Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Posted November 22, 2004 I asked this question to Deiter at IMA electronics - he makes the sensors and he stated that silver works just fine Mark Berman, Psy.D. Re: Re: Cleaning leads Why use the gold plated when pure silver leads work very well and do not have a plating that wears off. I would echo Val's appreciation of Dieter at IMA who makes great electrodes [ 352-378-7551 ] Hank Mann Henry Mann, MDWork 860-536-6023Cell 860-705-9211188 Wolf Neck RoadStonington, CT 06378 Quote
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Posted November 22, 2004 I asked this question to Deiter at IMA electronics - he makes the sensors and he stated that silver works just fine Mark Berman, Psy.D. Re: Re: Cleaning leads Why use the gold plated when pure silver leads work very well and do not have a plating that wears off. I would echo Val's appreciation of Dieter at IMA who makes great electrodes [ 352-378-7551 ] Hank Mann Henry Mann, MDWork 860-536-6023Cell 860-705-9211188 Wolf Neck RoadStonington, CT 06378 Quote
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Posted November 22, 2004 Rosemary, I've been using silver electrodes for several years now and have not had a problem with them at all. No problems with noise, good signal quality. I have not seen any real difference, exept that the cast silver electrodes I use hold up much better with saline. I never found a set of gold electrodes that lasted more than a couple months without flaking. On Nov 22, 2004, at 9:11 PM, Rosemary Herron wrote: > Hank and Mark, > > Bill at BrainMaster told me silver electrodes would be too noisy to > use. Another person told me they are better than gold for less > noise. I used them, got great signals, less hibeta than usual. Then > when I told this to a third person he said the silver didn't pick up > as much signal that's why readings were lower... and therefore it was > not good to use. HELP!!!! Does anyone have some input on this based > on facts rather than opinions? > > Rosemary H. > Re: Re: Cleaning leads > > > Why use the gold plated when pure silver leads work very well and do > not have a plating that wears off. I would echo Val's appreciation of > Dieter at IMA who makes great electrodes [ 352-378-7551 ] > > Hank Mann > > Henry Mann, MD > > Work 860-536-6023 > Cell 860-705-9211 > 188 Wolf Neck Road > Stonington, CT 06378 > > > > > > Quote
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Posted November 22, 2004 , Where do you get them from? Jo Sato -----Original Message----- From: [mailto:gmartin@...] Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 2:16 PM Subject: Re: leads-silver ones Rosemary, I've been using silver electrodes for several years now and have not had a problem with them at all. No problems with noise, good signal quality. I have not seen any real difference, exept that the cast silver electrodes I use hold up much better with saline. I never found a set of gold electrodes that lasted more than a couple months without flaking. On Nov 22, 2004, at 9:11 PM, Rosemary Herron wrote: Hank and Mark, Bill at BrainMaster told me silver electrodes would be too noisy to use. Another person told me they are better than gold for less noise. I used them, got great signals, less hibeta than usual. Then when I told this to a third person he said the silver didn't pick up as much signal that's why readings were lower... and therefore it was not good to use. HELP!!!! Does anyone have some input on this based on facts rather than opinions? Rosemary H. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Berman, Psy.D. To: Sent:Monday, November 22, 2004 9:24 PM Subject:Re: Re: Cleaning leads and at a cheaper price Mark Berman, Psy.D. Re: Re: Cleaning leads Why use the gold plated when pure silver leads work very well and do not have a plating that wears off. I would echo Val's appreciation of Dieter at IMA who makes great electrodes [ 352-378-7551 ] Hank Mann Henry Mann, MD Work 860-536-6023 Cell 860-705-9211 188 Wolf Neck Road Stonington, CT 06378 Quote
