RE: Flu Mist Vaccine campaign

[Guest guest]

A. Mulick, Ph.D.

Professor, Pediatrics & Psychology

The Ohio State University

Columbus Children's Hospital

700 Children's Drive. CHPB-4

Columbus, OH 43205-2696

[No institutional endorsement of message content implied]

Re: Flu Mist Vaccine campaign

I will quote DIRECTLY from the FLU Mist WEB SITE

http://flumist.com/

" Due to the possible transmission of vaccine virus, FluMist

recipients should avoid being in close (for example, within the same

household) contact with immunocompromised individuals for 3 weeks

following vaccination. "

In my honest opinion the very young, the very old, the chronically

sick, and anyone pregnant are all immunocompromised. Anyone who uses

FluMist should wear a sign warning those around him or her that they

could infect anyone with the flu for 21 days. This from someone with

a chronic sickness.

> >

> >

> > I have never said anything about getting my kids the flu shot, but

> I was

> > curious to know why the PED never made the suggestion when we were

> there

> > for annuals late November.

> >

> > <snip>

> > Bonnie

> > <snip>

> >

[Guest guest]

A. Mulick, Ph.D.

Professor, Pediatrics & Psychology

The Ohio State University

Columbus Children's Hospital

700 Children's Drive. CHPB-4

Columbus, OH 43205-2696

[No institutional endorsement of message content implied]

Re: Flu Mist Vaccine campaign

I will quote DIRECTLY from the FLU Mist WEB SITE

http://flumist.com/

" Due to the possible transmission of vaccine virus, FluMist

recipients should avoid being in close (for example, within the same

household) contact with immunocompromised individuals for 3 weeks

following vaccination. "

In my honest opinion the very young, the very old, the chronically

sick, and anyone pregnant are all immunocompromised. Anyone who uses

FluMist should wear a sign warning those around him or her that they

could infect anyone with the flu for 21 days. This from someone with

a chronic sickness.

> >

> >

> > I have never said anything about getting my kids the flu shot, but

> I was

> > curious to know why the PED never made the suggestion when we were

> there

> > for annuals late November.

> >

> > <snip>

> > Bonnie

> > <snip>

> >

[Guest guest]

A. Mulick, Ph.D.

Professor, Pediatrics & Psychology

The Ohio State University

Columbus Children's Hospital

700 Children's Drive. CHPB-4

Columbus, OH 43205-2696

[No institutional endorsement of message content implied]

Re: Flu Mist Vaccine campaign

I will quote DIRECTLY from the FLU Mist WEB SITE

http://flumist.com/

" Due to the possible transmission of vaccine virus, FluMist

recipients should avoid being in close (for example, within the same

household) contact with immunocompromised individuals for 3 weeks

following vaccination. "

In my honest opinion the very young, the very old, the chronically

sick, and anyone pregnant are all immunocompromised. Anyone who uses

FluMist should wear a sign warning those around him or her that they

could infect anyone with the flu for 21 days. This from someone with

a chronic sickness.

> >

> >

> > I have never said anything about getting my kids the flu shot, but

> I was

> > curious to know why the PED never made the suggestion when we were

> there

> > for annuals late November.

> >

> > <snip>

> > Bonnie

> > <snip>

> >

[Guest guest]

Is there some reason why you are spamming us?

Re: Flu Mist Vaccine campaign

>

>

> I will quote DIRECTLY from the FLU Mist WEB SITE

>

> http://flumist.com/

>

> " Due to the possible transmission of vaccine virus, FluMist

> recipients should avoid being in close (for example, within the same

> household) contact with immunocompromised individuals for 3 weeks

> following vaccination. "

>

> In my honest opinion the very young, the very old, the chronically

> sick, and anyone pregnant are all immunocompromised. Anyone who uses

> FluMist should wear a sign warning those around him or her that they

> could infect anyone with the flu for 21 days. This from someone with

> a chronic sickness.

>

>

>

> > >

> > >

> > > I have never said anything about getting my kids the flu shot, but

> > I was

> > > curious to know why the PED never made the suggestion when we were

> > there

> > > for annuals late November.

> > >

> > > <snip>

> > > Bonnie

> > > <snip>

> > >

[Guest guest]

Dr. Mulick,

I am not being argumentative, I am only trying to present the facts

as the CDC and the manufacturer have presented them so that parents

of children with developmental disabilities can make intelligent and

informed decisions. I am not advocating NOT vaccinating if a child's

health is in danger, I am only trying to bring to light any potential

problems that may be caused for these children and the people that

support them. It is always up to a child's guardians to determine

what is best for their health and well being.

The current strain that is in every Flu shot and the Flumist does

not cover the more dangerous A/Fujian strain that is prevalent in the

US. The current Flu shot will cause neurological damage due to the

preservative Thimerosal, and also contains a known carcinogen and

formaldehyde. Flumist contains live viruses that only add additional

live viruses for exposure to the general population.

If my memory serves me well, doctors are supposed to " Do no

harm " . My personal opinion is that this concept has all but

disappeared at the CDC and FDA. That is only my opinion and reflects

on no one else.

The other " live virus " is also hotly contested. The MMR has also

proven to do damage to the intestines of autistic individuals. These

live antibodies may in fact be traveling through the CSV, thereby

causing neurological damage to the brain.

If the CDC and FDA wanted to " Do no harm " , then they would

separate the MMR vaccine into three different jabs. The Mumps and

Rubella weaken the immune system allowing easier access of the live

Measles virus into the intestinal walls according to Dr. Wakefield's

study. They would also require the removal of Thimerosal from EVERY

vaccination. Thimerosal is only a preservative that saves the

pharmaceutical companies money. It does absolutely nothing to

increase or aid the effectiveness of any vaccine. There is NO medical

need for it.

Chuck

VA Unlocking Autism representative

> > >

> > >

> > > I have never said anything about getting my kids the flu shot,

but

> > I was

> > > curious to know why the PED never made the suggestion when we

were

> > there

> > > for annuals late November.

> > >

> > > <snip>

> > > Bonnie

> > > <snip>

> > >

[Guest guest]

Much too much.

