Re: Strength Testing Technology

[Guest guest]

kvick15@... wrote:

>

> My question, why aren't more coaches in this country taking advantage

> of this type of technology. For both testing and training it allows

> us as coaches to get rid of some guesswork on target individual needs

> much quicker.

I'd say because most coaches don't know they exist. Part of this is the

fault of the manufacturers, part due to the researchers, and part due to

the coaches themselves. For example, at this years NSCA conference,

there were no such devices like the FiTROdyne in the exhibit hall. The

same was true at this year's ACSM.

Similarly, the number of people attending the free communications

session at the NSCA conference was minimal. Those who didn't attend

missed presentations on the reliabililty of a computer-interfaced

FiTROdyne system and the findings of a study using this system. Lastly,

most researchers never perform reliability and validity analyses on new

technology, and even less is presented and/or published, thus this

technology remains hidden from most possible users.

In reality, this technology is very simple, borrowing basic devices from

the mechanical engineering field. Dr Everett Harman (IIRC) wrote an

interesting chapter in a book edited by Maud and a few years ago,

describing such technology.

Loren Chiu

Graduate Assistant

Exercise Biochemistry Laboratory

Human Performance Laboratories

The University of Memphis

[Guest guest]

> kvick15@... wrote:

> >

> > My question, why aren't more coaches in this country taking advantage

> > of this type of technology. For both testing and training it allows

> > us as coaches to get rid of some guesswork on target individual needs

> > much quicker.

>

> I'd say because most coaches don't know they exist. Part of this is the

> fault of the manufacturers, part due to the researchers, and part due to

> the coaches themselves. For example, at this years NSCA conference,

> there were no such devices like the FiTROdyne in the exhibit hall. The

> same was true at this year's ACSM.

>

> Similarly, the number of people attending the free communications

> session at the NSCA conference was minimal. Those who didn't attend

> missed presentations on the reliabililty of a computer-interfaced

> FiTROdyne system and the findings of a study using this system. Lastly,

> most researchers never perform reliability and validity analyses on new

> technology, and even less is presented and/or published, thus this

> technology remains hidden from most possible users.

>

> In reality, this technology is very simple, borrowing basic devices from

> the mechanical engineering field. Dr Everett Harman (IIRC) wrote an

> interesting chapter in a book edited by Maud and a few years ago,

> describing such technology.

Its very dificult to acquire these and apply them in a situation where the

ratio of strength coaches to athletes is around 1:60+. Even if we had them I

don't think the sport coaches would care, they wouldn't understand and that

makes them look bad...You can't have that happen or you will be working

somewhere else.

Dennis Kline

Manager, Strength Centers/Ass't Track Coach

1725 State St.

158 Hall

La Crosse WI, 54601 USA

Phone (608) 785-6533

Fax (608) 785-6537

e-mail: kline.denn@...

Visit our web page: http://www.uwlax.edu/strengthcenter/

> kvick15@... wrote:

> >

> > My question, why aren't more coaches in this country taking advantage

> > of this type of technology. For both testing and training it allows

> > us as coaches to get rid of some guesswork on target individual needs

> > much quicker.

>

> I'd say because most coaches don't know they exist. Part of this is the

> fault of the manufacturers, part due to the researchers, and part due to

> the coaches themselves. For example, at this years NSCA conference,

> there were no such devices like the FiTROdyne in the exhibit hall. The

> same was true at this year's ACSM.

>

> Similarly, the number of people attending the free communications

> session at the NSCA conference was minimal. Those who didn't attend

> missed presentations on the reliabililty of a computer-interfaced

> FiTROdyne system and the findings of a study using this system. Lastly,

> most researchers never perform reliability and validity analyses on new

> technology, and even less is presented and/or published, thus this

> technology remains hidden from most possible users.

>

> In reality, this technology is very simple, borrowing basic devices from

> the mechanical engineering field. Dr Everett Harman (IIRC) wrote an

> interesting chapter in a book edited by Maud and a few years ago,

> describing such technology.

>

> Loren Chiu

> Graduate Assistant

> Exercise Biochemistry Laboratory

> Human Performance Laboratories

> The University of Memphis

>

>

> Modify or cancel your subscription here:

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> mygroups

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>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> > Ken Vick wrote:

> > >

> > > My question, why aren't more coaches in this country taking

advantage

> > > of this type of technology. For both testing and training it

allows

> > > us as coaches to get rid of some guesswork on target individual

needs

> > > much quicker.

