Re: A surprising turnabout from Luca Turin on Natural Perfumery

[Guest guest]

At 02:58 PM 4/3/2006, you wrote:

>This is the current edition of his monthly article for NZZ Folio:

>

>http://www-x.nzz.ch/folio/curr/articles/parfum_engl.html

Expected. I'm not surprised at all. We were at the forefront of the

movement, challenging his belief system.

After the firestorm of his inept and rigid " review " of the perfumes I sent

him, he actually took time to consider a new art form is evolving. Proves

he isn't the dinosaur he appeared to be, and that's a good thing ;-) There

is an interesting thread evolving on Andy Tauer's blog. Last week, I called

Andy a closet hippie, lol.

I can't tell you how much of a non-event his December rant was on my

group. Wonderfully secure, forward-thinking artists, we just figured since

he is stuck in the Old Mode, well, he doesn't understand the New World.

This crack in his belief system may be due more to him trying to adapt than

natural perfumery needing his blessing. Amen.

And for that evolution, I say bravo to him!

PS I'm convinced his grudging acceptance of the concept of NP won't matter

to us, either ;-)

Anya

http://.com

The premier site on the Web to discover the beauty of Natural Perfume

/

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[Guest guest]

> From: " cdvoyles " <cdvoyles@...>

> Reply-

> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 18:58:53 -0000

>

> Subject: A surprising turnabout from Luca Turin on Natural

> Perfumery

>

> This is the current edition of his monthly article for NZZ Folio:

>

> http://www-x.nzz.ch/folio/curr/articles/parfum_engl.html

Ooh La La! I love it. Tres Bien.

It is an encouraging challenge to natural perfumers and a poke at the large

perfume houses to step up to the plate and deliver better.

Dorothy

Dorothy McCall, Cert. Aroma.

Kingsbury Fragrances

The Royal York

3955 Bigelow Blvd. Ste. 907

Pittsburgh, PA. 15213

(412) 687-2720

www.kingsburyfragrances.com

" Vibrating aromatic threads speak of the Divine through tapestries of scent "

Dorothy McCall Cert. Aroma.

[Guest guest]

>

> This is the current edition of his monthly article for NZZ Folio:

>

> http://www-x.nzz.ch/folio/curr/articles/parfum_engl.html

>

I think LT is showing signs of overload, overdose and the beginning of

cirrhosis from exposure to aroma chemicals. He*s starting to wake up

in the morning feeling nauseous and disgusted from not being able to

wash off his wrist the last perfume he tried on containing

Butyl Methoxydibenzoylmethane or Butylphenyl Methylpropional or is it

Ethylhexyl Methoxycinnamate or maybe

Hydroxysohexyl 3-Cyclohexene Carboxaldehyde

[Guest guest]

-- In , " n Bichar "

<bicharjulien@...> wrote:

>

>

> >

> > " This is the current edition of his monthly article for NZZ

Folio:

> >

> > http://www-x.nzz.ch/folio/curr/articles/parfum_engl.html

> >

>

> I think LT is showing signs of overload, overdose and the

beginning of

> cirrhosis from exposure to aroma chemicals. He*s starting to wake

up

> in the morning feeling nauseous and disgusted from not being able

to

> wash off his wrist the last perfume he tried on containing

> Butyl Methoxydibenzoylmethane or Butylphenyl Methylpropional or is

it

> Ethylhexyl Methoxycinnamate or maybe

> Hydroxysohexyl 3-Cyclohexene Carboxaldehyde "

>

n, you are too funny!

[Guest guest]

> How many times did I explain in his blog that we used doppelganger accords

> for violet and lilac flower, and ambrette seed for musk? Still he persists

> in libeling the perfumers. One used a naturally-derived alpha-ionone (don't

> trust me on the name) made from Cassie and he bleated it was the chem.

LT stated that he smelled 'alpha methyl ionone', not alpha ionone. There is a

big

difference: alpha ionone is found in nature; alpha methyl ionone is not.

http://www.takasago.com/aboutus/business/aromachem/46.htm

[Guest guest]

At 12:52 PM 4/6/2006, you wrote:

>

>

> > How many times did I explain in his blog that we used doppelganger accords

> > for violet and lilac flower, and ambrette seed for musk? Still he persists

> > in libeling the perfumers. One used a naturally-derived alpha-ionone

> (don't

> > trust me on the name) made from Cassie and he bleated it was the chem.

>

>LT stated that he smelled 'alpha methyl ionone', not alpha ionone. There

>is a big

>difference: alpha ionone is found in nature; alpha methyl ionone is not.

