Guest guest Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 I've been wondering.. are there any good descriptions out there of what real musk smells like? I mean, certain substances have been described as " musky " (labdanum), and others have been said to contain similar chemicals (ambrette seed). I've seen brief bits of discussion on here about making a natural musk doppelganger, and there are a number of synth musks. But for all of that, I have no idea what the real thing actually smells like, and I bet a lot of other people here don't either. Any thoughts? -Xplo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 > > I've been wondering.. are there any good descriptions out there of what > real musk smells like? > > I mean, certain substances have been described as " musky " (labdanum), > and others have been said to contain similar chemicals (ambrette seed). > I've seen brief bits of discussion on here about making a natural musk > doppelganger, and there are a number of synth musks. But for all of > that, I have no idea what the real thing actually smells like, and I bet > a lot of other people here don't either. > > Any thoughts? > > -Xplo > Maybe this link can help you... http://www.epistola.com/sfowler/scholar/scholar-musk.html Kymeth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 > >> -Xplo >> > > Maybe this link can help you... > > http://www.epistola.com/sfowler/scholar/scholar-musk.html > > Kymeth > What a fabulous article. Thank you so much, Dorothy Dorothy McCall, Cert. Aroma. Kingsbury Fragrances The Royal York 3955 Bigelow Blvd. Ste. 907 Pittsburgh, PA. 15213 (412) 687-2720 www.kingsburyfragrances.com " Vibrating aromatic threads speak of the Divine through tapestries of scent " Dorothy McCall Cert. Aroma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 > > I've been wondering.. are there any good descriptions out there of what > real musk smells like? > > I mean, certain substances have been described as " musky " (labdanum), > and others have been said to contain similar chemicals (ambrette seed). > I've seen brief bits of discussion on here about making a natural musk > doppelganger, and there are a number of synth musks. But for all of > that, I have no idea what the real thing actually smells like, and I bet > a lot of other people here don't either. > > Any thoughts? > > -Xplo > Hello Xplo, MUSK! MUSK! MUSK! - That magical, controversial, exulting, always rare and now illegal, most important ingredient for the natural perfumer. It must be the most important: Just look at the sheer number of articles written about it. I, too, have never smelled the genuine article and would LOVE to get a whiff, actually many whiffs of the precious substance. How do any of us natural perfumers go about creating a natural, vegetal, imitation doppelganger if we have never smelled the real thing? Sure, we can (and I plan to) experiment with blends of Ambrette seed abs., Costus root eo, root eo, Oakmoss abs., etc. We may come up with a blend that smells musky and makes us happy. But how will we ever know if it really comes close to the scent of true musk if we have no genuine article to imitate? And I bet no matter how close we approximate its scent with vegetal substitutes, we will never be able to duplicate its magical power of exultation. This all may be the natural perfumer's ultimate frustration. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 > > I have a small sample of genuine musk deer in my shop in Santa Cruz, > Ca. called " The Perfumer's Apprentice " , and i know a few members of > this group have been in and sniffed it. I myself am really weak at > describing odors, but maybe the others can chime in. to me, i can > really smell the " animal " component and i love it (deep and warm and > comforting, like burying your face in a horse's mane), but, like > castoreum, it's really more about the effect it has on the body. it > is, after all, a true pheromone. > it is illegal to use musk deer in a perfume in this country, but a > very small amount is legally imported annually for use in Chinese > medicine. i am planning a trip to San Francisco soon to try and find a > whole pod. I would, of course, never use it in a perfume to sell, but > as people who have been to my shop know, i'm an obsessive collector > trying to get my hands on everything so that people can learn about > all the wonderful elements used in perfumery throughout history! > (hence the name, Perfumer's Apprentice) > Hello , Did you ever consider blending up an imitation musk using natural, vegetal essences? You are in possession of a rare treasure and have a unique opportunity for comparison blending. Just think of the tremendous contribution you could make to this group if you came up with a really good imitation and shared the formula with us! Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 > Hello , > > Did you ever consider blending up an imitation musk using natural, > vegetal essences? You are in possession of a rare treasure and have > a unique opportunity for comparison blending. Just think of the > tremendous contribution you could make to this group if you came up > with a really good imitation and shared the formula with us! > > Mark > that is a worthy goal! i would like to experiment with goat musk tincture. if any members out there would be willing to send me some musky hairs, that'd be great. i think anya had success with a few hairs clipped from the horns area, and i've also heard that just swiping a cotton ball around the area didn't work too well. -linda The Perfumer's Apprentice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 ankhefenpaaten wrote: >> > And I bet no matter how close we > approximate its scent with vegetal substitutes, we will never be > able to duplicate its magical power of exultation. This all may be > the natural perfumer's ultimate frustration. Some reading on the subject indicates that ambrette seeds and angelica root contain certain macrocyclic musk lactones which are used (in isolated or