Loren Chiu wrote:

> > I'd say because most coaches don't know they exist. Part of this

is the

> > fault of the manufacturers, part due to the researchers, and part

due to

> > the coaches themselves.

For example, at this years NSCA conference,

> > there were no such devices like the FiTROdyne in the exhibit

hall. The

> > same was true at this year's ACSM.

*** While I agree with you on this n part, I am more dissappointed

that there aren't more coaches looking to improve their methods.

Many reading this list won't fall into that category, because they

are on it to continue learning. However, I believe most strength

coaches are quite comfortable in their model of training and have no

interest in looking elsewhere. After all, that takes work.

> >

> > Similarly, the number of people attending the free communications

> > session at the NSCA conference was minimal. Those who didn't

attend

> > missed presentations on the reliabililty of a computer-interfaced

> > FiTROdyne system and the findings of a study using this system.

Lastly,

> > most researchers never perform reliability and validity analyses

on new

> > technology, and even less is presented and/or published, thus this

> > technology remains hidden from most possible users.

*** newton had a very good presentation, a main session, last

year that included much about strength testing and training

using " new " technologies. Several people I sat in the session with

thought it was good, yet did not have any inclination to look at

applying these methods further.

I think this again has to do with many people looking for things that

only affirm what they already believe. We have so many " camps " of

training methodology. I'm always excited when we see people truly

looking at new ideas and questioning the accepted.

Dennis Kline wrote:

> Its very dificult to acquire these and apply them in a situation

where the

> ratio of strength coaches to athletes is around 1:60+. Even if we

had them I

> don't think the sport coaches would care, they wouldn't understand

and that

> makes them look bad...You can't have that happen or you will be

working

> somewhere else.

>

****This is of course a key issue. With a 1:60 ratio at the same

time, its a challenge to do anything. I agree that the benefits of

using such a system may be outweighed by the time whichich is so

precious at that point.

Yet, could you use such a system where you could put it on one

platform and have different athletes using it on different days.

They wouldn't have the benefits of instant feedback but would be

getting some measuring stick every few weeks. Over the course of a

year this is a reasonable amount of feedback.

I guess the bigger thing is that it is feedback beyond simply weight

lifted or reps. These are important and valuable as we know, but

don't we need to be moving towards more power and rate of force

development in many cases?

I think that is part of the problem. If we are focused only on

weight lifted and size, then the current system are adequate. If we

want to focus on the qualities that translate to imroving

performance, we probably need more than we have now.

Ken Vick

The Performance Edge

Manhattan Beach, CA USA

[Guest guest]

kvick15@... wrote:

>

> *** While I agree with you on this n part, I am more dissappointed

> that there aren't more coaches looking to improve their methods.

> Many reading this list won't fall into that category, because they

> are on it to continue learning. However, I believe most strength

> coaches are quite comfortable in their model of training and have no

> interest in looking elsewhere. After all, that takes work.

I completely agree. As I mention below, most of the people attending

the free communications sessions were the " old faithful. " In many

instances, these people were also presenting research. The free

communications sessions are an extremely valuable forum as it presents

new data and ideas and allows for communication with the researchers and

the audience. Unfortunately, based on the attendence, it would appear

that few conference attendees were aware that the sessions were being

held, and if they were, didn't care.

I worte:

> > > Similarly, the number of people attending the free communications

> > > session at the NSCA conference was minimal. Those who didn't attend

> > > missed presentations on the reliabililty of a computer-interfaced

> > > FiTROdyne system and the findings of a study using this system.

> > > Lastly, most researchers never perform reliability and validity analyses

> > > on new technology, and even less is presented and/or published, thus this

> > > technology remains hidden from most possible users.

>

Ken Vick wrote:

> *** newton had a very good presentation, a main session, last

> year that included much about strength testing and training

> using " new " technologies. Several people I sat in the session with

> thought it was good, yet did not have any inclination to look at

> applying these methods further.

I enjoyed Newton's presentation last year as well. Bill Kraemer also

shared some of their ideas with us regarding training for power when he

visited us in October. One problem is that Newton and Greg have

done such a tremendous job promoting their ballistic measurement system

(chiefly through research), that few other systems are known and used.

The more well known units may also be cost prohibitive, and if they are

computer-interfaced (as the BMS is), they may not be very user friendly

in the weight room. As far as I know, the only unit that has a handheld

or simple display model is the FiTROdyne.

