Re: synthetic fragrance

November 7, 2006

At 07:33 PM 11/7/2006, you wrote:

>I am looking for any evidence that synthetic fragrance poses

>a greater risk than essential

>oils and natural fragrances, which is proving more dificult than I

>thought. I don't need

>anything more on phthalates, but I'm trying to find hard data on any

>inherent risk from

>petroleum-derived chemicals, or other risks associated with

>synthetics, whether skin

>reactions, carcinogens or other. Please write to me offline if you

>have suggestions.

OK, here's what I pulled out of my bookmarks searching for toxic or chemical:

Here is a greenpeace article on the synth chems, on phthalates and

artificial musks:

http://www.greenpeace.org/raw/content/international/press/reports/phthalates-and\

-artificial-musk.pdf

http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/press/reports/perfume-an-investigation-of

Greenpeace's article on toxic perfumes. You have to download the PDF

to see the list and the chems them contain.

http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/health/feeds/hscout/2005/01/10/hscout523271.html

The synth musk/immune system article.

http://www.ameliaww.com/fpin/FragMatTox.htm#carcinogen

toxic/carcinogenic fragrance materials

the index for the above page: http://www.ameliaww.com/fpin/FragMatTox.htm#TOP

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/04/27/news/perfume.php newspaper article

http://www.ourlittleplace.com/chemicals.html

http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/health/feeds/hscout/2005/01/10/hscout523271.html

magazine article on artificial musks

Anya McCoy

Anya's Garden of Natural Perfume http://anyasgarden.com

Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild http://artisannaturalperfumers.org

Natural Perfumers Chat Group

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November 7, 2006

synthetics are petroleum-derived, and I'm

particularly wondering whether this is likely to

> imbue them with any toxicity <<SNIP>>

You are right on about the petroleum derived culprits, btw, .

Organic solvents remain the number one carcinogen in our consumer

products.

The National Academy of Sciences targeted fragrances as one of the

six categories of chemicals that should be given high priority for

neurotoxicity testing. The other groups include insecticides, heavy

metals, solvents, food additives and certain air pollutants. 95% of

chemicals used in fragrances are synthetic compounds derived from

petroleum. They include benzene derivatives, aldehydes, and many

other known toxics and sensitizers - capable of causing cancer, birth

defects, central nervous system disorders and allergic

reactions. " Neurotoxins: At Home and the Workplace " (Report by the

Committee on Science and Technology. U.S. House of Representatives,

Sept, 16, 1986) [Report 99-827]

A few chemicals found in fragrances known to be neurotoxic:

hexachlorophene; acetyl-ethyl-tetramethyl-tetralin; zinc-

pyridinethione; 2,4,dinitro-3-methyl-6-tert-butylanisole; 1-Butanol;

2-butanol; tert-Butanol; Isobutanol; t-Butyl Toluene. Neurotoxic

properties of chemicals found in fragrances have caused testicular

atrophy in lab animals as well as myelin disease. The myelin sheath

protects the nerves and does not regenerate. (Compiled from TOXLINE

database of fragrances industry and medical journals.)

Multiple Sclerosis, Parkinson's, Lupus, and Alzheimer's are all

neurological disorders. Dyslexia is a neurological dysfunction. Could

any of these neurological dysfunctions be caused by exposure to

neurotoxic chemicals? Symptoms are often identical to chemical

hypersensitivity. Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS) is also a

neurological dysfunction. Could fragrant fabric softeners or

detergents emitting neurotoxic chemicals cause the neurological

breakdown?

A few chemicals found in fragrances known to cause cancer and birth

defects: methylene chloride; toluene; methyl ethyl ketone; methyl

isobutyl ketone; tert Butyl; sec Butyl; benzyl chloride. (Compiled by

comparing a list of 120 fragrance chemicals from the EPA obtained

through the Freedom of Information Act and California's Prop 65 List

of Chemicals).

