Re: Guilt, satiety, calorie restriction...

[Guest guest]

You must have a very thrifty metabolism then. I have a friend who eats

nothing but white pasta and pizza all day long (and entire pizzas at

that) and maintains a six-pack year round.

-

> > of

> course the range of calorie intakes, CR or

> > otherwise, depends on

> > voluntary activity, muscle mass, and size. there's

> > a huge range of

> > CR intakes, and there are plenty of people well

> > beyond 2000 calories,

> > people who exercise a lot and such. at 5'9 " , 132

> > lbs, i take in

> > about 1700/day.

> >

>

> WoW!! , that sounds like soooo little to me!

> I am 5ft2, female, and 120lbs. I don't work out. I

> consume around 2000 cals per day. I carry a little

> extra fat around my middle which is largely due to

> bloating caused by endometriosis/ovarian cyst. I

> would starve on 1700 cals per day

>

> Jo

>

> ________________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

--- Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@...>

wrote: >

They found that even in

> salmon, the females would often choose the

> " nice " not so aggressive males (who incidentally

> don't bite and play so rough, but who stay on

> the sidelines and can't compete with the aggressive

> ones).

I recall reading something about this in New

Scientist. IIRC, the older salmon females chose hte

less agressive males, and the younger females chose

the more agressive. Could have something to do with

learning that the agressive ones hurt them, so the

second time around, they went for the more passive

ones!

Jo

________________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

>I recall reading something about this in New

>Scientist. IIRC, the older salmon females chose hte

>less agressive males, and the younger females chose

>the more agressive. Could have something to do with

>learning that the agressive ones hurt them, so the

>second time around, they went for the more passive

>ones!

>

>Jo

Kinda like a second marriage ;--) Glad there other

NS readers here ... I love that mag ...

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

> I recall reading something about this in New

> Scientist. IIRC, the older salmon females chose hte

> less agressive males, and the younger females chose

> the more agressive. Could have something to do with

> learning that the agressive ones hurt them, so the

> second time around, they went for the more passive

> ones!

Waitaminnit. I live in salmon country, and if memory and tradition

suffice, salmon spawn and then die. There is no " second time around. "

Am I nuts? (Don't answer that.)

Lynn S.

-----

Lynn Siprelle * Writer, Mother, Programmer, Fiber Artisan

The New Homemaker: http://www.newhomemaker.com/

Siprelle & Associates: http://www.siprelle.com/

People-Powered ! http://www.deanforamerica.com/

[Guest guest]

Depends on the breed, I think.

-- Heidi

>Waitaminnit. I live in salmon country, and if memory and tradition

>suffice, salmon spawn and then die. There is no " second time around. "

>Am I nuts? (Don't answer that.)

>

>Lynn S.

[Guest guest]

On Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 02:16 PM, Heidi Schuppenhauer wrote:

>

> Depends on the breed, I think.

>

> -- Heidi

>

>> Waitaminnit. I live in salmon country, and if memory and tradition

>> suffice, salmon spawn and then die. There is no " second time around. "

>> Am I nuts? (Don't answer that.)

You are correct. From

http://www.thecontentwell.com/Fish_Game/Trout/Trout_Spawning.html:

" Salmonid spawning habits vary greatly among species. Most spawn in

fall, but some like the rainbow trout, spawn in spring. Trout, char,

grayling and Atlantic salmon live to spawn several times, but Pacific

salmon spawn only once, then die. "

I can be forgiven, perhaps, because I live in the Pacific NW, where the

salmon most certainly die in huge thrashing numbers, or did, at the end

of spawn.

Lynn S.

-----

Lynn Siprelle * Writer, Mother, Programmer, Fiber Artisan

The New Homemaker: http://www.newhomemaker.com/

Siprelle & Associates: http://www.siprelle.com/

People-Powered ! http://www.deanforamerica.com/

[Guest guest]

> > I recall reading something about this in New

> > Scientist. IIRC, the older salmon females chose hte

> > less agressive males, and the younger females chose

> > the more agressive. Could have something to do with

> > learning that the agressive ones hurt them, so the

> > second time around, they went for the more passive

> > ones!

