Re: Guilt, satiety, calorie restriction...

[Guest guest]

>

> I think if it weren't for fruits I might be a low-carber myself...

Hey! Who're you callin' a " fruit " ?

[Guest guest]

>>>I'm curious: has anyone else had the same experience as Betsy? It

hasn't held true for me (so far--I've only been eating clean less

about 6 months now) yet. A study I saw showed that people still found

most junk foods delicious after 6 years of abstinence.

Any anecdotes?

---->yes, my experience mirrors betsy's in that the more regularly i eat

nourishing foods, the less appealing junk food becomes. i've seen the same

thing posted to this list several times over the past year and a half.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 10:57:07 -0000

" paultheo2000 " <paultheo2000@...> wrote:

>Here's one: http://www.dolfzine.com/page129.htm

>

>Now, this isn't the most scientific article out there, but I should

>point out that Mel Siff is probabaly THE foremost authority when it

>comes to weightlifting.

>

>-

>

I don't really see the point of CR personally although everyone has

their preferences.

I noticed that Mel Siff died of a heart attack at 59. do you know

the cause?

Exciting Jealousy in Women and Terror in Men

Taki on marriage.

http://tinyurl.com/p7pr

[Guest guest]

>You might be right, it looks possibly overblown. I did a little looking, and

>it looks like potential dangerous stuff-- aspartame DOES raise methanol and

>fermaldehyde blood levels, but it might be true that exposure to these are even

>greater from non-aspartame sources, in which case it might be insignificant.

I did read one article that sounded rather relevant ... someone stored some

Aspartame cola at fairly warm temps, then tested the formaldehyde, which was

high. Now, formaldehyde is not bothersome to a lot of people, but to others

it is a potent allergen. I think this may explain some of the anomolies with

aspartame. If it is in something like Crystal Light, made from powder, it

likely does not contain formaldehyde. Likely the experiments done with soft

drinks were also not done with old soft drinks, poorly stored. But it is

fairly well known that formaldehyde causes problems for some folks, even

though it is " natural " and created in the gut too.

All of which is basically agreeing with Chris. Personally I think the stuff

tastes horrid, and when I drink " soft drinks " I've taken a liking to

mineral water.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Various responses (on stevia, ice cream and aspartame) in this thread...

____________

In a message dated 10/3/03 8:08:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

paultheo2000@... writes:

> Yeah, that's pretty much the way I saw it as well. Anyway, I plan to

> drop the no-sugar carbonated beverages from my diet anyway due to the

> insulinogenic effect (pavlovian response, I believe) and because the

> acclimation to sweetness probably detracts from the tastes of other

> foods.

Ok, now it's my turn ;-) : do you have any hard info on this? Because I've

seen this claimed, but never seen any back up their statements on this.

___________

>Sounds like we agree. If the taste is similar though, I still can't

>get myself to use vanilla sugar instead of vanilla extract (or

>extracts in general).

~~~~~~What's wrong with vanilla extract?

>Coconut and chocolate icecream can be

>deliciously sweetened with stevia though, I find. Maybe a carb-free

>maple syrup would make for good icecream (with cream, coconut milk,

>egg yolks which is what I usually use).

~~~~~~~How much maple syrup do you use?! With all the fat, if you don't

gorge on it all day, and rather reserve it for a desert, I don't see why maple

syrup would be a problem. I personally think real sugars satisfy the brain in a

way fake sugars don't, but it might depend on the person. If you really want

to decrease the sugar content, sweetening with raw honey, or part raw honey,

will decrease it, because while honey has a tiny amount more sugar per

tablespoon, it has around twice the sweetness, so you can use less.

But why don't you promise yourself you are going to reserve ice cream for

certain days of the week, or you are going to reserve ice cream for a reward

after your workout, and eat the ice cream after eating all of your meat and

veggies and everything else, reserve the ice cream for night time, and then go

at it?

Unless you like these fake sugars, I guess it doens't matter.