A few chemicals found in fragrances designated as hazardous waste

disposal chemicals: methylene chloride; toluene; meythl ethyl ketone;

methyl isobutyl ketone; ethanol; benzal chloride. These chemicals are

listed in the EPA's Code 40 of Federal Regulations, Ch 1, Section

261.33.

884 toxic substances were identified in a list (partial) of 2,983

chemicals used in the fragrance industry: " Many of these substances

are capable of causing cancer, birth defects, central nervous system

disorders, breathing and allergic reactions and Multiple Chemical

Sensitivities. " (National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health

report.)

November 7, 2006

> Andrine seems to be very tuned in to these issues, and I'm hoping

> she'll volunteer to collect the links for the Files section ;-)

You betcha Anya. It'll be my pleasure.

In health,

Andrine

November 7, 2006

> I'm really not sure how many - especially new ones - are even tested

> for safety, though much of this information may not be in the public

> domain.

>

Hey there !

What I got today from the radio show that I wrote about here is that

there are several independant groups out there that are taking on the

testing of synthetics, petroleum-derived and others (not just scent

synthetics, but all manner of synthetics that are used in homes and on

people's bodies), and that they're also GCing products to find out

what the " trade secret " mystery ingredients are so that all

ingredients of the products we buy are disclosed.

Hopefully, we can look forward to a future without those toxic

coctails like what's in Butch's Just for Men.

I think it's great that you're getting involved in this study, and I

think that all of us in this group are very fortunate that we have you

and your talents adding to our wealth of information.

In health,

Andrine

November 7, 2006

>

> > I'm really not sure how many - especially new ones - are even tested

> > for safety, though much of this information may not be in the public

> > domain.

> >

> Hey there !

>

> What I got today from the radio show that I wrote about here is that

> there are several independant groups out there that are taking on the

> testing of synthetics, petroleum-derived and others (not just scent

> synthetics, but all manner of synthetics that are used in homes and on

> people's bodies), and that they're also GCing products to find out

> what the " trade secret " mystery ingredients are so that all

> ingredients of the products we buy are disclosed.

>

> Hopefully, we can look forward to a future without those toxic

> coctails like what's in Butch's Just for Men.

>

> I think it's great that you're getting involved in this study, and I

> think that all of us in this group are very fortunate that we have you

> and your talents adding to our wealth of information.

>

> In health,

> Andrine

>

Andrine, that radio interview was extremely interesting, and I took 3 pages of

notes.A few

highlights for the record, though not all concern fragrance:

Over 95% of fragrance ingredients are benzene derivatives.

Listeners were advised to buy products that were either unscented or naturally

scented,

but to avoid synthetic fragrance altogether.

Fragrance ingredients do not (of course) have to be listed on a product label.

Less than 10% of chemicals found in household and personal care products have

been

tested for toxicity.

Some of the main products that may contain dangerous chemicals are:

Deodorants

Air fresheners

Nail polish

Cleaning products

Dryer sheets

Fabric softeners

Color cosmetics

They could also have added paints, and paint strippers etc. to this list.

Dibutyl phthalate, toluene and formaldehyde were all found in one nail polish,

and

methylene chloride was found in one baby shampoo.

8-12% of men are functionally sterile (I think this means low sperm count, not

zero) this

assumed to be due to hormone disruptor chemicals that can have effects at very

low

levels.

Testicular cancer in young men has increased 85% over the past 20 years, and is

now the

most common cancer in men.

Under " Trade secrets " protection a company need not list certain ingredients in

a personal

care product, or test them for safety. This law only exists in the US, and

clearly is of no

benefit to the consumer. It's not difficult to register with the FDA a certain

collection of

ingredients as a " trade secret " . The FDA knows what is in there, but no-one else

will.

African Americans have a 20% higher susceptibility to cancers in general.

We don't know much about the synergistic effects of the hundreds of chemicals we

may be

exposed to every day - this has not really been studied.

More information at www.safecosmetics.org.