Penny

-----Original Message-----From: Michele [mailto:fivebowers@...]Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 6:06 PMautism Subject: Re: Flu Mist Vaccine campaign

my son was given the hep b vaccine because the state requires it now and there is almost no chance for him to get it. my other 2 children did not get it. he got it within 24 hours of being born, its too much.

michele bowersjoshua 7 dx autismtaylor 4 speech delayskylar 9 months(so far so good)stopped vaxing in 2000george dh

[Guest guest]

my son was given the hep b vaccine because the state requires it now and there is almost no chance for him to get it. my other 2 children did not get it. he got it within 24 hours of being born, its too much.

michele bowersjoshua 7 dx autismtaylor 4 speech delayskylar 9 months(so far so good)stopped vaxing in 2000george dh

RE: Flu Mist Vaccine campaign

As a blood born disease, there are other ways of getting Hepatitis B. The virus can be spread when the blood or certain other bodily secretions from a person infected with hepatitis B comes in contact with another person's blood (for example, during blood transfusions, sharing IV needles among drug users, or when needle stick injuries occur). Because the virus can also be passed in semen, men may pass the virus to their sexual partner. Women may pass the virus to their sexual partner through their menstrual blood, vaginal secretions, or through open sores in their genital area. Contact with saliva from a person with hepatitis B can also transmit the virus, but it is not likely. When a mother has hepatitis B, the newborn infant may acquire it during birth. That is why it was approved for infants. In the big city, mothers take drugs and have sex and sometimes get pregnant, all on the same night they get exposed to the virus.

A. Mulick, Ph.D.

Professor, Pediatrics & Psychology

The Ohio State University

Columbus Children's Hospital

700 Children's Drive. CHPB-4

Columbus, OH 43205-2696

[No institutional endorsement of message content implied]

-----Original Message-----From: Penny [mailto:nospam@...] Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 9:59 PMautism Subject: RE: Flu Mist Vaccine campaign

OK, not to start a debate or anything...and this has nothing to do with the FluMist Vaccine... but...

Was it or was it not the CDC that approved the Hepatitis B vaccine for infants? A group that has virtually NO chance of contracting the disease in the first place, and by the time these children become sexually active, have no protection from the vaccine anyhow.....

Penny

-----Original Message-----From: james A. Mulick [mailto:mulick.1@...]Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 2:10 PMautism Subject: RE: Flu Mist Vaccine campaignDid you miss the other aspects of 's articles? Tell me you reallythink that the CDC would approve a vaccine that would increase thenumber of infections. Please tell me. Because I really want to know. A. Mulick, Ph.D.Professor, Pediatrics & PsychologyThe Ohio State UniversityColumbus Children's Hospital700 Children's Drive. CHPB-4Columbus, OH 43205-2696[No institutional endorsement of message content implied]

[Guest guest]

At 08:05 PM 12/17/2003, you wrote:

>Messagemy son was given the hep b vaccine because the state requires it now

What state are you in? Are exemptions of any kind allowed or would a parent

that didn't want their newborn baby to receive this vaccine be forced to

leave the state in order to not be guilty of breaking the law? Could you

get a medical exemption by being tested negative by your ob/gyn prior to

giving birth, proving through lab testing that you weren't a drug user etc?

Marty Landman

--

http://newdiets.com ::Gluten & Casein Free Recipes

Take a Quiz - Make a Quiz

http://face2interface.com/cgi-bin/SimplQuiz/index.cgi/

[Guest guest]

my son was my first child so i did get my son that shot because they said too i dont do that anymore and i now do get an exemption. i live in pa and they have medical and religious exemptions here.

michele bowersjoshua 7 dx autismtaylor 4 speech delayskylar 9 months(so far so good)stopped vaxing in 2000george dh

Re: Flu Mist Vaccine campaign

At 08:05 PM 12/17/2003, you wrote:>Messagemy son was given the hep b vaccine because the state requires it nowWhat state are you in? Are exemptions of any kind allowed or would a parent that didn't want their newborn baby to receive this vaccine be forced to leave the state in order to not be guilty of breaking the law? Could you get a medical exemption by being tested negative by your ob/gyn prior to giving birth, proving through lab testing that you weren't a drug user etc?Marty Landman--http://newdiets.com ::Gluten & Casein Free RecipesTake a Quiz - Make a Quiz http://face2interface.com/cgi-bin/SimplQuiz/index.cgi/

[Guest guest]

And it happens so often that all babies must have this vaccination??? In some states it is law but not ours. Here we can still say no, if we want to. Trouble of it is, if you do not have a child with neurological problems you are probably not aware of the dangers some vaccines pose. Being against getting several vaccinations at once and too young does not mean that most are against vaccinations period. It just means that we are asking for safer ones and only ones that are truly necessary.

Betty

----- Original Message -----

From: james A. Mulick

Do babies get this vaccine routinely? And what if mom shoots up with a pal a month after she gives birth, while she continues to breast feed. This happens.

A. Mulick, Ph.D.

Professor, Pediatrics & Psychology

The Ohio State University

Columbus Children's Hospital

700 Children's Drive. CHPB-4

Columbus, OH 43205-2696

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/18/2003 9:35:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, wmks1983@... writes:

Let me end this by saying that I don't think mercury "causes" autism, but it sure as heck causes significant harm and lasting complications in people with autism.

I don't think mercury causes autism, but I believe many cases of autism are actually mercury poisoning. IF you look at the symptoms of mercury poisoning vs signs of autism, they match just about one for one.

[Guest guest]

When my daughter was born (12 years ago next month), she nursed like a champ in the delivery room. Then they took her to the nursery and I went to my room. I've since realized that part of her "clean up" at the nursery included the hep b vaccine. From that moment on, it took us almost 12 weeks to get her to nurse properly. I always thought that vaccines had no impact on her because she had autistic symptoms from Day One. Now I know why, and it still breaks my heart if I let myself think about it (which I do very, very rarely).

From what I understand, there are 3 ways to get Hep B: sharing needles during drug use, unprotected sex, and blood transfusions. Her Dad and I both tested negative to Hep B, and don't live an "at risk" life style (who has the time....). In the few short hours of her life, she didn't shoot up, she didn't have sex, and she didn't have a blood transfusion. She was still vaccinated.

