Doug? Vaccines?

[Guest guest]

Hi everybody,

I told you the other day that I belonged to another group with a pharmacologist on it, who is also a medical doctor and teaches pharmacology at a medical school, about the possible link between autism and vaccines.

So here is his response. He has asked me to not include his address, as he said he did not want to get any letters from "irate mothers," so I have honored his request. He is really a good guy, but we have had some very heated debates in our other group about this, that have gotten pretty bad at times and have caused hard feelings.

Anyway in the end we must all just make up our own minds about this, and so many other things in life also I think.

Much love, and I hope this helps a bit,

Carolyn

########################################################################################

Dear Doug,

I am writing to ask you what you know about baby vaccinations. I belong to another group about childhood autism, since my son Marty has this along with his many other problems, and the ladies have been discussing whether their children's vaccinations may have caused the autism. The incidence of autism has been increasing in the past 15-20 years. We don't know why. At least part of it is that the diagnosis of autism has simply increased. Many kids are now (correctly) diagnosed with autism that would have been previously labeled with various other behavioral disorders and marginalized. So as our sensitivity to autism has increased, so has the diagnosis. We've seen similar increases in diabetes and high cholesterol for the same reason, we're simply better at finding these diseases. But that doesn't explain everything.People want to latch onto something to blame. So among the things they have latched onto are vaccines. Despite the fact that tremendous morbidity (disease) and mortality (death) has been prevented by vaccines, some people see them as the embodiment of evil. There is no dissuading them no matter how much scientific evidence you present to them.In order to prove cause and effect you have to use the "scientific method." In other words, you have to take a bunch of children and divide them into two groups, Group A and Group B. Group A gets the vaccine, Group B doesn't. This is called a clinical trial. If Group A has a whole lot more autism than Group B, then we can say the vaccine caused the autism. Of course, such a study could never be done. Vaccines are such an accepted benefit that it would be considered unethical to leave one group of children unvaccinated. What we have to rely on then are epidemiologic studies.An epidemiologic (or observational) study is one where you look at a group of people and see with what frequency something occurs. Epidemiologic studies are useful in that they can tell us if there is a relationship between two things - a link - such as vaccines and autism. But epidemiologic studies *cannot* tell us cause and effect. You hear the term "junk science" bantered around - junk science is when you make cause and effect statements based on epidemiologic studies. This is hard for some people to accept - they want to jump from the link to saying it is the cause. But that simply isn't good science.Testimonials, also called "case reports," are the lowest level of medical scientific evidence. While clinical trials allow us to make cause and effect statements, and epidemiologic studies allow us to make links, case reports only allow us to say "these things happened." They do *not* allow us to make cause/effect or link statements. They are useful because they can serve as the basis for clinical trials or epidemiologic studies. Those who believe there is a link between autism and vaccines rely heavily on testimonials. "My child has autism and received vaccines, therefore the vaccines caused the autism." But their child also breathes air and drinks water. It would be every bit as valid to conclude that water and/or air caused the autism.

Seems like we were on this subject here in AG once before, and if I remember correctly you said that the mercury had been taken out of the vaccinations. Yet these mothers are complaining that the mercury is still in them and has harmed their children.No credible scientific study, clinical trial or epidemiologic study, yet has found a link between autism and thiomersal, a mercury containing preservative found in vaccines. There has even been yet another study published in Lancet (one of the most well-respected and widely read medical journals, on a par with New England Journal) this month that once again refuted any link between thiomersal and autism. Here is a fact, US vaccine manufacturers have been *decreasing* the use of thiomersal over the past 10 years, and there are only a few vaccines left containing thiomersal. Meanwhile, the incidence of autism has *increased* over the past 10 years. So, if there were a strong link between the two, the incidence of autism would have decreased as manufacturers took thiomersal out of their vaccines. Also, in the few third world countries where thiomersal containing vaccines are still widely used, autism is rare.

I told them I would write to you and see what you had to say on this subject. Aren't children's vaccinations quite safe these days? Safe is always a relative term when medications, including vaccines are concerned. All medications, including vaccines, have side effects. Most of them are mild and common, some are potentially serious but rare. Where I think the anti-vaccine crowd has a good point is that physicians, nurses, and pharmacists who administer vaccines do not know enough about the potential adverse effects and do not do a good enough job of educating patients about them. We should *only* use medications were the benefits clearly outweigh the risks. There are a couple of vaccines where I think the benefits are questionable (hepatitis A vaccine, for instance).On the other hand, we know plenty about the deadly disease that vaccines combat. Smallpox has been eradicated. Flu epidemics used to kill millions of people every year (people still die from the flu). Very few new cases of polio are seen in the US. Those who refuse to vaccinate their children are also protected by all the kids who are vaccinated (this is called "herd effect"). In essence, they are saying, "Vaccinate *your* kid and expose him to the risks of the vaccine so that it will protect my kid." I'll let you decide for yourself about the ethics and morality of that.You likely won't convince these people, even with what I've written here. My advice to you is be sympathetic to their plight, and pray for them and minister to them.

[Guest guest]

Hi Carolyn,

Thank you so much for this!! This is the type of info that I joined this group for, so that I can get the full picture and truth.

I do have one question on my mind at the moment however, I was lead to believe that it is compulsory to be vaccinated in the USA - however I have read on numerous chatbacks that there is an outbreaking of whooping cough - I thought whooping cough was one thing that was vaccinated for? Can anyone shed some light.

P.S can you please email me the other site????

colin68@...

Cheers

Sharyn

Doug? Vaccines?

Hi everybody,

I told you the other day that I belonged to another group with a pharmacologist on it, who is also a medical doctor and teaches pharmacology at a medical school, about the possible link between autism and vaccines.

So here is his response. He has asked me to not include his address, as he said he did not want to get any letters from "irate mothers," so I have honored his request. He is really a good guy, but we have had some very heated debates in our other group about this, that have gotten pretty bad at times and have caused hard feelings.

Anyway in the end we must all just make up our own minds about this, and so many other things in life also I think.