Tisserand

November 7, 2006

synthetics are petroleum-derived, and I'm

> particularly wondering whether this is likely to

> > imbue them with any toxicity <<SNIP>>

> You are right on about the petroleum derived culprits, btw, .

> Organic solvents remain the number one carcinogen in our consumer

> products.

>

> The National Academy of Sciences targeted fragrances as one of the

> six categories of chemicals that should be given high priority for

> neurotoxicity testing. The other groups include insecticides, heavy

> metals, solvents, food additives and certain air pollutants. 95% of

> chemicals used in fragrances are synthetic compounds derived from

> petroleum. They include benzene derivatives, aldehydes, and many

> other known toxics and sensitizers - capable of causing cancer, birth

> defects, central nervous system disorders and allergic

> reactions. " Neurotoxins: At Home and the Workplace " (Report by the

> Committee on Science and Technology. U.S. House of Representatives,

> Sept, 16, 1986) [Report 99-827]

>

> A few chemicals found in fragrances known to be neurotoxic:

> hexachlorophene; acetyl-ethyl-tetramethyl-tetralin; zinc-

> pyridinethione; 2,4,dinitro-3-methyl-6-tert-butylanisole; 1-Butanol;

> 2-butanol; tert-Butanol; Isobutanol; t-Butyl Toluene. Neurotoxic

> properties of chemicals found in fragrances have caused testicular

> atrophy in lab animals as well as myelin disease. The myelin sheath

> protects the nerves and does not regenerate. (Compiled from TOXLINE

> database of fragrances industry and medical journals.)

>

> Multiple Sclerosis, Parkinson's, Lupus, and Alzheimer's are all

> neurological disorders. Dyslexia is a neurological dysfunction. Could

> any of these neurological dysfunctions be caused by exposure to

> neurotoxic chemicals? Symptoms are often identical to chemical

> hypersensitivity. Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS) is also a

> neurological dysfunction. Could fragrant fabric softeners or

> detergents emitting neurotoxic chemicals cause the neurological

> breakdown?

>

> A few chemicals found in fragrances known to cause cancer and birth

> defects: methylene chloride; toluene; methyl ethyl ketone; methyl

> isobutyl ketone; tert Butyl; sec Butyl; benzyl chloride. (Compiled by

> comparing a list of 120 fragrance chemicals from the EPA obtained

> through the Freedom of Information Act and California's Prop 65 List

> of Chemicals).

>

> A few chemicals found in fragrances designated as hazardous waste

> disposal chemicals: methylene chloride; toluene; meythl ethyl ketone;

> methyl isobutyl ketone; ethanol; benzal chloride. These chemicals are

> listed in the EPA's Code 40 of Federal Regulations, Ch 1, Section

> 261.33.

>

> 884 toxic substances were identified in a list (partial) of 2,983

> chemicals used in the fragrance industry: " Many of these substances

> are capable of causing cancer, birth defects, central nervous system

> disorders, breathing and allergic reactions and Multiple Chemical

> Sensitivities. " (National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health

> report.)

>

This is right on the nose - just the kind of thing I need. It's late now and I'm

tuning out,

but I'll look in more detail tomorrow.

Tisserand

November 8, 2006

Tisserand <tisserand@...> wrote:

>

> >I am looking for any evidence that synthetic fragrance poses

> >a greater risk than essential

> >oils and natural fragrances, which is proving more dificult than I

> >thought. I don't need>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>

> >petroleum-derived chemicals, or other risks associated with

> >synthetics, whether skin

> >reactions, carcinogens or other. Please write to me offline if you

> >have suggestions.

> >

> > Tisserand

>

> I'm hoping they'll reply here, , we're long overdue for such an

> entry in the Files section. I have quite a bit of websites to send

> you to, and I'll post them in a bit. Andrine seems to be very tuned

> in to these issues, and I'm hoping she'll volunteer to collect the

> links for the Files section ;-)

>

> Anya McCoy

Yes, of course post here - I was just thinking of not cluttering the site with

this stuff, but

I'm pleased to hear it is of general interest. I have heard anecdotally that 95%

of fragrance

synthetics are petroleum-derived, and I'm particularly wondering whether this is

likely to

imbue them with any toxicity, since most of the many ingredients of unrefined

petroleum

are pretty toxic, and some may remain as " impurities " . There may be other issues

with

synthetics too. I'm really not sure how many - especially new ones - are even

tested for

safety, though much of this information may not be in the public domain.

