RE: FW: [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology

[Guest guest]

Hi , As you know, I’ve taught NMT, a method of psychoenergetic medicine, for about 10 years now. From time to time I’ve made posts about NMT here on the forum. Some chiropractors find NMT and other forms of consciousness based informational medicine of interest and some just can’t relate to interventions that are non-physical/mechanical. It seems obvious that every low or non-force chiropractic technique must certainly reflect the influence, probably a large influence, of the intention of the practitioner. I don’t think attempts to explain things like AK or the testing procedure in Activator method by a physical neurological model are very convincing. Instead, it seems clear that all doctor-patient interactions involve an influence of conscious intention, even when the doctor isn’t aware of it or isn’t attempting to use conscious intention in a structured way, and that methods which exploit the potential of conscious intention by highly structured protocols provide the opportunity for much greater clinical influence. I’ve attached a recent article by Nisha J. Manek, MD of the Mayo Clinic titled Symmetry States of the Physical Space: An Expanded Reference Frame for UnderstandingHuman Consciousness. It was published in a recent Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine and offers a well documented discussion of the physics of consciousness medicine. Other great sources of information are found at www.tiller.org the website of Tiller, Ph.D. professor emeritus of physics from Stanford. Check out his whitepapers on the site. Another great place to find a wealth of information on psychoenergetic medicine is from Rupert Sheldrake, Ph.D. an Oxford biologist and prolific author, www.sheldrake.org Healing is never an either/or proposition. Understanding the role of consciousness, even in the most apparently mechanistic of practices, and the opportunity to find and use more structured and hence more powerful methods of conscious intention to promote healing is something we should all be mindful of. D.D. and B.J. understood it. It’s a natural complement to structural chiropractic care. For those interested in improving the clinical results in your chiropractic practice, consider joining me in the new NMT Universal Care seminars, an easier, quicker, and more powerful protocol that I have been teaching in the U.S. and Mexico for the past year and that I will be teaching to an international group of practitioners in Rome, Italy February 10, 11, and 12. I’ll be posting the 2012 NMT seminar schedule in the next week or so on the NMT website, www.nmt.md , I really appreciate your efforts to awaken readers here to the role of consciousness in healing through meditation and other routes. S. Feinberg, D.C. From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of SearsSent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:56 PMcaughlindrc@...Cc: vsaboe Saboe; Subject: Re: FW: [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology (video) Following-up on how this notion of " curing the mind " as a healthcare paradigm underlying wellness, here's a quick summary of a new book from Dharma Singh Khalsa, MD, pioneer in integrative medicine, founder and Med Dir of Alzheimer's Prevention Foundation International, author of " Meditation as Medicine " (among other books, etc) which remains the definitive authority on the application of meditation on human wellness. It's called " The New Golden Rules. " He lists four steps to spiritual health as a requirement for good physical health: 1) Discover the miracle of your Divinity: serve others and be with people who support your spiritual growth; 2) Listen attentively to the still, small voice within your soul and discover God's will for you; 3) Work to dissolve your blocks to spiritual growth - whether they be anger, grief, or fear - and become your true self; 4) See others as yourself so that you can see God in all. In order to accomplish these steps, one must practice living in the moment, so as to understand the internal effects of our choices. Others in the healing professions are involved in chiropractic science and philosophy, if they but knew. Sears, DC, IAYT1218 NW 21st AvePortland, Oregon 97209v: 503-225-0255f: 503-525-6902www.docbones.com On Nov 19, 2011, at 12:49 PM, caughlindrc@... wrote:Very well put Dr SearsConnected by DROID on Verizon Wireless [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology (video) Dr. Carrick slays the old subluxation dragon with his scientificand philosophical swords.Standing behind him is an army of conceptual disentanglementtroops, discarding the cartesian dualism between mind and body.After hearing his lecture, will you agree that the old definitionof subluxation is 'nonsense'?Here's the video: http://vimeo.com/29147713-- Andre A. Broussard, D.C.Broussard Clinic of Chiropractic & Acupuncture6701 Aberdeen Avenue, Suite 7Lubbock, Texas 79424www.CajunChiro.netwww.DrAndreBroussardBlog.comwww.AndreBroussardDC.com ______________________________________________________ACA-Members Mailing ListTo post to the list: ACA-members@...List policyNOTE: The ACA does not accept requests/inquiries through the listserv. The listserv is for peer-to-peer collaboration only. If you have an insurance-related question/concern you wish to bring to the attention of the ACA, please emailinsinfo@...Technical questions or to request to be removed from the list, please contact dmillard@...

1 of 1 File(s)

Symmetry states of physical space.pdf

[Guest guest]

There is an article on placebos and the Harvard University Program in Placebo Studies headed by acupuncturist Ted Kaptchuk in the December 12, 2011 issue of the New Yorker.Ron KibertFrom: " S Feinberg, DC" <feinberg@...>"Lyle Zurflu" <drzurflu@...>Cc: Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 12:31:32 PMSubject: RE: FW: [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology

Thought I’d share a response to a doc who wrote back to my private email address, but shield his name. Excellent post Les. I think acupuncture falls into the same realm. NPR had a great show on the role of placebo in medicine about a year ago. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find it in the archives? From an OregonDC Hi Doc, Absolutely right, acupuncture does! Remember the article that was posted a while ago during the dry needling discussions about the comparison for low back pain of acupuncture needling of meridian points to dry needling of points unrelated to the acupuncture model? Results were nearly identical, I think about 65% efficacy for both. How can that be if acupuncture is really all about the model acupuncturists propose? And, how else to explain that similar results can be obtained with traditional acupuncture needling, non-piercing tei-shin needling, acupressure, and electro-stimulation of acupuncture points? Arguments from acupuncturists that their method is “actual†because their points have been found to correspond to underlying fascial structures is hardly a proof that the results they get are for the reason they propose. Add to that the enormous difference in clinical efficacy between one acupuncturist and another using the same points for the same problem and you see that there must be something else going on. Years ago I created an acupuncture and Chinese medicine NMT clinical pathway. A lot of the acupuncturists who practice NMT were doubtful that the structured intention of an NMT pathway written to include the principles of acupuncture could produce the same results as actual use of needling. Within a couple months of releasing that pathway many of those same acupuncturists said that their clinical results using that pathway and no needling at all were equivalent or superior to needling. Many of them now 6 or so years later, still don’t use needling or use it much less. Placebo is so cool. It’s like the universe dropped a winning lottery ticket down our chimney (hope there’s no chestnuts on an open fire). For so long there has been this attitude toward placebo that it was some kooky reaction people had to a medically meaningless intervention event or action. Something that was “just in the mindâ€. Better, I think, to view placebo as any event or action that induces the mind-body to modify its awareness of its internal conditions, the external challenges it faces, and the availability and application of unrealized innate healing resources. What happens with placebos of any type is the mind-body comes to heal itself in a way that it could have done all along, but did not have the awareness to implement. That’s it in a nutshell. Everything else is method, and some methods work better than sugar pills, some a whole lot better and more predictably and repeatably. I’ll give you a really cool example of placebo and the non-locality of psychoenergetic medicine. I have a patient in Miami who is a mid-60’s woman with advanced scleroderma. She has had lots of problems. 6 months ago she contacted me for a remote NMT session because of severe neck pain and stiffness. She had a bunch of chiropractic care and PT from her local providers that made virtually no difference. I used the NMT Sensory-Motor Pathway structured around the neurology of pain and by the end of the 30 minute session she had zero pain and full ROM had returned to the neck. She has had no return of neck pain, however, last week she contacted me because the scleroderma had flared and her hands and feet were very stiff and painful. She had seen her rheumatologist and since the meds she had been on were not working he proposed some new med (starts with an R, not Remicaid, uuuuhhhh???) that was so dangerous he couldn’t give it to her without submitting the proposal to his department committee’s oversight. I did a remote NMT session for her using the Affective States Pathway that is structured around the issue of pathologically anchored emotion (emotion sets the physiological tone of the body – that’s what emotions are for) and by the time we finished the session her 7/10 pain that had been resistant to the strongest of scleroderma medications was 3/10. Her plan is to tell her doctor she doesn’t want the new and dangerous medication and to continue with some further NMT. Placebo, great stuff! S. Feinberg, D.C. From: " S Feinberg, DC" <feinberg@...>' Sears' <dm.bones@...> Cc: Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:17 AMSubject: RE: FW: [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology [1 Attachment] [Attachment(s) from S Feinberg, DC included below] Hi , As you know, I’ve taught NMT, a method of psychoenergetic medicine, for about 10 years now. From time to time I’ve made posts about NMT here on the forum. Some chiropractors find NMT and other forms of consciousness based informational medicine of interest and some just can’t relate to interventions that are non-physical/mechanical. It seems obvious that every low or non-force chiropractic technique must certainly reflect the influence, probably a large influence, of the intention of the practitioner. I don’t think attempts to explain things like AK or the testing procedure in Activator method by a physical neurological model are very convincing. Instead, it seems clear that all doctor-patient interactions involve an influence of conscious intention, even when the doctor isn’t aware of it or isn’t attempting to use conscious intention in a structured way, and that methods which exploit the potential of conscious intention by highly structured protocols provide the opportunity for much greater clinical influence. I’ve attached a recent article by Nisha J. Manek, MD of the Mayo Clinic titled Symmetry States of the Physical Space: An Expanded Reference Frame for UnderstandingHuman Consciousness. It was published in a recent Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine and offers a well documented discussion of the physics of consciousness medicine. Other great sources of information are found at www.tiller.org the website of Tiller, Ph.D. professor emeritus of physics from Stanford. Check out his whitepapers on the site. Another great place to find a wealth of information on psychoenergetic medicine is from Rupert Sheldrake, Ph.D. an Oxford biologist and prolific author, www.sheldrake.org Healing is never an either/or proposition. Understanding the role of consciousness, even in the most apparently mechanistic of practices, and the opportunity to find and use more structured and hence more powerful methods of conscious intention to promote healing is something we should all be mindful of. D.D. and B.J. understood it. It’s a natural complement to structural chiropractic care. For those interested in improving the clinical results in your chiropractic practice, consider joining me in the new NMT Universal Care seminars, an easier, quicker, and more powerful protocol that I have been teaching in the U.S. and Mexico for the past year and that I will be teaching to an international group of practitioners in Rome, Italy February 10, 11, and 12. I’ll be posting the 2012 NMT seminar schedule in the next week or so on the NMT website, www.nmt.md , I really appreciate your efforts to awaken readers here to the role of consciousness in healing through meditation and other routes. S. Feinberg, D.C. From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of SearsSent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:56 PMcaughlindrc@...Cc: vsaboe Saboe; Subject: Re: FW: [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology (video) Following-up on how this notion of "curing the mind" as a healthcare paradigm underlying wellness, here's a quick summary of a new book from Dharma Singh Khalsa, MD, pioneer in integrative medicine, founder and Med Dir of Alzheimer's Prevention Foundation International, author of "Meditation as Medicine" (among other books, etc) which remains the definitive authority on the application of meditation on human wellness. It's called "The New Golden Rules." He lists four steps to spiritual health as a requirement for good physical health: 1) Discover the miracle of your Divinity: serve others and be with people who support your spiritual growth; 2) Listen attentively to the still, small voice within your soul and discover God's will for you; 3) Work to dissolve your blocks to spiritual growth - whether they be anger, grief, or fear - and become your true self; 4) See others as yourself so that you can see God in all. In order to accomplish these steps, one must practice living in the moment, so as to understand the internal effects of our choices. Others in the healing professions are involved in chiropractic science and philosophy, if they but knew. Sears, DC, IAYT1218 NW 21st AvePortland, Oregon 97209v: 503-225-0255f: 503-525-6902www.docbones.com On Nov 19, 2011, at 12:49 PM, caughlindrc@... wrote: Very well put Dr SearsConnected by DROID on Verizon Wireless [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology (video) Dr. Carrick slays the old subluxation dragon with his scientificand philosophical swords.Standing behind him is an army of conceptual disentanglementtroops, discarding the cartesian dualism between mind and body.After hearing his lecture, will you agree that the old definitionof subluxation is 'nonsense'?Here's the video: http://vimeo.com/29147713-- Andre A. Broussard, D.C.Broussard Clinic of Chiropractic & Acupuncture6701 Aberdeen Avenue, Suite 7Lubbock, Texas 79424www.CajunChiro.netwww.DrAndreBroussardBlog.comwww.AndreBroussardDC.com ______________________________________________________ACA-Members Mailing ListTo post to the list: ACA-members@...List policyNOTE: The ACA does not accept requests/inquiries through the listserv. The listserv is for peer-to-peer collaboration only. If you have an insurance-related question/concern you wish to bring to the attention of the ACA, please emailinsinfo@...Technical questions or to request to be removed from the list, please contact dmillard@...

