Re: Another question for the group-mind. Which oils age well?

[Guest guest]

>

> OK - here's another one, if you don't mind about oils that improve or worsen

with age.

> Think I asked it once years ago here.

>

> Before I ask, I am NOT looking for generalizations because I am definitely

aware that

they

> don't exist. The one-line answer is " it depends " . What I hope to find out is

WHAT it

> depends on, and specific information or experiences with specific oils.

>

> What got me thinking about this was information on Turkish rose oil on Butch

Owens'

site,

> where I read that rose otto improves with age (something I have read and heard

> elsewhere). This surprises me, because I was over-generalizing that " floral

oils should

be

> fresh " (narrow-minded thinking, in retrospect). I also picked up from " a

perfumer "

(really)

> that aged osmanthus oils were better than fresh ones. He said something like

" oh, well

a

> nicely aged osmanthus oil would be better " in response to a question I had

about the

> aroma of a batch of osmanthus absolute.

>

> I know that oils like sandalwood, patchouli, possibly vetivert, and agarwood

improve

with

> age (up to a point, I imagine). I also know that citrus oils go bad really

quickly.

>

> Can anyone lead me to a list or provide information on oils that are generally

believed to

> improve with age, and those that go downhill fast?

>

> Some I am curious about, for example: jasmine absolute, tuberose absolute,

geranium

> essential oil, rosemary oil, lavender oil, frankincense CO2, resinoids, and

essential oils.

>

> Thanks to anyone who, for whatever reason, is kind enough to spend a minute of

their

> time answering my random questions!

Well, one of the factors this depends on is how old is old. I don't believe that

there are

more than 3 or 4 oils that improve with age over several years, and even with

patchouli

etc, there has to come a time when deterioration of odour sets in. As you say,

up to a

point. Personally I have never seen a sandalwood that I think has improved over

a period

of years.

Lavender oil is said to improve over the first 2-3 months following distillation

- when it

loses it's rather raw " still note " (though some like this), but after that I

would maintain that

it degrades in every respect. Some other raw materials may improve over a short

period of

time (this is subjective anyway, and depends on whether loss of top notes and

perhaps in

increase in roundness is seen as an improvement!) but most materials that are

more than

a year old are on a downhill slope.

I have binned a great many that lost fragrance integrity with age. These include

frankincense oil, frankincense CO2, rosemary oil, geranium oil, jasmine absolute

and

tuberose absolute. Most frankincense and rosemary oils are fairly high in

pinenes, which

quite rapidly oxidise and degrade.

From a safety point of view, fresher oils are almost always preferable to aged

oils. This is

because oxidation and other processes of degradation often lead to beakdown

products

that are skin sensitizers (I'm sure I said this a couple of days ago, but it

probably bears

repeating.)

[Guest guest]

>Personally I have never seen a sandalwood that I think has improved over a

period

> of years.

>

Now that's interesting - I have heard the opposite, and a lot of hype (?) about

aged

sandalwoods.

I do know that sandalwood exposed to oxygen develops what I think are

acetate-like

aromas (tart/vinegar/sharp - not sure what adjective to use or if " acetate " is

the correct

term). This really develops around the mouth of bottles that are not cleaned

and stored

well.

Also, I am not responding to you personally, now, just speculating randomly and

would

love to hear anyone's knowledge or experience. I know there are people here who

have

experimented with oils to a degree that is hard to imagine. I imagine the

natural

perfuemrs working to maintain consistent aromas over a few years with whatever

their

stock is... I guess this is where you really test consistency of oils.

CAVEAT: [i am a rank amateur with limited experience talking about " my

experiences " so

if they seem screwy, well, my sample size is pretty small.]

My experience is so limited... I know what essnetial oil retailers tell me

(replace your stock

frequently) and what I've read in a number of books (a number I could count on

one hand

with fingers to spare... Poucher, Arctander, a couple of others).

I could swear, though, that my stored sandalwoods have improved greatly since

they were

distilled, though this could just be because I am looking for improvement. This

is true in

the stock bottles I keep oxygen free and even true in the small bottle I carry

around with

me (lots of oxygen, body heat, agitation - an oil's worst nightmare).

Conversely, I actually LOVE what I guess would be the fresh still note in

distilled rose oils.

Rose oil in my experience really settles down over the course of a year... it

becomes more

refined, predictable, one-dimensional (?) but somehow less evocative and

intriguing. Oy...

this is starting to sound like BS, but these have been consistent experiences

for me over

the last ten years or so.