>

> Waitaminnit. I live in salmon country, and if memory and tradition

> suffice, salmon spawn and then die. There is no " second time around. "

> Am I nuts? (Don't answer that.)

Perhaps it's something to do with hormones, older fish having more

testosterone and searching for the balance.

Joanne

[Guest guest]

> What I meant was that I can't eat butter or meat or fish without

> something else. Ie: bread in the case of butter.

Only cause you haven't tried 100% grass-fed raw butter. If you ever

get a chance, try eating some off the spoon.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>

> > This was my first impression of what Jo wrote too.

> > Carbs do have minimal

> > satiety value, according to one study I read, so it

> > makes little sense that carbs

> > would reduce satiety. The gluten thing does make

> > sense though.

>

> I have tested this on myself with fruit. I can eat

> endless amount of berries and cream. Few berries, lots

> of cream, and I don't seem to get full. But if I

> drink the cream straight from the pot, I get full when

> I've had enough.

> Just my own experience.v

Jo,

I'm not going to bother testing myself because the potential for

placebo effect, but I guess this must only be true for some people

versus others. I can drink cream by the glass, and it's filling

after a certain point, but no more filling than whipped cream and

berries for me (of course taking into consideration the air in the

whipped cream).

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/6/03 5:47:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

paultheo2000@... writes:

> Speaking of raw dairy products...

>

> I've had the chance to taste raw cheese and found it very similar to

> regular cheese except coarser. Oh, and more costy.

I never buy raw cheese in a store except parmesano reggiano... but the cost

is outrageous, and I can save more than half the price by buying a wheel from a

farmer.

How a cheese tastes and its texture is primarily a function of the individual

cheese and the skill of the cheese-maker. By the by, raw cheese *does* taste

better, especially to people who eat lots of cheese, and high quality cheese.

But the taste is secondary to the point that raw cheese is highly beneficial

to health, whereas pasteurized cheese is not.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/6/03 6:03:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

christiekeith@... writes:

> There are also different methods of pasteurization used in cheesemaking,

> and that will have an impact on the taste and texture too. It's complex

Oh yeah, and not to mention most or many commercial raw cheeses aren't raw at

all, but are just pasteurized at a temp lower than " pastuerization "

temperature.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Speaking of raw dairy products...

I've had the chance to taste raw cheese and found it very similar to

regular cheese except coarser. Oh, and more costy.

-

> > What I meant was that I can't eat butter or meat or fish without

> > something else. Ie: bread in the case of butter.

>

> Only cause you haven't tried 100% grass-fed raw butter. If you ever

> get a chance, try eating some off the spoon.

>

> Chris

[Guest guest]

>> I've had the chance to taste raw cheese and found it very similar to

regular cheese except coarser. Oh, and more costy. <<

This isn't something that can be evaluated by tasting one cheese or one kind of

cheese. What I mean by that is that there is no way to say raw milk or raw cream

cheeses are " coarser " - just that one cheese is coarser than another cheese. I

seek out raw cheeses on principle, but as my " cheese palate " gets more and more

developed, I'm beginning to be able to tell the difference between pasteurized

and raw milk cheeses, sometimes. BUT....

A great pasteurized cheese will still taste better than a mediocre raw milk

cheese. You have to compare apples to apples. There are also different methods

of pasteurization used in cheesemaking, and that will have an impact on the

taste and texture too. It's complex. Taste is not the only consideration (IMO

nutrition is also important), but it's no accident that all the world's great

cheeses are made from raw milk and/or cream, and that all the great cheese

experts in the world unanimously agree on this.

Christie

[Guest guest]

I guess I just have no real motivation to go out and spend nearly

twice as much money just to say I eat raw cheese. In the case of

plastic nut butters and the real thing... I can't imagine choosing the

synthetic kind. But when it comes to cheese I'm really not impressed

(have tried 2 kinds so far). In all honesty, I don't think one is much

healthier than the other.