[Guest guest]

Sounds like a FASCINATING conversation! I wanna listen it.....! SunnySunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7CEugene, Oregon, 97401541- 654-0850; Fx; 541- 654-0834www.drsunnykierstyn.com feinberg@...; dm.bones@...CC: From: vsaboe@...Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 16:01:55 -0800Subject: RE: FW: [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology

HI Les Colleagues, I have been attempting to following and research which amounts to scanning white papers by Dr. Tiller, went through Nisha Manek’s article you attached and scanned stuff by DR. Rupert…even Sheldrake review briefly a tick for tat exchange by I think it was Tiller and a fellow on something called “skeptoid.” As you know some recent buzzwords in health care reform here in Oregon we hear a lot about are “patient centered - evidence based interventions” and “value-based care” getting the best bang for our limited dollars by only paying for interventions that have been shown to be effective by reasonably “strong” evidence and to not pay for expensive interventions when there is a less expensive alternative etc., etc. As you also know the Governor just appointed by to the new and very strategic “Health Evidence Review Commission” with our charge being to prioritize what conditions will be covered and which evidence based interventions will be paid for and to produced evidence based guidelines. As per the latter I’ve now completed written responses to Oregon’s draft “Low Back Pain Guidelines,” “Advance Imaging Guidelines,” and most recently the “Percutaneous Interventions Guidelines.” So Les and others I’m attempting to get my head around this whole deal so I have some questions if hopes of doing that. Les, how would you classify NMT pure placebo? Impure placebo? If not these how would you classify it? One of the critics of utilizing pure and impure placebo the “placebo effect” is that placebos are both inconsistent and not lasting are you saying that the psychophysiologic effects of NMT are? After reviewing Tiller’s white paper III classical research design to validate the efficacy of psychoenergetic interventions ain’t going to work…how do we design studies to validate techs like NMT as effective? Large observational outcome based or similar designed studies….help me out here Les I’ve already told you, you have a “bigger brain” than I…. I simply don’t have the time to study this with all that is on my plate as lobbyist but will be in a very key position to facilitate the following statement from Tiller becoming a reality while serving on the Health Evidence Review Commission over the next four and likely eight years, “Both sets of practitioners need to become aware of the fact that data gathering strategies that work well for uncoupled state physics do not work well for coupled state physics and vice versa.” Ok, be kind Les…tell it to me like I’m a five year old…no worries about me-ego I am the CAM representative on this mostly “uncoupled state” commission…lol…. Thanks for any help oh great one!! Vern Saboe From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of S Feinberg, DCSent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:18 AM' Sears'Cc: Subject: RE: FW: [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology [1 Attachment] [Attachment(s) from S Feinberg, DC included below] Hi , As you know, I’ve taught NMT, a method of psychoenergetic medicine, for about 10 years now. From time to time I’ve made posts about NMT here on the forum. Some chiropractors find NMT and other forms of consciousness based informational medicine of interest and some just can’t relate to interventions that are non-physical/mechanical. It seems obvious that every low or non-force chiropractic technique must certainly reflect the influence, probably a large influence, of the intention of the practitioner. I don’t think attempts to explain things like AK or the testing procedure in Activator method by a physical neurological model are very convincing. Instead, it seems clear that all doctor-patient interactions involve an influence of conscious intention, even when the doctor isn’t aware of it or isn’t attempting to use conscious intention in a structured way, and that methods which exploit the potential of conscious intention by highly structured protocols provide the opportunity for much greater clinical influence. I’ve attached a recent article by Nisha J. Manek, MD of the Mayo Clinic titled Symmetry States of the Physical Space: An Expanded Reference Frame for UnderstandingHuman Consciousness. It was published in a recent Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine and offers a well documented discussion of the physics of consciousness medicine. Other great sources of information are found at www.tiller.org the website of Tiller, Ph.D. professor emeritus of physics from Stanford. Check out his whitepapers on the site. Another great place to find a wealth of information on psychoenergetic medicine is from Rupert Sheldrake, Ph.D. an Oxford biologist and prolific author, www.sheldrake.org Healing is never an either/or proposition. Understanding the role of consciousness, even in the most apparently mechanistic of practices, and the opportunity to find and use more structured and hence more powerful methods of conscious intention to promote healing is something we should all be mindful of. D.D. and B.J. understood it. It’s a natural complement to structural chiropractic care. For those interested in improving the clinical results in your chiropractic practice, consider joining me in the new NMT Universal Care seminars, an easier, quicker, and more powerful protocol that I have been teaching in the U.S. and Mexico for the past year and that I will be teaching to an international group of practitioners in Rome, Italy February 10, 11, and 12. I’ll be posting the 2012 NMT seminar schedule in the next week or so on the NMT website, www.nmt.md , I really appreciate your efforts to awaken readers here to the role of consciousness in healing through meditation and other routes. S. Feinberg, D.C. From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of SearsSent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:56 PMcaughlindrc@...Cc: vsaboe Saboe; Subject: Re: FW: [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology (video) Following-up on how this notion of "curing the mind" as a healthcare paradigm underlying wellness, here's a quick summary of a new book from Dharma Singh Khalsa, MD, pioneer in integrative medicine, founder and Med Dir of Alzheimer's Prevention Foundation International, author of "Meditation as Medicine" (among other books, etc) which remains the definitive authority on the application of meditation on human wellness. It's called "The New Golden Rules." He lists four steps to spiritual health as a requirement for good physical health: 1) Discover the miracle of your Divinity: serve others and be with people who support your spiritual growth; 2) Listen attentively to the still, small voice within your soul and discover God's will for you; 3) Work to dissolve your blocks to spiritual growth - whether they be anger, grief, or fear - and become your true self; 4) See others as yourself so that you can see God in all. In order to accomplish these steps, one must practice living in the moment, so as to understand the internal effects of our choices. Others in the healing professions are involved in chiropractic science and philosophy, if they but knew. Sears, DC, IAYT1218 NW 21st AvePortland, Oregon 97209v: 503-225-0255f: 503-525-6902www.docbones.com On Nov 19, 2011, at 12:49 PM, caughlindrc@... wrote:Very well put Dr SearsConnected by DROID on Verizon Wireless [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology (video) Dr. Carrick slays the old subluxation dragon with his scientificand philosophical swords.Standing behind him is an army of conceptual disentanglementtroops, discarding the cartesian dualism between mind and body.After hearing his lecture, will you agree that the old definitionof subluxation is 'nonsense'?Here's the video: http://vimeo.com/29147713-- Andre A. Broussard, D.C.Broussard Clinic of Chiropractic & Acupuncture6701 Aberdeen Avenue, Suite 7Lubbock, Texas 79424www.CajunChiro.netwww.DrAndreBroussardBlog.comwww.AndreBroussardDC.com ______________________________________________________ACA-Members Mailing ListTo post to the list: ACA-members@...List policyNOTE: The ACA does not accept requests/inquiries through the listserv. The listserv is for peer-to-peer collaboration only. If you have an insurance-related question/concern you wish to bring to the attention of the ACA, please emailinsinfo@...Technical questions or to request to be removed from the list, please contact dmillard@...

[Guest guest]

Hey Vern, “Help me out here Les I’ve already told you, you have a “bigger brain” than I” Jeez, Vern, I’ve known you for nigh on 35 years and you always told me I had a bigger butt than you (all things apparently average out over time. Ha!) Well imagine how flattered I am that we are comparing different organs. Well, maybe we should leave it at that #;^) I’ve attached an article from NIH titled, The Use Of Pure And Impure Placebo Interventions In Primary Care - A Qualitative Approach. The article discusses the idea of pure placebo in which the intervention has no known physiological effect in itself and impure placebo in which the intervention has some known physiological effect but in which there is a placebo effect – perhaps due to how the intervention is explained to the patient or some aspect of how it is delivered. The article says that most primary care providers use placebo effect and also that most don’t agree that there is such a thing as an impure placebo (Impure placebo sounds to me like something a high school kid does to induce a reluctant prospective partner to go out on a date). I agree with the majority interviewed for the article. There is no impure placebo effect, and the whole idea doesn’t make a lot of sense. What is described as impure placebo is really two things, some degree of effect directly from the intervention, and some wholly other effect that is pure placebo that occurs coincidently on top of that direct physiological effect. The article, and this is a reflection on the early state of understanding of placebo, discusses lying to the patient and the ethics of that. In other words, you give a sugar pill and tell someone it is a new and powerful drug, and there may be a placebo effect for many patients in such a situation. That aspect of the discussion presumes that placebo is always about doing something that is not of direct physiological consequence, but seems to be, e.g. the sugar pill, and that placebo necessarily brings with it the aspect of deceiving the patient for their own good – and the ethical problems that go with that. It is an unfortunate limitation to the discussion that reflects the poor understanding most physicians and researchers have of placebo. Placebo, in my definition (as the article states, there is no common agreement on even what a placebo is, so I’m comfortable with offering my own) is some intervention that induces the mind-body to change its awareness of its conditions, the challenges to homeostasis presented by the external environment or internal conditions, and to recognize and utilize previously unrealized innate capacities to heal itself. By my definition, it is not necessary to trick the patient or to provide anything that seems to the patient to be one thing but is in fact another. I would classify NMT as pure placebo. NMT is not a physical process and there is no delivery of any material orally or by any other route of administration. Instead, NMT is a system of therapeutic dialogs, each structured around accepted concepts of the physiology related to particular body processes like allergy, autoimmune inflammation, the neurology of pain, toxin elimination, etc. These are dialogs of such questions that are delivered by directed intention and the response to which is determined by muscle response testing, and corrective statements designed to create awareness of preferred physiological options to change mind-body awareness in a way that causes the mind-body to see the possibility for more profitable choices. Since the mind-body is a self-correcting system committed to homeostatic balance, when it is induced to modify its self-awareness in this way it tends to make a physiological shift away from a disease state and toward healing and wellness. Some time ago in a discussion here about NMT someone asked about informed consent for NMT and I posted my informed consent document, four pages of detailed information saying exactly what NMT is and more importantly what it is not. It is not the treatment of any disease in the medical sense of that word. Someone posted back that, wow, this was informed consent that had some teeth. So, the whole issue of ethics is out the window in the sense that no deception comes into play. We basically tell the patient that some aspect of their disease and failure to heal reflects informational disorganization or confusion in the system and we are going to use NMT as a therapeutic dialog to lead the mind-body to a different view of itself and its options to heal. Research is problematic for most psychoenergetic methods. Basically, anyone that wants to do such a study is limited to the generosity of busy practitioners who are not greatly inclined to take time from their livelihood and use practice time and resources to do unfunded research. I note the one study that I did on healing of osteonecrosis of the jaw, published in 2009 I JACM and posted here drew nary a single comment. Another study we did with NMT with autistic children reached the point of conclusion of care, collection of data, and then the psychologist/NMT practitioner heading the study got balled up and has yet to produce and submit the article, although preliminary data on the study can be found on the AutismOne website. When it comes to placebo as trickery, sugar pills and the like, I can imagine but don’t know that the effects may be of short duration. In cases like the sugar pill, the placebo effect is incidental to the intervention. With NMT, an informationally rich system designed not to trick, but to invite the mind-body to reconsider its awareness of self in very specific ways, that is not the case. I’ve been doing almost nothing else in my full time practice for the past 10 years but NMT and I can tell you that the effects are indeed long lasting. I gave an example of the woman with scleroderma who had NMT for severe neck pain unresponsive to conventional treatment and she has had virtually no neck pain or stiffness for 6 months. Will it return, maybe, but by the standards of conventional chiropractic, PT, acupuncture, or just about anything else, if it came back tomorrow that would still be an outstanding result. Another example is a woman I treated once in a NMT seminar in Las Vegas for anaphylaxis to avocado of 17 years duration. Her most recent exposure prior to that was being rushed to the hospital with her whole face swollen like a soccer ball and in respiratory distress. After a 25 minute NMT session she at half an avocado with zero reaction and the next day I saw her eating a whole bowl of guacamole by herself. Funny, I asked her for a testimonial for my website and she declined saying she wanted to see if it would last. I forgot about her until about a year and a half later and she sent me an email saying she had been eating avocado three times a week for all that time with no reaction and was now ready to state that NMT really dose work durably for allergy. Ya think? I’ve done this sort of thing about 50-60 times in seminar situations with anaphylactics and never has anyone had an adverse reaction. By the way Vern, have I told you lately that I love you? No fooling, you have been so committed for so long and the energy and product that pours out of you in support of this profession is just jaw-droppin’ inspirational. I really don’t know where the profession in Oregon would be were it not for you (yes, there is a cast of great supporting characters, but you are our Brad Pitt). Hey, do we still have that other lobbyist gal? Never heard another word about her after you were ambushed some time ago. Keep doing that thang you do big guy, S. Feinberg, D.C. From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of vsaboeSent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 4:02 PM' S Feinberg, DC'; ' Sears'Cc: Subject: RE: FW: [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology HI Les Colleagues, I have been attempting to following and research which amounts to scanning white papers by Dr. Tiller, went through Nisha Manek’s article you attached and scanned stuff by DR. Rupert…even Sheldrake review briefly a tick for tat exchange by I think it was Tiller and a fellow on something called “skeptoid.” As you know some recent buzzwords in health care reform here in Oregon we hear a lot about are “patient centered - evidence based interventions” and “value-based care” getting the best bang for our limited dollars by only paying for interventions that have been shown to be effective by reasonably “strong & # 8221; evidence and to not pay for expensive interventions when there is a less expensive alternative etc., etc. As you also know the Governor just appointed by to the new and very strategic “Health Evidence Review Commission” with our charge being to prioritize what conditions will be covered and which evidence based interventions will be paid for and to produced evidence based guidelines. As per the latter I’ve now completed written responses to Oregon’s draft “Low Back Pain Guidelines,” “Advance Imaging Guidelines,” and most recently the “Percutaneous Interventions Guidelines.” So Les and others I’m attempting to get my head around this whole deal so I have some questions if hopes of doing that. Les, how w ould you classify NMT pure placebo? Impure placebo? If not these how would you classify it? One of the critics of utilizing pure and impure placebo the “placebo effect” is that placebos are both inconsistent and not lasting are you saying that the psychophysiologic effects of NMT are? After reviewing Tiller’s white paper III classical research design to validate the efficacy of psychoenergetic interventions ain’t going to work…how do we design studies to validate techs like NMT as effective? Large observational outcome based or similar designed studies….help me out here Les I’ve already told you, you have a “bigger brain” than I…. I simply don’t have the time to study this with all that is on my p late as lobbyist but will be in a very key position to facilitate the following statement from Tiller becoming a reality while serving on the Health Evidence Review Commission over the next four and likely eight years, “Both sets of practitioners need to become aware of the fact that data gathering strategies that work well for uncoupled state physics do not work well for coupled state physics and vice versa.” Ok, be kind Les…tell it to me like I’m a five year old…no worries about me-ego I am the CAM representative on this mostly “uncoupled state” commission…lol…. Thanks for any help oh great one!! Vern Saboe From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of S Feinberg, DCSent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:18 AM' Sears'Cc: Subject: RE: FW: [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology [1 Attachment] [Attachment(s) from S Feinberg, DC included below] Hi , As you know, I’ve taught NMT, a method of psychoenergetic medicine, for about 10 years now. From time to time I’ve made posts about NMT here on the forum. Some chiropractors find NMT and other forms of consciousness based informational medicine of interest and some just can’t relate to interventions that are non-physical/mechanical. It seems obvious that every low or non-force chiropractic technique must certainly reflect the influence, probably a large influence, of the intention o f the practitioner. I don’t think attempts to explain things like AK or the testing procedure in Activator method by a physical neurological model are very convincing. Instead, it seems clear that all doctor-patient interactions involve an influence of conscious intention, even when the doctor isn’t aware of it or isn’t attempting to use conscious intention in a structured way, and that methods which exploit the potential of conscious intention by highly structured protocols provide the opportunity for much greater clinical influence. I’ve attached a recent article by Nisha J. Manek, MD of the Mayo Clinic titled Symmetry States of the Physical Space: An Expanded Reference Frame for UnderstandingHuman Consciousness. It was published in a recent Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine and offers a well documented discussion of the physics of consciousness medicine. Other great sources of information are found at www.tiller.org the website of Tiller, Ph.D. professor emeritus of physics from Stanford. Check out his whitepapers on the site. Another great place to find a wealth of information on psychoenergetic medicine is from Rupert Sheldrake, Ph.D. an Oxford biologist and prolific author, www.sheldrake.org Healing is never an either/or proposition. Understanding the role of consciousness, even in the most apparently mechanis tic of practices, and the opportunity to find and use more structured and hence more powerful methods of conscious intention to promote healing is something we should all be mindful of. D.D. and B.J. understood it. It’s a natural complement to structural chiropractic care. For those interested in improving the clinical results in your chiropractic practice, consider joining me in the new NMT Universal Care seminars, an easier, quicker, and more powerful protocol that I have been teaching in the U.S. and Mexico for the past year and that I will be teaching to an international group of practitioners in Rome, Italy February 10, 11, and 12. I’ll be posting the 2012 NMT seminar schedule in the next week or so on the NMT website, www.nmt.md< span style= " font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D; " > , I really appreciate your efforts to awaken readers here to the role of consciousness in healing through meditation and other routes. S. Feinberg, D.C. From: [ma ilto: ] On Behalf Of SearsSent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:56 PMcaughlindrc@...Cc: vsaboe Saboe; Subject: Re: FW: [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology (video) Following-up on how this notion of " curing the mind " as a healthcare paradigm underlying wellness, here's a quick summary of a new book from Dharma Singh Khalsa, MD, pioneer in integrative medicine, founder and Med Dir of Alzheimer's Prevention Foundation International, author of " Meditation as Medicine " (among other books, etc) which remains the definitive authority on the application of meditation on human wellness. It's called " The New Golden Rules. " < p class= " MsoNormal " > He lists four steps to spiritual health as a requirement for good physical health: 1) Discover the miracle of your Divinity: serve others and be with people who support your spiritual growth; 2) Listen attentively to the still, small voice within your soul and discover God's will for you; 3) Work to dissolve your blocks to spiritual growth - whether they be anger, grief, or fear - and become your true self; & nb sp; 4) See others as yourself so that you can see God in all. In order to accomplish these steps, one must practice living in the moment, so as to understand the internal effects of our choices. Others in the healing professions are involved in chiropractic science and philosophy, if they but knew. Sears, DC, IAYT1218 NW 21st AvePortland, Oregon 97209v: 503-225-0255f: 503-525-6902www.docbones.com On Nov 19, 2011, at 12:49 PM, caughlindrc@... wrote:Very well put Dr SearsConnected by DROID on Verizon Wireless [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology (video) Dr. Carrick slays the old subluxation dragon with his scientificand philosophical swords.Standing behind him is an army of conceptual disentanglementtroops, discarding the cartesian dualism between mind and body.After hearing his lecture, will you agree that the old definitionof subluxation is 'nonsense'?< br>Here's the video: http://vimeo.com/29147713-- Andre A. Broussard, D.C.Broussard Clinic of Chiropractic & Acupuncture6701 Aberdeen Avenue, Suite 7Lubbock, Texas 79424www.CajunChiro.netwww.DrAndreBroussardBlog.comwww.AndreBroussardDC.com ______________________________________________________ACA-Members Mailing ListTo post to the list: ACA-members@...List policyNOTE: The ACA does not accept requests/inquiries through the listserv. The listserv is for peer-to-peer collaboration only. If you have an insurance-related question/concern you wish to bring to the attention of the ACA, please emailinsinfo@...Technical questions or to request to be removed from the list, please contact dmillard@...