And just the fact that Thimerosal is in vaccines blows my mind. They took it out of contact lens solution and ear drops for adults because of it's harmful effects, yet they shoot it into babies. And, they shoot it into babies who don't yet produce bile -- the very ingredient required to process toxic metals so that they can be voided.

Let me end this by saying that I don't think mercury "causes" autism, but it sure as heck causes significant harm and lasting complications in people with autism.

Okay, I'm off my soap box now.

Missy in Md.

-----Original Message-----From: Michele [mailto:fivebowers@...] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 8:06 PMautism Subject: Re: Flu Mist Vaccine campaign

my son was given the hep b vaccine because the state requires it now and there is almost no chance for him to get it. my other 2 children did not get it. he got it within 24 hours of being born, its too much.

michele bowersjoshua 7 dx autismtaylor 4 speech delayskylar 9 months(so far so good)stopped vaxing in 2000george dh

RE: Flu Mist Vaccine campaign

As a blood born disease, there are other ways of getting Hepatitis B. The virus can be spread when the blood or certain other bodily secretions from a person infected with hepatitis B comes in contact with another person's blood (for example, during blood transfusions, sharing IV needles among drug users, or when needle stick injuries occur). Because the virus can also be passed in semen, men may pass the virus to their sexual partner. Women may pass the virus to their sexual partner through their menstrual blood, vaginal secretions, or through open sores in their genital area. Contact with saliva from a person with hepatitis B can also transmit the virus, but it is not likely. When a mother has hepatitis B, the newborn infant may acquire it during birth. That is why it was approved for infants. In the big city, mothers take drugs and have sex and sometimes get pregnant, all on the same night they get exposed to the virus.

A. Mulick, Ph.D.

Professor, Pediatrics & Psychology

The Ohio State University

Columbus Children's Hospital

700 Children's Drive. CHPB-4

Columbus, OH 43205-2696

[No institutional endorsement of message content implied]

-----Original Message-----From: Penny [mailto:nospam@...] Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 9:59 PMautism Subject: RE: Flu Mist Vaccine campaign

OK, not to start a debate or anything...and this has nothing to do with the FluMist Vaccine... but...

Was it or was it not the CDC that approved the Hepatitis B vaccine for infants? A group that has virtually NO chance of contracting the disease in the first place, and by the time these children become sexually active, have no protection from the vaccine anyhow.....

Penny

-----Original Message-----From: james A. Mulick [mailto:mulick.1@...]Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 2:10 PMautism Subject: RE: Flu Mist Vaccine campaignDid you miss the other aspects of 's articles? Tell me you reallythink that the CDC would approve a vaccine that would increase thenumber of infections. Please tell me. Because I really want to know. A. Mulick, Ph.D.Professor, Pediatrics & PsychologyThe Ohio State UniversityColumbus Children's Hospital700 Children's Drive. CHPB-4Columbus, OH 43205-2696[No institutional endorsement of message content implied]

[Guest guest]

One note of information. There is no evidence that Thimerosal in quantities used as preservative in vaccines or other products is harmful. The fact that it has been taken out of some medical products is a matter of marketing rather than safety. If people are afraid of a product they will not buy it. Poisons are abundant in our lives, every drug that people get in physicians' prescriptions that I can think of (and most OTC drugs too) are also poisons in the right quantity; and we all take risks with every breath, many that are completely unknown. You have to balance the known risks against the known benefits of every action, and you obviously cannot factor out the unknown risks and benefits. It is always appropriate to reduce known risks by adopting less risky alternatives as they become available. The problem is that in a still largely privatized medical economy, decisions as well as available options can reflect popular preference based on poorly understood, often incorrect, ideas about risks and benefits. What do you or I know about alternatives to Thimerosal as a preservative? Not much unless we take extraordinary steps to find out, and then we may be limited by our limitations in the background needed to understand the information we research.

A. Mulick, Ph.D.

Professor, Pediatrics & Psychology

The Ohio State University

Columbus Children's Hospital

700 Children's Drive. CHPB-4

Columbus, OH 43205-2696

[No institutional endorsement of message content implied]

-----Original Message-----From: M. [mailto:wmks1983@...] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:33 AMautism Subject: RE: Flu Mist Vaccine campaign

[james A. Mulick] <snip>

And just the fact that Thimerosal is in vaccines blows my mind. They took it out of contact lens solution and ear drops for adults because of it's harmful effects, yet they shoot it into babies. And, they shoot it into babies who don't yet produce bile -- the very ingredient required to process toxic metals so that they can be voided.

Let me end this by saying that I don't think mercury "causes" autism, but it sure as heck causes significant harm and lasting complications in people with autism.

<snip>

[Guest guest]

Yep, this is the real problem.

A. Mulick, Ph.D.

Professor, Pediatrics & Psychology

The Ohio State University

Columbus Children's Hospital

700 Children's Drive. CHPB-4

Columbus, OH 43205-2696

[No institutional endorsement of message content implied]

-----Original Message-----From: Jami A Trawick [mailto:jatrawick@...] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 7:39 PMautism Subject: Re: Re: Flu Mist Vaccine campaign

I would rather not step on anyone's political viewpoints here, but please read this article that was published yesterday at http://www.misleader.org/daily_mislead/Read.asp?fn=df12172003.html

It does not appear that decreasing toxic exposure to mercury is a high priority on the list of our present administration. ~Jami

December 15, 2003 | Daily Mislead Archive White House Debates Mercury Policy Behind Closed DoorsToday is the EPA's deadline to announce its plan for regulating mercury from coal-burning power plants. A leaked draft indicates it will downgrade mercury as a toxin while weakening efforts to clean up mercury emissions.1 [james A. Mulick] <snip>

[Guest guest]

I was happy when it was made available to me, of course. Having worked around people with disabilities all my life, and their body fluids, some of whom are carriers, I was first in line to get mine. On infant vaccination with HepB vaccine, I spoke with a former CDC physician today to ask the rationale for the recommendation that all infants get the vaccination. She said it was due to the lack of an algorithm on which to base a more selective policy.