Yes, that was it! Well, it was alpha ionone and I know the supplier she got

it from, and it's from the cassie flower. Wouldn't be the first time he was

wrong -- eg, on our doppelgangers, and the aromatherapist issue. Don't

forget he also said no rose oil smelled like real roses. He's used to

smelling only synths, and scent stripped stuff. He has probably never

diluted down absolutes and such to see their true nature revealed. JMHO, of

course, but my theory re: the rose comment.

Anya

http://.com

The premier site on the Web to discover the beauty of Natural Perfume

/

Join to study natural perfumery

[Guest guest]

> Don't forget he also said no rose oil smelled like real roses. He's used to

> smelling only synths, and scent stripped stuff. He has probably never

> diluted down absolutes and such to see their true nature revealed. JMHO, of

> course, but my theory re: the rose comment.

Let's go back to what he said..

" The very existence of perfumery is due to the natural raw materials being

such poor replicas of the real thing. If rose oil really smelled of roses, the

perfumer would merely hang her head in shame and give up. Instead, her

task is to mix these gnarled, cooked, mangled bits of dried-up live things

and, much like an embalmer, give them the bloom of life once again. " -LT

Notice that he states _ " rose oil " _, not " rose absolute " . Rose oil, (distilled)

thanks to the steam and heat, is missing many important constituents

(PEA, for one).

He later goes on to explain -

" Find me a rose oil that smells like a live rose. They do not, and cannot,

because the extraction process a) extracts aroma chemicals in proportions

totally different from those parts of the flower that give the headspace and

the harsh solvents and high temperatures damage many of the more

fragile components. CO2 extraction (for dry stuff) and especially

Wilde's low-temp extraction methods go a long way to redress this.

But to answer your question: not chopped liver, but rose liqueur. " -LT

I'm confused why you're having so much trouble with this.

The chemical content of -Rose Oil- _Is Not The Same_ as the headspace

above a living rose. It is _Changed_ during the extraction process.

He also clarifies that there are newer processes that are better - but you've

seemingly ignored this statement from him.

Until you can prove that he is wrong, that the chemical content of rose oil

is exactly the same as the headspace of a living rose, perhaps you should

stop accusing him of ineptitude. JMHO

[Guest guest]

> Somebody, quick, blindfold Murray and waft some rose oil under his nose.

Yes.

Blindfold me, let me smell a live rose, let me smell some rose oil.

I'll be able to tell the difference.

You wouldn't?

[Guest guest]

At 08:35 PM 4/6/2006, you wrote:

>

> > Somebody, quick, blindfold Murray and waft some rose oil under his nose.

>

>Yes.

>

>Blindfold me, let me smell a live rose, let me smell some rose oil.

>

>I'll be able to tell the difference.

>

>You wouldn't?

I could probably tell you what country it was from and how long it sat

before processing. Rose oil does smell like rose. Turin wiggled and then

raised the bar to live rose. Big woo. A rose is a rose...in all its forms.

If you reread his defensive posturing and unsteady platform in attacking

natural perfumery, you would see he was grasping at straws. Live straws, I

guess.

Anya

http://.com

The premier site on the Web to discover the beauty of Natural Perfume

/

Join to study natural perfumery

[Guest guest]

At 07:47 PM 4/6/2006, you wrote:

>You guys and gals love Dr. Turin, he is such an easy target, almost a

>straw man.

Yes, , he truly is. He constantly sets himself up. He's alienated most

of the French perfumery industry, which once welcomed him with open arms.

He just doesn't get it, and he is an easy target at this point. Perhaps his

new book, due out this month will regain him some stature. At least among

his fans.

>I like synthetics, I think this " evil synthetics " mindset is silly. I

>am loath to mention this though in a thread where there is mention of

>Dr. Turin because I will be tarred with the same brush.

Not at all. There are many here who use synthetics, and as long as they

don't push it in our faces, or, as Liz said earlier, try to " talk DDT in an

organic gardening forum " , that's OK.

>I enjoy reading Dr. Turin's florid fragrance reviews but I am surprised

>that there are people who take him seriously.

Cher, he takes himself so seriously, it's fun!

>It is beyond me why people care the slightest about Dr. Turin's

>opinions. Yet the discussion about what he said or didn't say just goes

>on; is this indicative of a bit of insecurity?

When he libels you, get back to us with your response. When he " nicks " your

writings, as he has done mine, get back to us. Nothing insecure at all,

quite the opposite. I *will* publish a response to his libel and use of my

concepts. On the discussion overall, starting in December - Opinions are

one thing -- the perfumers ignored his swipes at them. The ongoing slander

and blatant inaccuracies are signs of something deeper in him, and not

being a psychologist, I have no idea what it is. Perhaps you can offer a

suggestion.

