute walks a few times a week just to clear my head. When I get the urge I'll also hit >the heavy bag for 10-15 minutes in an interval training sort of method but I haven't done >that in quite some time. While I believe that aerobics is *highly overrated* as a fat burning measure (although I think there are other benefits), adopting a regular interval training program of some sort may just be what the doctor ordered at this point in your life. A good one can be grueling, but they work. Just some suggestions. -- " All [gov't] can see in an original idea is potential change, and hence an invasion of its prerogatives. The most dangerous man, to any gov't, is the man who is able to think things out for himself, without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the gov't he lives under is dishonest, insane, and intolerable, and so, if he is a romantic, he tries to change it. And even if he is not...he is very apt to spread discontent among those who are. " H.L. Mencken How sweet it is! The GOP, RIP http://snipurl.com/w7d6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 On 12/19/06, downwardog7 <illneverbecool@...> wrote: > > I weigh 170 lbs now and eat 170-220 grams of protein a day. > > What a radical switch--how do you feel? Ever get any symptoms of too > much protein? Franco Columbu says one gram protein per kilo of > bodyweight--what do you think of that? Franco Columbu?? Now there is a blast from the past! The Governator's old training partner and twice Mr. Olympia (though he had no business being awarded the Sandow the second time around). Hmmm...you might be dating yourself here. Are you currently reading his material or do you remember him from days past? :-) http://www.columbu.com/ By the way, IIRC, the general WAPF recommendation is about 30% protein though that may or may not be applicable to weight trainers. > > Building muscle through intense weight training 3-5 times a week > works well for burning fat for me. I rarely had much need to do any > aerobic exercise, although I do try to take 45 minute walks a few > times a week just to clear my head. When I get the urge I'll also hit > the heavy bag for 10-15 minutes in an interval training sort of method > but I haven't done that in quite some time. > > Do any pull-ups? Good... > Anyway, the deal afaik is that in order to cut, one needs to restrict > calories--let me know if you find out otherwise, please! Sounds like > you've got a lot of awareness, I just enjoy the topic and I'm > chit-chatting. What is interesting that bodybuilders of lore used to cut carbs (including Dr. Colombu) and not fat. They also didn't not believe in bulking up and then cutting down for a contest. The prevailing philosophy at the time was that one should be at their *heaviest* on the day of the contest! That might explain (among other things) why the old school guys and gals looked a tad bit healthier (to say the least) than their new school counterparts. -- " All [gov't] can see in an original idea is potential change, and hence an invasion of its prerogatives. The most dangerous man, to any gov't, is the man who is able to think things out for himself, without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the gov't he lives under is dishonest, insane, and intolerable, and so, if he is a romantic, he tries to change it. And even if he is not...he is very apt to spread discontent among those who are. " H.L. Mencken How sweet it is! The GOP, RIP http://snipurl.com/w7d6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 , I don't find it boring at all. Over at CST we have people doing exclusively whole-body, with Clubbells as the weight and putting on mass, doing the usual = Working hard enough to cause adaptation and eating enough to support that adaptation. There's an interesting working theory about using a 4-day sequence of exertion and recovery = medium, hard, none, light exertion. In the scale of Perceived Exertion this works out to medium=5-6, hard 7-9, none 0-1, light 2-3. This seems to keep the CNS humming but never exhausted and with a really fast capacity for adaptation. We don't go to 10 or failure in training, that's kept for real life lifting-the- truck-off-the-baby situations. Most people seem to really respond to that with whole-body exercises and it saves the complicated figuring out which muscles are tired on which day which most of us don't want to bother with and don't aspire to anyway. But it does require faith that whole body exercises mean the physique will develop beautifully without concentrating, body- building style, on this or that muscle. Which I find to be true. Not just beautiful physiques but juicy, fluid movement too. Connie > As I also enjoy the topic, if you'd like to email me privately in case the group is getting bored by our conversation, feel free to do so. I'd love to hear from you. Thanks again for everything! > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 Connie, Thanks for posting this. I myself subscribe to this view though I don't work out very often. When I do I mostly do sets of pull ups, dips, Indian style pushups in a sequence and then finish with Indian style squats and a backbridge. My focus is not on becoming big - rather on staying lean and have a decent to good power/bodyweight ratio. I have noticed that I do start gaining muscle mass even with the above regiment done thrice a week. Thanks Sanjay --- In , " cbrown2008 " <cbrown2008@...