Much love, and I hope this helps a bit,

Carolyn

########################################################################################

Dear Doug,

I am writing to ask you what you know about baby vaccinations. I belong to another group about childhood autism, since my son Marty has this along with his many other problems, and the ladies have been discussing whether their children's vaccinations may have caused the autism. The incidence of autism has been increasing in the past 15-20 years. We don't know why. At least part of it is that the diagnosis of autism has simply increased. Many kids are now (correctly) diagnosed with autism that would have been previously labeled with various other behavioral disorders and marginalized. So as our sensitivity to autism has increased, so has the diagnosis. We've seen similar increases in diabetes and high cholesterol for the same reason, we're simply better at finding these diseases. But that doesn't explain everything.People want to latch onto something to blame. So among the things they have latched onto are vaccines. Despite the fact that tremendous morbidity (disease) and mortality (death) has been prevented by vaccines, some people see them as the embodiment of evil. There is no dissuading them no matter how much scientific evidence you present to them.In order to prove cause and effect you have to use the "scientific method." In other words, you have to take a bunch of children and divide them into two groups, Group A and Group B. Group A gets the vaccine, Group B doesn't. This is called a clinical trial. If Group A has a whole lot more autism than Group B, then we can say the vaccine caused the autism. Of course, such a study could never be done. Vaccines are such an accepted benefit that it would be considered unethical to leave one group of children unvaccinated. What we have to rely on then are epidemiologic studies.An epidemiologic (or observational) study is one where you look at a group of people and see with what frequency something occurs. Epidemiologic studies are useful in that they can tell us if there is a relationship between two things - a link - such as vaccines and autism. But epidemiologic studies *cannot* tell us cause and effect. You hear the term "junk science" bantered around - junk science is when you make cause and effect statements based on epidemiologic studies. This is hard for some people to accept - they want to jump from the link to saying it is the cause. But that simply isn't good science.Testimonials, also called "case reports," are the lowest level of medical scientific evidence. While clinical trials allow us to make cause and effect statements, and epidemiologic studies allow us to make links, case reports only allow us to say "these things happened." They do *not* allow us to make cause/effect or link statements. They are useful because they can serve as the basis for clinical trials or epidemiologic studies. Those who believe there is a link between autism and vaccines rely heavily on testimonials. "My child has autism and received vaccines, therefore the vaccines caused the autism." But their child also breathes air and drinks water. It would be every bit as valid to conclude that water and/or air caused the autism.

Seems like we were on this subject here in AG once before, and if I remember correctly you said that the mercury had been taken out of the vaccinations. Yet these mothers are complaining that the mercury is still in them and has harmed their children.No credible scientific study, clinical trial or epidemiologic study, yet has found a link between autism and thiomersal, a mercury containing preservative found in vaccines. There has even been yet another study published in Lancet (one of the most well-respected and widely read medical journals, on a par with New England Journal) this month that once again refuted any link between thiomersal and autism. Here is a fact, US vaccine manufacturers have been *decreasing* the use of thiomersal over the past 10 years, and there are only a few vaccines left containing thiomersal. Meanwhile, the incidence of autism has *increased* over the past 10 years. So, if there were a strong link between the two, the incidence of autism would have decreased as manufacturers took thiomersal out of their vaccines. Also, in the few third world countries where thiomersal containing vaccines are still widely used, autism is rare.

I told them I would write to you and see what you had to say on this subject. Aren't children's vaccinations quite safe these days? Safe is always a relative term when medications, including vaccines are concerned. All medications, including vaccines, have side effects. Most of them are mild and common, some are potentially serious but rare. Where I think the anti-vaccine crowd has a good point is that physicians, nurses, and pharmacists who administer vaccines do not know enough about the potential adverse effects and do not do a good enough job of educating patients about them. We should *only* use medications were the benefits clearly outweigh the risks. There are a couple of vaccines where I think the benefits are questionable (hepatitis A vaccine, for instance).On the other hand, we know plenty about the deadly disease that vaccines combat. Smallpox has been eradicated. Flu epidemics used to kill millions of people every year (people still die from the flu). Very few new cases of polio are seen in the US. Those who refuse to vaccinate their children are also protected by all the kids who are vaccinated (this is called "herd effect"). In essence, they are saying, "Vaccinate *your* kid and expose him to the risks of the vaccine so that it will protect my kid." I'll let you decide for yourself about the ethics and morality of that.You likely won't convince these people, even with what I've written here. My advice to you is be sympathetic to their plight, and pray for them and minister to them.

[Guest guest]

Hi Sharyn,

Well here in the U.S. if you want your children to attend school, yes they have to be vaccinated. We had to get my little grandson one more that he had missed last year or we could not enroll him. They are very strict on this. I don't know how parents are getting their kids in school without them, as evidentially some don't let their kids have them. I have no idea.

I don't have a website for any other group accept for my own support group I just started for parents of disabled children, focusing on the home as being the center base for all care, ideas, intuition, etc.

It is at HomeroomForJesus

If anybody would like to join, I would be happy to have you. As you can see I approach the subject from a Christian perspective myself, but all who want to join can. I am planning on sharing my book there, just start with the first chapter and begin to send it out on line for people to read. It is about me taking care of my severely brain damaged son, Marty, all of his life, and reveals the things I found to help me and is called;

"Why Didn't Anybody Ever Tell Me About This!"

I hope lots of you join and we can get going on it.

My best wishes to you all,

Carolyn in Oregon

Doug? Vaccines?

Hi everybody,

I told you the other day that I belonged to another group with a pharmacologist on it, who is also a medical doctor and teaches pharmacology at a medical school, about the possible link between autism and vaccines.

So here is his response. He has asked me to not include his address, as he said he did not want to get any letters from "irate mothers," so I have honored his request. He is really a good guy, but we have had some very heated debates in our other group about this, that have gotten pretty bad at times and have caused hard feelings.

Anyway in the end we must all just make up our own minds about this, and so many other things in life also I think.