1 of 1 File(s)

1471-2296-12-11.pdf

[Guest guest]

On Dec 11, 2011, at 12:31 PM, S Feinberg, DC wrote:Better, I think, to view placebo as any event or action that induces the mind-body to modify its awareness of its internal conditions, the external challenges it faces, and the availability and application of unrealized innate healing resources. What happens with placebos of any type is the mind-body comes to heal itself in a way that it could have done all along, but did not have the awareness to implement. That’s it in a nutshell. Everything else is method, and some methods work better than sugar pills, some a whole lot better and more predictably and repeatably. ". . . methods which exploit the potential of conscious intention by highly structured protocols provide the opportunity for much greater clinical influence."I would agree, Les, that the structure of the protocol is the key to clinical influence, as the protocol structures where the influence will be applied, or "which pathway is opened," in your words. As another example, in the Kirtan Kriya, which I'll be teaching next month in PDX, a "Breath of Fire," (or rapid nasal inhalation/exhalation) is engaged. Physiologically, such breathing excites both the sympathetic and the parasympathetic NS simultaneously. With the stakes for either fight-or-flight responses, or digestive, restorative responses, mutually heightened, intention becomes the deciding factor in terms of clinical influence. In this case, intention is exercised through the voluntary NS as specific elements of posture, movement (including of the fingers), vibrational sounds, and a specific mental focus. In other words, the protocol defines the intentionality. Or, the intentionality of the physician is the protocol. I would agree that a successful protocol opens a person's experience to latent potentials. And, I would add, is a great motivator for further investigations into enhanced innate self-healing protocols. From an active care POV, the protocols are preferably innately accessible to each person. From a passive care POV, the protocols must also call forth appropriate "pathways" for clinical outcomes, and the presence of another (local or distant) implies an intervention that must be empirical, at least in terms of differential diagnoses, to influence appropriate physiological networks. I would assume. This requires considerable diagnostic consideration, physiological understanding and timing; much more than giving a sugar pill and some hype. Sears, DC, IAYT1218 NW 21st AvePortland, Oregon 97209v: 503-225-0255f: 503-525-6902www.docbones.com

[Guest guest]

Hello Vern and Les,To answer one of your questions, Vern, often results with "placebo" methods, such as BodyTalk (and I would imagine also NMT) are more long lasting than with physical only type methods, such as adjusting. Both Les and I and others have helped people over distances where obviously we cannot utilize our arthrostims or do anything hands on. If the patient and the practitioner both believe results are possible without hands on, then often they are. I use my arthrostim a lot....because many patients need that due to their beliefs, and also because insurance is not going to pay if I do it all energetically.Les, you are very good with your explanations. I really appreciate your posts! Many years ago, at a Network Chiropractic event, I was lying face down on an adjusting table. The DC who was treating me was at the time working with another patient in the same large room. All of a sudden I felt my C2 clunk, just as tho I'd been structurally adjusted. I looked up and across the room, Epstein, DC was waving at me, with a smile. He had just adjusted my husband, fully knowing that what he did on my then husband would also adjust me!I've observed "Donny" do similar things with others, many times. Did those adjustments hold? Longer than most others. btw....the best structural adjustments I've experienced have been from Epstein. I've been adjusted by some really skilled adjustors, including Len Faye (who is very good!)Energy Medicine is growing. Chiropractic was developed from basically energy medicine concepts. We could be the profession to embrace Energy Medicine as part of our profession. In my opinion, if we don't others will and we will lose a huge opportunity. To that end, Vern I very much appreciate your willingness to look into something that is quite foreign to you, and especially with how busy you are. Blessings,Janet

Janet L Rueger, DCCertified in CraniopathyCertified BodyTalk Practitioner149 Clear Creek Dr., # 105Ashland, OR, 97520541-690-6799bodytalk@...

On Dec 11, 2011, at 7:36 PM, Vern Saboe wrote:

Excellent Les thanks, I anticipated the description of and limitations of "the placebo effect" inconsistent and limited duration I've read in the medical model slanted journals were in themselves likely limited. When dealing with and attempting to understand the power and limits (if any) of the human mind me-thought it likely we have a ways to go before we really have a handle on it. I have but one follow-up question if NMT is not a physical process why the use of the device? I mean when I watched you work on an individual at our state convention a few years ago you were utilizing an arthrostim. I also recall my colleague Dr. in the office with me and Dr. Jack sen both being trained and utilizing the device why practicing the tech one day in the office. So why the use of this mechanical device?

Thanks for the kind words Les I love you too buddy! As per the "other" everything is as it should be and everything happens for a reason and we have become stronger and more united as a state association. To answer your question the other "lobbyist" is no longer employed with the OCA. Lastly, it has been said where there are no trials in life, there will be no triumphs. It has also been said when we go through difficulties in life, there are things we learn and discover that we could not learn anywhere else. Les, our association emerged from that "valley" much stronger than when we entered "The hammer shatters glass, but forges steel."

We have our eyes on the prize, the brass ring is almost within our reach a "level playing field" in health care here in Oregon and the achievement of cultural authority. Having this very specific crystal clear goal which is absolutely achievable is exciting and makes all the work...not work at all my friend...

blessings,

Vern

[ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology (video)Dr. Carrick slays the old subluxation dragon with his scientificand philosophical swords.Standing behind him is an army of conceptual disentanglementtroops, discarding the cartesian dualism between mind and body.After hearing his lecture, will you agree that the old definitionof subluxation is 'nonsense'?< br>Here's the video: http://vimeo.com/29147713

-- Andre A. Broussard, D.C.Broussard Clinic of Chiropractic & Acupuncture6701 Aberdeen Avenue, Suite 7Lubbock, Texas 79424www.CajunChiro.netwww.DrAndreBroussardBlog.comwww.AndreBroussardDC.com______________________________________________________ACA-Members Mailing ListTo post to the list: ACA-members@...List policyNOTE: The ACA does not accept requests/inquiries through the listserv. The listserv is for peer-to-peer collaboration only. If you have an insurance-related question/concern you wish to bring to the attention of the ACA, please emailinsinfo@...Technical questions or to request to be removed from the list, please contact dmillard@...

