Re: High intensity vs. long endurance work

[Guest guest]

Hi !

In a message dated 7/2/2010 1:42:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

ckn1074@... writes:

A fellow exercise professional asked me my opinion of the Crossfit

Endurance methods. I wasn't too familiar w/the protocol but I C'fit Endurance

advocates more high intensity interval work and no LSD work. In fact, they

suggest that no matter your event, you shouldn't need to work longer than 90

minutes. All of this runs counter to much of what I'm familiar with. Crossfit

Endurance cites some studes that indeed suggest similar adaptations both in

athletes using intense interval type work and long endurance type work.

I would go to the Charlie Francis site and consider his e-book: Key

Concepts: Elite Series.

In that book, Charlie commented on Russian skaters seeming to be better

conditioned in the third period and faster overall. The Canadians assumed it

was better special endurance and aerobic fitness, but that wasn't the

case. The Russians were beating the Canadians at the time because they could

" skate faster, and had been training speed and power rather than aerobic

fitness and special endurance. "

Charlie's conclusion: " The message should be clear: the hockey player,

since he rarely skates even

thirty or forty metres at high intensity, should only focus on the high

intensity components of strength, power, power speed, and speed, in training. "

Ken Jakalski

Lisle High School

Lisle, IL USA

[Guest guest]

It partly depends on what you consider an

endurance athlete.  A large number

of 1500 to 5k runners from the 40’s through the 60’s were primarily interval

trained.

Can you train on intervals all year?  Sure. You just aren’t going to run them

hard in the off season.  Bannister

started with something like 66 second quarters and cut them down before the

racing season to 54 seconds.  Basketball players, soccer players, etc. are

interval trained

all year long, just by playing off season games.  You can easily burn out on

hard intervals, but you can burn

out on big mileage too.

Since Lydiard, many track athletes and

coaches have argued that a large base period was critical to peak interval

training in the period before racing. 

Although this is currently a common training protocol, I am not aware of

any studies that support it.   If a large base actually contributed to faster

speed at

a shorter distance, then I think we would see marathoners dropping down and

successfully competing at shorter distances.  What we see, of course, is the

opposite.

Jon HaddanIrvine, CA

======================

From: <ckn1074@...>

Subject: High intensity vs. long endurance work

Supertraining

Date: Friday, July 2, 2010, 9:55 AM

Greetings,

A fellow exercise professional asked me my opinion of the Crossfit Endurance

methods. I wasn't too familiar w/the protocol but I C'fit Endurance advocates

more high intensity interval work and no LSD work. In fact, they suggest that

no matter your event, you shouldn't need to work longer than 90 minutes. All of

this runs counter to much of what I'm familiar with. Crossfit Endurance cites

some studes that indeed suggest similar adaptations both in athletes using

intense interval type work and long endurance type work. Here are the studeies:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17991697

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16825308

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15705728

All of these studies were done over several weeks. I couldn't find anything

looking at interval type work being used as a primary training means for a long

duration.

My observation is this: The type of work discussed in Crossfit Endurance and in

these studies resembles traditional peaking or sharpening work. That is, high

intensity work used for no more than about six weeks as the race approaches.

Another observation is this: From my reading, particularly of Nokes Lore of

Running, is that athletes can't maintain a peak for long. Peaking continued

past about 6-8 weeks sees the athlete's abilities diminish.

So my quesiton(s) is/are this: Is anyone aware of research suggesting that

interval work used as a primary training means for endurance athletes is a good

thing? Further, is anyone aware of successful endurance athletes avoiding LSD

work and using interval work as a primary training means? Any input will be

greatly appreciated.

=============================

[Guest guest]

Lyle Mc had a series of blog posts on the subject - most of them dealt w.

fat-loss, but I think there were some implications for athletes as well.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/stead-state-versus-intervals-finally-a\

-conclusion.html

My opinion is that it's commonsense to assume that HITT and steady state aerobic

work will NOT have the same cardiovascular and muscular adaptations and any

reasonable person would conclude that some of both would be better than rigid

adherence to one to the exclusion of all others.

If you are someone who's sedentary/detrained/untrained, then ANY kind of

training is going to be better than nothing, and if your VO2Max is poor, ANY

kind of exercise that gets you breathing hard is going to improve it. Again,

JMO.