A. Mulick, Ph.D.

Professor, Pediatrics & Psychology

The Ohio State University

Columbus Children's Hospital

700 Children's Drive. CHPB-4

Columbus, OH 43205-2696

[No institutional endorsement of message content implied]

-----Original Message-----From: Jami A Trawick [mailto:jatrawick@...] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:36 PMautism Subject: Re: Flu Mist Vaccine campaign

The world is full of what-ifs, unfortunately. I am not sure whether or not babies get this vaccination regulary. My son did, as well as many other children I know.

RE: Flu Mist Vaccine campaign

As a blood born disease, there are other ways of getting Hepatitis B. The virus can be spread when the blood or certain other bodily secretions from a person infected with hepatitis B comes in contact with another person's blood (for example, during blood transfusions, sharing IV needles among drug users, or when needle stick injuries occur). Because the virus can also be passed in semen, men may pass the virus to their sexual partner. Women may pass the virus to their sexual partner through their menstrual blood, vaginal secretions, or through open sores in their genital area. Contact with saliva from a person with hepatitis B can also transmit the virus, but it is not likely. When a mother has hepatitis B, the newborn infant may acquire it during birth. That is why it was approved for infants. In the big city, mothers take drugs and have sex and sometimes get pregnant, all on the same night they get exposed to the virus.

A. Mulick, Ph.D.

Professor, Pediatrics & Psychology

The Ohio State University

Columbus Children's Hospital

700 Children's Drive. CHPB-4

Columbus, OH 43205-2696

[No institutional endorsement of message content implied]

-----Original Message-----From: Penny [mailto:nospam@...] Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 9:59 PMautism Subject: RE: Flu Mist Vaccine campaign

OK, not to start a debate or anything...and this has nothing to do with the FluMist Vaccine... but...

Was it or was it not the CDC that approved the Hepatitis B vaccine for infants? A group that has virtually NO chance of contracting the disease in the first place, and by the time these children become sexually active, have no protection from the vaccine anyhow.....

Penny

-----Original Message-----From: james A. Mulick [mailto:mulick.1@...]Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 2:10 PMautism Subject: RE: Flu Mist Vaccine campaignDid you miss the other aspects of 's articles? Tell me you reallythink that the CDC would approve a vaccine that would increase thenumber of infections. Please tell me. Because I really want to know. A. Mulick, Ph.D.Professor, Pediatrics & PsychologyThe Ohio State UniversityColumbus Children's Hospital700 Children's Drive. CHPB-4Columbus, OH 43205-2696[No institutional endorsement of message content implied]

[Guest guest]

The last study done on Thimerosal (Merthiolate) was done in 1930 by

Eli Lilly, and all 22 test subjects died. The FDA has never required

clinical studies of its safety since that time.

> One note of information. There is no evidence that Thimerosal in

> quantities used as preservative in vaccines or other products is

> harmful. The fact that it has been taken out of some medical

products is

> a matter of marketing rather than safety. If people are afraid of a

> product they will not buy it. Poisons are abundant in our lives,

every

> drug that people get in physicians' prescriptions that I can think

of

> (and most OTC drugs too) are also poisons in the right quantity;

and we

> all take risks with every breath, many that are completely unknown.

You

> have to balance the known risks against the known benefits of every

> action, and you obviously cannot factor out the unknown risks and

> benefits. It is always appropriate to reduce known risks by adopting

> less risky alternatives as they become available. The problem is

that in

> a still largely privatized medical economy, decisions as well as

> available options can reflect popular preference based on poorly

> understood, often incorrect, ideas about risks and benefits. What

do you

> or I know about alternatives to Thimerosal as a preservative? Not

much

> unless we take extraordinary steps to find out, and then we may be

> limited by our limitations in the background needed to understand

the

> information we research.

>

>

> A. Mulick, Ph.D.

> Professor, Pediatrics & Psychology

> The Ohio State University

> Columbus Children's Hospital

> 700 Children's Drive. CHPB-4

> Columbus, OH 43205-2696

> [No institutional endorsement of message content implied]

>

> RE: Flu Mist Vaccine campaign

>

>

> [james A. Mulick] <snip>

> And just the fact that Thimerosal is in vaccines blows my mind.

They

> took it out of contact lens solution and ear drops for adults

because of

> it's harmful effects, yet they shoot it into babies. And, they

shoot it

> into babies who don't yet produce bile -- the very ingredient

required

> to process toxic metals so that they can be voided.

>

> Let me end this by saying that I don't think mercury " causes "

autism,

> but it sure as heck causes significant harm and lasting

complications in

> people with autism.

> <snip>

[Guest guest]

Yup. The later you get it in the season, the less is the time you can be protected. It also depends on where you live, because there is a global west to east movement (usually) of the spread of the new strains.

A. Mulick, Ph.D.

Professor, Pediatrics & Psychology

The Ohio State University

Columbus Children's Hospital

700 Children's Drive. CHPB-4

Columbus, OH 43205-2696

[No institutional endorsement of message content implied]

-----Original Message-----From: ForresterFamily [mailto:forrester@...] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 3:15 PMautism Subject: Re: Re: Flu Mist Vaccine campaign

The problem is that you are not immune for 2-4 weeks AFTER getting this. If you get the flumisty stuff now in the middle of the flu season you really aren't benefiting yourself that much. This info is from my aunt who is an RN and is head of the infection control board at my local hospital.

Elaine

> > >

[Guest guest]

Show me the study that ethylmercury does not cause neurological

damage doctor and I will be quite. No one to date has been able to

swear to congress that Thimerosal hasn't caused the increase in

autism. All it is is a preservative. It would cost $1 more per

vaccine to have it removed. There is no medical need for it. It does

not increase the effectiveness of any vaccine that it is in.

> One note of information. There is no evidence that Thimerosal in

> quantities used as preservative in vaccines or other products is

> harmful. The fact that it has been taken out of some medical

products is

> a matter of marketing rather than safety. If people are afraid of a

> product they will not buy it. Poisons are abundant in our lives,

every

> drug that people get in physicians' prescriptions that I can think

of

> (and most OTC drugs too) are also poisons in the right quantity;

and we

> all take risks with every breath, many that are completely unknown.