Anya hi

Can you tell me what they use in central heating oil whether there is any

similarities to components in that and what they use in perfume ..... if there

is I can give you case study on this one from my experience from weavers

cottage in yorkshire and an incident that happened there.

let me know guys

Janita

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

November 8, 2006

> <snip>... that radio interview was extremely interesting, and I

> took 3 pages of notes.

Right on ! Also, check out the files and links for our group.

As Anya requested, I added some pertinent info. The files are in a

folder called (duh) The Toxic Files, and the links are in a folder

called (duh again) The Toxic Links. I suppose I should make an

announcement, but I'm gettin' rummy -- too much parfume mixed with

election coverage. Anya (bein' on the other coast) is up way before I

am -- maybe she'll make the announcement while I'm still sleeping. If

not, I'll do it in the morning. Okay -- it IS the morning -- I mean

I'll do it when I get up.

....Because knowledge is power...

Andrine

November 8, 2006

>

> >I am looking for any evidence that synthetic fragrance poses

> >a greater risk than essential

> >oils and natural fragrances, which is proving more dificult than I

> >thought. I don't need

> >anything more on phthalates, but I'm trying to find hard data on any

> >inherent risk from

> >petroleum-derived chemicals, or other risks associated with

> >synthetics, whether skin

> >reactions, carcinogens or other. Please write to me offline if you

> >have suggestions.

>

> OK, here's what I pulled out of my bookmarks searching for toxic or chemical:

>

> Here is a greenpeace article on the synth chems, on phthalates and

> artificial musks:

>

http://www.greenpeace.org/raw/content/international/press/reports/phthalates-and\

-

artificial-musk.pdf

>

> http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/press/reports/perfume-an-investigation-of

> Greenpeace's article on toxic perfumes. You have to download the PDF

> to see the list and the chems them contain.

>

http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/health/feeds/hscout/2005/01/10/hscout523271.html

> The synth musk/immune system article.

>

> http://www.ameliaww.com/fpin/FragMatTox.htm#carcinogen

> toxic/carcinogenic fragrance materials

>

> the index for the above page: http://www.ameliaww.com/fpin/FragMatTox.htm#TOP

>

> http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/04/27/news/perfume.php newspaper article

>

> http://www.ourlittleplace.com/chemicals.html

>

http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/health/feeds/hscout/2005/01/10/hscout523271.html

> magazine article on artificial musks

>

> Anya McCoy

>

This is great Anya, and I will check them out tomorrow - actually it's today

now. I have

been busy building a large, square container to make leaf mulch in my garden, as

we get

so many leaves and I'm effectively paying someone to take them away each week.

We have

about 20 huge oak trees and a few sycamores. Also 50 lime trees, but they don't

shed. I

have also been busy this week making limeade, lime pickle and candied lime peel

dipped

in dark chocolate. Lime marmalade next, and maybe some margaritas.

Tisserand

November 8, 2006

>>

> This is great Anya, and I will check them out tomorrow - actually

> it's today now. I have

> been busy building a large, square container to make leaf mulch in

> my garden, as we get

> so many leaves and I'm effectively paying someone to take them away

> each week. We have

> about 20 huge oak trees and a few sycamores. Also 50 lime trees,

> but they don't shed. I

> have also been busy this week making limeade, lime pickle and

> candied lime peel dipped

> in dark chocolate. Lime marmalade next, and maybe some margaritas.

