Hyperextensions once again:

[Guest guest]

Here is a different perspective on the " back raise " :

http://www.youtube.com/user/CaliforniaStrength#p/u/11/NZJp4Eo1sos

Chinese lifter performing the back raise in the back ground:

http://www.youtube.com/user/zaurbor#p/u/8/7mjgHtVy_yA

Regarding the training of Vasily eyev below are relevant extracts from Bud

Charniga:

A two part article published in the Soviet Union in the mid 1970s by Vasily

eyev ( " My Training Experiences, " Tiiazhelaya Atletika Yezhegodnik,

1976-1977) detailed his training for the year 1974. eyev competed in eight

(8) competitions. He competed in March, April, May, September, October,

November, and twice in December. He set at least one world record in each

competition, including the clean and jerk at both competitions in December. At

least one half of the competitions involved foreign travel. Albeit, this was now

the two lift era, but here was a man who was 34 years old and at the time

weighed about 150 kg.

Graph of eyev's training in 1974. Over a period of ten months (March –

December) he set eleven world records in eight different competitions. For

instance, in March of 1974 he set the world record in the clean and jerk with

240.5 kg; in May he set snatch 187.5 kg and total 422.5 kg records.

Some of the contents of these two articles have been translated and published by

the International Weightlifting Federation. eyev did a lot of hyperextension

exercises, usually twice a day. He also popularized combination movements such

as a power snatch plus press behind the neck followed by an over head squat. The

specific contents of these workouts received most of the publicity. However, the

fact that he competed in eight competitions setting world records in each has

apparently been overlooked. He " practiced competitions " 2 to 4 times as often as

advocated by Strength and Health magazine.

So, regardless as to what he did or did not do in training, whether hopped up

and down on one leg or skipped rope every day, he got better at competitions by

entering competitions with relative frequency, even at his age and the late

stage of his career.

=====================

Carruthers

Wakefield, UK

>

>

>

> Hyperextensions once again:

>

> In a message dated 7/28/2010 2:56:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

> dryessis@... <mailto:dryessis%40dryessis.com> writes:

>

> / " In order to have a valid discussion of hyperextensions, or the reverse

> hyperor even the glute ham raise I strongly recommend that everyone

> define their

> terms so we know exactly what the exercise is and how it is executed. " /

>

> I certainly agree that defining these terms is a good idea.

> " Hyperextension " is not the right way of describing this exercise. And

> just so we all know what I am talking about use this url

> (http://www.backextender.com/products-and-services/). The best " gym "

> term I feel is " back raises. " However, we have coined the term the " back

> extender " (BE) exercise as done on the Back. The play on words is

> that a " back extension " is performed and by doing this exercise one will

> " extend " the life of his or her back.

>

> Doing my competition days in O/Ling the BE exercise was always done at

> the end of training by most of those I trained with. And usually

> performed with weights for improved strength of both the back and hip

> extensors. This exercise was touted as a key exercise among O/Lters and

> one Tommy Kono insisted be included within the range of accessory

> exercises. BE also was used as an excellent active stretch for back and

> hip extensors. To isolate hip extensors the exercise is performed by

> isometrically locking the back into extension. Not only did this

> strengthen gluts and hamstrings but aided in training the " locked-in "

> posture of the lumbar lordosis which is essential for the O/Lter. That

> is, if the O/Lter allows any " springiness " with the loss of the lock

> during the pull some of the power generated from the hips and thighs is

> lost. Here is a good example

> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3X1eFt-Dgg & feature=related

> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3X1eFt-Dgg & feature=related>).

>

>

> By performing BE this way I feel it is safe but very productive

> method for most athletes requiring good strength and power from

> the hip extensors. This works particularly well with P/L and O/L.