-Zulu

> >> I've had the chance to taste raw cheese and found it very similar to

> regular cheese except coarser. Oh, and more costy. <<

>

> This isn't something that can be evaluated by tasting one cheese or

one kind of cheese. What I mean by that is that there is no way to say

raw milk or raw cream cheeses are " coarser " - just that one cheese is

coarser than another cheese. I seek out raw cheeses on principle, but

as my " cheese palate " gets more and more developed, I'm beginning to

be able to tell the difference between pasteurized and raw milk

cheeses, sometimes. BUT....

>

> A great pasteurized cheese will still taste better than a mediocre

raw milk cheese. You have to compare apples to apples. There are also

different methods of pasteurization used in cheesemaking, and that

will have an impact on the taste and texture too. It's complex. Taste

is not the only consideration (IMO nutrition is also important), but

it's no accident that all the world's great cheeses are made from raw

milk and/or cream, and that all the great cheese experts in the world

unanimously agree on this.

>

> Christie

>

>

[Guest guest]

>> But when it comes to cheese I'm really not impressed

(have tried 2 kinds so far). In all honesty, I don't think one is much

healthier than the other. <<

I love cheese, and have tried about 150 kinds in my life. But you know me, " it's

a food of love thing. " <G>

As to healthier and not-healthier, I do think that a really good, artisan-made,

fresh cheese made from pastured raw milk and cream from healthy, well-cared for

cows, goats, or sheep is much better for you than cheese made in a factory from

pasteurized milk from agri-farmed cows. In fact, that belief appears to me to be

the entire basis of this group, so I don't quite understand what you mean that

you don't think one is healthier than the other. As I said, all the really great

cheeses are made from raw milk, and all the artisan cheesemakers who are not

constrained by health regulations make their cheeses from raw milk and cream.

Christie

[Guest guest]

> I guess I just have no real motivation to go out and spend nearly

> twice as much money just to say I eat raw cheese. In the case of

> plastic nut butters and the real thing... I can't imagine choosing

the

> synthetic kind. But when it comes to cheese I'm really not impressed

> (have tried 2 kinds so far). In all honesty, I don't think one is

much

> healthier than the other.

>

> -Zulu

Just curious, but why do you sign some of your posts as

" " , and others as " Zulu " ?

[Guest guest]

I guess I'm just looking to be convinced I'm new to the group and

not I agree with many of it's principles, but not all...and so I

investigate the rest

-

> >> But when it comes to cheese I'm really not impressed

> (have tried 2 kinds so far). In all honesty, I don't think one is much

> healthier than the other. <<

>

> I love cheese, and have tried about 150 kinds in my life. But you

know me, " it's a food of love thing. " <G>

>

> As to healthier and not-healthier, I do think that a really good,

artisan-made, fresh cheese made from pastured raw milk and cream from

healthy, well-cared for cows, goats, or sheep is much better for you

than cheese made in a factory from pasteurized milk from agri-farmed

cows. In fact, that belief appears to me to be the entire basis of

this group, so I don't quite understand what you mean that you don't

think one is healthier than the other. As I said, all the really great

cheeses are made from raw milk, and all the artisan cheesemakers who

are not constrained by health regulations make their cheeses from raw

milk and cream.

>

> Christie

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

My pseudonym on almost all other boards I frequent online is Zulu. On

this board, and the calorie restriction board, which are somewhat more

personal, I post with my real name, ie: . Sometimes I confuse the

two; writing my nick at the bottom of posts can become automatic.

-

> > I guess I just have no real motivation to go out and spend nearly

> > twice as much money just to say I eat raw cheese. In the case of

> > plastic nut butters and the real thing... I can't imagine choosing

> the

> > synthetic kind. But when it comes to cheese I'm really not impressed

> > (have tried 2 kinds so far). In all honesty, I don't think one is

> much

> > healthier than the other.

> >

> > -Zulu

>

> Just curious, but why do you sign some of your posts as

> " " , and others as " Zulu " ?