>

> Tisserand

>

where do you live robert?

i am coming over....

xoxoxo

L

November 8, 2006

Tisserand <tisserand@...> wrote:

>

> >I am looking for any evidence that synthetic fragrance poses

> >a greater risk than essential

> >oils and natural fragrances, which is proving more dificult than I

> >thought. I don't need

> >anything more on phthalates, but I'm trying to find hard data on any

> >inherent risk from

> >petroleum-derived chemicals, or other risks associated with

> >synthetics, whether skin

> >reactions, carcinogens or other. Please write to me offline if you

> >have suggestions.

>

,

I know you have a lot to look at now but I wanted to include one more link to

the Feingold association's information on fragrance. The Feingold Assn is

mainly about children's behavioral reactions to salicilates and

petroleum-derived additives in foods. My family is on the Feingold diet because

my daughter has Tourette syndrome and other issues. Her symptoms are mostly

controlled as long as we keep her away from chemical food additives (very

difficult to do even in health food stores). The FA compiles a great deal of

info about cosmetic products as well.

www.feingold.org/research-pg.html

---------------------------------

Check out the all-new - Fire up a more powerful email and get things

done faster.

November 8, 2006

>

> >>

> > This is great Anya, and I will check them out tomorrow - actually

> > it's today now. I have

> > been busy building a large, square container to make leaf mulch in

> > my garden, as we get

> > so many leaves and I'm effectively paying someone to take them away

> > each week. We have

> > about 20 huge oak trees and a few sycamores. Also 50 lime trees,

> > but they don't shed. I

> > have also been busy this week making limeade, lime pickle and

> > candied lime peel dipped

> > in dark chocolate. Lime marmalade next, and maybe some margaritas.

> >

> > Tisserand

> >

> where do you live robert?

> i am coming over....

>

> xoxoxo

>

> L

>

Ojai California, and it's be HOT the last few days. And thanks, I could use some

help in the

back yard!

November 8, 2006

> > >I am looking for any evidence that synthetic fragrance poses

> > >a greater risk than essential

> > >oils and natural fragrances, which is proving more dificult than I

> > >thought. I don't need

> > >anything more on phthalates, but I'm trying to find hard data on any

> > >inherent risk from

> > >petroleum-derived chemicals, or other risks associated with

> > >synthetics, whether skin

> > >reactions, carcinogens or other. Please write to me offline if you

> > >have suggestions.

> >

>

> ,

> I know you have a lot to look at now but I wanted to include one more link to

the

Feingold association's information on fragrance. The Feingold Assn is mainly

about

children's behavioral reactions to salicilates and petroleum-derived additives

in foods. My

family is on the Feingold diet because my daughter has Tourette syndrome and

other

issues. Her symptoms are mostly controlled as long as we keep her away from

chemical

food additives (very difficult to do even in health food stores). The FA

compiles a great

deal of info about cosmetic products as well.

>

> www.feingold.org/research-pg.html

>

Thanks , I have seen this before but there is some very good material here.

The

selection of papers seems somewhat random, but I can see what they are trying to

do.

Tisserand

November 8, 2006

>

> >I am looking for any evidence that synthetic fragrance poses

> >a greater risk than essential

> >oils and natural fragrances, which is proving more dificult than I

> >thought. I don't need

> >anything more on phthalates, but I'm trying to find hard data on any

> >inherent risk from

> >petroleum-derived chemicals, or other risks associated with

> >synthetics, whether skin

> >reactions, carcinogens or other. Please write to me offline if you

> >have suggestions.

>

> OK, here's what I pulled out of my bookmarks searching for toxic or chemical:

>

> Here is a greenpeace article on the synth chems, on phthalates and

> artificial musks:

>

http://www.greenpeace.org/raw/content/international/press/reports/phthalates-and\

-

artificial-musk.pdf

>

I had not seen this paper - excellent material.

> http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/press/reports/perfume-an-investigation-of

> Greenpeace's article on toxic perfumes. You have to download the PDF

> to see the list and the chems them contain.