You

> have to balance the known risks against the known benefits of every

> action, and you obviously cannot factor out the unknown risks and

> benefits. It is always appropriate to reduce known risks by adopting

> less risky alternatives as they become available. The problem is

that in

> a still largely privatized medical economy, decisions as well as

> available options can reflect popular preference based on poorly

> understood, often incorrect, ideas about risks and benefits. What

do you

> or I know about alternatives to Thimerosal as a preservative? Not

much

> unless we take extraordinary steps to find out, and then we may be

> limited by our limitations in the background needed to understand

the

> information we research.

>

>

> A. Mulick, Ph.D.

> Professor, Pediatrics & Psychology

> The Ohio State University

> Columbus Children's Hospital

> 700 Children's Drive. CHPB-4

> Columbus, OH 43205-2696

> [No institutional endorsement of message content implied]

>

> RE: Flu Mist Vaccine campaign

>

>

> [james A. Mulick] <snip>

> And just the fact that Thimerosal is in vaccines blows my mind.

They

> took it out of contact lens solution and ear drops for adults

because of

> it's harmful effects, yet they shoot it into babies. And, they

shoot it

> into babies who don't yet produce bile -- the very ingredient

required

> to process toxic metals so that they can be voided.

>

> Let me end this by saying that I don't think mercury " causes "

autism,

> but it sure as heck causes significant harm and lasting

complications in

> people with autism.

> <snip>

[Guest guest]

But since we are in the middle of the season now with it being already spread from west to east, then what is the point of pushing this now? I am in the east and it is already here.

Elaine

Yup. The later you get it in the season, the less is the time you can be protected. It also depends on where you live, because there is a global west to east movement (usually) of the spread of the new strains.

..

[Guest guest]

I seem to have struck a cord. That is the most informative aspect of your message. I a have responded in blue (rtf).

Re: Flu Mist Vaccine campaign

<snip> nothing more then a

Hypocrite... <snip>...a subject that you have

illustrated to know little about. You worry about ignorance and

spread mis-information. You describe other's point of view as

a " crank " and " pretty goofy " ,

<snip>

The problem is that you are incorrect in your interpretations.

<snip>...making you an Ideologue.

For the record, an ideologue is a person who sets out to pursue a project to change the social and political opportunities that other people will have. I have politics, of course, and I will not hesitate to indicate that they are strongly liberal, in that I think that the best chance we have in our country is for the free flow of argument no to be impeded. I am not trying to limit the availability of your speech or your access to vaccines, I am presenting arguments to your ideas and speculating on their possible sources and biases, which are always relevant in any debate. We all have sources and biases. I will defend your right to stay vaccine free and suffer the consequences, it is a different matter when an ideology spreads and limits access to effective medical care for the people I care about.

" BTW, the kind of flu that could be transmitted by the attenuated live virus is an attenuated flu, and any transmission of this flu is

actually

beneficial because it will provide immunity just like the Flu Mist preparation itself. "

Yes, right. What you say next has nothing to do with my statement.

The attenuated flu virus in both the shot and the FLUMist is not the

A/Fujian strain that is currently prevalent in the United States. It

is only 20 to 30% effective against this drift. You would do just as

well to not get FluMist or the shot, eat and exercise well and wash

your hands often. The Flumist does nothing more then artificially

adding additional virus strains and points of exposure to the general

population. This creates undue hardship for those that are trying to

avoid any exposure for whatever reason.

Here is why: The " drift " they are discussing, is actually genetic change, some of which is " drift " in the sense that the flu virus probably has an internal genetic mechanism assuring a high degree of replication error as it reproduces; an interesting survival strategy, and some of which is evolution. Any vaccine is always a best guess about what the next season will bring as the newly evolved virus spreads. As hosts develop antibodies to the last strains, evolution serves to favor the reproduction of viruses with different genes. It is the genetic signature in the form of peptide signals that viruses release by which the immune system recognizes as an old enemy a previously encountered virus or other germ as something to be devoured. The immune system retains a memory for the old enemies and can rapidly produce the needed countermeasures (unless the immune system is compromised from drugs or AIDS), vaccines provide the signatures of new enemies to start the production of antibodies before a devastating infection can occur. Nature evolves many many variants of virus all the time, but many of these are not dangerous because they are not virulent and produce minor illnesses, or because they do not reproduce in a host about which we need to be concerned. These variants are the virus strains. But like different strains of dogs, you can not always guess correctly exactly which strain of stray will wander into your neighborhood, and with viruses, vaccine makers must do this guesswork about the likely characteristics of viruses months in the future, after the West to East wave of evolutionary change occurs. You can't put them all, or even all the ones you know about, in every annual vaccine. You have to guess. Here is what you are misinterpreting. The data on FluMist this year indicates that it contains an attenuated virus that shares some of the genome of this years apparent killer A/Fugian, indicate by the partial reactivity of the immune system in experiments to A/Fugian after exposure to the genetic signature of one of the strains in FluMist this year. This partial reactivity, based on the genetic similarity of the two virus strains, appears to confer some immunity to children in placebo controlled studies.

Eating and exercising have little to do with getting the flu, except that if you do those things in a public place during flu season instead of locked in your sealed house, you will be more likely to get the flu because of contact with the general population, some of whom will be carrying and spreading the virus.

The best way to avoid any exposure is to isolate yourself during flu season. This has some inconvenience attached to it. The ironic thing, however, to the isolation solution, is that if you did it every season, then you'd be totally unprotected to the future strains that would be similar to ones you'd have grown you own antibodies to in fight in previous years' infections. You'd have decreased cross reactivity of your immune system to variants of old strains that others who did not isolate themselves would have grown. Eventually, if you adopt the isolation solution you will be more vulnerable if you ever re-enter society. It has been argued that all the great epidemics that we are worried about are the direct consequences of close living in groups, and that low density populations of humans would never have evolved them. They emerged after we began to live in cities. This is the old arms race between one species and another, when the benefit of one is partly at the expense of the other.