Boris Bachmann

Des Moines, IA

http://squatrx.blogspot.com

________________________________

From: <ckn1074@...>

Supertraining

Sent: Fri, July 2, 2010 11:55:34 AM

Subject: High intensity vs. long endurance work

Greetings,

A fellow exercise professional asked me my opinion of the Crossfit Endurance

methods. I wasn't too familiar w/the protocol but I C'fit Endurance advocates

more high intensity interval work and no LSD work. In fact, they suggest that

no matter your event, you shouldn't need to work longer than 90 minutes. All of

this runs counter to much of what I'm familiar with. Crossfit Endurance cites

some studes that indeed suggest similar adaptations both in athletes using

intense interval type work and long endurance type work. Here are the studeies:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17991697

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16825308

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15705728

All of these studies were done over several weeks. I couldn't find anything

looking at interval type work being used as a primary training means for a long

duration.

My observation is this: The type of work discussed in Crossfit Endurance and in

these studies resembles traditional peaking or sharpening work. That is, high

intensity work used for no more than about six weeks as the race approaches.

Another observation is this: From my reading, particularly of Nokes Lore of

Running, is that athletes can't maintain a peak for long. Peaking continued

past about 6-8 weeks sees the athlete's abilities diminish.

So my quesiton(s) is/are this: Is anyone aware of research suggesting that

interval work used as a primary training means for endurance athletes is a good

thing? Further, is anyone aware of successful endurance athletes avoiding LSD

work and using interval work as a primary training means? Any input will be

greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Norman

www.DenverFitnessJournal.com

[Guest guest]

Ken,

I have adopted this philosophy with my High School sprinters. I did this with

their weight trainging too.

We ran faster, and got hurt less. I am a long long time coach and I think waited

a bit to long to really run fast although we had much success probably in spite

of myself.

Our sprinters got stronger with less wear and tear in the weightroom and I

mean  

measurably stonger. We had our best athletes competing not sitting out meets

with injury or not perfoming well because I overworked them. In NJ we have dual

meets and then of course relays and championship meets on weekends so

often  not  enough time to properly train rest etc. This philosophy has been

great for us.

 

I whole heartley agree work for speed not over endurance. 

Ed Heffernan

Toms River HS South

Toms River NJ

________________________________

From: " CoachJ1@... " <CoachJ1@...>

Supertraining

Sent: Fri, July 2, 2010 3:55:42 PM

Subject: Re: High intensity vs. long endurance work

 

Hi !

In a message dated 7/2/2010 1:42:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

ckn1074@... writes:

A fellow exercise professional asked me my opinion of the Crossfit

Endurance methods. I wasn't too familiar w/the protocol but I C'fit Endurance

advocates more high intensity interval work and no LSD work. In fact, they

suggest that no matter your event, you shouldn't need to work longer than 90

minutes. All of this runs counter to much of what I'm familiar with. Crossfit

Endurance cites some studes that indeed suggest similar adaptations both in

athletes using intense interval type work and long endurance type work.

I would go to the Charlie Francis site and consider his e-book: Key

Concepts: Elite Series.

In that book, Charlie commented on Russian skaters seeming to be better

conditioned in the third period and faster overall. The Canadians assumed it

was better special endurance and aerobic fitness, but that wasn't the

case. The Russians were beating the Canadians at the time because they could

" skate faster, and had been training speed and power rather than aerobic

fitness and special endurance. "

Charlie's conclusion: " The message should be clear: the hockey player,

since he rarely skates even

thirty or forty metres at high intensity, should only focus on the high

intensity components of strength, power, power speed, and speed, in training. "

Ken Jakalski

Lisle High School

Lisle, IL USA

[Guest guest]

Lyle actually has a better piece relative to the topic at hand found here:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/methods-of-endurance-training-part-1.h\

tml

Steve Troutman

city? Country?

[Guest guest]

Although I generally like a shorter training period for young folks in weight

rooms and a more frequent workouts generally - I'd have to say I had other

thoughts on the rest of the postings.

Ah, Russian hockey players - well, if we take the philosophy demonstrated by the

USA team from 1980 and their coaches, it's work hard, skate til you drop and

then skate more - as a team, and not as people who just get together

occasionally to compete..... I always thought two reasons the Russians were

faster and stronger was the fact their teams were together long term, they were

professionals whose job was to skate and train - not amateurs with other

pursuits....like your average college age hockey player in canada or usa?

Players who then jumped to NHL were long term pros from the army and other

places, right? performance decreased in some cases markedly in the face of other

pursuits lol...

If we paid our athletes to be fit, no doubt they would find ways to put down

cell phones and stop running around all night long instead of recovering?? (or

maybe not, evidence from pro sports teams being as it is, not even mulimillion

dollar contracts keep them out of trouble....sigh.) Oh wait, we ARE paying them

to train now - scholarships, endorsements....sponsorships...