Loren Chiu

Graduate Assistant

Exercise Biochemistry Laboratory

Human Performance Laboratories

The University of Memphis

[Guest guest]

Ken, Loren and

These types of " power meters " (i.e. attaching a string to a barbell to

calculate velocity) have been around for years. When I was an undergraduate

physical education student, one of my professors (ph Mastropaolo, Ph.D.)

built one in the 70s.

Later, when I did my thesis, I needed such a device. It was built by a

engineering student and was used for his masters thesis as well. It is

probably still sitting in the biomechanics lab at CSULB. It utilized a

retractable spool which rotated a clear optical disc. The disc had 180 dark

stripes around its outer edge at regular intervals. Velocity was

calculated using an infrared beam which was projected through the outer edge

of the disc at a 90 degree angle. Velocity (and acceleration) was

calculated from the light beam interruptions. In addition to measuring

velocity, the device had a built in auditory feedback mechanism which

emitted a 'tone' corresponding to the change in velocity. In other words,

if velocity was held constant a 'monotone' was emitted and as bar velocity

increased, the 'pitch' of the tone increased to a higher level.

For my project, I was interested to see if lifting technique (and ultimately

knee joint torque's) could be modified via audio feedback during a

relatively slow lifting (actually lowering) movement. I looked at the

eccentric portion of the back squat exercise. Subjects were instructed to

maintain a constant velocity during descent both while receiving feedback

(audio tone) and without feedback. Interestingly, there were significant

differences in the subject's ability to control descent velocity between the

conditions (feedback vs. no feedback), but this didn't have a significant

influence on knee joint torque.

Another feature that was built into the device was a velocity 'threshold'

adjustment. In other words, the device could be preset not to sound until a

specified velocity was reached. I used to go into the lab and do snatch and

clean pulls using this to maintain high pulling quality ( Staley's

post - What is Quality?).

Of course, this method of assessing rep 'quality' is not without problems.

For example, if you're trying to measure bar velocity by attaching the

tether to one end, that value will be inaccurate if there is any rotation of

the bar about its center of mass. Also, you're making a BIG assumption that

the bar is traveling in a perfectly vertical trajectory (i.e. no horizontal

work being done). Finally, if you're using one of these things to calculate

power you're only assessing the power done on the bar!! What about the work

being done on the lifter's center of mass!!?? It's a nice idea, but it's not

without problems and big assumptions.

So Ken, I hope you're not lumping me into that group of strength coaches you

mentioned in your last post I was researching this stuff when you were

still in high school

'The Effect of Audio Feedback on Technique in the Squat Exercise'

M. Burkhardt - Masters Thesis

California State University, Long Beach

Completed May, 1993

Burkhardt

Strength and Conditioning Coach

UC Irvine

[Guest guest]

Burkhardt wrote:

>

> Later, when I did my thesis, I needed such a device. It was built by a

> engineering student and was used for his masters thesis as well. It is

> probably still sitting in the biomechanics lab at CSULB. It utilized a

> retractable spool which rotated a clear optical disc. The disc had 180 dark

> stripes around it's outer edge at regular intervals. Velocity was

> calculated using an infrared beam which was projected through the outer edge

> of the disc at a 90 degree angle. Velocity (and acceleration) was

> calculated from the light beam interruptions. In addition to measuring

> velocity, the device had a built in auditory feedback mechanism which

> emitted a 'tone' corresponding to the change in velocity. In other words,

> if velocity was held constant a 'monotone' was emitted and as bar velocity

> increased, the 'pitch' of the tone increased to a higher level.

This description sounds like a another testing tool that has been in use

for some time: the Wingate machine. When I took our FiTROdyne unit

apart, the infrared velocity sensor looked exactly like a the flywheel

of a Wingate machine. I believe it's the same basic idea.

> Of course this method of assessing rep 'quality' is not without problems.

> For example, if you're trying to measure bar velocity by attaching the

> tether to one end, that value will be inaccurate if there is any rotation of

> the bar about its center of mass. Also, you're making a BIG assumption that

> the bar is traveling in a perfectly vertical trajectory (i.e. no horizontal

> work being done). Finally, if you're using one of these things to calculate

> power you're only assessing the power done on the bar!! What about the work

> being done on the lifters center of mass!!?? It's a nice idea, but it's not

> without problems and big assumptions.