Much love, and I hope this helps a bit,

Carolyn

########################################################################################

Dear Doug,

I am writing to ask you what you know about baby vaccinations. I belong to another group about childhood autism, since my son Marty has this along with his many other problems, and the ladies have been discussing whether their children's vaccinations may have caused the autism. The incidence of autism has been increasing in the past 15-20 years. We don't know why. At least part of it is that the diagnosis of autism has simply increased. Many kids are now (correctly) diagnosed with autism that would have been previously labeled with various other behavioral disorders and marginalized. So as our sensitivity to autism has increased, so has the diagnosis. We've seen similar increases in diabetes and high cholesterol for the same reason, we're simply better at finding these diseases. But that doesn't explain everything.People want to latch onto something to blame. So among the things they have latched onto are vaccines. Despite the fact that tremendous morbidity (disease) and mortality (death) has been prevented by vaccines, some people see them as the embodiment of evil. There is no dissuading them no matter how much scientific evidence you present to them.In order to prove cause and effect you have to use the "scientific method." In other words, you have to take a bunch of children and divide them into two groups, Group A and Group B. Group A gets the vaccine, Group B doesn't. This is called a clinical trial. If Group A has a whole lot more autism than Group B, then we can say the vaccine caused the autism. Of course, such a study could never be done. Vaccines are such an accepted benefit that it would be considered unethical to leave one group of children unvaccinated. What we have to rely on then are epidemiologic studies.An epidemiologic (or observational) study is one where you look at a group of people and see with what frequency something occurs. Epidemiologic studies are useful in that they can tell us if there is a relationship between two things - a link - such as vaccines and autism. But epidemiologic studies *cannot* tell us cause and effect. You hear the term "junk science" bantered around - junk science is when you make cause and effect statements based on epidemiologic studies. This is hard for some people to accept - they want to jump from the link to saying it is the cause. But that simply isn't good science.Testimonials, also called "case reports," are the lowest level of medical scientific evidence. While clinical trials allow us to make cause and effect statements, and epidemiologic studies allow us to make links, case reports only allow us to say "these things happened." They do *not* allow us to make cause/effect or link statements. They are useful because they can serve as the basis for clinical trials or epidemiologic studies. Those who believe there is a link between autism and vaccines rely heavily on testimonials. "My child has autism and received vaccines, therefore the vaccines caused the autism." But their child also breathes air and drinks water. It would be every bit as valid to conclude that water and/or air caused the autism.

Seems like we were on this subject here in AG once before, and if I remember correctly you said that the mercury had been taken out of the vaccinations. Yet these mothers are complaining that the mercury is still in them and has harmed their children.No credible scientific study, clinical trial or epidemiologic study, yet has found a link between autism and thiomersal, a mercury containing preservative found in vaccines. There has even been yet another study published in Lancet (one of the most well-respected and widely read medical journals, on a par with New England Journal) this month that once again refuted any link between thiomersal and autism. Here is a fact, US vaccine manufacturers have been *decreasing* the use of thiomersal over the past 10 years, and there are only a few vaccines left containing thiomersal. Meanwhile, the incidence of autism has *increased* over the past 10 years. So, if there were a strong link between the two, the incidence of autism would have decreased as manufacturers took thiomersal out of their vaccines. Also, in the few third world countries where thiomersal containing vaccines are still widely used, autism is rare.

I told them I would write to you and see what you had to say on this subject. Aren't children's vaccinations quite safe these days? Safe is always a relative term when medications, including vaccines are concerned. All medications, including vaccines, have side effects. Most of them are mild and common, some are potentially serious but rare. Where I think the anti-vaccine crowd has a good point is that physicians, nurses, and pharmacists who administer vaccines do not know enough about the potential adverse effects and do not do a good enough job of educating patients about them. We should *only* use medications were the benefits clearly outweigh the risks. There are a couple of vaccines where I think the benefits are questionable (hepatitis A vaccine, for instance).On the other hand, we know plenty about the deadly disease that vaccines combat. Smallpox has been eradicated. Flu epidemics used to kill millions of people every year (people still die from the flu). Very few new cases of polio are seen in the US. Those who refuse to vaccinate their children are also protected by all the kids who are vaccinated (this is called "herd effect"). In essence, they are saying, "Vaccinate *your* kid and expose him to the risks of the vaccine so that it will protect my kid." I'll let you decide for yourself about the ethics and morality of that.You likely won't convince these people, even with what I've written here. My advice to you is be sympathetic to their plight, and pray for them and minister to them.

[Guest guest]

I live in an area where vaccines (and everything else) is a big debate...major liberal university town, so many are not vaccinated. All you need to do is to sign a form stating that it goes against religious principles and voila! no vaccines.

Carolyn <charper777@...> wrote:

Hi Sharyn,

Well here in the U.S. if you want your children to attend school, yes they have to be vaccinated. We had to get my little grandson one more that he had missed last year or we could not enroll him. They are very strict on this. I don't know how parents are getting their kids in school without them, as evidentially some don't let their kids have them. I have no idea.

I don't have a website for any other group accept for my own support group I just started for parents of disabled children, focusing on the home as being the center base for all care, ideas, intuition, etc.

It is at HomeroomForJesus

If anybody would like to join, I would be happy to have you. As you can see I approach the subject from a Christian perspective myself, but all who want to join can. I am planning on sharing my book there, just start with the first chapter and begin to send it out on line for people to read. It is about me taking care of my severely brain damaged son, Marty, all of his life, and reveals the things I found to help me and is called;

"Why Didn't Anybody Ever Tell Me About This!"

I hope lots of you join and we can get going on it.

My best wishes to you all,

Carolyn in Oregon

Doug? Vaccines?

Hi everybody,

I told you the other day that I belonged to another group with a pharmacologist on it, who is also a medical doctor and teaches pharmacology at a medical school, about the possible link between autism and vaccines.

So here is his response. He has asked me to not include his address, as he said he did not want to get any letters from "irate mothers," so I have honored his request. He is really a good guy, but we have had some very heated debates in our other group about this, that have gotten pretty bad at times and have caused hard feelings.

Anyway in the end we must all just make up our own minds about this, and so many other things in life also I think.