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Posted November 22, 2004 , Where do you get them from? Jo Sato -----Original Message----- From: [mailto:gmartin@...] Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 2:16 PM Subject: Re: leads-silver ones Rosemary, I've been using silver electrodes for several years now and have not had a problem with them at all. No problems with noise, good signal quality. I have not seen any real difference, exept that the cast silver electrodes I use hold up much better with saline. I never found a set of gold electrodes that lasted more than a couple months without flaking. On Nov 22, 2004, at 9:11 PM, Rosemary Herron wrote: Hank and Mark, Bill at BrainMaster told me silver electrodes would be too noisy to use. Another person told me they are better than gold for less noise. I used them, got great signals, less hibeta than usual. Then when I told this to a third person he said the silver didn't pick up as much signal that's why readings were lower... and therefore it was not good to use. HELP!!!! Does anyone have some input on this based on facts rather than opinions? Rosemary H. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Berman, Psy.D. To: Sent:Monday, November 22, 2004 9:24 PM Subject:Re: Re: Cleaning leads and at a cheaper price Mark Berman, Psy.D. Re: Re: Cleaning leads Why use the gold plated when pure silver leads work very well and do not have a plating that wears off. I would echo Val's appreciation of Dieter at IMA who makes great electrodes [ 352-378-7551 ] Hank Mann Henry Mann, MD Work 860-536-6023 Cell 860-705-9211 188 Wolf Neck Road Stonington, CT 06378 Quote
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Posted November 23, 2004 Dear Rosemary, For reminders - text of translators {explains} computer programme Our experiences( plus wife) from over 25 years practice eeg and 3 years neurofeedback: - in used channel, electrodes should be from this of oneself material - especially, identical should be : reference and active; earthing can be other. If electrode reference and active are executed from different materials( for example: tin and silver), this in spite of ideal resistances, to our surprise - instead signal eeg We can receive line flat !!!. ( saturation and blockade to input{enter} of amplifiers) .Wife affirms, that bad electrode, will be able to give, act alpha. ( changes electrode and is well) In my device neurofeedback Brainfeedback, such flat line comes into being always, if I will use on electrodes: tin and Ag\AgCl - tin electrodes( used) delivered astounding activities delta, of which patient never earlier did not show. In this chance, easily I found source not physiological acts - electrodes Ag\AgCl + Ten20, statistically, show, 2-2,5 smaller resistance, than tin - electrodes. Without difficulties, from once, we obtain resistances 1-5 Kohm. Unfortunately, electrode AgCl has tendencies to wiping layers AgCl and then it is necessary electrodes to regenerate by {through} galvanization.( very straight and pleasant work ). Layer AgCl received it is galvanically more durable,than received chemically( acid ). My electrodes eeg Ag\AgCl I regenerate one once on 6 months( 50 of investigations in month) - electrodes from gold I do not use. Dear and lack possibility straight regeneration. - noises of electrodes. Have a look on drawing : Registration noise pair electrodes, placed in paste leading in distances 3 cm. A) Silver - electrodes covered with verdigris These oneself electrodes cleaned up to polish, C) These oneself electrodes covered with galvanic chloride silver. D) These oneself electrodes with partly scraped off chloride silver. Used electrode( bad) Electrode after regeneration MSc Eng in Electronics Jan j Studio EEG-BIOFEEDBACK.Poland. www.eeg-biofeedback.com.pl ******************************************************************************* Droga Rosemary, nasze doświadczenia(plus żona) z ponad 25 lat praktyki eeg i 3 lata neurofeedback: - w używanym kanale, elektrody powinny być z tego samego materiału - szczególnie, identyczne powinny być: referencyjna i aktywna;uziemiajaca może byc inna. Jeżeli elektroda referencyjna i aktywna są wykonane z różnych materiałów(przykładowo : cynowa i srebrna), to mimo idealnych oporów,ku naszemu zdziwieniu -zamiast sygnału eeg możemy otrzymać linię płaską !!!. (nasycenie i blokada wejść wzmacniaczy).