> Vasily iev, the rather famous superheavy Russian O/Lter, was

> at the Commonwealth

>

<http://weightliftingexchange.com/index.php?option=com_content & task=view & id=138 & \

Itemid=105>Games

> in Christchurch, NZ in 1974. One of the lifters I trained with had

> super 8 video footage of iev performing this exercise over a

> vaulting horse with his heels anchored by parallel bars jammed up

> against a wall. From what we could calculate he had 250 kg on the

> bar across his shoulders. That appeared to work for him and

> certainly convinced me. Also, I was asked by two P/Lters in the

> Far North of NZ to help them get beyond sticking points in both

> squat and D/L. The only exercise I added to their program was this

> lift and both worked up to holding two 20 kg plates against their

> chests while performing the exercise. Over a couple of months both

> had improved both lifts by upwards of 10%. Based upon what I have

> seen and my own experience over the years this IS a very suitable

> glut/hamstring exercise sparing those large compressive loads on

> the lumbar spine performed in weight bearing.

>

> Compliance with the patient population with which I primarily deal is a

> big issue. That is not a problem with athletes. Patient compliance is

> why I use the KISS principle -- Keep It Simple BUT Specific -

> particularly with exercise. The average back patient is interested in

> taking care of his or her back with the least amount of time or effort.

> If I were to suggest 6 hours of gym work per week compliance would be

> near zero. Thus, these folks need to have something producing the

> biggest bang for their time. The Back does this.

>

> I do use the reverse hyperextension exercise (we call it the " dolphin "

> exercise) as a pre-cursor exercise to BE. It is good exercise but I feel

> not nearly as affective as BE. Here are a few examples of the reverse

> hyperextensions or the glut/hamstring exercise.

>

> YouTube - Exercise Ball Reverse Hyper Extension

> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwLGUUMBWFg & NR=1>

>

>

>

> This is also a good alternative glut/hamstring exercise and does not

> produce large compressive loads on the lumbar spine. However, it is

> limited by the amount of resistance a person could use unless one has

> the right equipment as in the second example. What are the links?

>

>

> I just did a blog entry on " why " I invented and developed the

> Back. A good read if you are interested. I do make a big deal

> of strengthening the back through what I refer to as the " full

> functional range of motion. " Prof McGill appears to favor a static

> isometric contraction with the trunk at parallel with legs

> anchored for both strengthening and testing purposes. The test is

> referred to as the Sorensen Test for lumbar spine endurance. (See

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16461206 for the original

> abstract.) My feeling is that the full range of lumbar motion

> needs to be targeted for both strength and endurance. Why? Because

> it is not always possible to isolate the way we use our backs

> during our normal activities over a course of the day. I deal with

> a large portion of the work force -- plumbers, electricians, dairy

> farmers, etc. These folks are often having to work in very awkward

> positions and postures. Even with athletes, particularly in

> contact sports, lumbar lordosis and hip-hinge pivoting are often

> compromised. That is just life. Thus, common sense tells me,

> strength and endurance of the lumbar spine through normal range of

> motion is necessary.

>

>

> So, just like many other common sense situations, particularly in

> what I am doing, we have to wait for the science to catch up.

> Until then, I will continue to do what I do as it certainly seems

> to have worked very well for me personally for thousands of

> patients over the past 30 years. Thank God the science is catching

> up with folks like Profs Stu McGill, Marshall and Yessis.

>

>

> In the meantime I have had to depend upon forums like this for

> feedback. So please, readership, take your best shot. I have a

> thick skin and am not too old to learn.

>

> --

> Dr. J.

> Back Extender Company, Ltd

> 20 Kensington Ave

> Whangarei, New Zealand

>

> www.backextender.com

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for that. The first example does isolate the spinal

extensors while the second isolates the hip extensors and is the way

eyev was performing the exercise in the 74 video I previously

referred to.

/Here is a different perspective on the " back raise " :/

http://www.youtube.com/user/CaliforniaStrength#p/u/11/NZJp4Eo1sos

/Chinese lifter performing the back raise in the back ground:/

http://www.youtube.com/user/zaurbor#p/u/8/7mjgHtVy_yA

Cheers -

Dr. J.

Back Extender Company, Ltd

20 Kensington Ave

Whangarei, New Zealand

www.backextender.com

[Guest guest]

>>Dr WROTE Message #52015

Back to your query regarding some of the exercises on our web site that

are contraindicated in Prof McGill's work. I really have no " conscience "

contraindications. I have and always will use the " hyperextension " (aka

back raises or the back extender exercise) for mechanical back or disc

problems. I am not sure what Prof McGill's opinion is on this exercise.<<

I wrote a small review about resistance exercise and back pain for my bachelor

degree, and I became surprised after reading McGill telling that back raises had

herniated some subject disks in his laboratory.