>

I love the title of this one: " L'Eau de Toxines "

>

http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/health/feeds/hscout/2005/01/10/hscout523271.html

> The synth musk/immune system article.

>

The original article is at: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?

artid=1253704 & blobtype=pdf

> http://www.ameliaww.com/fpin/FragMatTox.htm#carcinogen

> toxic/carcinogenic fragrance materials

>

Lots of information here. Judging from the few natural materials listed, I would

say that

this is not very carefully considered - we know for instance that limonene is

not toxic to

human kidneys, and coumarin is not carcinogenic to humans, though they are

listed here

as being so in animals, with no reference to human risk.

> the index for the above page: http://www.ameliaww.com/fpin/FragMatTox.htm#TOP

>

> http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/04/27/news/perfume.php newspaper article

>

Nice summary

> http://www.ourlittleplace.com/chemicals.html

I would say that the information here is scaremongering, and is very misleading.

To say,

for instance, that linalool " causes cns disorder " because it causes very mild

sedation is an

attempt to see risk where there is none. Linalool is found in almost every

essential oil by

the way.

>

http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/health/feeds/hscout/2005/01/10/hscout523271.html

> magazine article on artificial musks

>

> Anya McCoy

>

November 8, 2006

> I have also been busy this week making limeade, lime pickle and

> candied lime peel dipped in dark chocolate. Lime marmalade next, and

> maybe some margaritas.

>

> Tisserand

Ya know -- you can't send out this kind of info without getting

us all het up for lime everything. This is an open invitation for all

of us to come over to your place and join in the lime

extravaganza... ;-)

Sometimes I wish I lived in warm climes -- Anya's garden makes me

drool and I can't help but feel a slight twinge of envy when

writes about his narcissus. But then I look at all of the mushrooms

and doug firs and our incredible native berries, and think of our

comfortable summers, and I decide to stay put. For now...

Andrine

November 8, 2006

synthetics are petroleum-derived, and I'm

> particularly wondering whether this is likely to

> > imbue them with any toxicity <<SNIP>>

> You are right on about the petroleum derived culprits, btw, .

> Organic solvents remain the number one carcinogen in our consumer

> products.

>

> The National Academy of Sciences targeted fragrances as one of the

> six categories of chemicals that should be given high priority for

> neurotoxicity testing. The other groups include insecticides, heavy

> metals, solvents, food additives and certain air pollutants. 95% of

> chemicals used in fragrances are synthetic compounds derived from

> petroleum. They include benzene derivatives, aldehydes, and many

> other known toxics and sensitizers - capable of causing cancer, birth

> defects, central nervous system disorders and allergic

> reactions. " Neurotoxins: At Home and the Workplace " (Report by the

> Committee on Science and Technology. U.S. House of Representatives,

> Sept, 16, 1986) [Report 99-827]

>

> A few chemicals found in fragrances known to be neurotoxic:

> hexachlorophene; acetyl-ethyl-tetramethyl-tetralin; zinc-

> pyridinethione; 2,4,dinitro-3-methyl-6-tert-butylanisole; 1-Butanol;

> 2-butanol; tert-Butanol; Isobutanol; t-Butyl Toluene. Neurotoxic

> properties of chemicals found in fragrances have caused testicular

> atrophy in lab animals as well as myelin disease. The myelin sheath

> protects the nerves and does not regenerate. (Compiled from TOXLINE

> database of fragrances industry and medical journals.)

>

> Multiple Sclerosis, Parkinson's, Lupus, and Alzheimer's are all

> neurological disorders. Dyslexia is a neurological dysfunction. Could

> any of these neurological dysfunctions be caused by exposure to

> neurotoxic chemicals? Symptoms are often identical to chemical

> hypersensitivity. Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS) is also a

> neurological dysfunction. Could fragrant fabric softeners or

> detergents emitting neurotoxic chemicals cause the neurological

> breakdown?