Chris

__________

wrote:

" Stevia is definitely safe from everything I've read, and, IMHO, the

best sweetener out there. It's sweet, but sugar free and there's no

risk of it being toxic. From what I've gathered it's been used for

hundreds of years in various parts of the world. It even contains

various trace minerals and anti-cavity properties. "

~~~~My understanding is white stevia powder and stevioside drops have any of

the nutrients refined out of them. The green stevia which contains the all of

the nutrients in the whole leaf, has a very funny aftertaste. Have you read

that even the white powder and drops specifically contain these nutrients?

Chris

____________

" Last person online I spoke too told me that the last 500 studies on

aspartame have shown it to be safe. "

~~~~~,

This really doesn't mean much, as you've seen if you've paid attention to

say, the study on animal fat and breast cancer which someone recently posted an

analysis of to the list which actually found animal fats to be protective

against breast cancer, while in the abstract the very authorst themselves lied

and

said they had a linear positive correlation between animal fat and breast

cancer, which was repeated in media outlets all over.

Reading the abstract can be valuable, but you can't simply take what it says

at face value without reading the full-text, and you certainly can't rely on a

friend's supposed analysis of 500 studies. And unless your friend actually

read all the 500 studies, then this getting closer to hearsay, which isn't even

allowed in court, than the scientific method.

Don't you know anyone who gets headaches from diet sodas? I bet if you ask

around for random people's opinions on diet sodas you'll find at least several

who will tell you they don't drink them because they get headaches from them.

Since some people don't get headaches, clearly different people metabolize

the ingredients in different ways. However, high doses of aspartame DO

increase the blood levels of methanol and fermaldehyde, and phenylalinine CAN

definitely be neurotoxic when not in a protein. So one of the problems with

these

studies is when they find a certain percentage of people getting neurotoxic

effects they say it isn't a problem with the aspartame, but a problem with the

person's ability to metabolize phenylalynine. Well that's really semantics.

The high percentage of people that seem to have bad reactions to nutrisweet

indicates to me that the percentage of people that would suffer significant

neurotoxicity from aspartame is probably considerable.

Chris

_______

[Guest guest]

I would be much indebted

-(theo)

> -

>

> My personal recommendation. Either you believe me or you don't. In

the

> unlikely event I have time, I could dig up my copy and post some

excerpts

> for you, but I doubt I'll be able to.

>

> >I have many books on my to-read list...how do I know this won't be a

> >scare-tactic book?

>

>

>

> -

[Guest guest]

How long do you think it takes to see 'results'? I've already cut out

almost all junk from my diet (although I'm still trying to figure out

phytates and breads). Maybe I need some sort of plan...where I

gradually use less and less sweetening of any kind. Problem is, I

tried that for a month and my green tea still tasted like crap!

-

> >>>I'm curious: has anyone else had the same experience as Betsy? It

> hasn't held true for me (so far--I've only been eating clean less

> about 6 months now) yet. A study I saw showed that people still found

> most junk foods delicious after 6 years of abstinence.

>

> Any anecdotes?

>

>

> ---->yes, my experience mirrors betsy's in that the more regularly i eat

> nourishing foods, the less appealing junk food becomes. i've seen

the same

> thing posted to this list several times over the past year and a half.

>

>

>

> Suze Fisher

> Lapdog Design, Inc.

> Web Design & Development

> http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

> Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

> http://www.westonaprice.org

>

> ----------------------------

> " The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

> heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. "

--

> Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

> University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

>

> The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

> <http://www.thincs.org>

> ----------------------------

[Guest guest]

Well, I'd definitely like another 20 years of life and a greatly

reduced chance of Cancer

I don't know the cause but I believe he had cardiac problems from his

youth onwards. Tragic, in any case...the man will be missed.

-

>

> >Here's one: http://www.dolfzine.com/page129.htm

> >

> >Now, this isn't the most scientific article out there, but I should

> >point out that Mel Siff is probabaly THE foremost authority when it

> >comes to weightlifting.