>

>

[Guest guest]

, i have to say i totally agree with Christie's posts about

cheese. i find dairy lustfully delicious in most of its forms, but

i've had some raw cheeses that blew my mind into outer space they

were so dramatically more delicious than other cheeses, raw or

pasteurized. i've contacted NASA to help me get my mind back, but in

the meantime i will continue to enjoy artisanal raw cheese. my

advice is to buy some premium raw cheese online or from a specialized

cheese shop. just don't eat it standing up near any sharp objects

that might damage your internal organs when you faint with pleasure.

mike parker

> >> I've had the chance to taste raw cheese and found it very

similar to

> regular cheese except coarser. Oh, and more costy. <<

>

> This isn't something that can be evaluated by tasting one cheese or

one kind of cheese. What I mean by that is that there is no way to

say raw milk or raw cream cheeses are " coarser " - just that one

cheese is coarser than another cheese. I seek out raw cheeses on

principle, but as my " cheese palate " gets more and more developed,

I'm beginning to be able to tell the difference between pasteurized

and raw milk cheeses, sometimes. BUT....

>

> A great pasteurized cheese will still taste better than a mediocre

raw milk cheese. You have to compare apples to apples. There are also

different methods of pasteurization used in cheesemaking, and that

will have an impact on the taste and texture too. It's complex. Taste

is not the only consideration (IMO nutrition is also important), but

it's no accident that all the world's great cheeses are made from raw

milk and/or cream, and that all the great cheese experts in the world

unanimously agree on this.

>

> Christie

>

>

[Guest guest]

>> i've contacted NASA to help me get my mind back, but in

the meantime i will continue to enjoy artisanal raw cheese. my

advice is to buy some premium raw cheese online or from a specialized

cheese shop. just don't eat it standing up near any sharp objects

that might damage your internal organs when you faint with pleasure. <<

ROFL, oh so true... I actually got WEEPY when my local Whole Foods stopped

carrying La Garottin because it's not actually aged 60 days as required by

idiotic US import laws. I mean, I felt like I was going to cry and I was so

embarrassed, but the woman at the cheese counter told me she had three other

customers who DID cry when she told them.

Don't mess with my cheese. <G>

Christie

[Guest guest]

Dear Zulu/,

FYI.... there are 100s of raw cheese out there maybe not so many available in

North America..

I guess when you're 17 yrs old you can make such pronouncements having tried

only two !

Dedy

Re: Guilt, satiety, calorie restriction...

I guess I just have no real motivation to go out and spend nearly

twice as much money just to say I eat raw cheese. In the case of

plastic nut butters and the real thing... I can't imagine choosing the

synthetic kind. But when it comes to cheese I'm really not impressed

(have tried 2 kinds so far). In all honesty, I don't think one is much

healthier than the other.

-Zulu

> >> I've had the chance to taste raw cheese and found it very similar to

> regular cheese except coarser. Oh, and more costy. <<

>

> This isn't something that can be evaluated by tasting one cheese or

one kind of cheese. What I mean by that is that there is no way to say

raw milk or raw cream cheeses are " coarser " - just that one cheese is

coarser than another cheese. I seek out raw cheeses on principle, but

as my " cheese palate " gets more and more developed, I'm beginning to

be able to tell the difference between pasteurized and raw milk

cheeses, sometimes. BUT....

>

> A great pasteurized cheese will still taste better than a mediocre

raw milk cheese. You have to compare apples to apples. There are also

different methods of pasteurization used in cheesemaking, and that

will have an impact on the taste and texture too. It's complex. Taste

is not the only consideration (IMO nutrition is also important), but

it's no accident that all the world's great cheeses are made from raw

milk and/or cream, and that all the great cheese experts in the world

unanimously agree on this.

>

> Christie

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm genuinely curious as to what exactly the differences are. It seems

most of the arguments on this front are intuitively based.

-

> In a message dated 10/6/03 5:47:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> paultheo2000@y... writes:

>

> > Speaking of raw dairy products...

> >

> > I've had the chance to taste raw cheese and found it very similar to

> > regular cheese except coarser. Oh, and more costy.

>

> I never buy raw cheese in a store except parmesano reggiano... but

the cost

> is outrageous, and I can save more than half the price by buying a

wheel from a

> farmer.