" FluMist, according to CDC, has no Thimerosol. "

I never claimed that it did. The toxic compound would kill any living

virus, which is also why it has never been in the MMR vaccine. That

would either be a mistake that you made or the spread of mis- information on your part.

So, then, neither of us said it did. But CDC sure as shootin' said it didn't. Which may be useful information for some people.

If Dan Burton is your source, you need better ones.

" If you are worried about mercury, I suggest you should look into the

industrial spills of mercury in Ashtabula County Ohio, which are much

more of a problem than thimerosal represents. "

I concede that there are a great many " Hot Spots " for mercury

contamination. This constant contamination has help fuel the FDA to

restrict the consumption of larger predatory fish. However you are

incorrect on one point. They are not " much more of a problem " they

are part of the unnatural, man made, increase in exposure to the most

toxic substance that isn't radioactive on the face of the Earth. I

will willing concede this point to you as soon as you provide both me [sorry, I can't resist. You already conceded the point in the first sentence. My point was that real sources of mercury toxicity should be considered more important than those without support.]

and Representative Dan Burton with a peer reviewed study showing that

mercury in any form doesn't cause neurological damage.

For the record, here is what I characterized as goofy: " Nobody, after a vaccine or not, should blow their nose at an immunocompromised person, so the suggestion that getting the Flu Mist is somehow insidious for them in particular is pretty goofy. " If you did not suggest that contact after FluMist is more dangerous to the immunicompromised than exposing them to your otherwise illness-related coughs and sneezes, I stand corrected, but I still think you did. The fact is that you should not visit the immunocompromised without precautions when you are sick, period. Obviously, it would be preferable o get the shot which used inactivated viruses because you don't then get a mild case of the illness. The trouble is that in many places, the shots are all used up.

I am disagreeing with your statements and your beliefs.

<snip>However I am

civil enough to present my ideas without discounting yours.

No thanks.

I highly recommend that you <snip>

<snip>

>

> A. Mulick, Ph.D.

> Professor, Pediatrics & Psychology

> The Ohio State University

> Columbus Children's Hospital

> 700 Children's Drive. CHPB-4

> Columbus, OH 43205-2696

> [No institutional endorsement of message content implied]

>

[Guest guest]

Penny, If it were feasible to test or predict who should get it,that would be done. Right now this is not practical to do effectively.

A. Mulick, Ph.D.

Professor, Pediatrics & Psychology

The Ohio State University

Columbus Children's Hospital

700 Children's Drive. CHPB-4

Columbus, OH 43205-2696

[No institutional endorsement of message content implied]

-----Original Message-----From: Penny [mailto:nospam@...] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 6:09 PMautism Subject: RE: Flu Mist Vaccine campaign

First of all, yes babies do get this vaccine routinely, usually before leaving the hospital. I would think being a professor of Pediatrics, you would know this.

And really, what percentage of Hep B cases are from the example you pose? I'm also under the belief that Hepatitis B can and does resolve itself eventually. It seems to me that such a low risk of infection does not warrant routine use of this vaccine...

Penny

-----Original Message-----From: james A. Mulick [mailto:mulick.1@...]Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:28 PMautism Subject: RE: Flu Mist Vaccine campaign

Do babies get this vaccine routinely? And what if mom shoots up with a pal a month after she gives birth, while she continues to breast feed. This happens.

A. Mulick, Ph.D.

Professor, Pediatrics & Psychology

The Ohio State University

Columbus Children's Hospital

700 Children's Drive. CHPB-4

Columbus, OH 43205-2696

[No institutional endorsement of message content implied]

[Guest guest]

Mr. Mulick,

You are just being rude. You are nothing more then a paid " Talking

Mouth " who doesn't do his homework. The 's retained you for

help, and you provided them with nothing. You didn't bother doing

your work in ex rel v. Olathe Dist. Sch. Unified Sch. Dist.

No 233. The judge decided your opinion isn't necessary, making you

person non grata. I fully agree with his decision. I also believe you

are a person non grata. You are wasting everyone's time here. This

group is for the discussion of behavioral issues in raising children

with ASD. If you need someplace to vent your own personal problems,

then this isn't the right place for you.

I enjoy a good intellectual debate that brings all points of

contention into a forum of open exchanges that do not have any

personal attacks. If you have a problem with what I say, then E-mail

me directly. THIS IS NOT THE PLACE FOR PERSONAL ATTACKS.

> I seem to have struck a cord. That is the most informative aspect of

> your message. I a have responded in blue (rtf).

>

>

>

>

> Re: Flu Mist Vaccine campaign

>

>

> <snip> nothing more then a

> Hypocrite... <snip>...a subject that you have

> illustrated to know little about. You worry about ignorance and

> spread mis-information. You describe other's point of view as

> a " crank " and " pretty goofy " ,

> <snip>

>

> The problem is that you are incorrect in your interpretations.

>

>

> <snip>...making you an Ideologue.

>

> For the record, an ideologue is a person who sets out to pursue a

> project to change the social and political opportunities that other

> people will have. I have politics, of course, and I will not

hesitate to

> indicate that they are strongly liberal, in that I think that the

best

> chance we have in our country is for the free flow of argument no

to be

> impeded. I am not trying to limit the availability of your speech or

> your access to vaccines, I am presenting arguments to your ideas and

> speculating on their possible sources and biases, which are always

> relevant in any debate. We all have sources and biases. I will

defend

> your right to stay vaccine free and suffer the consequences, it is a

> different matter when an ideology spreads and limits access to

effective

> medical care for the people I care about.

>

>

> " BTW, the kind of flu that could be transmitted by the attenuated

live

> virus is an attenuated flu, and any transmission of this flu is

> actually

> beneficial because it will provide immunity just like the Flu Mist

> preparation itself. "

>

> Yes, right. What you say next has nothing to do with my statement.

>

> The attenuated flu virus in both the shot and the FLUMist is not

the

> A/Fujian strain that is currently prevalent in the United States.