Great point. I know of no published research that has addressed the

force and power of the lifter's center of mass using such devices. I

had a chance to play with a force platform simultaneously with a

computer-interfaced FiTROdyne unit a few months back. Instead of

entering just the bar mass into the computer, I entered bar mass plus

lifter's mass for a squat exercise. I found that at slow velocities,

the force readings from both devices were very close. However, at fast

velocities, the FiTROdyne overestimated force. This was likely because

the shank (or lower leg) does not move vertically substantially, thus as

force is calculated as F=m*a or F=m*dv/dt, the greater the acceleration

(or change in velocity), the greater the error. If I ever find the

time, I plan on repeating this with more subjects (previous n=2) and

also filming and digitizing the trials.

Loren Chiu

Graduate Assistant

Exercise Biochemistry Laboratory

Human Performance Laboratories

The University of Memphis

[Guest guest]

Loren Chiu wrote:

I enjoyed Newton's presentation last year as well. Bill Kraemer also

shared some of their ideas with us regarding training for power when

he visited us in October. One problem is that Newton and Greg

have done such a tremendous job promoting their ballistic measurement

system (chiefly through research), that few other systems are known

and used. The more well known units may also be cost prohibitive, and

if they are computer-interfaced (as the BMS is), they may not be very

user friendly in the weight room. As far as I know, the only unit

that has a handheld or simple display model is the FiTROdyne.

***** Do you know of any websites or other sources where I could

learn more about the available instruments (FiTROdyne, BMS, etc.)?

What do these units typically cost (ballpark), and what would you

consider a reasonable price point?

- Wayne Hill

Westborough, MA

[Guest guest]

Wayne Hill....

***** Do you know of any websites or other sources where I could

learn more about the available instruments (FiTROdyne, BMS, etc.)?

What do these units typically cost (ballpark), and what would you

consider a reasonable price point?*******

Wayne,

Newton does have a company and a web site that sells all kinds of cool

stuff. For the life of me, I can't think of the name!! I think it ends

with tronics. Ken, Loren, help us out...

Burkhardt

UC Irvine

[Guest guest]

> Wayne Hill....

>

> ***** Do you know of any websites or other sources where I could

> learn more about the available instruments (FiTROdyne, BMS, etc.)?

> What do these units typically cost (ballpark), and what would you

> consider a reasonable price point?*******

>

**** newton has a website at www.innervations.com where the

BMS can be found.

As has been pointed out there are some problems with this type of

technology. I know in my experience, some of the data that was

useful to me was not provided automatically.

I think this illustrates an important point which Mel touched on;

Blindly accepting data from a " black box " . The practitioner must

understand the science behind the technology first of all and then

secondly how to interpret it and lastly how to put it into practice.

The BMS provides for some graph analysis and analysis over adjustable

time periods which lends itself to more indepth analysis. Of course

there are still limitations in the absolute accuracy of the data.

I can often accept this from a practical standpoint at this time.

That means I want things to get better (greatly reliability and

accuracy), but there is still something there that is of value now.

Value is increased, and the effect of measurement error decreased,

when data is collected continuously through the training cycles.

This can help identify general patterns and changes. A single time

measurement is less .

We have been talking one type of device, but haven't even touched on

the use of force platforms or video systems. Some of the

emerging " closed chain " (dare I use that term) isokinetic machines

also offer very interesting diagnostic, measuring and feedback

possibilities.

Ken Vick

The Performance Edge

Manhattan Beach, CA USA

[Guest guest]

Wayne Hill wrote:

>

> ***** Do you know of any websites or other sources where I could

> learn more about the available instruments (FiTROdyne, BMS, etc.)?

> What do these units typically cost (ballpark), and what would you

> consider a reasonable price point?

Newton's BMS is available via http://www.innervations.com. I believe

the cost is about $3000US.

The FiTROdyne does not currently have a website, but I was told by the

owner of the company while at ACSM that they were working on one. The

FiTROdyne comes in three models. The computer-interfaced model costs

about $1000. The two " coaching " models (one has a small handheld LCD

screen, the other is a larger LED screen) are about $800.

Since there is some confusion on what these devices are, I'll try to

highlight the basic components and features of these units.