Żona twierdzi , że zła elektroda , potrafi dawać , czynność alfa . (zmienia elektrodę i jest dobrze) W moim urządzeniu neurofeedback Brainfeedback,taka linia płaska powstaje zawsze, jeżeli użyję elektrod :cynowej i Ag\AgCl - elektrody cynowe(zużyte) dostarczały zdumiewającej działalności delta,której pacjent nigdy wcześniej nie pokazywał. W tym przypadku,łatwo odnalazłem źródło niefizjologicznejj czynności - elektrody Ag\AgCl +pasta Ten20 ,statystycznie,wykazują,2-2,5 raza mniejszą oporność,aniżeli elektrody cynowe. Bez trudności,od razu,uzyskujemy opory 1-5 Kohm.Niestety,elektroda AgCl ma tendencje do wycierania warstwy AgCl i wówczas trzeba elektrody regenerować przez galwanizację.(bardzo prosta i przyjemna praca). Warstwa AgCl otrzymana galwanicznie jest trwalsza,aniżeli otrzymana chemicznie(działanie kwasu). Moje elektrody eeg Ag\AgCl regeneruję jeden raz na 6 miesięcy(ok. 50 badań w miesiącu) - elektrod ze złota nieużywam.Drogie i brak możliwości prostej regeneracji. - szumy elektrod.Popatrz na rysunek Rejestracja szumu pary elektrod, umieszczonych w paście przewodzącej w odległości 3 cm. A) Srebrne elektrody miseczkowe pokryte patyną, Te same elektrody wyczyszczone dopotysku, C) Te same elektrody pokryte galwanicznie chlorkiem srebra. D) Te same elektrody z częściowo zdrapanym chlorkiem srebra. Re: Re: Cleaning leads Why use the gold plated when pure silver leads work very well and do not have a plating that wears off. I would echo Val's appreciation of Dieter at IMA who makes great electrodes [ 352-378-7551 ] Hank Mann Henry Mann, MDWork 860-536-6023Cell 860-705-9211188 Wolf Neck RoadStonington, CT 06378List sprawdzony skanerem poczty mks_vir Quote
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Posted November 23, 2004 Dear Rosemary, For reminders - text of translators {explains} computer programme Our experiences( plus wife) from over 25 years practice eeg and 3 years neurofeedback: - in used channel, electrodes should be from this of oneself material - especially, identical should be : reference and active; earthing can be other. If electrode reference and active are executed from different materials( for example: tin and silver), this in spite of ideal resistances, to our surprise - instead signal eeg We can receive line flat !!!. ( saturation and blockade to input{enter} of amplifiers) .Wife affirms, that bad electrode, will be able to give, act alpha. ( changes electrode and is well) In my device neurofeedback Brainfeedback, such flat line comes into being always, if I will use on electrodes: tin and Ag\AgCl - tin electrodes( used) delivered astounding activities delta, of which patient never earlier did not show. In this chance, easily I found source not physiological acts - electrodes Ag\AgCl + Ten20, statistically, show, 2-2,5 smaller resistance, than tin - electrodes. Without difficulties, from once, we obtain resistances 1-5 Kohm. Unfortunately, electrode AgCl has tendencies to wiping layers AgCl and then it is necessary electrodes to regenerate by {through} galvanization.( very straight and pleasant work ). Layer AgCl received it is galvanically more durable,than received chemically( acid ). My electrodes eeg Ag\AgCl I regenerate one once on 6 months( 50 of investigations in month) - electrodes from gold I do not use. Dear and lack possibility straight regeneration. - noises of electrodes. Have a look on drawing : Registration noise pair electrodes, placed in paste leading in distances 3 cm. A) Silver - electrodes covered with verdigris These oneself electrodes cleaned up to polish, C) These oneself electrodes covered with galvanic chloride silver. D) These oneself electrodes with partly scraped off chloride silver. Used electrode( bad) Electrode after regeneration MSc Eng in Electronics Jan j Studio EEG-BIOFEEDBACK.Poland. www.eeg-biofeedback.com.pl ******************************************************************************* Droga Rosemary, nasze doświadczenia(plus żona) z ponad 25 lat praktyki eeg i 3 lata neurofeedback: - w używanym kanale, elektrody powinny być z tego samego materiału - szczególnie, identyczne powinny być: referencyjna i aktywna;uziemiajaca może byc inna. Jeżeli elektroda referencyjna i aktywna są wykonane z różnych materiałów(przykładowo : cynowa i srebrna), to mimo idealnych oporów,ku naszemu zdziwieniu -zamiast sygnału eeg możemy otrzymać linię płaską !!!. (nasycenie i blokada wejść wzmacniaczy).