[Guest guest]

Vern, There is an ancillary aspect used in NMT, by most practitioners most of the time, that is a bit of an enhancement but not NMT in and of itself. NMT can be used very effectively without this, but my recommendation to NMT practitioners is that they always use these “anchoring” steps. This ancillary aspect consists of two things, one is the breathing cycles that described and I agree with his description of their purpose. Every time we come to the end of a correction we have the patient do the breathing cycles. The other thing that is usually done is to either use a device like the Arthrostim, a small mechanical vibrator, or tapping along the spine or acupuncture representation of the spine such as the dorsum of the thumb, or even along the sagittal suture. The idea here is to “anchor” the informational correction just made by way of delivering via intention the informational content of the NMT pathway. We feel this is helpful to make the correction more durable and some of this is thought to relate to stimulating a richly innervated area of the body so that the nervous system is called upon to process a lot of sensory information while it is in the new informational state that the correction has created. The other explanation, and it isn’t a contradiction but another way of looking at it is that the physical stimulus is like the execution of an agreement, like shaking hands when you meet someone, if you will. The explanation I always explain to patients is that these physical components are not the correction but are used to make the informational correction that we have produced by specific directed intention more durable. So, always, the patient is made to understand that the physical steps are not the meat and potatoes, but only the parsley sprinkle on top. Blessings to you my friend, S. Feinberg, D.C. From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Vern SaboeSent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 7:37 PM' Sears'; S Feinberg, DCCc: Subject: Re: FW: [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology Excellent Les thanks, I anticipated the description of and limitations of " the placebo effect " inconsistent and limited duration I've read in the medical model slanted journals were in themselves likely limited. When dealing with and attempting to understand the power and limits (if any) of the human mind me-thought it likely we have a ways to go before we really have a handle on it. I have but one follow-up question if NMT is not a physical process why the use of the device? I mean when I watched you work on an individual at our state convention a few years ago you were utilizing an arthrostim. I also recall my colleague Dr. in the office with me and Dr. Jack sen both being trained and utilizing the device why practicing the tech one day in the office. So why the use of this mechanical device? Thanks for the kind words Les I love you too buddy! As per the " other " everything is as it should be and everything happens for a reason and we have become stronger and more united as a state association. To answer your question the other " lobbyist " is no longer employed with the OCA. Lastly, it has been said where there are no trials in life, there will be no triumphs. It has also been said when we go through difficulties in life, there are things we learn and discover that we could not learn anywhere else. Les, our association emerged from that " valley " much stronger than when we entered " The hammer shatters glass, but forges steel. " We have our eyes on the prize, the brass ring is almost within our reach a " level playing field " in health care here in Oregon and the achievement of cultural authority. Having this very specific crystal clear goal which is absolutely achievable is exciting and makes all the work...not work at all my friend... blessings, Vern [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology (video)Dr. Carrick slays the old subluxation dragon with his scientificand philosophical swords.Standing behind him is an army of conceptual disentanglementtroops, discarding the cartesian dualism between mind and body.After hearing his lecture, will you agree that the old definitionof subluxation is 'nonsense'?< br>Here's the video: http://vimeo.com/29147713-- Andre A. Broussard, D.C.Broussard Clinic of Chiropractic & Acupuncture6701 Aberdeen Avenue, Suite 7Lubbock, Texas 79424www.CajunChiro.netwww.DrAndreBroussardBlog.comwww.AndreBroussardDC.com______________________________________________________ACA-Members Mailing ListTo post to the list: ACA-members@...List policyNOTE: The ACA does not accept requests/inquiries through the listserv. The listserv is for peer-to-peer collaboration only. If you have an insurance-related question/concern you wish to bring to the attention of the ACA, please emailinsinfo@...Technical questions or to request to be removed from the list, please contact dmillard@...

[Guest guest]

Hi Janet, “We could be the profession to embrace Energy Medicine as part of our profession. In my opinion, if we don't others will and we will lose a huge opportunity.” Janet, you couldn’t be more correct. If we don’t take a stake in the growing movement toward psychoenergetic medicine methods as an adjunct to our mechanistic procedures, we will wind up as second tier PT wannabees. That seems to be the direction our institutions are headed if I read the tea leaves correctly and that would be a tragedy since “energy medicine” is indeed an integral part of our roots as a profession. I know from personal conversations with many people including Ted Morter who was once a chiropractic college president, back in the day when there were such things, that there has been a mostly covert and consistent movement among chiropractic “leadership” to purge such concepts from the schools and the profession. If anyone thinks that removing the word chiropractic from name of the school here, in LA, or elsewhere is not representative of that…… Well, think again. I’m sure it’s of value to support our schools as they are the only institutions we have, but we need to influence them as well. Our schools have many virtues, but they are producing students who have heard the term “innate intelligence” only as a historical artifact, and none of the students I have spoken to have even heard the terms qualitative interference and quantitative interference. S. Feinberg, D.C. From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Janet L Rueger, DCSent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 8:05 PMVern SaboeCc: ' Sears'; S Feinberg, DC; Subject: Re: FW: [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology Hello Vern and Les, To answer one of your questions, Vern, often results with " placebo " methods, such as BodyTalk (and I would imagine also NMT) are more long lasting than with physical only type methods, such as adjusting. Both Les and I and others have helped people over distances where obviously we cannot utilize our arthrostims or do anything hands on. If the patient and the practitioner both believe results are possible without hands on, then often they are. I use my arthrostim a lot....because many patients need that due to their beliefs, and also because insurance is not going to pay if I do it all energetically. Les, you are very good with your explanations. I really appreciate your posts! Many years ago, at a Network Chiropractic event, I was lying face down on an adjusting table. The DC who was treating me was at the time working with another patient in the same large room. All of a sudden I felt my C2 clunk, just as tho I'd been structurally adjusted. I looked up and across the room, Epstein, DC was waving at me, with a smile. He had just adjusted my husband, fully knowing that what he did on my then husband would also adjust me! I've observed " Donny " do similar things with others, many times. Did those adjustments hold? Longer than most others. btw....the best structural adjustments I've experienced have been from Epstein. I've been adjusted by some really skilled adjustors, including Len Faye (who is very good!) Energy Medicine is growing. Chiropractic was developed from basically energy medicine concepts. We could be the profession to embrace Energy Medicine as part of our profession. In my opinion, if we don't others will and we will lose a huge opportunity. To that end, Vern I very much appreciate your willingness to look into something that is quite foreign to you, and especially with how busy you are. Blessings,Janet Janet L Rueger, DCCertified in CraniopathyCertified BodyTalk Practitioner149 Clear Creek Dr., # 105Ashland, OR, 97520541-690-6799bodytalk@... On Dec 11, 2011, at 7:36 PM, Vern Saboe wrote: Excellent Les thanks, I anticipated the description of and limitations of " the placebo effect " inconsistent and limited duration I've read in the medical model slanted journals were in themselves likely limited. When dealing with and attempting to understand the power and limits (if any) of the human mind me-thought it likely we have a ways to go before we really have a handle on it. I have but one follow-up question if NMT is not a physical process why the use of the device? I mean when I watched you work on an individual at our state convention a few years ago you were utilizing an arthrostim. I also recall my colleague Dr. in the office with me and Dr. Jack sen both being trained and utilizing the device why practicing the tech one day in the office. So why the use of this mechanical device? Thanks for the kind words Les I love you too buddy! As per the " other " everything is as it should be and everything happens for a reason and we have become stronger and more united as a state association. To answer your question the other " lobbyist " is no longer employed with the OCA. Lastly, it has been said where there are no trials in life, there will be no triumphs. It has also been said when we go through difficulties in life, there are things we learn and discover that we could not learn anywhere else. Les, our association emerged from that " valley " much stronger than when we entered " The hammer shatters glass, but forges steel. " We have our eyes on the prize, the brass ring is almost within our reach a " level playing field " in health care here in Oregon and the achievement of cultural authority. Having this very specific crystal clear goal which is absolutely achievable is exciting and makes all the work...not work at all my friend... blessings, Vern [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology (video)Dr. Carrick slays the old subluxation dragon with his scientificand philosophical swords.Standing behind him is an army of conceptual disentanglementtroops, discarding the cartesian dualism between mind and body.After hearing his lecture, will you agree that the old definitionof subluxation is 'nonsense'?< br>Here's the video: http://vimeo.com/29147713-- Andre A. Broussard, D.C.Broussard Clinic of Chiropractic & Acupuncture6701 Aberdeen Avenue, Suite 7Lubbock, Texas 79424www.CajunChiro.netwww.DrAndreBroussardBlog.comwww.AndreBroussardDC.com______________________________________________________ACA-Members Mailing ListTo post to the list: ACA-members@...List policyNOTE: The ACA does not accept requests/inquiries through the listserv. The listserv is for peer-to-peer collaboration only. If you have an insurance-related question/concern you wish to bring to the attention of the ACA, please emailinsinfo@...Technical questions or to request to be removed from the list, please contact dmillard@...

[Guest guest]

Hi , I agree with your observations and often recommend active care for patients to include yoga, Trauma Release Exercises as taught by Berceli, meditation, and consciousness expanding tape and books from people like Eckhart Tolle. S. Feinberg, D.C. From: Sears [mailto:dm.bones@...] Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 6:14 PM S Feinberg, DCCc: 'Lyle Zurflu'; Subject: Re: FW: [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology On Dec 11, 2011, at 12:31 PM, S Feinberg, DC wrote:Better, I think, to view placebo as any event or action that induces the mind-body to modify its awareness of its internal conditions, the external challenges it faces, and the availability and application of unrealized innate healing resources. What happens with placebos of any type is the mind-body comes to heal itself in a way that it could have done all along, but did not have the awareness to implement. That’s it in a nutshell. Everything else is method, and some methods work better than sugar pills, some a whole lot better and more predictably and repeatably. " . . . methods which exploit the potential of conscious intention by highly structured protocols provide the opportunity for much greater clinical influence. " I would agree, Les, that the structure of the protocol is the key to clinical influence, as the protocol structures where the influence will be applied, or " which pathway is opened, " in your words. As another example, in the Kirtan Kriya, which I'll be teaching next month in PDX, a " Breath of Fire, " (or rapid nasal inhalation/exhalation) is engaged. Physiologically, such breathing excites both the sympathetic and the parasympathetic NS simultaneously. With the stakes for either fight-or-flight responses, or digestive, restorative responses, mutually heightened, intention becomes the deciding factor in terms of clinical influence. In this case, intention is exercised through the voluntary NS as specific elements of posture, movement (including of the fingers), vibrational sounds, and a specific mental focus. In other words, the protocol defines the intentionality. Or, the intentionality of the physician is the protocol. I would agree that a successful protocol opens a person's experience to latent potentials. And, I would add, is a great motivator for further investigations into enhanced innate self-healing protocols. From an active care POV, the protocols are preferably innately accessible to each person. From a passive care POV, the protocols must also call forth appropriate " pathways " for clinical outcomes, and the presence of another (local or distant) implies an intervention that must be empirical, at least in terms of differential diagnoses, to influence appropriate physiological networks. I would assume. This requires considerable diagnostic consideration, physiological understanding and timing; much more than giving a sugar pill and some hype. Sears, DC, IAYT1218 NW 21st AvePortland, Oregon 97209v: 503-225-0255f: 503-525-6902www.docbones.com

[Guest guest]

HI Les,I'm in 100% agreement with you. I'm concerned about our profession. I hope more DCs will step outside their training and investigate Energy Medicine! Blessings,Janet

Janet L Rueger, DCCertified in CraniopathyCertified BodyTalk Practitioner149 Clear Creek Dr., # 105Ashland, OR, 97520541-690-6799bodytalk@...

On Dec 11, 2011, at 9:04 PM, S Feinberg, DC wrote:Hi Janet, “We could be the profession to embrace Energy Medicine as part of our profession. In my opinion, if we don't others will and we will lose a huge opportunity.” Janet, you couldn’t be more correct. If we don’t take a stake in the growing movement toward psychoenergetic medicine methods as an adjunct to our mechanistic procedures, we will wind up as second tier PT wannabees. That seems to be the direction our institutions are headed if I read the tea leaves correctly and that would be a tragedy since “energy medicine” is indeed an integral part of our roots as a profession. I know from personal conversations with many people including Ted Morter who was once a chiropractic college president, back in the day when there were such things, that there has been a mostly covert and consistent movement among chiropractic “leadership” to purge such concepts from the schools and the profession. If anyone thinks that removing the word chiropractic from name of the school here, in LA, or elsewhere is not representative of that…… Well, think again. I’m sure it’s of value to support our schools as they are the only institutions we have, but we need to influence them as well. Our schools have many virtues, but they are producing students who have heard the term “innate intelligence” only as a historical artifact, and none of the students I have spoken to have even heard the terms qualitative interference and quantitative interference. S. Feinberg, D.C. From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Janet L Rueger, DCSent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 8:05 PMVern SaboeCc: ' Sears'; S Feinberg, DC; Subject: Re: FW: [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology Hello Vern and Les, To answer one of your questions, Vern, often results with "placebo" methods, such as BodyTalk (and I would imagine also NMT) are more long lasting than with physical only type methods, such as adjusting. Both Les and I and others have helped people over distances where obviously we cannot utilize our arthrostims or do anything hands on. If the patient and the practitioner both believe results are possible without hands on, then often they are. I use my arthrostim a lot....because many patients need that due to their beliefs, and also because insurance is not going to pay if I do it all energetically. Les, you are very good with your explanations. I really appreciate your posts! Many years ago, at a Network Chiropractic event, I was lying face down on an adjusting table. The DC who was treating me was at the time working with another patient in the same large room. All of a sudden I felt my C2 clunk, just as tho I'd been structurally adjusted. I looked up and across the room, Epstein, DC was waving at me, with a smile. He had just adjusted my husband, fully knowing that what he did on my then husband would also adjust me! I've observed "Donny" do similar things with others, many times. Did those adjustments hold? Longer than most others. btw....the best structural adjustments I've experienced have been from Epstein. I've been adjusted by some really skilled adjustors, including Len Faye (who is very good!) Energy Medicine is growing. Chiropractic was developed from basically energy medicine concepts. We could be the profession to embrace Energy Medicine as part of our profession. In my opinion, if we don't others will and we will lose a huge opportunity. To that end, Vern I very much appreciate your willingness to look into something that is quite foreign to you, and especially with how busy you are. Blessings,Janet Janet L Rueger, DCCertified in CraniopathyCertified BodyTalk Practitioner149 Clear Creek Dr., # 105Ashland, OR, 97520541-690-6799bodytalk@... On Dec 11, 2011, at 7:36 PM, Vern Saboe wrote: Excellent Les thanks, I anticipated the description of and limitations of "the placebo effect" inconsistent and limited duration I've read in the medical model slanted journals were in themselves likely limited. When dealing with and attempting to understand the power and limits (if any) of the human mind me-thought it likely we have a ways to go before we really have a handle on it. I have but one follow-up question if NMT is not a physical process why the use of the device? I mean when I watched you work on an individual at our state convention a few years ago you were utilizing an arthrostim. I also recall my colleague Dr. in the office with me and Dr. Jack sen both being trained and utilizing the device why practicing the tech one day in the office. So why the use of this mechanical device? Thanks for the kind words Les I love you too buddy! As per the "other" everything is as it should be and everything happens for a reason and we have become stronger and more united as a state association. To answer your question the other "lobbyist" is no longer employed with the OCA. Lastly, it has been said where there are no trials in life, there will be no triumphs. It has also been said when we go through difficulties in life, there are things we learn and discover that we could not learn anywhere else. Les, our association emerged from that "valley" much stronger than when we entered "The hammer shatters glass, but forges steel." We have our eyes on the prize, the brass ring is almost within our reach a "level playing field" in health care here in Oregon and the achievement of cultural authority. Having this very specific crystal clear goal which is absolutely achievable is exciting and makes all the work...not work at all my friend... blessings, Vern [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology (video)Dr. Carrick slays the old subluxation dragon with his scientificand philosophical swords.Standing behind him is an army of conceptual disentanglementtroops, discarding the cartesian dualism between mind and body.After hearing his lecture, will you agree that the old definitionof subluxation is 'nonsense'?< br>Here's the video: http://vimeo.com/29147713-- Andre A. Broussard, D.C.Broussard Clinic of Chiropractic & Acupuncture6701 Aberdeen Avenue, Suite 7Lubbock, Texas 79424www.CajunChiro.netwww.DrAndreBroussardBlog.comwww.AndreBroussardDC.com______________________________________________________ACA-Members Mailing ListTo post to the list: ACA-members@...List policyNOTE: The ACA does not accept requests/inquiries through the listserv. The listserv is for peer-to-peer collaboration only. If you have an insurance-related question/concern you wish to bring to the attention of the ACA, please emailinsinfo@...Technical questions or to request to be removed from the list, please contact dmillard@...