> >

> >-

> >

>

> I don't really see the point of CR personally although everyone has

> their preferences.

>

> I noticed that Mel Siff died of a heart attack at 59. do you know

> the cause?

>

>

> Exciting Jealousy in Women and Terror in Men

> Taki on marriage.

> http://tinyurl.com/p7pr

[Guest guest]

Hi

I found the following two studies (there appears to be no consensus on

whether artifical sweeteners spike insulin or not):

" Cephalic phase responses to sweet taste. "

" The effect of artificial sweetener on insulin secretion. 1. The

effect of acesulfame K on insulin secretion in the rat (studies in vivo). "

On Pubmed.

Nothing wrong with vanilla extract...I just assumed you wouldn't

approve because it's not 'natural'. I guess that's what I will use,

then

I will save the icecream for after meals, as you suggest. I think I'll

stick to stevia though... I see no real benefit in consuming extra

simple carbs.

Hmm, I never considered whether the white stevia powder still

contained the nutrients. Perhaps it doesn't...but I still consider it

the best sweetener around. I considered buying green stevia but it was

with maltodextrin so I chose for the white.

I won't disagree with you that many people have side effects to

artificial sweeteners or sugar alcohols...but since I have no problem

with them, I see no reason to avoid them as of yet.

BTW, I notice that you (and others here) drink tea. Does this mean you

disagree with Tea and its caffeine content?

-

-----

> Ok, now it's my turn ;-) : do you have any hard info on this?

Because I've

> seen this claimed, but never seen any back up their statements on this.

-----

> ~~~~~~What's wrong with vanilla extract?

>

> >Coconut and chocolate icecream can be

> >deliciously sweetened with stevia though, I find. Maybe a carb-free

> >maple syrup would make for good icecream (with cream, coconut milk,

> >egg yolks which is what I usually use).

>

> ~~~~~~~How much maple syrup do you use?! With all the fat, if you

don't

> gorge on it all day, and rather reserve it for a desert, I don't see

why maple

> syrup would be a problem. I personally think real sugars satisfy

the brain in a

> way fake sugars don't, but it might depend on the person. If you

really want

> to decrease the sugar content, sweetening with raw honey, or part

raw honey,

> will decrease it, because while honey has a tiny amount more sugar per

> tablespoon, it has around twice the sweetness, so you can use less.

>

> But why don't you promise yourself you are going to reserve ice

cream for

> certain days of the week, or you are going to reserve ice cream for

a reward

> after your workout, and eat the ice cream after eating all of your

meat and

> veggies and everything else, reserve the ice cream for night time,

and then go at it?

>

> Unless you like these fake sugars, I guess it doens't matter.

>

> Chris

> __________

>

> wrote:

> " Stevia is definitely safe from everything I've read, and, IMHO, the

> best sweetener out there. It's sweet, but sugar free and there's no

> risk of it being toxic. From what I've gathered it's been used for

> hundreds of years in various parts of the world. It even contains

> various trace minerals and anti-cavity properties. "

>

> ~~~~My understanding is white stevia powder and stevioside drops

have any of

> the nutrients refined out of them. The green stevia which contains

the all of

> the nutrients in the whole leaf, has a very funny aftertaste. Have

you read

> that even the white powder and drops specifically contain these

nutrients?

>

> Chris

> ____________

> " Last person online I spoke too told me that the last 500 studies on

> aspartame have shown it to be safe. "

>

> ~~~~~,

> This really doesn't mean much, as you've seen if you've paid

attention to

> say, the study on animal fat and breast cancer which someone

recently posted an

> analysis of to the list which actually found animal fats to be

protective

> against breast cancer, while in the abstract the very authorst

themselves lied and

> said they had a linear positive correlation between animal fat and

breast

> cancer, which was repeated in media outlets all over.

>

> Reading the abstract can be valuable, but you can't simply take what

it says

> at face value without reading the full-text, and you certainly can't

rely on a

> friend's supposed analysis of 500 studies. And unless your friend

actually

> read all the 500 studies, then this getting closer to hearsay, which

isn't even

> allowed in court, than the scientific method.