Żona twierdzi , że zła elektroda , potrafi dawać , czynność alfa . (zmienia elektrodę i jest dobrze) W moim urządzeniu neurofeedback Brainfeedback,taka linia płaska powstaje zawsze, jeżeli użyję elektrod :cynowej i Ag\AgCl - elektrody cynowe(zużyte) dostarczały zdumiewającej działalności delta,której pacjent nigdy wcześniej nie pokazywał. W tym przypadku,łatwo odnalazłem źródło niefizjologicznejj czynności - elektrody Ag\AgCl +pasta Ten20 ,statystycznie,wykazują,2-2,5 raza mniejszą oporność,aniżeli elektrody cynowe. Bez trudności,od razu,uzyskujemy opory 1-5 Kohm.Niestety,elektroda AgCl ma tendencje do wycierania warstwy AgCl i wówczas trzeba elektrody regenerować przez galwanizację.(bardzo prosta i przyjemna praca). Warstwa AgCl otrzymana galwanicznie jest trwalsza,aniżeli otrzymana chemicznie(działanie kwasu). Moje elektrody eeg Ag\AgCl regeneruję jeden raz na 6 miesięcy(ok. 50 badań w miesiącu) - elektrod ze złota nieużywam.Drogie i brak możliwości prostej regeneracji. - szumy elektrod.Popatrz na rysunek Rejestracja szumu pary elektrod, umieszczonych w paście przewodzącej w odległości 3 cm. A) Srebrne elektrody miseczkowe pokryte patyną, Te same elektrody wyczyszczone dopotysku, C) Te same elektrody pokryte galwanicznie chlorkiem srebra. D) Te same elektrody z częściowo zdrapanym chlorkiem srebra. Re: Re: Cleaning leads Why use the gold plated when pure silver leads work very well and do not have a plating that wears off. I would echo Val's appreciation of Dieter at IMA who makes great electrodes [ 352-378-7551 ] Hank Mann Henry Mann, MDWork 860-536-6023Cell 860-705-9211188 Wolf Neck RoadStonington, CT 06378List sprawdzony skanerem poczty mks_vir Quote
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Posted November 23, 2004 Rosemary: The issue of leads is IME one of the other major areas of NF training that led themselves most easily to the forces of habit, style and history. I have always preferred gold sensors with shallow cups. I prefer them because they are light, easy to clean (kleenex and/or hot water), adhere to the training locations that we use (in ways that the flat disks don't), and it's easy to tell when they start to degrade as you can see where the gold begins to wear off. Silver are certainly fine too but CAN present some problems with noise depending on the exact hardware and software being used. Some software will simply not show this noise activity due to how the digital signal processing (DSP) is actually done or displayed in the software. For most training purposes this issue of noise will not really be a " problem " -- more of an inconvenience perhaps, but this also depends on what training targets you are using and, again, the overall quality of the DSP involved. Using targets below 40 Hz on most systems will be fine -- if targeting at 40 Hz is desired this issue of noise MAY become more of a concern but even then it will quite likely still be useful. There are degrees of precision involved and those may or may not be all that relevant in any particular situation. I personally do not like tin sensors although I understand that Lubar still strongly prefers them -- and that is the reason that they were the " default " sensors distributed by Thought Technology with their equipment (as well as some others). Tin sensors are heavy (compared to either gold or silver) and generally much more difficult to clean. Saline sensors (either sponge or felt) do provide some attractive qualities, including no need for paste! But I find that the sponges crumble easily -- and pretty quickly -- whereas the felt versions tend to have some compromised signal quality. So it's a real trade off concerning ease of application and actual signal quality desired and, again, the issue will not be that terribly relevant necessarily if one doesn't train at -- or above -- 40 Hz. The biggest thing thought is to remain consistent in your choice. It is really " not good thing " to intermix sensor types. As I said up top, I prefer gold, shallow cups and find that IMA is a great source. Be advised though that his business has really picked up over the last year and he is now stating that orders can take up to 4 weeks to process -- so order BEFORE you really need that replacement! val > Hank and Mark, > > Bill at BrainMaster told me silver electrodes would be too noisy to use. Another person told me they are better than gold for less noise. I used them, got great signals, less hibeta than usual. Then when I told this to a third person he said the silver didn't pick up as much signal that's why readings were lower... and therefore it was not good to use. HELP!!!! Does anyone have some input on this based on facts rather than opinions? > > Rosemary H. > Re: Re: Cleaning leads > > > Why use the gold plated when pure silver leads work very well and do not have a plating that wears off. I would echo Val's appreciation of Dieter at IMA who makes great electrodes [ 352-378- 7551 ] > > Hank Mann > > Henry Mann, MD > > Work 860-536-6023 > Cell 860-705-9211 > 188 Wolf Neck Road > Stonington, CT 06378 > > > Quote