Much love, and I hope this helps a bit,

Carolyn

########################################################################################

Dear Doug,

I am writing to ask you what you know about baby vaccinations. I belong to another group about childhood autism, since my son Marty has this along with his many other problems, and the ladies have been discussing whether their children's vaccinations may have caused the autism. The incidence of autism has been increasing in the past 15-20 years. We don't know why. At least part of it is that the diagnosis of autism has simply increased. Many kids are now (correctly) diagnosed with autism that would have been previously labeled with various other behavioral disorders and marginalized. So as our sensitivity to autism has increased, so has the diagnosis. We've seen similar increases in diabetes and high cholesterol for the same reason, we're simply better at finding these diseases. But that doesn't explain everything.People want to latch onto something to

blame. So among the things they have latched onto are vaccines. Despite the fact that tremendous morbidity (disease) and mortality (death) has been prevented by vaccines, some people see them as the embodiment of evil. There is no dissuading them no matter how much scientific evidence you present to them.In order to prove cause and effect you have to use the "scientific method." In other words, you have to take a bunch of children and divide them into two groups, Group A and Group B. Group A gets the vaccine, Group B doesn't. This is called a clinical trial. If Group A has a whole lot more autism than Group B, then we can say the vaccine caused the autism. Of course, such a study could never be done. Vaccines are such an accepted benefit that it would be considered unethical to leave one group of children unvaccinated. What we have to rely on then are epidemiologic studies.An epidemiologic (or observational)

study is one where you look at a group of people and see with what frequency something occurs. Epidemiologic studies are useful in that they can tell us if there is a relationship between two things - a link - such as vaccines and autism. But epidemiologic studies *cannot* tell us cause and effect. You hear the term "junk science" bantered around - junk science is when you make cause and effect statements based on epidemiologic studies. This is hard for some people to accept - they want to jump from the link to saying it is the cause. But that simply isn't good science.Testimonials, also called "case reports," are the lowest level of medical scientific evidence. While clinical trials allow us to make cause and effect statements, and epidemiologic studies allow us to make links, case reports only allow us to say "these things happened." They do *not* allow us to make cause/effect or link statements. They are useful because they

can serve as the basis for clinical trials or epidemiologic studies. Those who believe there is a link between autism and vaccines rely heavily on testimonials. "My child has autism and received vaccines, therefore the vaccines caused the autism." But their child also breathes air and drinks water. It would be every bit as valid to conclude that water and/or air caused the autism.

Seems like we were on this subject here in AG once before, and if I remember correctly you said that the mercury had been taken out of the vaccinations. Yet these mothers are complaining that the mercury is still in them and has harmed their children.No credible scientific study, clinical trial or epidemiologic study, yet has found a link between autism and thiomersal, a mercury containing preservative found in vaccines. There has even been yet another study published in Lancet (one of the most well-respected and widely read medical journals, on a par with New England Journal) this month that once again refuted any link between thiomersal and autism. Here is a fact, US vaccine manufacturers have been *decreasing* the use of thiomersal over the past 10 years, and there are only a few vaccines left containing thiomersal. Meanwhile, the incidence of

autism has *increased* over the past 10 years. So, if there were a strong link between the two, the incidence of autism would have decreased as manufacturers took thiomersal out of their vaccines. Also, in the few third world countries where thiomersal containing vaccines are still widely used, autism is rare.

I told them I would write to you and see what you had to say on this subject. Aren't children's vaccinations quite safe these days? Safe is always a relative term when medications, including vaccines are concerned. All medications, including vaccines, have side effects. Most of them are mild and common, some are potentially serious but rare. Where I think the anti-vaccine crowd has a good point is that physicians, nurses, and pharmacists who administer vaccines do not know enough about the potential adverse effects and do not do a good enough job of educating patients about them. We should *only* use medications were the benefits clearly outweigh the risks. There are a couple of vaccines where I think the benefits are questionable (hepatitis A vaccine, for instance).On the other hand, we know plenty about the deadly disease that vaccines

combat. Smallpox has been eradicated. Flu epidemics used to kill millions of people every year (people still die from the flu). Very few new cases of polio are seen in the US. Those who refuse to vaccinate their children are also protected by all the kids who are vaccinated (this is called "herd effect"). In essence, they are saying, "Vaccinate *your* kid and expose him to the risks of the vaccine so that it will protect my kid." I'll let you decide for yourself about the ethics and morality of that.You likely won't convince these people, even with what I've written here. My advice to you is be sympathetic to their plight, and pray for them and minister to them.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Carolyn, Vaccination laws are left up to each individual state.

Most states do allow for medical and religious exemptions. Yes, in

many cases, a person can lie about their religion. In our state,

you do not need to say what religion you are, just that you have

a " bona fide religious belief. " You can also state that your belief

is a personal religious belief, which doesn't tie you to any

specific religion. If you would like to know what your state's laws

are you can type in immunization exemptions on any search engine and

you can usually find the information. Disclaimer- I am not

advocating that people not get vaccinated. Just answering your

questions.

Take care,

in NC

> Hi Sharyn,

>

> Well here in the U.S. if you want your children to

> attend school, yes they have to be vaccinated. We had to get

> my little grandson one more that he had missed last year or

> we could not enroll him. They are very strict on this. I

> don't know how parents are getting their kids in school

> without them, as evidentially some don't let their kids have

> them. I have no idea.

>

> I don't have a website for any other group accept for

> my own support group I just started for parents of disabled

> children, focusing on the home as being the center base for

> all care, ideas, intuition, etc.

>

> It is at

> HomeroomForJesus

>

> If anybody would like to join, I would be happy to

> have you. As you can see I approach the subject from a

> Christian perspective myself, but all who want to join can.

> I am planning on sharing my book there, just start with the

> first chapter and begin to send it out on line for people to

> read. It is about me taking care of my severely brain

> damaged son, Marty, all of his life, and reveals the things

> I found to help me and is called;

> " Why Didn't Anybody Ever Tell Me About This! "

>

> I hope lots of you join and we can get going on it.

>

> My best wishes to you all,

> Carolyn in Oregon

>

> Doug? Vaccines?

>

>

> Hi everybody,

>

> I told you the other day that I belonged to another

> group with a pharmacologist on it, who is also a medical

> doctor and teaches pharmacology at a medical school, about

> the possible link between autism and vaccines.

>

> So here is his response. He has asked me to not

> include his address, as he said he did not want to get any

> letters from " irate mothers, " so I have honored his request.

> He is really a good guy, but we have had some very heated

> debates in our other group about this, that have gotten

> pretty bad at times and have caused hard feelings.

>

> Anyway in the end we must all just make up our own

> minds about this, and so many other things in life also I

> think.