>

> Don't you know anyone who gets headaches from diet sodas? I bet if

you ask

> around for random people's opinions on diet sodas you'll find at

least several

> who will tell you they don't drink them because they get headaches

from them.

> Since some people don't get headaches, clearly different people

metabolize

> the ingredients in different ways. However, high doses of aspartame DO

> increase the blood levels of methanol and fermaldehyde, and

phenylalinine CAN

> definitely be neurotoxic when not in a protein. So one of the

problems with these

> studies is when they find a certain percentage of people getting

neurotoxic

> effects they say it isn't a problem with the aspartame, but a

problem with the

> person's ability to metabolize phenylalynine. Well that's really

semantics.

>

> The high percentage of people that seem to have bad reactions to

nutrisweet

> indicates to me that the percentage of people that would suffer

significant

> neurotoxicity from aspartame is probably considerable.

>

> Chris

> _______

[Guest guest]

>>>>I don't know the cause but I believe he had cardiac problems from his

youth onwards. Tragic, in any case...the man will be missed.

---->he had a previous cardiac arrest that lasted for seven minutes,

depriving his heart of oxygen. he then had a quadruple bypass. he tried to

modify his training schedule to rehabilitate his heart. but the man did

serious heavy olympic lifting, i believe...perhaps it was too much for a

heart that had already been damaged. especially since he was a

vegetarian...no food source co-q10 in the diet and no other heart support

nutrients from animal foods.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

--- paultheo2000 <paultheo2000@...> wrote: > Hi

>

> No, I must of missed the article, do you have a

> link?

>

> I don't know about sat. fat being satisfying. I'm

> pretty sure I could

> entire loaves of bread with salty butter on it

> (unfortunately).

>

Fat is the most filling food there is, and I agree

with about sat fat being more filling than other

types (certainly olive oil does not hit the spot for

me!)

However, one nutritionist that I know (Dr Barry Groves

PhD) advises that eating fat WITH carbs reduces the

satiety value of fat. So, you would probably find you

can eat more butter with bread than without bread.

Also, you'll probably find with bread, you can just

carry on eating even when you're full, even stuffed.

With fat, once you're full, it's hard to go on without

feeling sick (yes, I've been there!!!)

This is one reason I follow a low carb diet - fat is

so filling, and I just eat waaayyy too much when I eat

a higher level of carbs.

> Oh, I do keep sugary things as treats. But then it

> escalates,

> unfortunately.

Yes, sugar is a self-perpetuating craving. Once you

satisfy it, back it comes with a vengeance! Could be

a candida overgrowth problem, or some imbalance. I

have taken a big step lately to totally remove grains

from my diet (following recent threads). I used to

get the odd craving for chocolate, and occasionally a

strong craving for sweet stuff (although not nearly as

bad as pre-low carb). Now I find I don't fancy

chocolate at all! Even the high cocoa content stuff!

I'll eat dinner, and feel fairly

> full. So I tell myself

> I can eat a banana...but that usually just makes me

> hungrier again. I

> tested this just now and I think that perhaps the

> only way to avoid

> hunger is by eating fairly bland things (non-spiced

> steak, squash and

> green veggies seems to do the trick).

Why does eating a banana lead you to that conclusion?

Why not just stop the banana, or other sweet things

after an ordinary dinner that's full of flavour. IMO

there is nothing more likely to make you binge than

eating foods you consider bland - you will soon get

bored.

>

> Oh, I never feel depressed about eating...although I

> do feel somewhat

> guilty (less than before). On the one hand, if I

> never felt guilty, I

> might indulge in really unhealthy foods, so I think

> guilt isn't all bad.

It works both ways doesn't it? If I didn't have the

guilt, I would be more unhealhty now! However, I had

absoutely no guilt issues about food until I started

thinking about what I was eating and realising some

weren't doing me good! Now I'm just obsessed.