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Posted November 23, 2004 MVAP medical supplies they are on the web On Nov 22, 2004, at 11:17 PM, Neurofeedback Japan wrote: > , > > > > Where do you get them from? > > > > Jo Sato > > > > Re: leads-silver ones > > > > Rosemary, > > I've been using silver electrodes for several years now and have not > had a problem with them at all. No problems with noise, good signal > quality. I have not seen any real difference, exept that the cast > silver electrodes I use hold up much better with saline. I never found > a set of gold electrodes that lasted more than a couple months without > flaking. > > > On Nov 22, 2004, at 9:11 PM, Rosemary Herron wrote: > > Hank and Mark, > > Bill at BrainMaster told me silver electrodes would be too noisy to > use. Another person told me they are better than gold for less > noise. I used them, got great signals, less hibeta than usual. Then > when I told this to a third person he said the silver didn't pick up > as much signal that's why readings were lower... and therefore it was > not good to use. HELP!!!! Does anyone have some input on this based > on facts rather than opinions? > > Rosemary H. > Re: Re: Cleaning leads > > > Why use the gold plated when pure silver leads work very well and do > not have a plating that wears off. I would echo Val's appreciation of > Dieter at IMA who makes great electrodes [ 352-378-7551 ] > > Hank Mann > > Henry Mann, MD > > Work 860-536-6023 > Cell 860-705-9211 > 188 Wolf Neck Road > Stonington, CT 06378 > > > > > > Quote
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Posted November 23, 2004 Dear Jan, I think this is good information. As this data shows, pure clean silver electrodes produce a large amount of noise, which can appear as 25-50 microvolts or more of noise and drift, which will show up as false delta and theta. See trace B below, for a dramatic illustration of this noise and drift when using polished silver electrodes. We biomedical engineers had it drilled into us that pure silver was not an advisable material for EEG, and that silver must be chlorided in order to obtain good signals. However, maintaining silver chloride on the electrodes is a maintenance headache. This data confirms all of this very nicely. So for what it's worth, I do recommend gold (as used in the Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic, and most hospital EEG labs), or else silver chloride, which is used in may very good types of disposable electrodes, for example. Maybe tin, but not pure silver. I just wanted people to understand why we don't recommend silver electrodes, and what the reasoning is. Tom Re: Re: Cleaning leads Why use the gold plated when pure silver leads work very well and do not have a plating that wears off. I would echo Val's appreciation of Dieter at IMA who makes great electrodes [ 352-378-7551 ] Hank Mann Henry Mann, MDWork 860-536-6023Cell 860-705-9211188 Wolf Neck RoadStonington, CT 06378 List sprawdzony skanerem poczty mks_vir Quote
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Posted November 23, 2004 Dear Tom : This it is necessary to remember : Chlorided silver electrodes present less low frequency "noise" than either gold or silver electrodes. www.grass-telefactor.com/knowledgebase/sterile7.html This truth, golden electrodes cause less trouble, but are resoluteness dearer . Choosing electrode, it is necessary to know her characterization( producer !), to execute of conscious choice of electrode to realized assignments . I do not speak, that electrode of gold or silver - or other is bad . Choice depends from aim and environments ( gel, paste, brine, immediate contact ) Every electrode has