>

> Much love, and I hope this helps a bit,

> Carolyn

>

>

> ############################################################

> ############################

> Dear Doug,

>

> I am writing to ask you what you know about baby

> vaccinations. I belong to another group about childhood

> autism, since my son Marty has this along with his many

> other problems, and the ladies have been discussing whether

> their children's vaccinations may have caused the autism.

>

> The incidence of autism has been increasing in the past

> 15-20 years. We don't know why. At least part of it is

> that the diagnosis of autism has simply increased. Many

> kids are now (correctly) diagnosed with autism that would

> have been previously labeled with various other behavioral

> disorders and marginalized. So as our sensitivity to autism

> has increased, so has the diagnosis. We've seen similar

> increases in diabetes and high cholesterol for the same

> reason, we're simply better at finding these diseases. But

> that doesn't explain everything.

>

> People want to latch onto something to blame. So among

> the things they have latched onto are vaccines. Despite the

> fact that tremendous morbidity (disease) and mortality

> (death) has been prevented by vaccines, some people see them

> as the embodiment of evil. There is no dissuading them no

> matter how much scientific evidence you present to them.

>

> In order to prove cause and effect you have to use the

> " scientific method. " In other words, you have to take a

> bunch of children and divide them into two groups, Group A

> and Group B. Group A gets the vaccine, Group B doesn't.

> This is called a clinical trial. If Group A has a whole lot

> more autism than Group B, then we can say the vaccine caused

> the autism. Of course, such a study could never be done.

> Vaccines are such an accepted benefit that it would be

> considered unethical to leave one group of children

> unvaccinated. What we have to rely on then are

> epidemiologic studies.

>

> An epidemiologic (or observational) study is one where

> you look at a group of people and see with what frequency

> something occurs. Epidemiologic studies are useful in that

> they can tell us if there is a relationship between two

> things - a link - such as vaccines and autism. But

> epidemiologic studies *cannot* tell us cause and effect.

> You hear the term " junk science " bantered around - junk

> science is when you make cause and effect statements based

> on epidemiologic studies. This is hard for some people to

> accept - they want to jump from the link to saying it is the

> cause. But that simply isn't good science.

>

> Testimonials, also called " case reports, " are the lowest

> level of medical scientific evidence. While clinical trials

> allow us to make cause and effect statements, and

> epidemiologic studies allow us to make links, case reports

> only allow us to say " these things happened. " They do *not*

> allow us to make cause/effect or link statements. They are

> useful because they can serve as the basis for clinical

> trials or epidemiologic studies. Those who believe there is

> a link between autism and vaccines rely heavily on

> testimonials. " My child has autism and received vaccines,

> therefore the vaccines caused the autism. " But their child

> also breathes air and drinks water. It would be every bit

> as valid to conclude that water and/or air caused the

> autism.

>

>

> Seems like we were on this subject here in AG

> once before, and if I remember correctly you said that the

> mercury had been taken out of the vaccinations. Yet these

> mothers are complaining that the mercury is still in them

> and has harmed their children.

>

> No credible scientific study, clinical trial or

> epidemiologic study, yet has found a link between autism and

> thiomersal, a mercury containing preservative found in

> vaccines. There has even been yet another study published

> in Lancet (one of the most well-respected and widely read

> medical journals, on a par with New England Journal) this

> month that once again refuted any link between thiomersal

> and autism. Here is a fact, US vaccine manufacturers have

> been *decreasing* the use of thiomersal over the past 10

> years, and there are only a few vaccines left containing

> thiomersal. Meanwhile, the incidence of autism has

> *increased* over the past 10 years. So, if there were a

> strong link between the two, the incidence of autism would

> have decreased as manufacturers took thiomersal out of their

> vaccines. Also, in the few third world countries where

> thiomersal containing vaccines are still widely used, autism

> is rare.

>

>

> I told them I would write to you and see what you

> had to say on this subject. Aren't children's vaccinations

> quite safe these days?

>

> Safe is always a relative term when medications,

> including vaccines are concerned. All medications,

> including vaccines, have side effects. Most of them are

> mild and common, some are potentially serious but rare.

> Where I think the anti-vaccine crowd has a good point is

> that physicians, nurses, and pharmacists who administer

> vaccines do not know enough about the potential adverse

> effects and do not do a good enough job of educating

> patients about them. We should *only* use medications were

> the benefits clearly outweigh the risks. There are a couple

> of vaccines where I think the benefits are questionable

> (hepatitis A vaccine, for instance).

>

> On the other hand, we know plenty about the deadly

> disease that vaccines combat. Smallpox has been eradicated.

> Flu epidemics used to kill millions of people every year

> (people still die from the flu). Very few new cases of

> polio are seen in the US. Those who refuse to vaccinate

> their children are also protected by all the kids who are

> vaccinated (this is called " herd effect " ). In essence, they

> are saying, " Vaccinate *your* kid and expose him to the

> risks of the vaccine so that it will protect my kid. " I'll

> let you decide for yourself about the ethics and morality of

> that.

>

> You likely won't convince these people, even with what

> I've written here. My advice to you is be sympathetic to

> their plight, and pray for them and minister to them.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Oh, I didn't know that it didn't matter if the person really had a religion or not. As to the state, I think our state, Oregon, mandates the vaccinations for a child to get into school because when my grandson was lacking one shot last year we took him to the doctor, and the nurse had to call the state and we sat there waiting for quite some time. The nurse insisted he had all his shots, but she learned the state had added one so he had to have it or he couldn't go to school. This was when I had him in 3 year old playschool at our church, so they start young here demanding these shots. I wonder if the same thing might be true also for daycare. I know if I sent my child to daycare I would not want other kids to be there who were not vaccinated for these deadly diseases.