However, I'm getting better as I get healthier - I am

very in tune with my body and notice each food's

effect on me, so now I choose not to eat something as

I recognise a detriment to my health, rahter than

telling myself only " I can't eat that - it's not

allowed on my diet " . That's the way I get around the

guilt. It's rational reason why I can't eat

something.

HTH

Jo

________________________________________________________________________

Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE

Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk

[Guest guest]

Hi PAul

I also follow Atkins and am attempting to NT as well!

I do eat fruit, but only the lower carb fruits - melon

and berries. I find fruit is terrible for setting off

fruit cravings.

I never eat bread - it is my nemesis!!! It was the

hardest thing for me about going low carb. But hte

foods we are addicted to probably do us the most

damage.

Jo

--- paultheo2000 <paultheo2000@...> wrote: > Do

you eat bread or fruit? How did you go about

> eliminating most carbs

> from your diet?

>

> Cheers,

>

> -

>

________________________________________________________________________

Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE

Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk

[Guest guest]

Hi Jo,

Perhaps I'm not as lucky as you but I simply don't find raw fat of any

kind (except perhaps cheese) at all palatable. I'd rather not eat at

all than eat raw butter.

-

> Hi

>

> >

> > No, I must of missed the article, do you have a

> > link?

> >

> > I don't know about sat. fat being satisfying. I'm

> > pretty sure I could

> > entire loaves of bread with salty butter on it

> > (unfortunately).

> >

>

> Fat is the most filling food there is, and I agree

> with about sat fat being more filling than other

> types (certainly olive oil does not hit the spot for

> me!)

>

> However, one nutritionist that I know (Dr Barry Groves

> PhD) advises that eating fat WITH carbs reduces the

> satiety value of fat. So, you would probably find you

> can eat more butter with bread than without bread.

> Also, you'll probably find with bread, you can just

> carry on eating even when you're full, even stuffed.

> With fat, once you're full, it's hard to go on without

> feeling sick (yes, I've been there!!!)

>

> This is one reason I follow a low carb diet - fat is

> so filling, and I just eat waaayyy too much when I eat

> a higher level of carbs.

>

>

> > Oh, I do keep sugary things as treats. But then it

> > escalates,

> > unfortunately.

>

> Yes, sugar is a self-perpetuating craving. Once you

> satisfy it, back it comes with a vengeance! Could be

> a candida overgrowth problem, or some imbalance. I

> have taken a big step lately to totally remove grains

> from my diet (following recent threads). I used to

> get the odd craving for chocolate, and occasionally a

> strong craving for sweet stuff (although not nearly as

> bad as pre-low carb). Now I find I don't fancy

> chocolate at all! Even the high cocoa content stuff!

>

> I'll eat dinner, and feel fairly

> > full. So I tell myself

> > I can eat a banana...but that usually just makes me

> > hungrier again. I

> > tested this just now and I think that perhaps the

> > only way to avoid

> > hunger is by eating fairly bland things (non-spiced

> > steak, squash and

> > green veggies seems to do the trick).

>

> Why does eating a banana lead you to that conclusion?

> Why not just stop the banana, or other sweet things

> after an ordinary dinner that's full of flavour. IMO

> there is nothing more likely to make you binge than

> eating foods you consider bland - you will soon get

> bored.

>

>

> >

> > Oh, I never feel depressed about eating...although I

> > do feel somewhat

> > guilty (less than before). On the one hand, if I

> > never felt guilty, I

> > might indulge in really unhealthy foods, so I think

> > guilt isn't all bad.

>

> It works both ways doesn't it? If I didn't have the

> guilt, I would be more unhealhty now! However, I had

> absoutely no guilt issues about food until I started

> thinking about what I was eating and realising some

> weren't doing me good! Now I'm just obsessed.

> However, I'm getting better as I get healthier - I am

> very in tune with my body and notice each food's

> effect on me, so now I choose not to eat something as

> I recognise a detriment to my health, rahter than

> telling myself only " I can't eat that - it's not

> allowed on my diet " . That's the way I get around the

> guilt. It's rational reason why I can't eat

> something.