[Guest guest]

Ahhh!

At long last a chorus of voices arises that makes me feel that there are still those here in Oregon who are capable of keeping the intrinsic message and vision that gave birth and vitality to our wonderful profession alive, but are also adding meaningful new life to it's content.

A heartful thanks to each of you.

Herb Freeman D.C.

[ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology (video)

Dr. Carrick slays the old subluxation dragon with his scientificand philosophical swords.Standing behind him is an army of conceptual disentanglementtroops, discarding the cartesian dualism between mind and body.After hearing his lecture, will you agree that the old definitionof subluxation is 'nonsense'?< br>Here's the video: http://vimeo.com/29147713

-- Andre A. Broussard, D.C.Broussard Clinic of Chiropractic & Acupuncture6701 Aberdeen Avenue, Suite 7Lubbock, Texas 79424www.CajunChiro.netwww.DrAndreBroussardBlog.comwww.AndreBroussardDC.com

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NOTE: The ACA does not accept requests/inquiries through the listserv. The listserv is for peer-to-peer collaboration only. If you have an insurance-related question/concern you wish to bring to the attention of the ACA, please emailinsinfo@...

Technical questions or to request to be removed from the list, please contact dmillard@...

[Guest guest]

Ok, understood thanks again buddy! Vern

[ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology (video)

Dr. Carrick slays the old subluxation dragon with his scientificand philosophical swords.Standing behind him is an army of conceptual disentanglementtroops, discarding the cartesian dualism between mind and body.After hearing his lecture, will you agree that the old definitionof subluxation is 'nonsense'?< br>Here's the video: http://vimeo.com/29147713

-- Andre A. Broussard, D.C.Broussard Clinic of Chiropractic & Acupuncture6701 Aberdeen Avenue, Suite 7Lubbock, Texas 79424www.CajunChiro.netwww.DrAndreBroussardBlog.comwww.AndreBroussardDC.com

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NOTE: The ACA does not accept requests/inquiries through the listserv. The listserv is for peer-to-peer collaboration only. If you have an insurance-related question/concern you wish to bring to the attention of the ACA, please emailinsinfo@...

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[Guest guest]

Thanks Janet, we can never limit ourselves and I fully accept I for one cannot know everything about everything. Alternatively as your lobbyist and more importantly as your colleague I will always search for the truth and never allow my own personal bias realized or not stand in the way of this wonderful profession's road to advancement and that level playing field. My job as your colleague and lobbyist is to facilitate that advancement not hinder it and the goal as I say is clear a level playing field equal access to patients with equal reimbursement and cultural authority. It's so very ironic that here I am some 13 years later since I wrote my article in the then CAO trade journal about my concerns with the OBCE "Evidence-Based Practice Guidelines Committee" I had just been appointed too and here I am again just appointed by Governor Kitzhaber to the State Commission to do essentially the same thing for the State of Oregon. Here is a quote from that article again written 13-years ago, tell me if it isn't right on the money and relevant to our discussion;

"Mercy, and especially the AHCPR, evidence tables have a distinctly materialistic medical slant to them. Materialistic refers to the notion that if something cannot be perceived, measured, recorded, transformed into data and fully explained, it is epiphenomenal and thus irrelevant. In my humble opinion this has facilitated an overemphasis on data and methodology leading to medicine's obsessoion with objectiveness. Allopathic medicine's preoccupation with the double-blind crossover study and the randomized controlled trial has led to the under-treatment of many conditions and made them top heavy (costly, which is why we have managed care) due to their irrational reliance on technology. It has naturally resulted in ignoring such obscure notions/concepts as a vital force or life force. This, as we all know, has led to medicine's continued rejection of the efficacy of much of what we do. It has contributed to traditional medicine's claims that chiropractic lacks scientific proof, despite the reality that such proof is lacking in 85% of what they do. In short, the result of this mechanistic view is that our medical brethren have lost the qualities of empathy, intuition, and communication skills. They have sacrificed their humanistic qualities for hard data and deep in their souls they consider themselves to be scientists, purveyors of the truth, immune from over-involvement with their patients..."

Funny how things come full circle.....have a fantastic week......To The Continued Good Fight! Vern Saboe

[ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology (video)

Dr. Carrick slays the old subluxation dragon with his scientificand philosophical swords.Standing behind him is an army of conceptual disentanglementtroops, discarding the cartesian dualism between mind and body.After hearing his lecture, will you agree that the old definitionof subluxation is 'nonsense'?< br>Here's the video: http://vimeo.com/29147713

-- Andre A. Broussard, D.C.Broussard Clinic of Chiropractic & Acupuncture6701 Aberdeen Avenue, Suite 7Lubbock, Texas 79424www.CajunChiro.netwww.DrAndreBroussardBlog.comwww.AndreBroussardDC.com

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To post to the list: ACA-members@...List policy

NOTE: The ACA does not accept requests/inquiries through the listserv. The listserv is for peer-to-peer collaboration only. If you have an insurance-related question/concern you wish to bring to the attention of the ACA, please emailinsinfo@...

Technical questions or to request to be removed from the list, please contact dmillard@...

[Guest guest]

Beautifully said Vern!

M Kalb MS DCAuthor of Winning at Aging Wellness Chiropractor and Health Coachwww.DrKalb.com 541.488.3001

On Dec 12, 2011, at 7:25 AM, Vern Saboe wrote:

Thanks Janet, we can never limit ourselves and I fully accept I for one cannot know everything about everything. Alternatively as your lobbyist and more importantly as your colleague I will always search for the truth and never allow my own personal bias realized or not stand in the way of this wonderful profession's road to advancement and that level playing field. My job as your colleague and lobbyist is to facilitate that advancement not hinder it and the goal as I say is clear a level playing field equal access to patients with equal reimbursement and cultural authority. It's so very ironic that here I am some 13 years later since I wrote my article in the then CAO trade journal about my concerns with the OBCE "Evidence-Based Practice Guidelines Committee" I had just been appointed too and here I am again just appointed by Governor Kitzhaber to the State Commission to do essentially the same thing for the State of Oregon. Here is a quote from that article again written 13-years ago, tell me if it isn't right on the money and relevant to our discussion;

"Mercy, and especially the AHCPR, evidence tables have a distinctly materialistic medical slant to them. Materialistic refers to the notion that if something cannot be perceived, measured, recorded, transformed into data and fully explained, it is epiphenomenal and thus irrelevant. In my humble opinion this has facilitated an overemphasis on data and methodology leading to medicine's obsessoion with objectiveness. Allopathic medicine's preoccupation with the double-blind crossover study and the randomized controlled trial has led to the under-treatment of many conditions and made them top heavy (costly, which is why we have managed care) due to their irrational reliance on technology. It has naturally resulted in ignoring such obscure notions/concepts as a vital force or life force. This, as we all know, has led to medicine's continued rejection of the efficacy of much of what we do. It has contributed to traditional medicine's claims that chiropractic lacks scientific proof, despite the reality that such proof is lacking in 85% of what they do. In short, the result of this mechanistic view is that our medical brethren have lost the qualities of empathy, intuition, and communication skills. They have sacrificed their humanistic qualities for hard data and deep in their souls they consider themselves to be scientists, purveyors of the truth, immune from over-involvement with their patients..."

Funny how things come full circle.....have a fantastic week......To The Continued Good Fight! Vern Saboe

[ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology (video)Dr. Carrick slays the old subluxation dragon with his scientificand philosophical swords.Standing behind him is an army of conceptual disentanglementtroops, discarding the cartesian dualism between mind and body.After hearing his lecture, will you agree that the old definitionof subluxation is 'nonsense'?< br>Here's the video: http://vimeo.com/29147713

-- Andre A. Broussard, D.C.Broussard Clinic of Chiropractic & Acupuncture6701 Aberdeen Avenue, Suite 7Lubbock, Texas 79424www.CajunChiro.netwww.DrAndreBroussardBlog.comwww.AndreBroussardDC.com______________________________________________________ACA-Members Mailing ListTo post to the list: ACA-members@...List policyNOTE: The ACA does not accept requests/inquiries through the listserv. The listserv is for peer-to-peer collaboration only. If you have an insurance-related question/concern you wish to bring to the attention of the ACA, please emailinsinfo@...Technical questions or to request to be removed from the list, please contact dmillard@...

[Guest guest]

It seems to me, Vern, that if you are to truly grasp the concept and effects of 'Energy Medicine', you would do well to make an appointment with someone like Les who used EM technique as their primary mode of treatment and go through a course of treatments. (That is if you haven't already experienced it.) What do you have to lose? And you just might be surprised to how effective it is. I mean, how can you represent all of us who practice Chiropractic without understanding how we all contribute to the magnificent whole that is our precious profession?Just sayin'... :>)Ann DCFrom: "Janet L Rueger, DC" <bodytalk@...>" S Feinberg, DC" <feinberg@...>Cc: "Vern Saboe" <vsaboe@...>, " Sears" <dm.bones@...>, Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:51:14 PMSubject: Re: FW: [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology

HI Les,I'm in 100% agreement with you. I'm concerned about our profession. I hope more DCs will step outside their training and investigate Energy Medicine! Blessings,Janet

Janet L Rueger, DCCertified in CraniopathyCertified BodyTalk Practitioner149 Clear Creek Dr., # 105Ashland, OR, 97520541-690-6799bodytalk@...