The BMS uses a rotary encoder (or position transducer), which is the

same device used in electrogoniometers. It also has a timing unit, thus

the software can calculate velocity and acceleration, and if mass of the

load is used, force, work and power. The original BMS (which all

published studies to date have used) was attached to a chain that was

attached to a machine (like an engines crankshaft is attached to

the camshaft). The model they now sell has a tether attached, making it

more versatile, HOWEVER, the validity/reliability data on the website is

now not applicable. I am unaware of any updated validity/reliability

data.

The " coaching " models of the FiTROdyne also use a rotary encoder. The

display only features mean velocity and mean power.

The computer-interfaced model of the FiTROdyne uses the same rotary

encoder AND has a infrared velocity sensor. Because of the second and

third order derivations of position to velocity and acceleration,

greater error is introduced, thus Dusan Hamar (the FiTROdyne

manufacturer) added the second component so that only acceleration is

derivated. The device typically used to measure acceleration is an

accelerometer, however, this device is sensitive to shock and vibration,

thus complicating it's use. Both this model and the BMS provide

displacement vs. time, velocity vs. time, force vs. time, and power vs.

time data. Thus instantaneous and mean values can be calculated at any

point or interval (limited only by the sampling frequency).

There are other such systems available, and if one has access to an

analog-digital board and appropriate software, they could make their own

quite easily and also add additional elements (eg. EMG, force platform,

???), although this scenario is most likely in a research lab and not a

weight room.

Loren Chiu

Graduate Assistant

Exercise Biochemistry Laboratory

Human Performance Laboratories

The University of Memphis

[Guest guest]

> Wayne Hill....

>

> ***** Do you know of any websites or other sources where I could

> learn more about the available instruments (FiTROdyne, BMS, etc.)?

> What do these units typically cost (ballpark), and what would you

> consider a reasonable price point?*******

Ken Vick wrote:

newton has a website at www.innervations.com where the

BMS can be found.

***** That's a start. Thanks.

As has been pointed out there are some problems with this type of

technology. I know in my experience, some of the data that was useful

to me was not provided automatically.

***** Right. I have in mind a very flexible system.

- Wayne Hill

Westborough, MA

[Guest guest]

Loren Chiu <lchiu@m...> wrote:

Wayne Hill wrote:

> > Do you know of any websites or other sources where I could

> > learn more about the available instruments (FiTROdyne, BMS, etc.)?

> > What do these units typically cost (ballpark), and what would you

> > consider a reasonable price point?

Great equipment is Muscle Lab produced by Ergotest:

http://www.ergotest.com

It is portable, easy to use and has many sensors synchronised (EMG,

angle, accelerometer, force plate...and so)

There is also a very affordable portable version which has been

validated (Ergopower) in a couple of papers (Bosco et al., 1995; and

Rahmani et al., 2000).

You should contact Ing. Ole Olsen directly at Ergotest.

Marco Cardinale

Italy

[Guest guest]

Wayne Hill wrote:

>

> ***** Do you know of any websites or other sources where I could

> learn more about the available instruments (FiTROdyne, BMS, etc.)?

> What do these units typically cost (ballpark), and what would you

> consider a reasonable price point?

Loren Chiu wrote:

Newton's BMS is available via http://www.innervations.com. I believe

the cost is about $3000US. The FiTROdyne does not currently have a

website, but I was told by the owner of the company while at ACSM that

they were working on one. The FiTROdyne comes in three models. The

computer-interfaced model costs about $1000. The two " coaching "

models (one has a small handheld LCD screen, the other is a larger LED

screen) are about $800.

Since there is some confusion on what these devices are, I'll try to

highlight the basic components and features of these units.

<snip>

***** Thanks for the clarification.

Since the FITROdyne only outputs average velocity and power, can

someone tell me why they need to estimate acceleration?

As someone who has used accelerometers in a variety of high-stress

environments (zero-g flight, in machining operations, in helicopters

(would you believe 500g rms acceleration?), and in coal-fired power

plants, I'd opine that the only real issue wrt their use is cost.

There are some very inexpensive accelerometers these days (e.g., used

in automotive applications), but whether a suitably inexpensive unit

exists that is sensitive to absolute acceleration (rather than

behaviors above some non-zero frequency) is another question.

As an indication of what is possible at a price point, list members

might look at the G-Tech, an accelerometer-based automotive

performance instrument that is mass-marketed at $140:

http://www.gtechpro.com/

Of course, there's probably no comparison between the fitness and

automotive market sizes, but this is indicative of what is possible.

I'll continue to scratch my head.