> wrote: > > , I don't find it boring at all. > > Over at CST we have people doing exclusively whole-body, with > Clubbells as the weight and putting on mass, > doing the usual = Working hard enough to cause adaptation and > eating enough to support that adaptation. > > There's an interesting working theory about using a 4-day sequence of > exertion and recovery = medium, hard, none, light exertion. In the > scale of Perceived Exertion this works out to medium=5-6, hard 7-9, > none 0-1, light 2-3. This seems to keep the CNS humming but never > exhausted and with a really fast capacity for adaptation. We don't go > to 10 or failure in training, that's kept for real life lifting-the- > truck-off-the-baby situations. > > Most people seem to really respond to that with whole-body exercises > and it saves the complicated figuring out which muscles are tired on > which day which most of us don't want to bother with and don't aspire > to anyway. But it does require faith that whole body exercises mean > the physique will develop beautifully without concentrating, body- > building style, on this or that muscle. Which I find to be true. Not > just beautiful physiques but juicy, fluid movement too. > > Connie > > > As I also enjoy the topic, if you'd like to email me privately in > case the group is getting bored by our conversation, feel free to do > so. I'd love to hear from you. Thanks again for everything! > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 On 12/19/06, D'Ambrosio <jcdambrosio@...> wrote: > My goals, in the most vague sense, are to build as much muscle as possible without >gaining lots of fat which is usually the case with traditional " bulking " phases. At 5'8 " I'd >like to ideally be 175-180 while keeping my 32 " waist and having a body fat % of 8-10%. >Full body workouts are very taxing on the system without fully exhausting or working a >particular body part. I do incorporate them in for variety on occasion but find (and have >found from past trials) that long term full body training on one day drains me systemically >without creating enough of a stimulus for growth. I usually end up losing size after doing >full body training for more than a few weeks to a month. ****** That's interesting. When I was full on into Olympic lifting every part of my body came up except my chest, which for purposes of bodyshaping had to be isolated, but had absolutely no effect on my ability to do the classic lifts. On the other hand if maximum hypertrophy (muscular growth) is your primary goal, then nothing beats bodybuilding. That doesn't appear to be the goal of most folks on this list however. > There's nothing wrong with internet speculation, and yes, it's quite possible that the 3 >pounds of muscle I lost may have been to training to failure while not getting enough >protein, but I could have also lost a chunk of the 20 pounds of fat due to the training to >failure so it was a fair trade-off. ****** It seems to me that any weight bearing exercise on such a diet would have spared muscle initially. I know when I fast it certainly slows down any muscle loss, but over time that benefit is lost if the diet is not up to par nutritionally. <snip> > There is so much information, a lot backed by research, that tout different amounts of >protein for someone who is training. They vary from the 1 gram per kilogram you stated, >.6 grams per pound of body weight to 1.5-2 grams per pound. It was part of this confusion >that attracted me to trying to go with the minimum protein amounts. I figured the best way >to determine my needs would be to start at the bottom, and since the amino acid >recycling seemed to make sense, I gave it a shot. ****** That also is very interesting. From my research amino acid recycling is usually associated with fasting, not eating. > As I also enjoy the topic, if you'd like to email me privately in case the group is getting >bored by our conversation, feel free to do so. I'd love to hear from you. Thanks again for >everything! ****** I think the rest of the list would enjoy that conversation as well. Exercise certainly is not off-topic. By the way, is this you? http://www.exercisecertification.com/success/Dambrosio/Dambrosio.html -- " All [gov't] can see in an original idea is potential change, and hence an invasion of its prerogatives. The most dangerous man, to any gov't, is the man who is able to think things out for himself, without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the gov't he lives under is dishonest, insane, and intolerable, and so, if he is a romantic, he tries to change it. And even if he is not...he is very apt to spread discontent among those who are. " H.L. Mencken How sweet it is! The GOP, RIP http://snipurl.com/w7d6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 --- In , " cbrown2008 " <cbrown2008@...