It

> is only 20 to 30% effective against this drift. You would do just

as

> well to not get FluMist or the shot, eat and exercise well and wash

> your hands often. The Flumist does nothing more then artificially

> adding additional virus strains and points of exposure to the

general

> population. This creates undue hardship for those that are trying

to

> avoid any exposure for whatever reason.

>

> Here is why: The " drift " they are discussing, is actually genetic

> change, some of which is " drift " in the sense that the flu virus

> probably has an internal genetic mechanism assuring a high degree of

> replication error as it reproduces; an interesting survival

strategy,

> and some of which is evolution. Any vaccine is always a best guess

about

> what the next season will bring as the newly evolved virus spreads.

As

> hosts develop antibodies to the last strains, evolution serves to

favor

> the reproduction of viruses with different genes. It is the genetic

> signature in the form of peptide signals that viruses release by

which

> the immune system recognizes as an old enemy a previously

encountered

> virus or other germ as something to be devoured. The immune system

> retains a memory for the old enemies and can rapidly produce the

needed

> countermeasures (unless the immune system is compromised from drugs

or

> AIDS), vaccines provide the signatures of new enemies to start the

> production of antibodies before a devastating infection can occur.

> Nature evolves many many variants of virus all the time, but many of

> these are not dangerous because they are not virulent and produce

minor

> illnesses, or because they do not reproduce in a host about which we

> need to be concerned. These variants are the virus strains. But like

> different strains of dogs, you can not always guess correctly

exactly

> which strain of stray will wander into your neighborhood, and with

> viruses, vaccine makers must do this guesswork about the likely

> characteristics of viruses months in the future, after the West to

East

> wave of evolutionary change occurs. You can't put them all, or even

all

> the ones you know about, in every annual vaccine. You have to guess.

> Here is what you are misinterpreting. The data on FluMist this year

> indicates that it contains an attenuated virus that shares some of

the

> genome of this years apparent killer A/Fugian, indicate by the

partial

> reactivity of the immune system in experiments to A/Fugian after

> exposure to the genetic signature of one of the strains in FluMist

this

> year. This partial reactivity, based on the genetic similarity of

the

> two virus strains, appears to confer some immunity to children in

> placebo controlled studies.

>

> Eating and exercising have little to do with getting the flu, except

> that if you do those things in a public place during flu season

instead

> of locked in your sealed house, you will be more likely to get the

flu

> because of contact with the general population, some of whom will be

> carrying and spreading the virus.

>

> The best way to avoid any exposure is to isolate yourself during flu

> season. This has some inconvenience attached to it. The ironic

thing,

> however, to the isolation solution, is that if you did it every

season,

> then you'd be totally unprotected to the future strains that would

be

> similar to ones you'd have grown you own antibodies to in fight in

> previous years' infections. You'd have decreased cross reactivity of

> your immune system to variants of old strains that others who did

not

> isolate themselves would have grown. Eventually, if you adopt the

> isolation solution you will be more vulnerable if you ever re-enter

> society. It has been argued that all the great epidemics that we are

> worried about are the direct consequences of close living in

groups, and

> that low density populations of humans would never have evolved

them.

> They emerged after we began to live in cities. This is the old arms

race

> between one species and another, when the benefit of one is partly

at

> the expense of the other.

>

>

> " FluMist, according to CDC, has no Thimerosol. "

> I never claimed that it did. The toxic compound would kill any

living

> virus, which is also why it has never been in the MMR vaccine. That

> would either be a mistake that you made or the spread of mis-

> information on your part.

>

> So, then, neither of us said it did. But CDC sure as shootin' said

it

> didn't. Which may be useful information for some people.

>

> If Dan Burton is your source, you need better ones.

>

> " If you are worried about mercury, I suggest you should look into

the

> industrial spills of mercury in Ashtabula County Ohio, which are

much

> more of a problem than thimerosal represents. "

>

> I concede that there are a great many " Hot Spots " for mercury

> contamination. This constant contamination has help fuel the FDA to

> restrict the consumption of larger predatory fish. However you are

> incorrect on one point. They are not " much more of a problem " they

> are part of the unnatural, man made, increase in exposure to the

most

> toxic substance that isn't radioactive on the face of the Earth. I

> will willing concede this point to you as soon as you provide both

me

> [sorry, I can't resist. You already conceded the point in the first

> sentence. My point was that real sources of mercury toxicity should

be

> considered more important than those without support.]

> and Representative Dan Burton with a peer reviewed study showing

that

> mercury in any form doesn't cause neurological damage.

>

> For the record, here is what I characterized as goofy: " Nobody,

after a

> vaccine or not, should blow their nose at an immunocompromised

person,

> so the suggestion that getting the Flu Mist is somehow insidious for

> them in particular is pretty goofy. " If you did not suggest that

contact

> after FluMist is more dangerous to the immunicompromised than

exposing

> them to your otherwise illness-related coughs and sneezes, I stand

> corrected, but I still think you did. The fact is that you should

not

> visit the immunocompromised without precautions when you are sick,

> period. Obviously, it would be preferable o get the shot which used

> inactivated viruses because you don't then get a mild case of the

> illness. The trouble is that in many places, the shots are all used

up.

>

> I am disagreeing with your statements and your beliefs.

>

> <snip>However I am

> civil enough to present my ideas without discounting yours.

>

> No thanks.

>

> I highly recommend that you <snip>

>

> <snip>

> >

> > A. Mulick, Ph.D.

> > Professor, Pediatrics & Psychology

> > The Ohio State University

> > Columbus Children's Hospital

> > 700 Children's Drive. CHPB-4

> > Columbus, OH 43205-2696

> > [No institutional endorsement of message content implied]

> >

[Guest guest]

No evidence. I don't understand how you can say that. If someone is tested for evidence of heavy metal toxicity and it's positive, then chelation steps are taken and the metal levels are reduced, and the person's quality of life (i.e. socialization, immunological responses, language abilities to name a few) improve, how can that not be evidence of the harmful affects of heavy metal toxicity?

I recall a respected orthopedist once explaining to me that the physician community, as a whole, refused to endorse aspirin therapy for years because they didn't understand exactly how it worked. They knew it worked, yes, but until they could scientifically explain how it worked they wouldn't endorse it.