Carolyn

Doug? Vaccines?> > > Hi everybody,> > I told you the other day that I belonged to another> group with a pharmacologist on it, who is also a medical> doctor and teaches pharmacology at a medical school, about> the possible link between autism and vaccines.> > So here is his response. He has asked me to not> include his address, as he said he did not want to get any> letters from "irate mothers," so I have honored his request.> He is really a good guy, but we have had some very heated> debates in our other group about this, that have gotten> pretty bad at times and have caused hard feelings.> > Anyway in the end we must all just make up our own> minds about this, and so many other things in life also I> think.> > Much love, and I hope this helps a bit,> Carolyn> > > ############################################################> ############################> Dear Doug,> > I am writing to ask you what you know about baby> vaccinations. I belong to another group about childhood> autism, since my son Marty has this along with his many> other problems, and the ladies have been discussing whether> their children's vaccinations may have caused the autism.> > The incidence of autism has been increasing in the past> 15-20 years. We don't know why. At least part of it is> that the diagnosis of autism has simply increased. Many> kids are now (correctly) diagnosed with autism that would> have been previously labeled with various other behavioral> disorders and marginalized. So as our sensitivity to autism> has increased, so has the diagnosis. We've seen similar> increases in diabetes and high cholesterol for the same> reason, we're simply better at finding these diseases. But> that doesn't explain everything.> > People want to latch onto something to blame. So among> the things they have latched onto are vaccines. Despite the> fact that tremendous morbidity (disease) and mortality> (death) has been prevented by vaccines, some people see them> as the embodiment of evil. There is no dissuading them no> matter how much scientific evidence you present to them.> > In order to prove cause and effect you have to use the> "scientific method." In other words, you have to take a> bunch of children and divide them into two groups, Group A> and Group B. Group A gets the vaccine, Group B doesn't.> This is called a clinical trial. If Group A has a whole lot> more autism than Group B, then we can say the vaccine caused> the autism. Of course, such a study could never be done.> Vaccines are such an accepted benefit that it would be> considered unethical to leave one group of children> unvaccinated. What we have to rely on then are> epidemiologic studies.> > An epidemiologic (or observational) study is one where> you look at a group of people and see with what frequency> something occurs. Epidemiologic studies are useful in that> they can tell us if there is a relationship between two> things - a link - such as vaccines and autism. But> epidemiologic studies *cannot* tell us cause and effect.> You hear the term "junk science" bantered around - junk> science is when you make cause and effect statements based> on epidemiologic studies. This is hard for some people to> accept - they want to jump from the link to saying it is the> cause. But that simply isn't good science.> > Testimonials, also called "case reports," are the lowest> level of medical scientific evidence. While clinical trials> allow us to make cause and effect statements, and> epidemiologic studies allow us to make links, case reports> only allow us to say "these things happened." They do *not*> allow us to make cause/effect or link statements. They are> useful because they can serve as the basis for clinical> trials or epidemiologic studies. Those who believe there is> a link between autism and vaccines rely heavily on> testimonials. "My child has autism and received vaccines,> therefore the vaccines caused the autism." But their child> also breathes air and drinks water. It would be every bit> as valid to conclude that water and/or air caused the> autism.> > > Seems like we were on this subject here in AG> once before, and if I remember correctly you said that the> mercury had been taken out of the vaccinations. Yet these> mothers are complaining that the mercury is still in them> and has harmed their children.> > No credible scientific study, clinical trial or> epidemiologic study, yet has found a link between autism and> thiomersal, a mercury containing preservative found in> vaccines. There has even been yet another study published> in Lancet (one of the most well-respected and widely read> medical journals, on a par with New England Journal) this> month that once again refuted any link between thiomersal> and autism. Here is a fact, US vaccine manufacturers have> been *decreasing* the use of thiomersal over the past 10> years, and there are only a few vaccines left containing> thiomersal. Meanwhile, the incidence of autism has> *increased* over the past 10 years. So, if there were a> strong link between the two, the incidence of autism would> have decreased as manufacturers took thiomersal out of their> vaccines. Also, in the few third world countries where> thiomersal containing vaccines are still widely used, autism> is rare.> > > I told them I would write to you and see what you> had to say on this subject. Aren't children's vaccinations> quite safe these days?> > Safe is always a relative term when medications,> including vaccines are concerned. All medications,> including vaccines, have side effects. Most of them are> mild and common, some are potentially serious but rare.> Where I think the anti-vaccine crowd has a good point is> that physicians, nurses, and pharmacists who administer> vaccines do not know enough about the potential adverse> effects and do not do a good enough job of educating> patients about them. We should *only* use medications were> the benefits clearly outweigh the risks. There are a couple> of vaccines where I think the benefits are questionable> (hepatitis A vaccine, for instance).> > On the other hand, we know plenty about the deadly> disease that vaccines combat. Smallpox has been eradicated.> Flu epidemics used to kill millions of people every year> (people still die from the flu). Very few new cases of> polio are seen in the US. Those who refuse to vaccinate> their children are also protected by all the kids who are> vaccinated (this is called "herd effect"). In essence, they> are saying, "Vaccinate *your* kid and expose him to the> risks of the vaccine so that it will protect my kid." I'll> let you decide for yourself about the ethics and morality of> that.> > You likely won't convince these people, even with what> I've written here. My advice to you is be sympathetic to> their plight, and pray for them and minister to them.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________>

[Guest guest]

I am not sure, but I know there are many people in the area that chose not to vaccinate and thier children attend school. I am not sure if the child in Alonzo's class who got whooping cough was vaccinated or not, I just know that he was vaccinated and still we had to get antibiotic just in case to prevent symptoms. Carolyn <charper777@...> wrote:

Oh, but is that legal, what kind of religion is this? Can people lie? Well anyway now I am siding with the dr. who sent me the letter about them, Doug. I don't think it is morally right for people to go unprotected, because if they are not, sooner or later they are going to cause an epidemic aren't they?

Carolyn

Doug? Vaccines?

Hi everybody,

I told you the other day that I belonged to another group with a pharmacologist on it, who is also a medical doctor and teaches pharmacology at a medical school, about the possible link between autism and vaccines.

So here is his response. He has asked me to not include his address, as he said he did not want to get any letters from "irate mothers," so I have honored his request. He is really a good guy, but we have had some very heated debates in our other group about this, that have gotten pretty bad at times and have caused hard feelings.

Anyway in the end we must all just make up our own minds about this, and so many other things in life also I think.