one's own specificity, which it is necessary to recognize. Therefore we discuss. Jan To prawda, złote elektrody sprawiają mniej kłopotu,ale są zdecydowanie droższe. Wybierając elektrodę,trzeba znać jej charakterystykę(producent !),aby dokonać świadomego wyboru elektrody do realizowanego zadania. Nie mówię,że elektroda złota lub srebrna lub inna jest zła. Wybór zależy od celu i środowiska(żel,pasta,solanka,bezpośredni kontakt) Każda elektroda ma swoją specyfikę,którą trzeba poznać. Dlatego dyskutujemy. Rechloriding & Storing Grass Ag/AgCl Electrodes Introduction The Silver-Silver Chloride electrode has been shown to possess superior characteristics to that of unchlorided silver electrodes when used for recording low level AC and DC potentials. Chlorided silver electrodes present less low frequency "noise" than either gold or silver electrodes. The Grass Silver-Silver Chloride electrodes are constructed of pure silver and then chlorided to provide the stability and low noise characteristics. The chloriding process changes the shiny silver appearance to the dark gray color. It should also be noted that the silver-silver chloride electrode is photo sensitive, changing it's potential slightly when exposed to light. Therefore, if these electrodes are used during photic stimulation studies, they may need to be shaded or covered to prevent light artifact. Since the chloriding process deposits chloride ions on the silver surface, care must be taken during handling and storage to avoid scratching or abrading the electrode surface, which will remove part of the chloride surface. If this happens, it is possible to rechloride the electrode. Rechloriding the Electrode 1. Thoroughly clean the silver surface electrodes of tarnish and dirt. Scouring powder or silver cleaner may be used. 2. Place the electrode in an opaque non-metallic container with 5% salt (NaCl) solution. 3. Connect the electrode to be chlorided in the (+) positive terminal of a 1.5 volt battery and the other electrode to the (-) negative terminal. Use a 100 ohm resister in series with the electrode. 4. The chloriding electrode darkens, while the other bubbles. Continue until the darkened surface is evenly coated. Storing the Ag/AgCl Electrodes To preserve the chlorided surface when not in use, it is recommended that the electrodes be stored in a salt solution, such as a sterile saline solution. If desired, it is possible to add 0.1% Zepherin Chloride as an anti-bacterial agent. 1: Biomed Tech (Berl). 2002;47 Suppl 1 Pt 2:514-6. Related Articles, Links Considerations on noise of electrodes in combination with amplifiers for bioelectrical signal recording.Koch KP, Schuettler M, Stieglitz T.Fraunhofer Institute for Biomedical Engineering, St. Ingbert, Germany. Klauspeter.Koch@...Detection of weak bioelectrical signals needs a recording system with a very low system noise. In this paper, the noise of electrodes as well as the influence of different combinations of electrodes and amplifiers on the system noise was investigated. As a first result the electrodes noise is similar to the noise of a passive electronic part with the same impedance. For smaller electrodes a reduction of the electrode impedance will reduce the system noise, also for larger electrodes the electrode itself is not the dominant noise source, so that an improvement of the amplifier is the way to get a better system. A special amplifier was tested with iridium and platinum black electrodes of different sizes.PMID: 12465222 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 1: Biomed Tech (Berl). 2002;47 Suppl 1 Pt 2:514-6. Related Articles, Links Noise characteristics of stainless-steel surface electrodes.Godin DT, PA, RN.Electrical Engineering Department, University of New Brunswick, Canada.Bioelectric events measured with surface electrodes are subject to noise components which may be significant in comparison with low-level biological signals such as evoked neuroelectric potentials, and myoelectric potentials. In an effort to better understand noise arising from these electrodes, electrode and measurement system noise is modelled. The effect of electrode surface area on electrode impedance and noise is studied using circular stainless-steel electrodes of varying diameters. The main contributions of the work are the development of a model