… As for the best way to perform back raises (strength athlete perspective):

After reading so many interesting posts, I think the key questions are:

1-Does isolating a muscle makes it stronger than working it as a part of a

greater chain?

OR

2-Do isolation exercises just create shear forces and unnatural movement

patterns?

3-Isnt the body also capable of dealing with shear forces and adapt to it

getting stronger?

OR

4-Does it just wear the joints and soft tissues down over time ?

ISOLATION:

Ive read a few EMG studies where isolation exercises were compared to multi

joint.

High bar Olympic lifting squats were once compared to Powerlifting squats, and

the last caused a greater quadriceps EMG signal despite less isolation of this

muscle, may be due to the heavier loads employed, I don't remember details.

Sit ups and hanging leg raises were once compared to crunch variations ( I

guess its McGill stuff, I don't know where are my papers now). Crunches provided

far less spine compression and far more isolation from hip flexors, but despite

it, ab muscles activation was also far greater at hanging leg raises and sit

ups!

Multi joint squats were compared to leg extensions in EMG. Squat wins!

So it seens isolation is not a great way to get good EMG readings of target

muscles…

Does greater EMG signal always means both greater strength gains and cross

sectional gains? I think so, but I don't know, food for thought guys...

CHINESE BACK RAISES

If we agree that keeping a neutral spine is a stronger and more secure position

for doing squats, pulls and deadlifts why are we trying to isolate erectors

flexing our spines doing partial crunch like extensions? Isnt the Chinese

execution style the correct kind of back posture we are anyway looking for to

our lifts?

Mayer et al (Arch Phys Med Rehabil Vol 83, November 2002) demonstrated that

accentuating lumbar lordosis and internally rotating the hip joint during Roman

chair exercise independently enhance lumbar extensor electromyographic activity.

The question of doing or not back raises and how would be the best way to do it

still puzzles me. Im a competitive powerlifter. Dr Frederick Hatfield was the

first one to approach powerlifting under a more scientific view back in the

80's. He promoted the back raise with a stabilized pelvic girdle as MUST

exercise for the spinal erectors. Preparing the erectors with weighted isolated

extension/flexion of the spine was a pre requisite to build a big squat and

deadlift while staying injury free in his words… I followed his advice for some

years and was a great believer in isolated spine flexion/extension, until the

amount of weight on the bar got up to almost 90 kg and it got very awkward to

set up to the 40 degrees machine. I observed that I had to use a very short

range too, when I tried lighter weights for a full range spine extension/flexion

my lumbar vertebrae would feel very weird days after.

I " believe " the 40 degrees back raising machine creates unnecessary compression

and shear for strength athletes when executed with the " isolated "

flexion/extension pattern, because you are already bending your spine before

reaching parallel. One can also use this style with the horizontal machine, but

the bar will be stretching your spine down most of the time, so I " believe " is

far safer with added weights.

Denilson Costa

Rio de Janeiro - Brasil

[Guest guest]

I have found this video to be educational for beginners:

_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiS7Y7hDx_k_

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiS7Y7hDx_k)

The above is a short video of Louis and a female lifter

demonstrating the Glute/Ham/Calf raise exercise.

Edwin Freeman, Jr.

San Francisco, USA

In a message dated 9/14/2010 9:33:04 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

powerlifter_172@... writes:

>>Dr WROTE Message #52015

Back to your query regarding some of the exercises on our web site that

are contraindicated in Prof McGill's work. I really have no " conscience "

contraindications. I have and always will use the " hyperextension " (aka

back raises or the back extender exercise) for mechanical back or disc

problems. I am not sure what Prof McGill's opinion is on this exercise.<<

I wrote a small review about resistance exercise and back pain for my

bachelor degree, and I became surprised after reading McGill telling that back

raises had herniated some subject disks in his laboratory.

… As for the best way to perform back raises (strength athlete

perspective):

After reading so many interesting posts, I think the key questions are:

1-Does isolating a muscle makes it stronger than working it as a part of a

greater chain?