>

> HTH

>

> Jo

>

> ________________________________________________________________________

> Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE

> Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk

[Guest guest]

Did you cut out bread entirely or substitute with low carb bread or

something else?

-

> Do

> you eat bread or fruit? How did you go about

> > eliminating most carbs

> > from your diet?

> >

> > Cheers,

> >

> > -

> >

>

> ________________________________________________________________________

> Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE

> Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk

[Guest guest]

>How long do you think it takes to see 'results'? I've already cut out

>almost all junk from my diet (although I'm still trying to figure out

>phytates and breads). Maybe I need some sort of plan...where I

>gradually use less and less sweetening of any kind. Problem is, I

>tried that for a month and my green tea still tasted like crap!

>

>-

You might try losing the grains for a week ... a LOT

of people feel dramatically different if they stop ALL

grains. Mostly it is the gluten grains that are the

problem, but many other grain foods (crackers etc)

and even whole rice, are contaminated. Anyway, the

craving for sweets and the gluten reaction seem

very much related. And milk has the same reaction,

for some folks.

Very often when you get rid of the allergen the

sugar craving just disappears.

The other thing that makes the sugar craving

disappear is getting enough calories. I do think

another people on the SAD eat so much sugar

is they try to " diet " so hard. Eat a teeny dinner

then gobble some candy. Try eating some jerky

every time you have a sugar craving, or keep

some ovenfried chicken in the fridge (I love

cold fried chicken ... that was one of my Mom's

" travel foods " we took fishing). Or eat an apple

with peanut butter.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>However, one nutritionist that I know (Dr Barry Groves

>PhD) advises that eating fat WITH carbs reduces the

>satiety value of fat. So, you would probably find you

>can eat more butter with bread than without bread.

>Also, you'll probably find with bread, you can just

>carry on eating even when you're full, even stuffed.

>With fat, once you're full, it's hard to go on without

>feeling sick (yes, I've been there!!!)

I found that with bread too, when I was eating

regular bread. I didn't find it with potatoes though,

and potatoes are actually considered one of THE

most satisfying food. Sweet potatoes even more

so. And now that I'm making GF bread, no one

seems to be able to stuff themselves as full.

Whis is part of my " gluten fools the appestat "

theory ... Anyway, I'd encourage you to try

a baked potato or sweet potato with tons

of butter. Or hash browns. They ARE filling!

Even more filling is soup. Put your meat,

potatoes, carrots, greens all in one pot.

If you add beans you will be stuffed. Soups

can have a lot of fat too, to add calories,

or put cheese on top.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

I've gone a week with practically no carbs (and no bread) and I saw no

difference. Although at some point my bowel movements were nigh on

perfect, and I haven't been able to duplicate that experience since.

What I've done is snacked on nuts instead of candy. Although dark

chocolate still gets to me (I shall try to find a sugarfree variety!).

-

>

> >How long do you think it takes to see 'results'? I've already cut out

> >almost all junk from my diet (although I'm still trying to figure out

> >phytates and breads). Maybe I need some sort of plan...where I

> >gradually use less and less sweetening of any kind. Problem is, I

> >tried that for a month and my green tea still tasted like crap!

> >

> >-

>

> You might try losing the grains for a week ... a LOT

> of people feel dramatically different if they stop ALL

> grains. Mostly it is the gluten grains that are the

> problem, but many other grain foods (crackers etc)

> and even whole rice, are contaminated. Anyway, the

> craving for sweets and the gluten reaction seem

> very much related. And milk has the same reaction,

> for some folks.

>

> Very often when you get rid of the allergen the

> sugar craving just disappears.

>

> The other thing that makes the sugar craving

> disappear is getting enough calories. I do think

> another people on the SAD eat so much sugar

> is they try to " diet " so hard. Eat a teeny dinner

> then gobble some candy. Try eating some jerky

> every time you have a sugar craving, or keep

> some ovenfried chicken in the fridge (I love

> cold fried chicken ... that was one of my Mom's

> " travel foods " we took fishing). Or eat an apple

> with peanut butter.