Much love, and I hope this helps a bit,

Carolyn

########################################################################################

Dear Doug,

I am writing to ask you what you know about baby vaccinations. I belong to another group about childhood autism, since my son Marty has this along with his many other problems, and the ladies have been discussing whether their children's vaccinations may have caused the autism. The incidence of autism has been increasing in the past 15-20 years. We don't know why. At least part of it is that the diagnosis of autism has simply increased. Many kids are now (correctly) diagnosed with autism that would have been previously labeled with various other behavioral disorders and marginalized. So as our sensitivity to autism has increased, so has the diagnosis. We've seen similar increases in diabetes and high cholesterol for the same reason, we're simply better at finding these diseases. But that doesn't explain everything.People want to latch onto something to

blame. So among the things they have latched onto are vaccines. Despite the fact that tremendous morbidity (disease) and mortality (death) has been prevented by vaccines, some people see them as the embodiment of evil. There is no dissuading them no matter how much scientific evidence you present to them.In order to prove cause and effect you have to use the "scientific method." In other words, you have to take a bunch of children and divide them into two groups, Group A and Group B. Group A gets the vaccine, Group B doesn't. This is called a clinical trial. If Group A has a whole lot more autism than Group B, then we can say the vaccine caused the autism. Of course, such a study could never be done. Vaccines are such an accepted benefit that it would be considered unethical to leave one group of children unvaccinated. What we have to rely on then are epidemiologic studies.An epidemiologic (or observational)

study is one where you look at a group of people and see with what frequency something occurs. Epidemiologic studies are useful in that they can tell us if there is a relationship between two things - a link - such as vaccines and autism. But epidemiologic studies *cannot* tell us cause and effect. You hear the term "junk science" bantered around - junk science is when you make cause and effect statements based on epidemiologic studies. This is hard for some people to accept - they want to jump from the link to saying it is the cause. But that simply isn't good science.Testimonials, also called "case reports," are the lowest level of medical scientific evidence. While clinical trials allow us to make cause and effect statements, and epidemiologic studies allow us to make links, case reports only allow us to say "these things happened." They do *not* allow us to make cause/effect or link statements. They are useful because they

can serve as the basis for clinical trials or epidemiologic studies. Those who believe there is a link between autism and vaccines rely heavily on testimonials. "My child has autism and received vaccines, therefore the vaccines caused the autism." But their child also breathes air and drinks water. It would be every bit as valid to conclude that water and/or air caused the autism.

Seems like we were on this subject here in AG once before, and if I remember correctly you said that the mercury had been taken out of the vaccinations. Yet these mothers are complaining that the mercury is still in them and has harmed their children.No credible scientific study, clinical trial or epidemiologic study, yet has found a link between autism and thiomersal, a mercury containing preservative found in vaccines. There has even been yet another study published in Lancet (one of the most well-respected and widely read medical journals, on a par with New England Journal) this month that once again refuted any link between thiomersal and autism. Here is a fact, US vaccine manufacturers have been *decreasing* the use of thiomersal over the past 10 years, and there are only a few vaccines left containing thiomersal. Meanwhile, the incidence of

autism has *increased* over the past 10 years. So, if there were a strong link between the two, the incidence of autism would have decreased as manufacturers took thiomersal out of their vaccines. Also, in the few third world countries where thiomersal containing vaccines are still widely used, autism is rare.

I told them I would write to you and see what you had to say on this subject. Aren't children's vaccinations quite safe these days? Safe is always a relative term when medications, including vaccines are concerned. All medications, including vaccines, have side effects. Most of them are mild and common, some are potentially serious but rare. Where I think the anti-vaccine crowd has a good point is that physicians, nurses, and pharmacists who administer vaccines do not know enough about the potential adverse effects and do not do a good enough job of educating patients about them. We should *only* use medications were the benefits clearly outweigh the risks. There are a couple of vaccines where I think the benefits are questionable (hepatitis A vaccine, for instance).On the other hand, we know plenty about the deadly disease that vaccines

combat. Smallpox has been eradicated. Flu epidemics used to kill millions of people every year (people still die from the flu). Very few new cases of polio are seen in the US. Those who refuse to vaccinate their children are also protected by all the kids who are vaccinated (this is called "herd effect"). In essence, they are saying, "Vaccinate *your* kid and expose him to the risks of the vaccine so that it will protect my kid." I'll let you decide for yourself about the ethics and morality of that.You likely won't convince these people, even with what I've written here. My advice to you is be sympathetic to their plight, and pray for them and minister to them.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Carolyn, The laws do vary between states, but I can tell you that

here in NC the preschools where I live do require an immunization

report to be on file before a child can attend. However, once

again, if a parent and/or doctor submits a letter of medical or

religious exemption, then a child legally can attend that school or

preschool without having the vaccines. You might want to check with

your child or grand child's preschool. I am not sure if they can

legally disclose WHO isn't vaccinated, etc., but they might be able

to tell you if there are children in the daycare or preschool with

exemptions. I undertand your concerns.

> > Hi Sharyn,

> >

> > Well here in the U.S. if you want your children to

> > attend school, yes they have to be vaccinated. We had to

> get

> > my little grandson one more that he had missed last year

> or

> > we could not enroll him. They are very strict on this. I

> > don't know how parents are getting their kids in school

> > without them, as evidentially some don't let their kids

> have

> > them. I have no idea.

> >

> > I don't have a website for any other group accept

> for

> > my own support group I just started for parents of

> disabled

> > children, focusing on the home as being the center base

> for

> > all care, ideas, intuition, etc.

> >

> > It is at

> > HomeroomForJesus

> >

> > If anybody would like to join, I would be happy to

> > have you. As you can see I approach the subject from a

> > Christian perspective myself, but all who want to join

> can.

> > I am planning on sharing my book there, just start with

> the

> > first chapter and begin to send it out on line for people

> to

> > read. It is about me taking care of my severely brain

> > damaged son, Marty, all of his life, and reveals the

> things

> > I found to help me and is called;

> > " Why Didn't Anybody Ever Tell Me About This! "

> >

> > I hope lots of you join and we can get going on it.

> >

> > My best wishes to you all,

> > Carolyn in Oregon

> >

> > Doug? Vaccines?

> >

> >

> > Hi everybody,

> >

> > I told you the other day that I belonged to

> another

> > group with a pharmacologist on it, who is also a medical

> > doctor and teaches pharmacology at a medical school, about

> > the possible link between autism and vaccines.