Anya

http://.com

The premier site on the Web to discover the beauty of Natural Perfume

/

Join to study natural perfumery

[Guest guest]

> >

> >Blindfold me, let me smell a live rose, let me smell some rose oil.

> >

> >I'll be able to tell the difference.

> >

> >You wouldn't?

>

> I could probably tell you what country it was from and how long it sat

> before processing. Rose oil does smell like rose. Turin wiggled and

> then

> raised the bar to live rose. Big woo. A rose is a rose...in all its

> forms.

>

Anya,

impressive...babe

you sound fun for a party....i'm officially inviting you....

to my next one...where do you live?

L

[Guest guest]

At 08:59 PM 4/6/2006, you wrote:

> > I could probably tell you what country it was from and how long it sat

> > before processing. Rose oil does smell like rose. Turin wiggled and

> > then

> > raised the bar to live rose. Big woo. A rose is a rose...in all its

> > forms.

> >

>

>Anya,

>

>

>impressive...babe

Nah, there are folks that can tell from what side of a valley the stuff

came! I'm just fair to middlin, but after a lot of years, I'm humble enough

to know many exceed me in their ability to pinpoint sources. Mostly,

they're folks who have traveled to the regions and been very active in the

business, on the supply end, for years.

>you sound fun for a party....i'm officially inviting you....

>

>

>to my next one...where do you live?

party central - Miami. BTW, I've hosted lots of parties, starting back in

the 70's, like the one you had the other night. In 76, between the oils and

attars from an LA-based company that imported from India, and Penn Herb, I

built my collection up to about 70 aromatics. They always came out at

parties, and everybody got dabbed and played with them.

Then I got a little more careful, due to cost, safety and other reasons,

and usually just do one-on-ones now, sniffers, not too much dabbing.

Anya

http://.com

The premier site on the Web to discover the beauty of Natural Perfume

/

Join to study natural perfumery

[Guest guest]

>

> When he libels you, get back to us with your response. When

> he " nicks " your writings, as he has done mine, get back to us.

> Nothing insecure at all, quite the opposite. I *will* publish a

> response to his libel and use of my concepts. On the discussion

> overall, starting in December - Opinions are

> one thing -- the perfumers ignored his swipes at them. The ongoing

> slander and blatant inaccuracies are signs of something deeper in

> him, and not being a psychologist, I have no idea what it is.

> Perhaps you can offer a suggestion.

>

Quite true, it was not my ox that was gored. But, for an analogy,

when you go to a comedy club, sit at a table in the front and the

comic on the stage starts asking you personal questions, what do you

expect; that he actually cares about you? No, the fellow is going to

use the information to make cruel jokes at your expense. It is what

stand up comics do.

Why people take Turin's fragrance reviews seriously is beyond me but

you are right; some people do. Over at POL there are people who are

seriously worried that someone (such as me) might insult Turin

(again) and he will be so hurt that he will no longer grace them with

his presence.

[Guest guest]

At 03:56 PM 4/7/2006, you wrote:

> >

>Quite true, it was not my ox that was gored. But, for an analogy,

>when you go to a comedy club, sit at a table in the front and the

>comic on the stage starts asking you personal questions, what do you

>expect; that he actually cares about you? No, the fellow is going to

>use the information to make cruel jokes at your expense. It is what

>stand up comics do.

Oh, , truthfully, I think we're all sick to death of the subject, and

your analogy is just a bit off, well, off enough to make this thread jump

the shark, lol.

Anya

http://.com

The premier site on the Web to discover the beauty of Natural Perfume

/

Join to study natural perfumery

[Guest guest]

Maggi Quinlan, Ph.D.

<I like synthetics, I think this " evil synthetics " mindset is silly.>

hi david,

i'm glad you like synthetics. unfortunately my mindset in opposition to

them is not silly. it is a serious allergic response that can only be

described as feeling like an ax has been inserted into my forehead whenever

i come into contact with synthetic scents.

I worked with synths for years, making incense and blends from FO's before i

knew better. too late by time i did. my body developed a severe aversion.

actually, it is a great blessing, because no one can fool me by saying

something is natural when it is not. my body has such a strong reaction, i

know what is true. i have managed to call the bluff on many a product

manufacturer at gift shows, only to be proven right every time, much to the

chagrin of the vendor.

i imagine there are more than a few people in this group who also qualify as

the canary in the mine when it comes to awareness of the dangers in

synthetics, that others do not. in addition to serving a great purpose by

making beautiful safe perfumes, we are pointing the populace in the

direction of what they have a future of in a world of chemicals --

sensitivity based illnesses.

hope this sheds some light on another perspective.

maggi