So, I know there are studies out there by families and health care providers who treat children with autism who say that Thimerosal exacerbates a child's autistic symptoms, and once the mercury burden in the child's body is reduced the child's autistic symptoms decreases. And, I know that there are studies out that were funded by the manufacturers of the vaccines containing Thimerosal that say that mercury has no affect on children with autism. I can speak from first hand experience that once we reduced the mercury burden in my daughter's body her language abilities and socialization increased dramatically, and her anxiety levels reduced. Her evident exposure to mercury was (a) my receiving a RhoGam injection while she was in utero and ( during her vaccines.

It's not my responsibility to know what preservative alternatives there are for vaccines. It's the responsibility of those who manufacture the vaccines, and those who endorse and approve them, to ensure their safety. I may be considered limited in my ability to understand medical research, but I understand thoroughly my child's response to the removal of mercury from her body.

-----Original Message-----From: james A. Mulick [mailto:mulick.1@...] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 11:11 AMautism Subject: RE: Flu Mist Vaccine campaign

One note of information. There is no evidence that Thimerosal in quantities used as preservative in vaccines or other products is harmful. The fact that it has been taken out of some medical products is a matter of marketing rather than safety. If people are afraid of a product they will not buy it. Poisons are abundant in our lives, every drug that people get in physicians' prescriptions that I can think of (and most OTC drugs too) are also poisons in the right quantity; and we all take risks with every breath, many that are completely unknown. You have to balance the known risks against the known benefits of every action, and you obviously cannot factor out the unknown risks and benefits. It is always appropriate to reduce known risks by adopting less risky alternatives as they become available. The problem is that in a still largely privatized medical economy, decisions as well as available options can reflect popular preference based on poorly understood, often incorrect, ideas about risks and benefits. What do you or I know about alternatives to Thimerosal as a preservative? Not much unless we take extraordinary steps to find out, and then we may be limited by our limitations in the background needed to understand the information we research.

A. Mulick, Ph.D.

Professor, Pediatrics & Psychology

The Ohio State University

Columbus Children's Hospital

700 Children's Drive. CHPB-4

Columbus, OH 43205-2696

[No institutional endorsement of message content implied]

-----Original Message-----From: M. [mailto:wmks1983@...] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:33 AMautism Subject: RE: Flu Mist Vaccine campaign

[james A. Mulick] <snip>

And just the fact that Thimerosal is in vaccines blows my mind. They took it out of contact lens solution and ear drops for adults because of it's harmful effects, yet they shoot it into babies. And, they shoot it into babies who don't yet produce bile -- the very ingredient required to process toxic metals so that they can be voided.

Let me end this by saying that I don't think mercury "causes" autism, but it sure as heck causes significant harm and lasting complications in people with autism.

<snip>

[Guest guest]

A. Mulick, Ph.D.

Professor, Pediatrics & Psychology

The Ohio State University

Columbus Children's Hospital

700 Children's Drive. CHPB-4

Columbus, OH 43205-2696

[No institutional endorsement of message content implied]

-----Original Message-----From: M. [mailto:wmks1983@...] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 2:56 PMautism Subject: RE: Flu Mist Vaccine campaignThat is just it, after about 3000 kids with autism (yes, kids with autism, not kids in general) in a career of almost 30 years, this is just exactly what I have not seen.

No evidence. I don't understand how you can say that. If someone is tested for evidence of heavy metal toxicity and it's positive, then chelation steps are taken and the metal levels are reduced, and the person's quality of life (i.e. socialization, immunological responses, language abilities to name a few) improve, how can that not be evidence of the harmful affects of heavy metal toxicity? [james A. Mulick]

That is just it, after about 3000 kids with autism (yes, kids with autism, not kids in general) in a career of almost 30 years, this is just exactly what I have not seen.

I recall a respected orthopedist once explaining to me that the physician community, as a whole, refused to endorse aspirin therapy for years because they didn't understand exactly how it worked. They knew it worked, yes, but until they could scientifically explain how it worked they wouldn't endorse it. [james A. Mulick]

That is what they say, no question about it. It is just that saying something, even if you say it often and vigorously, is not the same as evidence. The scientific evidence fails to confirm these sayings.

So, I know there are studies out there by families and health care providers who treat children with autism who say that Thimerosal exacerbates a child's autistic symptoms, and once the mercury burden in the child's body is reduced the child's autistic symptoms decreases. And, I know that there are studies out that were funded by the manufacturers of the vaccines containing Thimerosal that say that mercury has no affect on children with autism. I can speak from first hand experience that once we reduced the mercury burden in my daughter's body her language abilities and socialization increased dramatically, and her anxiety levels reduced. Her evident exposure to mercury was (a) my receiving a RhoGam injection while she was in utero and ( during her vaccines.

[james A. Mulick] It is not a matter of mere responsibility. If it were, it would be easy. The problem is understanding, though, isn't it?

It's not my responsibility to know what preservative alternatives there are for vaccines. It's the responsibility of those who manufacture the vaccines, and those who endorse and approve them, to ensure their safety. I may be considered limited in my ability to understand medical research, but I understand thoroughly my child's response to the removal of mercury from her body.

[james A. Mulick] <snip>

[Guest guest]

:

I agree with you 100%. I remember stating to a professional (not an M.D. but someone with a PhD in biology), "people with autism have an enlarged amygdala. If you remove the mercury, the amygdala is still enlarged." He then asked me how I could be sure that the amygdala didn't reduce because of mercury toxicity, and once removed it shrank down to size.

Missy

-----Original Message-----From: Lake260@... [mailto:Lake260@...] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 12:36 PMautism Subject: Re: Flu Mist Vaccine campaign

In a message dated 12/18/2003 9:35:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, wmks1983@... writes:

Let me end this by saying that I don't think mercury "causes" autism, but it sure as heck causes significant harm and lasting complications in people with autism.

I don't think mercury causes autism, but I believe many cases of autism are actually mercury poisoning. IF you look at the symptoms of mercury poisoning vs signs of autism, they match just about one for one.