synthetic form) by the fragrance industry.. so it may not be totally hopeless (although I have no idea as yet how concentrated the lactones are in the natural products.. more research needed here). OTOH, macrocyclic musk ketones are only available from animals, or lab synthesis, and are said to be the most penetrating and animalic musk odorants. There's no real reason why we can't use the animal products.. except that, as noted, they're illegal and harvesting endangers the species. It is ironic that a slavish devotion to natural ingredients either prevents us from using REAL musk, or else causes more harm to the environment than using some synthetic musks would do. This is, perhaps, one of those cases where certain natural perfumers would break from tradition and use synths; I believe we have at least one here who does so (although I don't know if s/he uses synth musk or not). -Xplo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 At 11:17 PM 2/2/2006, you wrote: There's no real reason why we can't use the animal products.. except >that, as noted, they're illegal and harvesting endangers the species. It >is ironic that a slavish devotion to natural ingredients either prevents >us from using REAL musk, or else causes more harm to the environment >than using some synthetic musks would do. Synthetic musks smell awful, period. Tacky. Jovan Musk 70's disco <shudder> and all the synth musk variations. There's a chemical harshness and unrelenting persistance in them that is like comparing scratchy polyester to fine silk. Plus, they may do as much harm to the environment (recent marine research) as killing the musk deer. It's all about the aesthetics of the scent where natural perfumers are concerned. If we can't get real musk, for whatever reason, we use alternatives. Pretty simple, yes? I don't see any irony at all, since we don't use it due to legal issues, and for some, moral issues. I look more to what unites us than what divides us, and using vegetal musk substitutes for all those reasons is why we're natural perfumers. Anya http://.com The premier site on the Web to discover the beauty of Natural Perfume / Join to study natural perfumery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 There's no real reason why we can't use the animal products.. except that, as noted, they're illegal and harvesting endangers the species. It is ironic that a slavish devotion to natural ingredients either prevents us from using REAL musk, or else causes more harm to the environment than using some synthetic musks would do. This is, perhaps, one of those cases where certain natural perfumers would break from tradition and use synths; I believe we have at least one here who does so (although I don't know if s/he uses synth musk or not). -Xplo Hi, I think this is one of many issues that create conflicts for natural perfumers. Synthetic musks have been used for decades...long before real musk was unavailable. The synthetics were developed primarily to save money (and, maybe, because scientists like to unlock mysteries, regardless of whether or not there is money to be made by doing so). The fact that we natural perfumers are unable to recreate musk, though, need not lead to the conclusion that we should use synthetic musks. In general, true musk was not used for its aroma. Rather, it was used for its ability to fix a perfume, for its ability to " exalt " or lift a perfume, and for its ability to add a slight animalic note. All of these purposes can be met without true musk and without synthetic musk. Civit absolute is a superb fixative and adds an animalic note to a perfume. It doesn't lift quite as well as musk. Ambergris tincture lifts and fixes. Both of these products are available, albeit at a cost. Of course, some perfumers object to using civit. It doesn't endanger the species, but it sure annoys the hell out of it. Ambergirs is less of a problem, as long as it doesn't cause the slaughter of whales. Ambrette seed oil and absolute, blended with other naturals fixes and adds that elusive animalic note...leaving lift to be achieved with citrus oils and other top and middle notes that contain aliphatic aldehydes. In short, we don't need musk or its synthetic substitutes to do musky things to our perfumes. That said, we might be more environmentally conscious if we used linalool instead of rosewood oil, sandela, sandalore and lots of other sandalwood synthetics instead of sandalwood oil, and galaxolide, exaltolide, muscone, muscenone and all the other synthetic musks instead of civit and ambergris. It all gets to the heart of the reason each person chooses natural perfumery. I, for one, plan to break into the offices of a Chinese medicine practitioner (I am lucky to have an apartment right down the street from Chinatown in NYC), and steal a bunch of musk pods. Steve Earl Glen Custom Perfumery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 >Xplo Eristotle <xplo@...> wrote: > I've been wondering.. are there any good descriptions out there of >what real musk smells like? > Here's how I describe real musk: animalic; odorous; intense, nearly to the point of overpowering; at once slightly repulsive and strangely attractive; sexual or erogenous; virile; dark; smooth; warm; slightly sweet; like the concentrated essence of a physical being. I like the descriptions in the link Kymeth posted, and things other folks said too. I think there are different types of musk odors. I grew up around dairy goats and knew well the musky odor of the bucks; we learned not to brush up against them, or the smell would stay on our clothes--it was that powerful--though I guess the smell is most intense during breeding season. I wonder if Gayla has any comments on this, and musk. I think many people have a fascination (attraction?) for musk, as evidenced by all the posts on this thread! I've even got on some Kiehl's Original Musk Oil right now, which I really like, even though it's synthetic. I just got some ambrette seed absolute that I'm starting to experiment with, but