Part of the success of Eastern Bloc nations and the success of China was/is

control of the athlete on off hours. Let's face it, our athletes generally are

not as motivated because they have lives outside of their sport.

If they don't have lives where they're running around clubbing, then they're

desperately working to make money on the other time besides that used in sport.

Or struggling to get enough study time to win at academics.

As for cross fit and their methods - well, it's not bad to condition a lot of

folks - but there's other things at work. Cross fit - according to a web site I

reviewed recently, admits they don't put on strength and muscle as well as the

pure strength sports - and also admits for best results with cross fit, you need

to use PEDs....sigh. Their practitioners when observed outside of their own

facilities can show some amazingly poor technique in core lifts as squat,

deadlift and OL variations - and the focus is in " HOW FAST " - not how well they

complete the exercises. Some of the cross fitters in a gym I lift in have taken

to sprinting in between sets - across the foot of the bench presses - back and

forth. Another tactic is to spread dumbbells around the open space in the floor

and act as though they are the only persons training " seriously " - and then

leaving the db's lying there after they are through. They are not good

ambassadors for their method as this is a highly dangerous and aggravating thing

to do in the weight training area. I also haven't seen any good overall stats on

how many trainees are quietly dropping out in their programs too - I suspect

from some of the injuries I'm seeing as an MT, there's more than a few

breakdowns... last week I saw a repeat customer with a " burpee " accident

lol....I think he's born to lift heavy, but convinced himself to use the speed

workout - with too much weight. Sigh.

All that aside, I laughed at the workouts named for girls in their

repertoire..... " " is the " three bars of death " - including deadlift. <nod>

now there's something appropriate in that name <grin>.

If you want a basic level of fitness, sure, it and other things like " P90X " will

do that for you, if you follow the diets they come with and other restrictions

to your lifestyle they recommend (and by the way, MOST of the folks I've spoken

to who have adopted either program blow off the diet restrictions, what a

surprise...). But since most average folks lack structure and clue enough to

come up with their own workouts without such guidance and eating corrections,

they serve their purpose just like popular old favorites like " body for life " or

hiring a trainer. Finding a coach in cross fit with enough skill to correct form

would be advisable before taking off into the land of the WOD lol... as well as

remembering that outside their own facilities, courtesy and safety are necessary

considerations. Doing a move quickly with poor form is possibly worse than doing

it slowly with the same lousy execution over time...

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

Re: High intensity vs. long endurance work

Hi !

In a message dated 7/2/2010 1:42:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

ckn1074@... writes:

A fellow exercise professional asked me my opinion of the Crossfit

Endurance methods. I wasn't too familiar w/the protocol but I C'fit Endurance

advocates more high intensity interval work and no LSD work. In fact, they

suggest that no matter your event, you shouldn't need to work longer than 90

minutes. All of this runs counter to much of what I'm familiar with. Crossfit

Endurance cites some studes that indeed suggest similar adaptations both in

athletes using intense interval type work and long endurance type work.

I would go to the Charlie Francis site and consider his e-book: Key

Concepts: Elite Series.

In that book, Charlie commented on Russian skaters seeming to be better

conditioned in the third period and faster overall. The Canadians assumed it

was better special endurance and aerobic fitness, but that wasn't the

case. The Russians were beating the Canadians at the time because they could

" skate faster, and had been training speed and power rather than aerobic

fitness and special endurance. "

Charlie's conclusion: " The message should be clear: the hockey player,

since he rarely skates even

thirty or forty metres at high intensity, should only focus on the high

intensity components of strength, power, power speed, and speed, in training. "

Ken Jakalski

Lisle High School

Lisle, IL USA

[Guest guest]

Hi !

In a message dated 7/3/2010 1:05:16 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

deadliftdiva@... writes:

I always thought two reasons the Russians were faster and stronger was the

fact their teams were together long term, they were professionals whose

job was to skate and train - not amateurs with other pursuits....like your

average college age hockey player in canada or usa?

Charlie's point was that the Russians were the fastest because their

maximum velocity was greater than anyone else’s.

Charlie's insights reflect your thoughts about the American philosophy in

the 80's: " work hard, skate til you drop and then skate more... "

Charlie saw the Canadians taking the same approach and, as a result,

coaches " set the players on the stationary bikes until they were blue in

face,and skated them hard in practice to improve special endurance, but nothing

seemed to change, until free flow of information recommenced between Eastern

Europe and North America. "

Something else was at work here, since, as Charlie noted, " the Russians and

the Czechs were scoring almost ten points lower on their VO2 Max. tests

(measuring endurance), than Canadians. "

Ken Jakalski

Lisle Senior High School

Lisle, IL USA