- Wayne Hill

Westborough, MA

[Guest guest]

Wayne Hill wrote:

>

> ***** Thanks for the clarification.

>

> Since the FITROdyne only outputs average velocity and power, can

> someone tell me why they need to estimate acceleration?

>

The two " coaching " models only give mean velocity and power. The

computer-interfaced model is similar to the BMS in that it gives

displacement, velocity, acceleration, force and power data during the

entire lift. Thus, the computer model provides more information than

the " coaching " models.

Regarding accelerometers, they are being used in the " industry. " The

most common use is as a measure of caloric expenditure during various

activities (eg. running, walking, canoeing, etc.) I have also seen some

papers use accelerometers to measure mechanomyography (muscle

vibrations).

Loren Chiu

Graduate Assistant

Exercise Biochemistry Laboratory

Human Performance Laboratories

The University of Memphis

[Guest guest]

I have a Power Point file regarding a strength/power testing machine

used mostly by top soccer teams in Italy.

Those who are interested can e.mail me and I will send it to them.

Best,

Carlo Buzzichelli

Siena, Italy

[Guest guest]

Dear Carlo,

I work for the European champion rugby union team (Leicester tigers) as strength

and conditioning coach

and would be interested to look at the equipment you have mentioned.

[Carlo - why don't you simply upload this material in our " Files " section? Then

anyone who would care

to read it can do so. Mel Siff]

Many thanks

Pete Atkinson

Leicester, UK

Carlo Buzzichelli wrote:

> I have a Power Point file regarding a strength/power testing machine

>used mostly by top soccer teams in Italy.

>Those who are interested can e.mail me and I will send it to them.

[Guest guest]

Pete Atkinson wrote:

I work for the European champion rugby union team (Leicester tigers)

as strength and conditioning coach and would be interested to look at

the equipment you have mentioned.

[Carlo - why don't you simply upload this material in our " Files "

section? Then anyone who would care to read it can do so. Mel Siff]

He did. The file name is Dyna%20inglese3.ppt. I can't reach the

archives right now to check that it's still there (?!), but it was

there several days ago.

[That file is there and I managed to download it, but my version of PowerPoint

(98)

could not open it. Carlo - any suggestions? Mel Siff]

Wayne Hill

Westborough, MA

[Guest guest]

Mel Siff wrote:

> That file is there and I managed to download it, but my version of

> PowerPoint (98) could not open it. Carlo - any suggestions?

I've got the file on my machine. I saved it as a PDF file,

Dynabiopsy.pdf, and uploaded it to the Files section of the

Supertraining site. The only problems with this file are that it's

twice as big as the original and appears sideways on my screen in

Acrobat. You can use Acrobat's 'rotate view' button to rotate the

image to appear correctly.

Wayne Hill

Westborough, MA

[Guest guest]

Pete,

The file is now uploadable from the file section of the site.

If you are interested in the machine and wish to buy it, I can come

and explain how to interpret the various data it gives. I especially

like the intermuscular coordination data, whereas most coaches like

the graph of the forces at the joints and the dynamic hamstring

flexibility one.

This file used to work in my other computer. I am waiting for the

Power Point software, so I can't tell if it requires an updated

edition or it's the file itself which is corrupt.

Best,

Carlo Buzzichelli

Sienna, Italy

--------------

Pete Atkinson <pete.acko@t... > wrote:

> Dear Carlo,

>

> I work for the European champion rugby union team (Leicester

tigers) as strength and conditioning coach

> and would be interested to look at the equipment you have mentioned.

>

> [Carlo - why don't you simply upload this material in our " Files "

section? Then anyone who would care

> to read it can do so. Mel Siff]

[Guest guest]

If has a newer version powerpoint he may need to save it to a older version

which would be compatible to the version that you are using.

Clint Bateman

Houston Tx

Re: Strength Testing Technology

Pete Atkinson wrote:

I work for the European champion rugby union team (Leicester tigers)

as strength and conditioning coach and would be interested to look at

the equipment you have mentioned.

[Carlo - why don't you simply upload this material in our " Files "

section? Then anyone who would care to read it can do so. Mel Siff]

He did. The file name is Dyna%20inglese3.ppt. I can't reach the

archives right now to check that it's still there (?!), but it was

there several days ago.

[That file is there and I managed to download it, but my version of

PowerPoint (98)

could not open it. Carlo - any suggestions? Mel Siff]

Wayne Hill

Westborough, MA

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