On Dec 11, 2011, at 9:04 PM, S Feinberg, DC wrote:Hi Janet, “We could be the profession to embrace Energy Medicine as part of our profession. In my opinion, if we don't others will and we will lose a huge opportunity.†Janet, you couldn’t be more correct. If we don’t take a stake in the growing movement toward psychoenergetic medicine methods as an adjunct to our mechanistic procedures, we will wind up as second tier PT wannabees. That seems to be the direction our institutions are headed if I read the tea leaves correctly and that would be a tragedy since “energy medicine†is indeed an integral part of our roots as a profession. I know from personal conversations with many people including Ted Morter who was once a chiropractic college president, back in the day when there were such things, that there has been a mostly covert and consistent movement among chiropractic “leadership†to purge such concepts from the schools and the profession. If anyone thinks that removing the word chiropractic from name of the school here, in LA, or elsewhere is not representative of that…… Well, think again. I’m sure it’s of value to support our schools as they are the only institutions we have, but we need to influence them as well. Our schools have many virtues, but they are producing students who have heard the term “innate intelligence†only as a historical artifact, and none of the students I have spoken to have even heard the terms qualitative interference and quantitative interference. S. Feinberg, D.C. From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Janet L Rueger, DCSent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 8:05 PMVern SaboeCc: ' Sears'; S Feinberg, DC; Subject: Re: FW: [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology Hello Vern and Les, To answer one of your questions, Vern, often results with "placebo" methods, such as BodyTalk (and I would imagine also NMT) are more long lasting than with physical only type methods, such as adjusting. Both Les and I and others have helped people over distances where obviously we cannot utilize our arthrostims or do anything hands on. If the patient and the practitioner both believe results are possible without hands on, then often they are. I use my arthrostim a lot....because many patients need that due to their beliefs, and also because insurance is not going to pay if I do it all energetically. Les, you are very good with your explanations. I really appreciate your posts! Many years ago, at a Network Chiropractic event, I was lying face down on an adjusting table. The DC who was treating me was at the time working with another patient in the same large room. All of a sudden I felt my C2 clunk, just as tho I'd been structurally adjusted. I looked up and across the room, Epstein, DC was waving at me, with a smile. He had just adjusted my husband, fully knowing that what he did on my then husband would also adjust me! I've observed "Donny" do similar things with others, many times. Did those adjustments hold? Longer than most others. btw....the best structural adjustments I've experienced have been from Epstein. I've been adjusted by some really skilled adjustors, including Len Faye (who is very good!) Energy Medicine is growing. Chiropractic was developed from basically energy medicine concepts. We could be the profession to embrace Energy Medicine as part of our profession. In my opinion, if we don't others will and we will lose a huge opportunity. To that end, Vern I very much appreciate your willingness to look into something that is quite foreign to you, and especially with how busy you are. Blessings,Janet Janet L Rueger, DCCertified in CraniopathyCertified BodyTalk Practitioner149 Clear Creek Dr., # 105Ashland, OR, 97520541-690-6799bodytalk@... On Dec 11, 2011, at 7:36 PM, Vern Saboe wrote: Excellent Les thanks, I anticipated the description of and limitations of "the placebo effect" inconsistent and limited duration I've read in the medical model slanted journals were in themselves likely limited. When dealing with and attempting to understand the power and limits (if any) of the human mind me-thought it likely we have a ways to go before we really have a handle on it. I have but one follow-up question if NMT is not a physical process why the use of the device? I mean when I watched you work on an individual at our state convention a few years ago you were utilizing an arthrostim. I also recall my colleague Dr. in the office with me and Dr. Jack sen both being trained and utilizing the device why practicing the tech one day in the office. So why the use of this mechanical device? Thanks for the kind words Les I love you too buddy! As per the "other" everything is as it should be and everything happens for a reason and we have become stronger and more united as a state association. To answer your question the other "lobbyist" is no longer employed with the OCA. Lastly, it has been said where there are no trials in life, there will be no triumphs. It has also been said when we go through difficulties in life, there are things we learn and discover that we could not learn anywhere else. Les, our association emerged from that "valley" much stronger than when we entered "The hammer shatters glass, but forges steel." We have our eyes on the prize, the brass ring is almost within our reach a "level playing field" in health care here in Oregon and the achievement of cultural authority. Having this very specific crystal clear goal which is absolutely achievable is exciting and makes all the work...not work at all my friend... blessings, Vern [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology (video)Dr. Carrick slays the old subluxation dragon with his scientificand philosophical swords.Standing behind him is an army of conceptual disentanglementtroops, discarding the cartesian dualism between mind and body.After hearing his lecture, will you agree that the old definitionof subluxation is 'nonsense'?< br>Here's the video: http://vimeo.com/29147713-- Andre A. Broussard, D.C.Broussard Clinic of Chiropractic & Acupuncture6701 Aberdeen Avenue, Suite 7Lubbock, Texas 79424www.CajunChiro.netwww.DrAndreBroussardBlog.comwww.AndreBroussardDC.com______________________________________________________ACA-Members Mailing ListTo post to the list: ACA-members@...List policyNOTE: The ACA does not accept requests/inquiries through the listserv. The listserv is for peer-to-peer collaboration only. If you have an insurance-related question/concern you wish to bring to the attention of the ACA, please emailinsinfo@...Technical questions or to request to be removed from the list, please contact dmillard@...

[Guest guest]

Thanks , we are getting there, approaching that mountain top....TOGETHER.....I have too tell you it was so heartwarming to see a house full of colleagues for Rep. Jim Jim was simply beaming. In all my years of working in the political arena it has become abuntantly clear these types of "grass roots events" doctors hosting private events in their priviate homes has a positive effect like no other. The personal connection that is made with that legislator or candidate as a result simply cannot be duplicated in any other venue. It is what has helped level the poltical playing field for us vs. the big lobby with its big money eg the insurance companies, the drug companies, the hospitals, the Oregon medical Association etc., etc. and partly why we have been so successful since 2005.....thanks again for all you wonderful doctors who stepped up......we have more coming starting in the Spring which will be critical..so...start saving up your pop bottle money...lol....

Cheers,

Vern Saboe

[ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology (video)

Dr. Carrick slays the old subluxation dragon with his scientificand philosophical swords.Standing behind him is an army of conceptual disentanglementtroops, discarding the cartesian dualism between mind and body.After hearing his lecture, will you agree that the old definitionof subluxation is 'nonsense'?< br>Here's the video: http://vimeo.com/29147713

-- Andre A. Broussard, D.C.Broussard Clinic of Chiropractic & Acupuncture6701 Aberdeen Avenue, Suite 7Lubbock, Texas 79424www.CajunChiro.netwww.DrAndreBroussardBlog.comwww.AndreBroussardDC.com

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NOTE: The ACA does not accept requests/inquiries through the listserv. The listserv is for peer-to-peer collaboration only. If you have an insurance-related question/concern you wish to bring to the attention of the ACA, please emailinsinfo@...

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[Guest guest]



Agreed, very good idea and no I have not experienced the tech.....Vern

[ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology (video)

Dr. Carrick slays the old subluxation dragon with his scientificand philosophical swords.Standing behind him is an army of conceptual disentanglementtroops, discarding the cartesian dualism between mind and body.After hearing his lecture, will you agree that the old definitionof subluxation is 'nonsense'?< br>Here's the video: http://vimeo.com/29147713

-- Andre A. Broussard, D.C.Broussard Clinic of Chiropractic & Acupuncture6701 Aberdeen Avenue, Suite 7Lubbock, Texas 79424www.CajunChiro.netwww.DrAndreBroussardBlog.comwww.AndreBroussardDC.com

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NOTE: The ACA does not accept requests/inquiries through the listserv. The listserv is for peer-to-peer collaboration only. If you have an insurance-related question/concern you wish to bring to the attention of the ACA, please emailinsinfo@...

Technical questions or to request to be removed from the list, please contact dmillard@...

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:Great discussion. We all approach subjects such as this colored by our own personal philosophies and technical expertise in whichever techniques we use. The commonality in every therapeutic intervention is the human body we are working on. What is it within that human framework we are striving to help that receives input from us and transmutes that input to achieve the state of healing? From my own personal leanings I would propose that the fascia, the most ubiquitous tissue in the body, is capable of being at least one of the links in the chain of elements of data transmission that takes the input from the practitioner and delivers it to what termed "the appropriate physiological networks" to achieve a positive healing response. We cannot work on the human body without intentionally or unintentionally influencing the fascial network. Research has shown the deep fascia to be richly innervated and thus capable of neurological input and guidance, at the very least in a proprioceptive role (A Histological Study of the Deep Fascia of the Upper Limb, Stecco et al, It. J. Anat. Embryol. Vol. III, n.2, 000-000, 2006). Every part of the body is invested within the fascial network. The fascia is formed first, embryologically, then the other systems of the body form within the fascial template (The Endless Web, Schultz/Feitis) and are from that point forward indivisible from the surrounding and pervading fascia. Looking deeper into the extracellular matrix (which runs throughout the body via the fascia and has been shown to be an element of informational transmission) brings us even deeper into the realm of subtle energy responses to physiological, and perhaps even psychological, therapeutic input.While watching Dr. Freeman work as I was also beginning my studies of Stecco's Fascial Manipulation, I was struck with the notion that the body responds equally well to subtle input and deep work, depending upon the person and circumstances. Herb showed me first hand that instrument adjusting is very powerful and he was working some of the very same points (superficially and gently) that Luigi Stecco uses in his work on a much deeper level. And both are working areas that are very close to the points used by traditional Chinese medicine practitioners for thousands of years.As we are beings consisting of body, mind and spirit (which, to me, are interconnected and indivisible), could it be that there are receptive/perceptive capabilities of the body that hard science is just beginning to understand and that have been utilized from time immemorial by those healers that have worked at keeping human beings healthy even before the advent of science? D.D. started his journey as a magnetic healer and discovered chiropractic along the way. B.J. took his fathers intended philosophy of healing along a parallel but somewhat different path. Palmer, DeJarnette, Gonstead, Van Rumpt, Toftness, Freeman, Feinberg and every other great chiropractor that has taken technical and philosophical ideas from our predecessors and evolved their own techniques have all found that the human body responds well to intentional input. Each technique may be extremely different but each is obviously valid, otherwise they wouldn't still be around. What seem to be widely divergent paths of modality within our own profession could be, in the grand scheme of things, so closely interrelated that the commonalities of each of our techniques - from the subtle empirical to the scientifically dissected reductionist - far outweigh the perceived differences and are simply two sides of the same coin, each working well for the intended outcome no matter which philosophical bent the practitioner comes from.Damn fine cup of coffee this morning!Rod , DCTillamook Re: FW: [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology

Ahhh!

At long last a chorus of voices arises that makes me feel that there are still those here in Oregon who are capable of keeping the intrinsic message and vision that gave birth and vitality to our wonderful profession alive, but are also adding meaningful new life to it's content.

A heartful thanks to each of you.

Herb Freeman D.C.

[ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology (video)

Dr. Carrick slays the old subluxation dragon with his scientificand philosophical swords.Standing behind him is an army of conceptual disentanglementtroops, discarding the cartesian dualism between mind and body.After hearing his lecture, will you agree that the old definitionof subluxation is 'nonsense'?< br>Here's the video: http://vimeo.com/29147713

-- Andre A. Broussard, D.C.Broussard Clinic of Chiropractic & Acupuncture6701 Aberdeen Avenue, Suite 7Lubbock, Texas 79424www.CajunChiro.netwww.DrAndreBroussardBlog.comwww.AndreBroussardDC.com

______________________________________________________ACA-Members Mailing List

To post to the list: ACA-members@...List policy

NOTE: The ACA does not accept requests/inquiries through the listserv. The listserv is for peer-to-peer collaboration only. If you have an insurance-related question/concern you wish to bring to the attention of the ACA, please emailinsinfo@...

Technical questions or to request to be removed from the list, please contact dmillard@...

Rodney G. , DC

Tillamook Natural Health Center

309 Laurel Ave.

Tillamook, OR 97141

503-842-6532

[Guest guest]

Well said Rod…….cheers, Vern Saboe From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Rod DCSent: Monday, December 12, 2011 8:54 AMBERNICE FREEMANCc: oregon dc'sSubject: Re: FW: [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology Hi folks: Great discussion. We all approach subjects such as this colored by our own personal philosophies and technical expertise in whichever techniques we use. The commonality in every therapeutic intervention is the human body we are working on. What is it within that human framework we are striving to help that receives input from us and transmutes that input to achieve the state of healing? From my own personal leanings I would propose that the fascia, the most ubiquitous tissue in the body, is capable of being at least one of the links in the chain of elements of data transmission that takes the input from the practitioner and delivers it to what termed " the appropriate physiological networks " to achieve a positive healing response. We cannot work on the human body without intentionally or unintentionally influencing the fascial network. Research has shown the deep fascia to be richly innervated and thus capable of neurological input and guidance, at the very least in a proprioceptive role (A Histological Study of the Deep Fascia of the Upper Limb, Stecco et al, It. J. Anat. Embryol. Vol. III, n.2, 000-000, 2006). Every part of the body is invested within the fascial network. The fascia is formed first, embryologically, then the other systems of the body form within the fascial template (The Endless Web, Schultz/Feitis) and are from that point forward indivisible from the surrounding and pervading fascia. Looking deeper into the extracellular matrix (which runs throughout the body via the fascia and has been shown to be an element of informational transmission) brings us even deeper into the realm of subtle energy responses to physiological, and perhaps even psychological, therapeutic input. While watching Dr. Freeman work as I was also beginning my studies of Stecco's Fascial Manipulation, I was struck with the notion that the body responds equally well to subtle input and deep work, depending upon the person and circumstances. Herb showed me first hand that instrument adjusting is very powerful and he was working some of the very same points (superficially and gently) that Luigi Stecco uses in his work on a much deeper level. And both are working areas that are very close to the points used by traditional Chinese medicine practitioners for thousands of years. As we are beings consisting of body, mind and spirit (which, to me, are interconnected and indivisible), could it be that there are receptive/perceptive capabilities of the body that hard science is just beginning to understand and that have been utilized from time immemorial by those healers that have worked at keeping human beings healthy even before the advent of science? D.D. started his journey as a magnetic healer and discovered chiropractic along the way. B.J. took his fathers intended philosophy of healing along a parallel but somewhat different path. Palmer, DeJarnette, Gonstead, Van Rumpt, Toftness, Freeman, Feinberg and every other great chiropractor that has taken technical and philosophical ideas from our predecessors and evolved their own techniques have all found that the human body responds well to intentional input. Each technique may be extremely different but each is obviously valid, otherwise they wouldn't still be around. What seem to be widely divergent paths of modality within our own profession could be, in the grand scheme of things, so closely interrelated that the commonalities of each of our techniques - from the subtle empirical to the scientifically dissected reductionist - far outweigh the perceived differences and are simply two sides of the same coin, each working well for the intended outcome no matter which philosophical bent the practitioner comes from. Damn fine cup of coffee this morning! Rod , DCTillamook Re: FW: [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology Ahhh! At long last a chorus of voices arises that makes me feel that there are still those here in Oregon who are capable of keeping the intrinsic message and vision that gave birth and vitality to our wonderful profession alive, but are also adding meaningful new life to it's content. A heartful thanks to each of you. Herb Freeman D.C. [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology (video)Dr. Carrick slays the old subluxation dragon with his scientificand philosophical swords.Standing behind him is an army of conceptual disentanglementtroops, discarding the cartesian dualism between mind and body.After hearing his lecture, will you agree that the old definitionof subluxation is 'nonsense'?< br>Here's the video: http://vimeo.com/29147713-- Andre A. Broussard, D.C.Broussard Clinic of Chiropractic & Acupuncture6701 Aberdeen Avenue, Suite 7Lubbock, Texas 79424www.CajunChiro.netwww.DrAndreBroussardBlog.comwww.AndreBroussardDC.com______________________________________________________ACA-Members Mailing ListTo post to the list: ACA-members@...List policyNOTE: The ACA does not accept requests/inquiries through the listserv. The listserv is for peer-to-peer collaboration only. If you have an insurance-related question/concern you wish to bring to the attention of the ACA, please emailinsinfo@...Technical questions or to request to be removed from the list, please contact dmillard@... Rodney G. , DCTillamook Natural Health Center309 Laurel Ave.Tillamook, OR 97141503-842-6532