[Guest guest]

At 07:24 PM 8/5/2006, you wrote:

>What got me thinking about this was information on Turkish rose oil on

>Butch Owens' site,

>where I read that rose otto improves with age (something I have read and

>heard

>elsewhere). This surprises me, because I was over-generalizing that

> " floral oils should be

>fresh " (narrow-minded thinking, in retrospect). I also picked up from " a

>perfumer " (really)

>that aged osmanthus oils were better than fresh ones. He said something

>like " oh, well a

>nicely aged osmanthus oil would be better " in response to a question I had

>about the

>aroma of a batch of osmanthus absolute.

I see that has answered this, and I cede to him his vast knowledge

and level of experience with oils, etc.

I will share my observations, going back some years.

I have a May 89 Turkish rose otto. At first, it had quite a woody

scent,which has mellowed over the years. Superior? No, I think it just

settled down to what it was supposed to be, so I'd use Butch's term

" improved " . We spoke recently of the yucky " still note " of fresh lavender,

and it seems several oils do have them.

Ditto the osmanthus, I suppose, even though it's an absolute, not an oil.

Fresh osmanthus can have a sharp edge, and when that disappears, a truly

lovely fragrance appears.

>I know that oils like sandalwood, patchouli, possibly vetivert, and

>agarwood improve with

>age (up to a point, I imagine). I also know that citrus oils go bad

>really quickly.

Citrus, the blue azulene oils and a few other. Early, haven't had coffee

yet, and names elude me.

Now, as far as perfumes go, because it's the finished product we're all

concerned with here ;-)

The alcohol stabilizes and preserves them. Hallelujiah. That's why some of

us adore vintage perfumes, because if they've been stored properly, the

juice inside is wonderful.

Arctander warns, for instance, that ambrette seed EO and abs have a

tendency to go rancid due to some fatty acid or other (don't quote me on

the last bit), so you need to top it off with alcohol, or dilute it to

ensure freshness. He says that doesn't happen with the tinctured seed,

because, of course, it's in alcohol already.

HTH.

Anya

http://anyasgarden.com Parfums Natural

http://artisannaturalperfumers.com The Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild

http://.com The premier site on Natural Perfume

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Biggest, most dynamic natural perfumery chat group

[Guest guest]

>> I see that has answered this, and I cede to him his vast knowledge

> and level of experience with oils, etc.

>

That's another thing about being pretty much a newb here... I don't know who

anyone is

around here, or who it is I'm talking to. Example: " who " is ?

I don't think people should be treated differently or anything because of

relative fame or

status, but it is nice to know whether I'm talking to someone with years or

decades of

deep experience or someone with sophomoric knowledge, like myself. By

sophomoric I

mean knowing enough to think you know something but not really knowing how

little you

know (which is the true knowing, eh?). ??

>

> The alcohol stabilizes and preserves them. Hallelujiah. That's why some of

> us adore vintage perfumes, because if they've been stored properly, the

> juice inside is wonderful.

>

Well, this makes sense. It had crossed my mind that adding some alcohol to an

essential

oil might in some way alter the way it matured, but I didn't know if this was a

good idea or

not. There must be some oils that this works better for than others... like I

have read that

sandalwood has relatively low solubility in alcohol compared to other oils. So

I wonder if

you had a ration of 75% sandalwood to 25% alcohol, if this would mix. Or are we

now

talking about how soluble ALCOHOL is in sandalwood? Now I have confused myself.

> Arctander warns, for instance, that ambrette seed EO and abs have a

> tendency to go rancid due to some fatty acid or other (don't quote me on

> the last bit), so you need to top it off with alcohol, or dilute it to

> ensure freshness. He says that doesn't happen with the tinctured seed,

> because, of course, it's in alcohol already.

>

> HTH.

>

My experience as well. Had some ambrette seed oil that definitely had " bad

canola oil "

notes to my nose (I don't think there was ACTUALLY canola oil). Rancidity is

something i

need to figure out... I know it applies to fixed oils, but I guess it is just a

peculiar aroma

they develop when they oxidize due to their particular chemistry... fatty acids

and glycerol

and all that. I would wager that a CO2 extract of ambrette would be very likely

to turn

rancid since there is no distillation involved and some of those big heavy fat

molecules get

in there.

Thanks, Anya! I appreciate your generosity with time and info!