>

> -- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>

> . . . BTW, I notice that you (and others here) drink tea.

> Does this mean you disagree with Tea and its caffeine content?

I definitely think that caffeine stimulates insulin,

but I only have _real_ tea, that is green tea with

caffeine in it, maybe once or twice a week and always

with a meal. Since I went on a low-carbohydrate diet,

I've been drinking decaffeinated Constant Comment tea

with stevia (since spiced black tea should always be

sweetened, but green tea never (-, to satisfy my

desire for something sweet everyday. I consider the

desire for, and enjoyment of sweet things to be

completely natural. It is the excess that is a problem.

We no longer have the same natural controls on our total

intake of carbohydrate that existed for humans in the

palaeolithic.

[Guest guest]

--- paultheo2000 <paultheo2000@...> wrote: >

> I'm curious: has anyone else had the same experience

> as Betsy? It

> hasn't held true for me (so far--I've only been

> eating clean less

> about 6 months now) yet. A study I saw showed that

> people still found

> most junk foods delicious after 6 years of

> abstinence.

>

> Any anecdotes?

>

I never really ate a lot of junk food. I did have

diet coke fairly regularly, then gave it up, now it

tastes just foul!! I don't enjoy junk food now - not

because I used to be addicted but because it just

doesn't taste as good as real food.

However, I used to be a binge drinker from age 17. I

didn't have an off-switch for alcohol, so I just drank

and drank until I threw up every weekend. That went

on for a year until I was about 19. I'd had a " last

night blow out " on holiday and drank so much that I

threw up every couple hours for 36 hours. I could not

go near alcohol after that without gagging.

Then after a year I started to drink again. My off

switch was still non-existent, so I had an on

again/off again relationship with alcohol through

university and my early working years. Eventually, I

couldn't take the hang overs any more, so gave up for

about 5 years. I actually stopped liking alcohol -

couldn't touch it at all! People were amazed that I

could abstain on a Saturday night and watch every one

else getting drunk, and that I didn't have wine with a

meal. But when you just plain don't like it, it's not

an issue. I would feel an urge to gag at just a sip.

Anyway, recently I have started to have the odd glass

of wine, and find I can tolerate a little bit now,

although 2 glasses is my absolute limit before I feel

ill. I don't think I'll ever be able to get beyond

that limit, and I HATE being drunk, and HATE feeling

ill from it. My off switch has developed with a

vengeance! lol!

Jo

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[Guest guest]

>I definitely think that caffeine stimulates insulin,

>but I only have _real_ tea, that is green tea with

>caffeine in it, maybe once or twice a week and always

>with a meal.

I was reading something recently about the L-theanine content of green tea,

which apparently mitigates the effect of the small amount of caffeine, and

has a net calming effect. I've taken theanine as a supplement, and it does

have a very subtle calming effect.

-

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

I would like to hear about your GF bread that you are making. I have tried

making natural rise sourdough, I was trying to perfect it when we moved and we

were in limbo for 6 weeks and I still haven't unpacked enough to try making

much, but I am interested in making all our bread instead of buying.

Michele

And now that I'm making GF bread, no one

seems to be able to stuff themselves as full.

Whis is part of my " gluten fools the appestat "

theory ... Anyway, I'd encourage you to try

a baked potato or sweet potato with tons

of butter. Or hash browns. They ARE filling!

Even more filling is soup. Put your meat,

potatoes, carrots, greens all in one pot.

If you add beans you will be stuffed. Soups

can have a lot of fat too, to add calories,

or put cheese on top.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

A couple replies.

In a message dated 10/4/03 8:54:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

paultheo2000@... writes:

> Nothing wrong with vanilla extract...I just assumed you wouldn't

> approve because it's not 'natural'. I guess that's what I will use,

> then

It isn't?