> >

> > So here is his response. He has asked me to not

> > include his address, as he said he did not want to get any

> > letters from " irate mothers, " so I have honored his

> request.

> > He is really a good guy, but we have had some very heated

> > debates in our other group about this, that have gotten

> > pretty bad at times and have caused hard feelings.

> >

> > Anyway in the end we must all just make up our own

> > minds about this, and so many other things in life also I

> > think.

> >

> > Much love, and I hope this helps a bit,

> > Carolyn

> >

> >

> >

> ############################################################

> > ############################

> > Dear Doug,

> >

> > I am writing to ask you what you know about baby

> > vaccinations. I belong to another group about childhood

> > autism, since my son Marty has this along with his many

> > other problems, and the ladies have been discussing

> whether

> > their children's vaccinations may have caused the autism.

> >

> > The incidence of autism has been increasing in the

> past

> > 15-20 years. We don't know why. At least part of it is

> > that the diagnosis of autism has simply increased. Many

> > kids are now (correctly) diagnosed with autism that would

> > have been previously labeled with various other behavioral

> > disorders and marginalized. So as our sensitivity to

> autism

> > has increased, so has the diagnosis. We've seen similar

> > increases in diabetes and high cholesterol for the same

> > reason, we're simply better at finding these diseases.

> But

> > that doesn't explain everything.

> >

> > People want to latch onto something to blame. So

> among

> > the things they have latched onto are vaccines. Despite

> the

> > fact that tremendous morbidity (disease) and mortality

> > (death) has been prevented by vaccines, some people see

> them

> > as the embodiment of evil. There is no dissuading them no

> > matter how much scientific evidence you present to them.

> >

> > In order to prove cause and effect you have to use the

> > " scientific method. " In other words, you have to take a

> > bunch of children and divide them into two groups, Group A

> > and Group B. Group A gets the vaccine, Group B doesn't.

> > This is called a clinical trial. If Group A has a whole

> lot

> > more autism than Group B, then we can say the vaccine

> caused

> > the autism. Of course, such a study could never be done.

> > Vaccines are such an accepted benefit that it would be

> > considered unethical to leave one group of children

> > unvaccinated. What we have to rely on then are

> > epidemiologic studies.

> >

> > An epidemiologic (or observational) study is one where

> > you look at a group of people and see with what frequency

> > something occurs. Epidemiologic studies are useful in

> that

> > they can tell us if there is a relationship between two

> > things - a link - such as vaccines and autism. But

> > epidemiologic studies *cannot* tell us cause and effect.

> > You hear the term " junk science " bantered around - junk

> > science is when you make cause and effect statements based

> > on epidemiologic studies. This is hard for some people to

> > accept - they want to jump from the link to saying it is

> the

> > cause. But that simply isn't good science.

> >

> > Testimonials, also called " case reports, " are the

> lowest

> > level of medical scientific evidence. While clinical

> trials

> > allow us to make cause and effect statements, and

> > epidemiologic studies allow us to make links, case reports

> > only allow us to say " these things happened. " They do

> *not*

> > allow us to make cause/effect or link statements. They

> are

> > useful because they can serve as the basis for clinical

> > trials or epidemiologic studies. Those who believe there

> is

> > a link between autism and vaccines rely heavily on

> > testimonials. " My child has autism and received vaccines,

> > therefore the vaccines caused the autism. " But their

> child

> > also breathes air and drinks water. It would be every bit

> > as valid to conclude that water and/or air caused the

> > autism.

> >

> >

> > Seems like we were on this subject here in AG

> > once before, and if I remember correctly you said that the

> > mercury had been taken out of the vaccinations. Yet these

> > mothers are complaining that the mercury is still in them

> > and has harmed their children.

> >

> > No credible scientific study, clinical trial or

> > epidemiologic study, yet has found a link between autism

> and

> > thiomersal, a mercury containing preservative found in

> > vaccines. There has even been yet another study published

> > in Lancet (one of the most well-respected and widely read

> > medical journals, on a par with New England Journal) this

> > month that once again refuted any link between thiomersal

> > and autism. Here is a fact, US vaccine manufacturers have

> > been *decreasing* the use of thiomersal over the past 10

> > years, and there are only a few vaccines left containing

> > thiomersal. Meanwhile, the incidence of autism has

> > *increased* over the past 10 years. So, if there were a

> > strong link between the two, the incidence of autism would

> > have decreased as manufacturers took thiomersal out of

> their

> > vaccines. Also, in the few third world countries where

> > thiomersal containing vaccines are still widely used,

> autism

> > is rare.

> >

> >

> > I told them I would write to you and see what

> you

> > had to say on this subject. Aren't children's vaccinations

> > quite safe these days?

> >

> > Safe is always a relative term when medications,

> > including vaccines are concerned. All medications,

> > including vaccines, have side effects. Most of them are

> > mild and common, some are potentially serious but rare.

> > Where I think the anti-vaccine crowd has a good point is

> > that physicians, nurses, and pharmacists who administer

> > vaccines do not know enough about the potential adverse

> > effects and do not do a good enough job of educating

> > patients about them. We should *only* use medications

> were

> > the benefits clearly outweigh the risks. There are a

> couple

> > of vaccines where I think the benefits are questionable

> > (hepatitis A vaccine, for instance).

> >

> > On the other hand, we know plenty about the deadly

> > disease that vaccines combat. Smallpox has been

> eradicated.

> > Flu epidemics used to kill millions of people every year

> > (people still die from the flu). Very few new cases of

> > polio are seen in the US. Those who refuse to vaccinate

> > their children are also protected by all the kids who are

> > vaccinated (this is called " herd effect " ). In essence,

> they

> > are saying, " Vaccinate *your* kid and expose him to the

> > risks of the vaccine so that it will protect my kid. "

> I'll

> > let you decide for yourself about the ethics and morality

> of

> > that.

> >

> > You likely won't convince these people, even with what

> > I've written here. My advice to you is be sympathetic to

> > their plight, and pray for them and minister to them.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

I wrote a note to my childrens nurseat their school for a religious exemption and they accepted that. Sharon(list owner)