OR

2-Do isolation exercises just create shear forces and unnatural movement

patterns?

3-Isnt the body also capable of dealing with shear forces and adapt to it

getting stronger?

OR

4-Does it just wear the joints and soft tissues down over time ?

ISOLATION:

Ive read a few EMG studies where isolation exercises were compared to

multi joint.

High bar Olympic lifting squats were once compared to Powerlifting squats,

and the last caused a greater quadriceps EMG signal despite less isolation

of this muscle, may be due to the heavier loads employed, I don't remember

details.

Sit ups and hanging leg raises were once compared to crunch variations (

I guess its McGill stuff, I don't know where are my papers now). Crunches

provided far less spine compression and far more isolation from hip flexors,

but despite it, ab muscles activation was also far greater at hanging leg

raises and sit ups!

Multi joint squats were compared to leg extensions in EMG. Squat wins!

So it seens isolation is not a great way to get good EMG readings of

target muscles…

Does greater EMG signal always means both greater strength gains and cross

sectional gains? I think so, but I don't know, food for thought guys...

CHINESE BACK RAISES

If we agree that keeping a neutral spine is a stronger and more secure

position for doing squats, pulls and deadlifts why are we trying to isolate

erectors flexing our spines doing partial crunch like extensions? Isnt the

Chinese execution style the correct kind of back posture we are anyway

looking for to our lifts?

Mayer et al (Arch Phys Med Rehabil Vol 83, November 2002) demonstrated

that accentuating lumbar lordosis and internally rotating the hip joint during

Roman chair exercise independently enhance lumbar extensor

electromyographic activity.

The question of doing or not back raises and how would be the best way to

do it still puzzles me. Im a competitive powerlifter. Dr Frederick Hatfield

was the first one to approach powerlifting under a more scientific view

back in the 80's. He promoted the back raise with a stabilized pelvic girdle

as MUST exercise for the spinal erectors. Preparing the erectors with

weighted isolated extension/flexion of the spine was a pre requisite to build a

big squat and deadlift while staying injury free in his words… I followed

his advice for some years and was a great believer in isolated spine

flexion/extension, until the amount of weight on the bar got up to almost 90 kg

and it got very awkward to set up to the 40 degrees machine. I observed that

I had to use a very short range too, when I tried lighter weights for a

full range spine extension/flexion my lumbar vertebrae would feel very weird

days after.

I " believe " the 40 degrees back raising machine creates unnecessary

compression and shear for strength athletes when executed with the " isolated "

flexion/extension pattern, because you are already bending your spine before

reaching parallel. One can also use this style with the horizontal machine,

but the bar will be stretching your spine down most of the time, so I

" believe " is far safer with added weights.

Denilson Costa

Rio de Janeiro - Brasil

------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

>>Dr WROTE Message #52015

Back to your query regarding some of the exercises on our web site that are

contraindicated in Prof McGill's work. I really have no " conscience "

contraindications. I have and always will use the " hyperextension " (aka back

raises or the back extender exercise) for mechanical back or disc problems.

I am not sure what Prof McGill's opinion is on this exercise.<<

Denilson Costa WROTE:

I wrote a small review about resistance exercise and back pain for my

bachelor degree, and I became surprised after reading McGill telling that

back raises had herniated some subject disks in his laboratory.

.. As for the best way to perform back raises (strength athlete perspective):

After reading so many interesting posts, I think the key questions are:

1-Does isolating a muscle makes it stronger than working it as a part of a

greater chain?

Casler WRITES:

Hi Denilson,

While this is a simple question it has no simple answer. A muscle gets

stronger if it is exposed to an overload stimulus, so if overload is or can

be produced, it will adapt via hypertrophy and strength increase.

I think what your attempting to ask is; can isolation be MORE EFFECTIVE at

causing a strength increase. The answer is yes if the joint in question

that the muscle articulates is made MORE stable and secure to allow higher

tension forces (overload). This task in itself is likely an exercise in

futility and reasonable result. First it is very difficult to produce that

level of stability, and if you can and do the isolation will produce an

isolated motor pattern that must then be reprogrammed into the holistic

whole body action to really have any value.