my first blend with it hasn't matured yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 > > I've been wondering.. are there any good descriptions out there of > >what real musk smells like? > > > Here's how I describe real musk: animalic; odorous; intense, nearly > to the point of overpowering; at once slightly repulsive and > strangely attractive; sexual or erogenous; virile; dark; smooth; > warm; slightly sweet; like the concentrated essence of a physical > being. > > I like the descriptions in the link Kymeth posted, and things other > folks said too. I think there are different types of musk odors. I > grew up around dairy goats and knew well the musky odor of the > bucks; we learned not to brush up against them, or the smell would > stay on our clothes--it was that powerful--though I guess the smell > is most intense during breeding season. I wonder if Gayla has any > comments on this, and musk. > > I think many people have a fascination (attraction?) for musk, as > evidenced by all the posts on this thread! I've even got on some > Kiehl's Original Musk Oil right now, which I really like, even > though it's synthetic. I just got some ambrette seed absolute that > I'm starting to experiment with, but my first blend with it hasn't > matured yet. > Hi Steve, Thank you for the postive feedback on the link. I thought that maybe you might like this link too, it is about Musk Hina...an Indian perfume that can be made synthetically - but this link will take you to an article on how they make it naturally. It doesn't divulge all the ingredients they use, but with some creativity and ingenuity it gives insights into many other botanicals we can use. http://members.aol.com/parijata/hina.html Blessings, Kymeth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 Re: So.. real musk? .. I think many people have a fascination (attraction?) for musk, as evidenced by all the posts on this thread! I've even got on some Kiehl's Original Musk Oil right now, which I really like, even though it's synthetic. I just got some ambrette seed absolute that I'm starting to experiment with, but my first blend with it hasn't matured yet. Hi, Steevo, For years I adored Kiehl's musk oil (and at the time had no idea that it was totally synthetic). Lately I have become more accustomed to the gentleness of natual substances. I recently received some Kiehl's musk oil eau de toilette as a gift and was shocked at how overpowering it was for me. The tenacity of synthetic perfumes can actually repel me these days (as in nausea from it's inescapability). I would love to make a dupe using natural ingredients. I think it would be less assaultive to my senses and would like the option of reapplying if/when the fragrance dissipated. Like others on this group I am frustrated not to have the real thing to compare it to. Neverthless, I would hate to hurt a deer as well and wouldn't feel goood about it. Such dilemmas! Jane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 At 03:04 AM 2/4/2006, you wrote: Hi Steevo: >I like the descriptions in the link Kymeth posted, and things other >folks said too. I think there are different types of musk odors. I >grew up around dairy goats and knew well the musky odor of the >bucks; we learned not to brush up against them, or the smell would >stay on our clothes--it was that powerful--though I guess the smell >is most intense during breeding season. I wonder if Gayla has any >comments on this, and musk. I got some goat hair from the area around the scent glands of a rutting billygoat last year and tinctured it. It gave up its scent immediately to the alcohol, and unlike ambergris, doesn't need aging. It is a smooth, penetrating musky scent with a round, rich funky strength that " fills the atmosphere " . Ambergris and musk and civet (even) are much shyer in strength than goat hair. I have used it in blends, in a tiny amount, and it works wonders, like the other musk/fixative essences. It smooths and enriches a blend while hiding its wild and crazy true nature ;-) Anya http://.com The premier site on the Web to discover the beauty of Natural Perfume / Join to study natural perfumery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 > >Hi, Steevo, >For years I adored Kiehl's musk oil (and at the time had no idea that it >was totally synthetic). Lately I have become more accustomed to the >gentleness of natual substances. I recently received some Kiehl's musk >oil eau de toilette as a gift and was shocked at how overpowering it was >for me. The tenacity of synthetic perfumes can actually repel me these >days (as in nausea from it's inescapability). I would love to make a dupe >using natural ingredients. I think it would be less assaultive to my >senses and would like the option of reapplying if/when the fragrance >dissipated. Like others on this group I am frustrated not to have the >real thing to compare it to. Neverthless, I would hate to hurt a deer as >well and wouldn't feel goood about it. Such dilemmas! Hi Jane: Overpowering. That's probably the best one-word summation of what I find wrong with today's mainstream scents, even the niche interesting ones. That, and the linear drydown. Sometimes even one drop on my wrist is bothersome, since the diffusion of the perfume, boosted by synthetics, creates a cloud of very strong scent. A good analogy would be my recollection of how I switched from regular milk to skim. At first I found the skim grassy and weak. Then it seemed refreshing. After years of just drinking skim, one day I was somewhere and they only had full-fat regular milk. I almost gagged -- it was like cream to me. Less is better ;-) I'd rather reapply and have delightful scent just within three feet of my body -- skim the fat (synths), save the noses near you (boy, is that a mixed metaphor, lol.) Anya http://.com The premier site on the Web to discover the beauty of Natural Perfume / Join to study natural perfumery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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