>

> A few chemicals found in fragrances known to cause cancer and birth

> defects: methylene chloride; toluene; methyl ethyl ketone; methyl

> isobutyl ketone; tert Butyl; sec Butyl; benzyl chloride. (Compiled by

> comparing a list of 120 fragrance chemicals from the EPA obtained

> through the Freedom of Information Act and California's Prop 65 List

> of Chemicals).

>

> A few chemicals found in fragrances designated as hazardous waste

> disposal chemicals: methylene chloride; toluene; meythl ethyl ketone;

> methyl isobutyl ketone; ethanol; benzal chloride. These chemicals are

> listed in the EPA's Code 40 of Federal Regulations, Ch 1, Section

> 261.33.

>

> 884 toxic substances were identified in a list (partial) of 2,983

> chemicals used in the fragrance industry: " Many of these substances

> are capable of causing cancer, birth defects, central nervous system

> disorders, breathing and allergic reactions and Multiple Chemical

> Sensitivities. " (National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health

> report.)

>

I think the full piece that this came from was " Making Sense of Scents " , which

can be found

at:

http://users.lmi.net/~wilworks/ehnmsofs.htm

and has more of the same.

Tisserand

November 8, 2006

> > I have also been busy this week making limeade, lime pickle and

> > candied lime peel dipped in dark chocolate. Lime marmalade next, and

> > maybe some margaritas.

> >

> > Tisserand

>

> Ya know -- you can't send out this kind of info without getting

> us all het up for lime everything. This is an open invitation for all

> of us to come over to your place and join in the lime

> extravaganza... ;-)

>

> Sometimes I wish I lived in warm climes -- Anya's garden makes me

> drool and I can't help but feel a slight twinge of envy when

> writes about his narcissus. But then I look at all of the mushrooms

> and doug firs and our incredible native berries, and think of our

> comfortable summers, and I decide to stay put. For now...

>

> Andrine

>

I just hate to see all those delicious limes fall off the trees and rot - most

of them still do -

hard to imagine why someone would want so many lime trees, rather than oranges,

tangerines, lemons - some of each would have been great - maybe I'll try

grafting

sometime. Winter here is very short, if you can even call it winter. Well, we

get some snow

on the peaks around the valley sometimes. After living in sun-starved England

for 50 years

I'm not complaining - I like it hot. Though 90 in November is pretty crazy. I

also have

some giant birds of paradise out the back - not fragrant, just trying to make

you more

jealous..

T.

November 8, 2006

..>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Winter here is very short, if you can even call it winter. Well, we get some

snow

on the peaks around the valley sometimes. After living in sun-starved England

for 50 years

I'm not complaining - I like it hot. Though 90 in November is pretty crazy. I

also have

some giant birds of paradise out the back - not fragrant, just trying to make

you more

jealous..

T.

Hi R & A

Well I am in Wales where the frost is crunchy and beautiful in the morning at

the moment..... then sunny during day...... getting misty and foggy early

evenings ..... the squirells are squirelling, chestnuts are falling off the

trees...... colours of leaves turning reds, yellows and oranges.... canoe season

finished white water starting. Hay on Fire a couple of weekends ago on the

river complete with drummers, dancers and a massive firework display .....

yellow lighted street lamps.....apple season in full swing all

generics....magic.....

....... I keep getting side tracked ..... I must go ....

janita

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

November 8, 2006

--- " Andrine C. Olson-Kirschenman "

<midvale808@...> wrote:

>

> > I have also been busy this week making limeade,

> lime pickle

,

Is this the wonderful, spicy Indian lime pickle or

something else? I would love to have a recipe for the

stuff. Have you made lime sorbet? A little ginger

gives it a really nice kick.

> Sometimes I wish I lived in warm climes -- Anya's

> garden makes me

> drool

Andrine,

I know exactly what you mean. When Anya mentioned she

had so many ripe pineapples that she was giving them

to her neighbors, I was drooling! But I would miss

the gorgeous, crisp fall days we've been having here

and soon I'll be sledding with my kids and throwing

snowballs! I have thought a lot about running away to

Ojai one of these days...

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

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