This may be somewhat valuable in very specific rehab implementations if used

in a way the leads to full integration and reduced isolation as quickly as

possible. (if the goal is to produce an effective strength move for a sport

or activity where a long kinetic chain is used)

Denilson Costa WROTE:

2-Do isolation exercises just create shear forces and unnatural movement

patterns?

Casler WRITES:

That is totally dependant on the exercise and the efforts taken to stabilize

the joint or joints involved. Obviously if this increased stabilization

leads to a higher load, this in itself will create higher forces during the

action.

Each action and the efforts to stabilize the joint(s) would need separate

evaluation.

Denilson Costa WROTE:

3-Isnt the body also capable of dealing with shear forces and adapt to it

getting stronger?

Casler WRITES:

In general I would answer YES. However, shear forces are often times met

with forces created during natural stabilizing muscles, postures and

mechanics. By supplying these via external reactive force pads and body

restraints you then might cause a lower adaptation unless you pay very

specific attention to that process.

Denilson Costa WROTE:

4-Does it just wear the joints and soft tissues down over time ?

Casler writes:

It is a very difficult task to determine exactly how much joint damage

occurs if any. The joints and their tissues have evolved and then adapted

to deal with these forces as any other tissue.

Stressing the joints and joint tissues no doubt has the potential to make

them and the stabilizing muscle to that joint adapt to be stronger. The

question is WHEN is the stress too high or too long to then be damaging as

opposed to conditioning. I am of the opinion that joints need to be trained

in a like manner to how we train our musculature, but with recovery and

adaptive periods that reflect their specific recovery periods. It is

obvious that bone, cartilage, ligaments and other supporting joint tissues

have a SLOWER recovery/adaptation rate than muscle tissue. This needs to be

taken into account.

Denilson Costa WROTE:

ISOLATION:

Ive read a few EMG studies where isolation exercises were compared to multi

joint.

High bar Olympic lifting squats were once compared to Powerlifting squats,

and the last caused a greater quadriceps EMG signal despite less isolation

of this muscle, may be due to the heavier loads employed, I don't remember

details.

Casler WRITES:

Which one of these are they calling an isolation exercise? They both appear

to be versions of the same long Kinetic chain action.

Denilson Costa WROTE:

Sit ups and hanging leg raises were once compared to crunch variations ( I

guess its McGill stuff, I don't know where are my papers now). Crunches

provided far less spine compression and far more isolation from hip flexors,

but despite it, ab muscles activation was also far greater at hanging leg

raises and sit ups!

Casler WRITES:

The greater activation from leg raises could be from many factors including

larger loading forces and synergistic facilitation via elements of the TSM

(torso stabilization mechanism)

Denilson Costa WROTE:

Multi joint squats were compared to leg extensions in EMG. Squat wins!

Casler writes:

If you are talking about the EMG of the quadriceps, I have actually seen

claims that LE's caused a higher activation. However I would find such a

comparison of little use since there is very little correlation that can be

drawn between a squat load and a leg extension load.

Denilson Costa WROTE:

So it seens isolation is not a great way to get good EMG readings of target

muscles.

Does greater EMG signal always means both greater strength gains and cross

sectional gains? I think so, but I don't know, food for thought guys...

Casler WRITES:

Yes a good question and as far as I know, all it means is a high level motor

impulse is created. I think there are many other stimuli that need to be

present for strength and hypertrophy in addition to high motor signal.

Denilson Costa WROTE:

CHINESE BACK RAISES

If we agree that keeping a neutral spine is a stronger and more secure

position for doing squats, pulls and deadlifts why are we trying to isolate

erectors flexing our spines doing partial crunch like extensions? Isnt the

Chinese execution style the correct kind of back posture we are anyway

looking for to our lifts?

Casler WRITES:

The most " secure/safe " position for the spine during an activity or action

is the one that most effectively manages the load forces placed on it at any

given moment. This not only has to do with the posture/position, but also

the activations of all the mechanisms employed to manage those forces and

stabilize the spinal joint from injury.