> wrote: > Over at CST we have people doing exclusively whole-body, with > Clubbells as the weight and putting on mass, > doing the usual = Working hard enough to cause adaptation and > eating enough to support that adaptation. > > There's an interesting working theory about using a 4-day sequence of > exertion and recovery = medium, hard, none, light exertion. In the > scale of Perceived Exertion this works out to medium=5-6, hard 7-9, > none 0-1, light 2-3. This seems to keep the CNS humming but never > exhausted and with a really fast capacity for adaptation. We don't go > to 10 or failure in training, that's kept for real life lifting-the- > truck-off-the-baby situations. Coach Connie is a ninja. Assassination is imminent. B. p.s. hey, Connie, guess who manifested three sets of clubs? <looks over shoulder> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 Haha, that was me a few years ago! I'll respond to the rest later, thanks for the embarrassment! <slethnobotanist@...> wrote: On 12/19/06, D'Ambrosio <jcdambrosio@...> wrote: > My goals, in the most vague sense, are to build as much muscle as possible without >gaining lots of fat which is usually the case with traditional " bulking " phases. At 5'8 " I'd >like to ideally be 175-180 while keeping my 32 " waist and having a body fat % of 8-10%. >Full body workouts are very taxing on the system without fully exhausting or working a >particular body part. I do incorporate them in for variety on occasion but find (and have >found from past trials) that long term full body training on one day drains me systemically >without creating enough of a stimulus for growth. I usually end up losing size after doing >full body training for more than a few weeks to a month. ****** That's interesting. When I was full on into Olympic lifting every part of my body came up except my chest, which for purposes of bodyshaping had to be isolated, but had absolutely no effect on my ability to do the classic lifts. On the other hand if maximum hypertrophy (muscular growth) is your primary goal, then nothing beats bodybuilding. That doesn't appear to be the goal of most folks on this list however. > There's nothing wrong with internet speculation, and yes, it's quite possible that the 3 >pounds of muscle I lost may have been to training to failure while not getting enough >protein, but I could have also lost a chunk of the 20 pounds of fat due to the training to >failure so it was a fair trade-off. ****** It seems to me that any weight bearing exercise on such a diet would have spared muscle initially. I know when I fast it certainly slows down any muscle loss, but over time that benefit is lost if the diet is not up to par nutritionally. <snip> > There is so much information, a lot backed by research, that tout different amounts of >protein for someone who is training. They vary from the 1 gram per kilogram you stated, >.6 grams per pound of body weight to 1.5-2 grams per pound. It was part of this confusion >that attracted me to trying to go with the minimum protein amounts. I figured the best way >to determine my needs would be to start at the bottom, and since the amino acid >recycling seemed to make sense, I gave it a shot. ****** That also is very interesting. From my research amino acid recycling is usually associated with fasting, not eating. > As I also enjoy the topic, if you'd like to email me privately in case the group is getting >bored by our conversation, feel free to do so. I'd love to hear from you. Thanks again for >everything! ****** I think the rest of the list would enjoy that conversation as well. Exercise certainly is not off-topic. By the way, is this you? http://www.exercisecertification.com/success/Dambrosio/Dambrosio.html -- " All [gov't] can see in an original idea is potential change, and hence an invasion of its prerogatives. The most dangerous man, to any gov't, is the man who is able to think things out for himself, without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the gov't he lives under is dishonest, insane, and intolerable, and so, if he is a romantic, he tries to change it. And even if he is not...he is very apt to spread discontent among those who are. " H.L. Mencken How sweet it is! The GOP, RIP http://snipurl.com/w7d6 __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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