[Guest guest]

On Dec 11, 2011, at 5:44 PM, S Feinberg, DC wrote:The effect of psychoenergetic treatment models always involves belief, concrete belief in the procedure by the practitioner and at least a provisional belief in the patient. Without that, there is not real therapeutic intention on the part of the practitioner, just speculation on the possibility and that is different.Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread, directly with words or indirectly with consideration. As information is analyzed from our differing perspectives, greater clarity arises for all. The stakes of getting a handle on "coupled state physics," or the "coupling" of a patient's consciousness to the intended therapeutic intervention, is critical to our profession. Now, we are largely passive care, doing to others, practitioners, who may or may not understand what DD was getting at with this third level of "subluxation," or "auto-suggestion." Clearly, it points us toward the consciousness of the patient as a primary determinate of synching with Innate Intelligence. There's something going on here, but we're still not sure what it is, are we Dr. ?From a macro yogic/meditative POV, the "Yoga Sutras of Putanjali," with an origin dating back perhaps 5,000 years, defines yoga as largely a self-healing process directly involving the patient's consciousness and voluntary interaction with the autonomic NS. Specifically, several aspects of the patient's consciousness are highlighted as critical to this process: 1) How the patient views him or herself as an individual; 2) How the patient views his or her relationships to others; 3) How the patient views his or her relationship to their environment. Les responded in one of his recent posts that a person's "emotions determine their physiological tone." "Emotions" from a yogic POV are the product of the three criteria of consciousness listed above. IOW, until a person discovers "Who am I?", "Who am I in relationship to others?", and "Who am i in relationship to the environment in which we all live?" clinical influence will not be fully realized. A bigger part of chiropractic must evolve; one that teaches the patient that they also have responsibilities and opportunities for enhanced self-healing to manifest personally.So, the macro, long-term goal of yogic/meditative interventions is to assist the patient in better understanding him or herself. Such understanding, once experienced even at the beginning levels of self-healing, prompt the person toward greater levels of self-healing. The path of self-knowledge and self-healing are the same path. Once we experience how our voluntary efforts to influence the autonomic NS can yield healthful benefits, we are "tuned" consciously for more benefits from qualitative self-information. When we become more at peace with ourselves, with our relationships to others, and with our relationship to the environment which supports us, we are able to access Innate Intelligence for our greater benefit. On the micro level, the Devil is in the details. Each individual, although collectively united with all others as a single organism in it's macro requirements, is unique at the DNA level of physiology. That uniqueness may be addressed directly by an effective differential diagnostic understanding on the part of the physician/teacher of the patient's needs, as NMT informs us. ("NMT is a system of therapeutic dialogs, each structured around accepted concepts of the physiology related to particular body processes like allergy, autoimmune inflammation, the neurology of pain, toxin elimination, etc.") While NMT addresses the patient's qualitative misinformation via the symptom picture, yoga and meditation use more global pathways, such as: 1) breathing (think pulmonary peptides interacting with the periaquaeductal - PAG area of the brain - and autonomic NS receptors throughout the body) (See "Approaching a Theory of Emotion," by Candace Pert); 2) posture (think relationship to gravity, global body cellular deformation, cytoskeletal integrin synchronization connecting directly to each cell's DNA, and "mechanotransduction" or chemical signals arising from cellular mechanical forces); 3) specific spinal and extremity movement patterns (corresponding to mal-affected organs), including finger positioning ("mudras" that stimulate corresponding areas of the brain - think homunculus); 4) vibrational symbolic sounds ("mantras" that create reparative vibrational frequencies in every cell in the body, and their DNA, given other requirements listed here); 5) and specific mental focus (particularly in relationship to ubiquitous universal forces such as electro-magnetic radiation, or light, and gravity.) Such protocols have been shown to address global well-being, but also may be intentionally (and rationally) addressed to specific pathophysiologies. In the most fundamental expression, introducing movement, including vibration, into pathologically malfunctioning organs or tissue, assisted by corresponding stimulation or inhibition of the autonomic NS, and the focused intention of the patient sustained by repetitive aspects of the protocol, Innate Intelligence is engaged or synchronized in the moment, and self-healing occurs. Or, as Ida Rolf revealed: "Motion is life." And, "This is the gospel of Rolfing: When the body gets working appropriately, the force of gravity can flow through. Then, spontaneously, the body heals itself." Thanks again for this thread. We are already so much further down the line than others, as chiropractors in this psychoenergetic "auto-suggestion" of our inheritance. At this point of professional transition into a fuller mainstream of American healthcare, chiropractic's future depends heavily on those who are working to join hands with our founding principles. We dare not see ourselves as separate from other traditions with similar approaches (increasingly from far-sighted allopaths), but as the flag-bearers of a long neglected critical component of human health, made infamous by the bloodless Newtonian Scientific Revolution that dismissed and denigrated all things non-material. We may use Newtonian methods to establish Quantum outcomes.Cheers! (And apologies for the length of this post.) Sears, DC, IAYT1218 NW 21st AvePortland, Oregon 97209v: 503-225-0255f: 503-525-6902www.docbones.com

[Guest guest]

Damn fine cup of coffee, indeed. We are all one...Ann DCFrom: "vsaboe" <vsaboe@...>"Rod DC" <rjacksondc@...>, "BERNICE FREEMAN" <hbf4747@...>Cc: "oregon dc's" < >Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 9:56:06 AMSubject: RE: FW: [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology

Well said Rod…….cheers, Vern Saboe From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Rod DCSent: Monday, December 12, 2011 8:54 AMBERNICE FREEMANCc: oregon dc'sSubject: Re: FW: [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology Hi folks: Great discussion. We all approach subjects such as this colored by our own personal philosophies and technical expertise in whichever techniques we use. The commonality in every therapeutic intervention is the human body we are working on. What is it within that human framework we are striving to help that receives input from us and transmutes that input to achieve the state of healing? From my own personal leanings I would propose that the fascia, the most ubiquitous tissue in the body, is capable of being at least one of the links in the chain of elements of data transmission that takes the input from the practitioner and delivers it to what termed "the appropriate physiological networks" to achieve a positive healing response. We cannot work on the human body without intentionally or unintentionally influencing the fascial network. Research has shown the deep fascia to be richly innervated and thus capable of neurological input and guidance, at the very least in a proprioceptive role (A Histological Study of the Deep Fascia of the Upper Limb, Stecco et al, It. J. Anat. Embryol. Vol. III, n.2, 000-000, 2006). Every part of the body is invested within the fascial network. The fascia is formed first, embryologically, then the other systems of the body form within the fascial template (The Endless Web, Schultz/Feitis) and are from that point forward indivisible from the surrounding and pervading fascia. Looking deeper into the extracellular matrix (which runs throughout the body via the fascia and has been shown to be an element of informational transmission) brings us even deeper into the realm of subtle energy responses to physiological, and perhaps even psychological, therapeutic input. While watching Dr. Freeman work as I was also beginning my studies of Stecco's Fascial Manipulation, I was struck with the notion that the body responds equally well to subtle input and deep work, depending upon the person and circumstances. Herb showed me first hand that instrument adjusting is very powerful and he was working some of the very same points (superficially and gently) that Luigi Stecco uses in his work on a much deeper level. And both are working areas that are very close to the points used by traditional Chinese medicine practitioners for thousands of years. As we are beings consisting of body, mind and spirit (which, to me, are interconnected and indivisible), could it be that there are receptive/perceptive capabilities of the body that hard science is just beginning to understand and that have been utilized from time immemorial by those healers that have worked at keeping human beings healthy even before the advent of science? D.D. started his journey as a magnetic healer and discovered chiropractic along the way. B.J. took his fathers intended philosophy of healing along a parallel but somewhat different path. Palmer, DeJarnette, Gonstead, Van Rumpt, Toftness, Freeman, Feinberg and every other great chiropractor that has taken technical and philosophical ideas from our predecessors and evolved their own techniques have all found that the human body responds well to intentional input. Each technique may be extremely different but each is obviously valid, otherwise they wouldn't still be around. What seem to be widely divergent paths of modality within our own profession could be, in the grand scheme of things, so closely interrelated that the commonalities of each of our techniques - from the subtle empirical to the scientifically dissected reductionist - far outweigh the perceived differences and are simply two sides of the same coin, each working well for the intended outcome no matter which philosophical bent the practitioner comes from. Damn fine cup of coffee this morning! Rod , DCTillamook Re: FW: [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology Ahhh! At long last a chorus of voices arises that makes me feel that there are still those here in Oregon who are capable of keeping the intrinsic message and vision that gave birth and vitality to our wonderful profession alive, but are also adding meaningful new life to it's content. A heartful thanks to each of you. Herb Freeman D.C. [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology (video)Dr. Carrick slays the old subluxation dragon with his scientificand philosophical swords.Standing behind him is an army of conceptual disentanglementtroops, discarding the cartesian dualism between mind and body.After hearing his lecture, will you agree that the old definitionof subluxation is 'nonsense'?< br>Here's the video: http://vimeo.com/29147713-- Andre A. Broussard, D.C.Broussard Clinic of Chiropractic & Acupuncture6701 Aberdeen Avenue, Suite 7Lubbock, Texas 79424www.CajunChiro.netwww.DrAndreBroussardBlog.comwww.AndreBroussardDC.com______________________________________________________ACA-Members Mailing ListTo post to the list: ACA-members@...List policyNOTE: The ACA does not accept requests/inquiries through the listserv. The listserv is for peer-to-peer collaboration only. If you have an insurance-related question/concern you wish to bring to the attention of the ACA, please emailinsinfo@...Technical questions or to request to be removed from the list, please contact dmillard@... Rodney G. , DCTillamook Natural Health Center309 Laurel Ave.Tillamook, OR 97141503-842-6532

[Guest guest]

Who to see? Les Feinberg, Herb Freeman. There are others, too.Try it. You'll like it.Ann DCFrom: "Vern Saboe" <vsaboe@...>bluepearl2001@..., "Janet L Rueger, DC" <bodytalk@...>Cc: " Sears" <dm.bones@...>, , " S Feinberg, DC" <feinberg@...>Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 8:52:50 AMSubject: Re: FW: [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology

Agreed, very good idea and no I have not experienced the tech.....Vern

[ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology (video)

Dr. Carrick slays the old subluxation dragon with his scientificand philosophical swords.Standing behind him is an army of conceptual disentanglementtroops, discarding the cartesian dualism between mind and body.After hearing his lecture, will you agree that the old definitionof subluxation is 'nonsense'?< br>Here's the video: http://vimeo.com/29147713

-- Andre A. Broussard, D.C.Broussard Clinic of Chiropractic & Acupuncture6701 Aberdeen Avenue, Suite 7Lubbock, Texas 79424www.CajunChiro.netwww.DrAndreBroussardBlog.comwww.AndreBroussardDC.com

______________________________________________________ACA-Members Mailing List

To post to the list: ACA-members@...List policy

NOTE: The ACA does not accept requests/inquiries through the listserv. The listserv is for peer-to-peer collaboration only. If you have an insurance-related question/concern you wish to bring to the attention of the ACA, please emailinsinfo@...

Technical questions or to request to be removed from the list, please contact dmillard@...