Denilson Costa WROTE:

The question of doing or not back raises and how would be the best way to do

it still puzzles me. Im a competitive powerlifter. Dr Frederick Hatfield was

the first one to approach powerlifting under a more scientific view back in

the 80's. He promoted the back raise with a stabilized pelvic girdle as MUST

exercise for the spinal erectors. Preparing the erectors with weighted

isolated extension/flexion of the spine was a pre requisite to build a big

squat and deadlift while staying injury free in his words. I followed his

advice for some years and was a great believer in isolated spine

flexion/extension, until the amount of weight on the bar got up to almost 90

kg and it got very awkward to set up to the 40 degrees machine. I observed

that I had to use a very short range too, when I tried lighter weights for a

full range spine extension/flexion my lumbar vertebrae would feel very weird

days after.

Casler WRITES:

Fred was observing the increased need for strength in the spinal extensors

to " maintain " stability during his competitive actions and felt the greater

strength was important to that stability under high stress. He was trying

to strengthen what he considered a weak link and wanted the safety of having

that area received additional conditioning stimulus.

Denilson Costa WROTE:

I " believe " the 40 degrees back raising machine creates unnecessary

compression and shear for strength athletes when executed with the

" isolated " flexion/extension pattern, because you are already bending your

spine before reaching parallel. One can also use this style with the

horizontal machine, but the bar will be stretching your spine down most of

the time, so I " believe " is far safer with added weights.

Casler WRITES:

I think most all exercises can be used in a way that can either cause a

positive or negative adaptation. It is valuable to understand the momentary

loads and forces to the tissues at any given time and have training and

conditioning goals to accommodate those needs.

Regards,

Casler

TRI-VECTOR 3-D Training Systems

Century City, CA

-II-----II-

[Guest guest]

Joint health

Proper technique while lifting , " pre-Loading " inliu of " Jerking " the load. Warm

Up body core/heart rate to above 100. Light load rep before same exercise.

Proper Posture.

5x5 program works good " Joint friendly " instead of a Boris Sheiko routine.

Supplements like creatine and " roids " are muscle friendly but joints take longer

to recover.

Older individuals need more recovery time like 7 to 8 days for the same muscle

group.

Sleep deprivation hinders recovery and the endocrine system.

Super vitamin C supplementation is essential for joint health as MSM " sulphur "

, glucosamine, chicken broth gelatine, Wild Salmon/Macrell, vegetable juicing

as a multi vitamin.

If dieting ( cutting) slow does it , you still need good nutrition for joint

health while lifting to be, without injuries.

Vitally Alcher

Toronto Canada

Re: Hyperextensions once again:

Casler WROTE-

'I am of the opinion that joints need to be trained in a like manner to how

we train our musculature, but with recovery and adaptive periods that

reflect their specific recovery periods.'

Sheaff writes-

, could you please expand upon this statement in regards to the training

of the joints, not so much in terms of exercises, but in terms of loading

parameters.

Thanks,

Sheaff

Pennsylvania, USA

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

As an older drug free lifter who mainly concentrates on the powerliftrs

(squat, bench press, deadlift), I find that when I train hard I can only take

two days per week of intense training. I'm training bench press 2x a week,

squats 2x a week, and deadlifts 2x a week. One day is a light or

assistance exercise day (assistance exercises being things like belt squat,

dips,

floor press, dumbbell deadlifts, romanian deadlifts, and lots more) and the

other day is a heavy day strictly working on the lifts themselves.

Edwin Freeman, Jr.

San Francisco, USA

In a message dated 9/19/2010 10:40:11 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

alcher@... writes:

Joint health

Proper technique while lifting , " pre-Loading " inliu of " Jerking " the

load. Warm Up body core/heart rate to above 100. Light load rep before same

exercise.

Proper Posture.

5x5 program works good " Joint friendly " instead of a Boris Sheiko routine.

Supplements like creatine and " roids " are muscle friendly but joints take

longer to recover.

Older individuals need more recovery time like 7 to 8 days for the same

muscle group.

Sleep deprivation hinders recovery and the endocrine system.

Super vitamin C supplementation is essential for joint health as MSM "

sulphur " , glucosamine, chicken broth gelatine, Wild Salmon/Macrell,

vegetable juicing as a multi vitamin.

If dieting ( cutting) slow does it , you still need good nutrition for

joint health while lifting to be, without injuries.

=================================