>

> I will save the icecream for after meals, as you suggest. I think I'll

> stick to stevia though... I see no real benefit in consuming extra

> simple carbs.

Sure, if you like it.

> I won't disagree with you that many people have side effects to

> artificial sweeteners or sugar alcohols...but since I have no problem

> with them, I see no reason to avoid them as of yet.

Perhaps... I stay away from them in part on philosophical grounds, but I'm

not convinced of aspartame's safety either, and it looks like it has enormous

potential to be poison.

> BTW, I notice that you (and others here) drink tea. Does this mean you

> disagree with Tea and its caffeine content?

I don't think caffeine is bad unless you consume more than your metabolism

can handle. Otherwise I think it could be positive in low enough amounts.

Chris

______

Heidi wrote:

" I found that with bread too, when I was eating

regular bread. I didn't find it with potatoes though,

and potatoes are actually considered one of THE

most satisfying food. Sweet potatoes even more

so. And now that I'm making GF bread, no one

seems to be able to stuff themselves as full. "

This was my first impression of what Jo wrote too. Carbs do have minimal

satiety value, according to one study I read, so it makes little sense that

carbs

would reduce satiety. The gluten thing does make sense though.

Chris

__________

[Guest guest]

Here is the recipe that works the best so far:

In a 2 cup measuring cup, put some water and your yeast and sugar, let the yeast

get started frothing.

Add some oil. Add 4 eggs. Add enough kefir (kefiili) to bring it to 1 1/2 or 2

cups.

Mix 3 cups sorghum flour (or 2 cups sorghum and 1 cup tapioca) (or a mix of

potato and rice flour) and 2 tsp. xanathan gum. Mix in the liquids. It should

have the consistency of toothpaste.

Put it in a breadpan, let rise in a warm oven (turn on the oven, then turn it

off when it is warm). Let it rise. After it is risen, turn on the heat to 350

and bake it (don't move the bread, it is fragile at that stage).

You can also add a couple of tsp of baking powder and DON'T let it rise -- put

the yeast in for flavor and le the baking powder do the work.

When it is cool, slice it with a slicer (I use a meat slicer, I'm no good at

even slices) and freeze it (I put paper between the slices). Homemade bread goes

moldy really fast!

The bread will be really yellow with all those eggs, but everyone likes the

eggy flavor. If you don't want it yellow, just use the whites.

-- Heidi

>Heidi,

>I would like to hear about your GF bread that you are making. I have tried

making natural rise sourdough, I was trying to perfect it when we moved and we

were in limbo for 6 weeks and I still haven't unpacked enough to try making

much, but I am interested in making all our bread instead of buying.

>

>Michele

[Guest guest]

--- In , <karenr@c...>

wrote:

>

> I was reading something recently about the L-theanine content of

green tea,

> which apparently mitigates the effect of the small amount of

caffeine, and

> has a net calming effect. I've taken theanine as a supplement, and

it does

> have a very subtle calming effect.

>

> -

That makes sense, and I've seen a lot of anecdotal evidence

that tea, especially green tea, has a less jarring effect on

the nerves than coffee or chocolate. I don't like coffee,

but have drunk it a few times in my life, and each time I

was climbing the walls for hours afterward. Green tea seems

to bring a feeling of energy, but yet has a calming and soothing

effect as well.

[Guest guest]

--- Anton <bwp@...> wrote: > > of

course the range of calorie intakes, CR or

> otherwise, depends on

> voluntary activity, muscle mass, and size. there's

> a huge range of

> CR intakes, and there are plenty of people well

> beyond 2000 calories,

> people who exercise a lot and such. at 5'9 " , 132

> lbs, i take in

> about 1700/day.

>

WoW!! , that sounds like soooo little to me!

I am 5ft2, female, and 120lbs. I don't work out. I

consume around 2000 cals per day. I carry a little

extra fat around my middle which is largely due to

bloating caused by endometriosis/ovarian cyst. I

would starve on 1700 cals per day

Jo

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