[Guest guest]

, Wonderful post! Thanks, S. Feinberg, D.C. From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of SearsSent: Monday, December 12, 2011 11:45 AM S Feinberg, DCCc: 'vsaboe'; Subject: Re: FW: [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology On Dec 11, 2011, at 5:44 PM, S Feinberg, DC wrote:The effect of psychoenergetic treatment models always involves belief, concrete belief in the procedure by the practitioner and at least a provisional belief in the patient. Without that, there is not real therapeutic intention on the part of the practitioner, just speculation on the possibility and that is different. Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread, directly with words or indirectly with consideration. As information is an alyzed from our differing perspectives, greater clarity arises for all. The stakes of getting a handle on " coupled state physics, " or the " coupling " of a patient's consciousness to the intended therapeutic intervention, is critical to our profession. Now, we are largely passive care, doing to others, practitioners, who may or may not understand what DD was getting at with this third level of " subluxation, " or " auto-suggestion. " Clearly, it points us toward the consciousness of the patient as a primary determinate of synching with Innate Intelligence. There's something going on here, but we're still not sure what it is, are we Dr. ? From a macro yogic/meditative POV, the " Yoga Sutras of Putanjali, " with an origin dating back perhaps 5,000 years, defines yoga as largely a self-healing process directly involving the patient's consciousness and voluntary interaction with the autonomic NS. Specifically, several aspects o f the patient's consciousness are highlighted as critical to this process: 1) How the patient views him or herself as an individual; 2) How the patient views his or her relationships to others; 3) How the patient views his or her relationship to their environment. Les responded in one of his recent posts that a person's " emotions determine their physiological tone. " " Emotions " from a yogic POV are the product of the three criteria of consciousness listed above. IOW, until a person discovers " Who am I? " , " Who am I in relationship to others? " , and " Who am i in relationship to the environment in which we all live? " clinical influence will not be fully realized. A bigger part of chiropractic must evolve; one that teaches the pa tient that they also have responsibilities and opportunities for enhanced self-healing to manifest personally. So, the macro, long-term goal of yogic/meditative interventions is to assist the patient in better understanding him or herself. Such understanding, once experienced even at the beginning levels of self-healing, prompt the person toward greater levels of self-healing. The path of self-knowledge and self-healing are the same path. Once we experience how our voluntary efforts to influence the autonomic NS can yield healthful benefits, we are " tuned " consciously for more benefits from qualitative self-information. When we become more at peace with ourselves, with our relationships to others, and with our relationship to the environment which supports us, we are able to access Innate Intelligence for our greater benefit. On the micro level, the Devil is in the details. Each individual , although collectively united with all others as a single organism in it's macro requirements, is unique at the DNA level of physiology. That uniqueness may be addressed directly by an effective differential diagnostic understanding on the part of the physician/teacher of the patient's needs, as NMT informs us. ( " NMT is a system of therapeutic dialogs, each structured around accepted concepts of the physiology related to particular body processes like allergy, autoimmune inflammation, the neurology of pain, toxin elimination, etc. " ) While NMT addresses the patient's qualitative misinformation via the symptom picture, yoga and meditation use more global pathways, such as: 1) breathing (think pulmonary peptides interacting with the periaquaeductal - PAG area of the brain - and autonomic NS receptors throughout the body) (See " Approaching a Theory of Emotion, " by Candace Pert); 2) posture (think relationship to gravity, global body cellular deformation, cytoskeletal integrin synchronization connecting directly to each cell's DNA, and " mechanotransduction " or chemical signals arising from cellular mechanical forces); 3) specific spinal and extremity movement patterns (corresponding to mal-affected organs), including finger positioning ( " mudras " that stimulate corresponding areas of the brain - think homunculus); 4) vibrational symbolic sounds ( " mantras " that create reparative vibrational frequencies in every cell in the body, and their DNA, given other requirements listed here); 5) and specific mental focus (particularly in relationship to ubiquitous universal forces such as electro-magnetic radiation, or light, and gravity.) Such protocols have been shown to address global well-being, but also may be intentionally (and rationally) addressed to specific pathophysiologies. In the most fundamental expression, introducin g movement, including vibration, into pathologically malfunctioning organs or tissue, assisted by corresponding stimulation or inhibition of the autonomic NS, and the focused intention of the patient sustained by repetitive aspects of the protocol, Innate Intelligence is engaged or synchronized in the moment, and self-healing occurs. Or, as Ida Rolf revealed: " Motion is life. " And, " This is the gospel of Rolfing: When the body gets working appropriately, the force of gravity can flow through. Then, spontaneously, the body heals itself. " Thanks again for this thread. We are already so much further down the line than others, as chiropractors in this psychoenergetic " auto-suggestion " of our inheritance. At this point of professional transition into a fuller mainstream of American healthcare, chiropractic's futu re depends heavily on those who are working to join hands with our founding principles. We dare not see ourselves as separate from other traditions with similar approaches (increasingly from far-sighted allopaths), but as the flag-bearers of a long neglected critical component of human health, made infamous by the bloodless Newtonian Scientific Revolution that dismissed and denigrated all things non-material. We may use Newtonian methods to establish Quantum outcomes. Cheers! (And apologies for the length of this post.) Sears, DC, IAYT1218 NW 21st AvePortland, Oregon 97209v: 503-225-0255f: 503-525-6902www.docbones.com

[Guest guest]

Hello Vern,You are right on the money!!!! 1,000 percent as usual!Blessings,Janet

Janet L Rueger, DCCertified in CraniopathyCertified BodyTalk Practitioner149 Clear Creek Dr., # 105Ashland, OR, 97520541-690-6799bodytalk@...

On Dec 12, 2011, at 7:25 AM, Vern Saboe wrote:

Thanks Janet, we can never limit ourselves and I fully accept I for one cannot know everything about everything. Alternatively as your lobbyist and more importantly as your colleague I will always search for the truth and never allow my own personal bias realized or not stand in the way of this wonderful profession's road to advancement and that level playing field. My job as your colleague and lobbyist is to facilitate that advancement not hinder it and the goal as I say is clear a level playing field equal access to patients with equal reimbursement and cultural authority. It's so very ironic that here I am some 13 years later since I wrote my article in the then CAO trade journal about my concerns with the OBCE "Evidence-Based Practice Guidelines Committee" I had just been appointed too and here I am again just appointed by Governor Kitzhaber to the State Commission to do essentially the same thing for the State of Oregon. Here is a quote from that article again written 13-years ago, tell me if it isn't right on the money and relevant to our discussion;

"Mercy, and especially the AHCPR, evidence tables have a distinctly materialistic medical slant to them. Materialistic refers to the notion that if something cannot be perceived, measured, recorded, transformed into data and fully explained, it is epiphenomenal and thus irrelevant. In my humble opinion this has facilitated an overemphasis on data and methodology leading to medicine's obsessoion with objectiveness. Allopathic medicine's preoccupation with the double-blind crossover study and the randomized controlled trial has led to the under-treatment of many conditions and made them top heavy (costly, which is why we have managed care) due to their irrational reliance on technology. It has naturally resulted in ignoring such obscure notions/concepts as a vital force or life force. This, as we all know, has led to medicine's continued rejection of the efficacy of much of what we do. It has contributed to traditional medicine's claims that chiropractic lacks scientific proof, despite the reality that such proof is lacking in 85% of what they do. In short, the result of this mechanistic view is that our medical brethren have lost the qualities of empathy, intuition, and communication skills. They have sacrificed their humanistic qualities for hard data and deep in their souls they consider themselves to be scientists, purveyors of the truth, immune from over-involvement with their patients..."

Funny how things come full circle.....have a fantastic week......To The Continued Good Fight! Vern Saboe

[ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology (video)Dr. Carrick slays the old subluxation dragon with his scientificand philosophical swords.Standing behind him is an army of conceptual disentanglementtroops, discarding the cartesian dualism between mind and body.After hearing his lecture, will you agree that the old definitionof subluxation is 'nonsense'?< br>Here's the video: http://vimeo.com/29147713

-- Andre A. Broussard, D.C.Broussard Clinic of Chiropractic & Acupuncture6701 Aberdeen Avenue, Suite 7Lubbock, Texas 79424www.CajunChiro.netwww.DrAndreBroussardBlog.comwww.AndreBroussardDC.com______________________________________________________ACA-Members Mailing ListTo post to the list: ACA-members@...List policyNOTE: The ACA does not accept requests/inquiries through the listserv. The listserv is for peer-to-peer collaboration only. If you have an insurance-related question/concern you wish to bring to the attention of the ACA, please emailinsinfo@...Technical questions or to request to be removed from the list, please contact dmillard@...

[Guest guest]

Hi Rod, You definitely have something there ..... the difference between Faux Fibromyalgia (the Chronic Sacroiliac Syndrome) and True Fibromyalgia does seem to be the degree of the fascial involvement either through scarring or adhesions.....it's involvement and inflammation is a strong ddx'g factor....problem, we find that we need to go a far ways into stabilizing the Faux Fibro before we can 'tell' if it is True fibro or not ..... very disconcerting for my patients, often. It can take upwards of 3 - 5 weeks for us to define that difference ..... and it all hinges on the muscular activity available after the sacroiliac syndrome is quieted. Nice post, thanks for your thoughts. SunnySunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7CEugene, Oregon, 97401541- 654-0850; Fx; 541- 654-0834www.drsunnykierstyn.com hbf4747@...CC: From: rjacksondc@...Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 08:54:27 -0800Subject: Re: FW: [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology

Hi folks:Great discussion. We all approach subjects such as this colored by our own personal philosophies and technical expertise in whichever techniques we use. The commonality in every therapeutic intervention is the human body we are working on. What is it within that human framework we are striving to help that receives input from us and transmutes that input to achieve the state of healing? From my own personal leanings I would propose that the fascia, the most ubiquitous tissue in the body, is capable of being at least one of the links in the chain of elements of data transmission that takes the input from the practitioner and delivers it to what termed "the appropriate physiological networks" to achieve a positive healing response. We cannot work on the human body without intentionally or unintentionally influencing the fascial network. Research has shown the deep fascia to be richly innervated and thus capable of neurological input and guidance, at the very least in a proprioceptive role (A Histological Study of the Deep Fascia of the Upper Limb, Stecco et al, It. J. Anat. Embryol. Vol. III, n.2, 000-000, 2006). Every part of the body is invested within the fascial network. The fascia is formed first, embryologically, then the other systems of the body form within the fascial template (The Endless Web, Schultz/Feitis) and are from that point forward indivisible from the surrounding and pervading fascia. Looking deeper into the extracellular matrix (which runs throughout the body via the fascia and has been shown to be an element of informational transmission) brings us even deeper into the realm of subtle energy responses to physiological, and perhaps even psychological, therapeutic input.While watching Dr. Freeman work as I was also beginning my studies of Stecco's Fascial Manipulation, I was struck with the notion that the body responds equally well to subtle input and deep work, depending upon the person and circumstances. Herb showed me first hand that instrument adjusting is very powerful and he was working some of the very same points (superficially and gently) that Luigi Stecco uses in his work on a much deeper level. And both are working areas that are very close to the points used by traditional Chinese medicine practitioners for thousands of years.As we are beings consisting of body, mind and spirit (which, to me, are interconnected and indivisible), could it be that there are receptive/perceptive capabilities of the body that hard science is just beginning to understand and that have been utilized from time immemorial by those healers that have worked at keeping human beings healthy even before the advent of science? D.D. started his journey as a magnetic healer and discovered chiropractic along the way. B.J. took his fathers intended philosophy of healing along a parallel but somewhat different path. Palmer, DeJarnette, Gonstead, Van Rumpt, Toftness, Freeman, Feinberg and every other great chiropractor that has taken technical and philosophical ideas from our predecessors and evolved their own techniques have all found that the human body responds well to intentional input. Each technique may be extremely different but each is obviously valid, otherwise they wouldn't still be around. What seem to be widely divergent paths of modality within our own profession could be, in the grand scheme of things, so closely interrelated that the commonalities of each of our techniques - from the subtle empirical to the scientifically dissected reductionist - far outweigh the perceived differences and are simply two sides of the same coin, each working well for the intended outcome no matter which philosophical bent the practitioner comes from.Damn fine cup of coffee this morning!Rod , DCTillamook Re: FW: [ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology

Ahhh!

At long last a chorus of voices arises that makes me feel that there are still those here in Oregon who are capable of keeping the intrinsic message and vision that gave birth and vitality to our wonderful profession alive, but are also adding meaningful new life to it's content.

A heartful thanks to each of you.

Herb Freeman D.C.

[ACA-Members] Carrick, Consciousness, Neurology (video)

Dr. Carrick slays the old subluxation dragon with his scientificand philosophical swords.Standing behind him is an army of conceptual disentanglementtroops, discarding the cartesian dualism between mind and body.After hearing his lecture, will you agree that the old definitionof subluxation is 'nonsense'?< br>Here's the video: http://vimeo.com/29147713

-- Andre A. Broussard, D.C.Broussard Clinic of Chiropractic & Acupuncture6701 Aberdeen Avenue, Suite 7Lubbock, Texas 79424www.CajunChiro.netwww.DrAndreBroussardBlog.comwww.AndreBroussardDC.com

______________________________________________________ACA-Members Mailing List

To post to the list: ACA-members@...List policy

NOTE: The ACA does not accept requests/inquiries through the listserv. The listserv is for peer-to-peer collaboration only. If you have an insurance-related question/concern you wish to bring to the attention of the ACA, please emailinsinfo@...

Technical questions or to request to be removed from the list, please contact dmillard@...

Rodney G. , DC

Tillamook Natural Health Center

309 Laurel Ave.

Tillamook, OR 97141

503-842-6532