>

> How a cheese tastes and its texture is primarily a function of the

individual

> cheese and the skill of the cheese-maker. By the by, raw cheese

*does* taste

> better, especially to people who eat lots of cheese, and high

quality cheese.

>

> But the taste is secondary to the point that raw cheese is highly

beneficial

> to health, whereas pasteurized cheese is not.

>

> Chris

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>> I'm genuinely curious as to what exactly the differences are. It seems

most of the arguments on this front are intuitively based. <<

Sheesh, ! Food is not a chemistry experiment! It's about what you LOVE,

about what tastes good to you, about how what you eat makes you feel, about how

flavors work together with other flavors.

There are people all over the world who fuss and fret over every leaf of clover

and blade of grass their livestock eat - who get up at 5 am to milk their goats

- who sit in freezing cold barns ladeling cream into milk so they can make

traditional artisanal cheeses using recipes handed down for hundreds of years

from some little dairy in the south of France. Of COURSE it's intuitive. That's

the whole point. It's art.

And so is knowing the differences between the hundreds of kinds of cheeses there

are in the world. They are nutty, mossy, grassy, gamey, pungent, creamy, fruity,

woody..... the list is endless. It's like wine. As you eat great cheeses and

carefully-made cheeses, gradually your palate will become educated and you'll

realize that there is a world of difference among not just kinds of cheese, but

the same kind of cheese made in different years.

Cheese may never be " your thing, " that's fine. Everyone is different and has

different passions. But it's no more realistic to say there are no substantive

differences among cheeses than to say that a $4 bottle of Gallo is just the same

as a bottle of Château Mouton Rothschild.

I was going to suggest one of my favorite food books, " The Cheese Primer " by

. And it's a good one. But maybe a better one is " A Year in

Provence " by Mayle. The first is just the facts, ma'am, but the second is

the intuitive part. Both together would be just about perfect.

Christie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/7/03 8:06:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

paultheo2000@... writes:

> I'm genuinely curious as to what exactly the differences are. It seems

> most of the arguments on this front are intuitively based.

Then read www.realmilk.com, then if you have questions or want to dispute

something, please share. Pasteurization destroys lots of the nutrition,

including the enzymes, including the phosphatase, which is needed to assimilate

calcium. Pasturing is as important as raw, and most raw products are pastured,

whereas most pasteurized products are not. Full-fat is also important, and raw

milk is full-fat because it's just straight from the cow, whereas ordinary whole

milk has cream skimmed from it if it's above the government standard for the

fat content of " whole " milk. Pastuerized milk seems to be allergenic whereas

raw milk seems not to be.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Well said!!

> >> I'm genuinely curious as to what exactly the differences are. It

seems

> most of the arguments on this front are intuitively based. <<

>

> Sheesh, ! Food is not a chemistry experiment! It's about what

you LOVE, about what tastes good to you, about how what you eat makes

you feel, about how flavors work together with other flavors.

>

> There are people all over the world who fuss and fret over every

leaf of clover and blade of grass their livestock eat - who get up at

5 am to milk their goats - who sit in freezing cold barns ladeling

cream into milk so they can make traditional artisanal cheeses using

recipes handed down for hundreds of years from some little dairy in

the south of France. Of COURSE it's intuitive. That's the whole

point. It's art.

>

> And so is knowing the differences between the hundreds of kinds of

cheeses there are in the world. They are nutty, mossy, grassy, gamey,

pungent, creamy, fruity, woody..... the list is endless. It's like

wine. As you eat great cheeses and carefully-made cheeses, gradually

your palate will become educated and you'll realize that there is a

world of difference among not just kinds of cheese, but the same kind

of cheese made in different years.

>

> Cheese may never be " your thing, " that's fine. Everyone is

different and has different passions. But it's no more realistic to

say there are no substantive differences among cheeses than to say

that a $4 bottle of Gallo is just the same as a bottle of Château

Mouton Rothschild.

>

> I was going to suggest one of my favorite food books, " The Cheese

Primer " by . And it's a good one. But maybe a better

one is " A Year in Provence " by Mayle. The first is just the

facts, ma'am, but the second is the intuitive part. Both together

would be just about perfect.

>

> Christie

>

>