for stainless-steel electrode noise as a function of electrode area, and demonstrating that, for the band-width of interest to evoked neuroelectric and myoelectric signals (8-10,000 Hz), the primary noise components are thermal and amplifier current generated. The magnitudes of both of these depend on the electrode impedance magnitude. Electrode impedance is shown to be a power function of both electrode diameter and frequency, consistent with a capacitive electrode model.PMID: 1813753 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Re: Re: Cleaning leads Why use the gold plated when pure silver leads work very well and do not have a plating that wears off. I would echo Val's appreciation of Dieter at IMA who makes great electrodes [ 352-378-7551 ] Hank Mann Henry Mann, MDWork 860-536-6023Cell 860-705-9211188 Wolf Neck RoadStonington, CT 06378 List sprawdzony skanerem poczty mks_virList sprawdzony skanerem poczty mks_vir Quote
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Posted November 23, 2004 Dear Jan, Yes, I agree that Silver Chloride is the most ideal electrode material know at this time, for EEG and related work. If you can manage the care and use of them, they are the best for clean signals. I also agree that other issues impact whether you may choose some other material. Thanks for providing these useful references! Best Regards, Tom Re: Re: Cleaning leads Why use the gold plated when pure silver leads work very well and do not have a plating that wears off. I would echo Val's appreciation of Dieter at IMA who makes great electrodes [ 352-378-7551 ] Hank Mann Henry Mann, MDWork 860-536-6023Cell 860-705-9211188 Wolf Neck RoadStonington, CT 06378 List sprawdzony skanerem poczty mks_vir List sprawdzony skanerem poczty mks_vir Quote
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Posted November 23, 2004 Tom: Yes, but that is an important “IF” as many users will not exercise the proper “care and feeding” of their sensors and then that can precipitate some real signal-related issues for some users on some systems. It is because of this – as well as personal preference – that I recommend using gold. It’s a good, fault-tolerant option IME. val From: Tom Collura [mailto:tomc@...] Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 12:43 PM Subject: Re: leads-silver ones Dear Jan, Yes, I agree that Silver Chloride is the most ideal electrode material know at this time, for EEG and related work. If you can manage the care and use of them, they are the best for clean signals. I also agree that other issues impact whether you may choose some other material. Thanks for providing these useful references! Best Regards, Tom Re: Re: Cleaning leads Why use the gold plated when pure silver leads work very well and do not have a plating that wears off. I would echo Val's appreciation of Dieter at IMA who makes great electrodes [ 352-378-7551 ] Hank Mann Henry Mann, MD Work 860-536-6023 Cell 860-705-9211 188 Wolf Neck Road Stonington, CT 06378 List sprawdzony skanerem poczty mks_vir List sprawdzony skanerem poczty mks_vir Quote
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Posted November 23, 2004 Dear Tom, Last 2 cents : To treating with chloride I use 12 V DC and current 0,3-0,5 mA/electrode. Time of treating with chloride: 4-5 hours. Used electrodes to clean and to remove the fat. In one glass, one can treat with chloride 4-6 of electrodes. After this of intervention laboratory assistant eeg, greets me with warm smile. Pleasant work . Jan ostatnie 2 centy : do chlorkowania używam 12 V DC i prądu 0,3-0,5 mA/elektroda. Czas chlorkowania : 4-5 godzin. Zużyte elektrody oczyścić i odtłuścić. W jednej szklance, można chlorkować 4-6 elektrod. Po tym zabiegu laborantka eeg,wita mnie ciepłym uśmiechem. Przyjemnej pracy. Jan Re: Re: Cleaning leads Why use the gold plated when pure silver leads work very well and do not have a plating that wears off. I would echo Val's appreciation of Dieter at IMA who makes great electrodes [ 352-378-7551 ] Hank Mann Henry Mann, MDWork 860-536-6023Cell 860-705-9211188 Wolf Neck RoadStonington, CT 06378 List sprawdzony skanerem poczty mks_vir List sprawdzony skanerem poczty mks_virList sprawdzony skanerem poczty mks_vir Quote
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Posted November 23, 2004 Val, .... identically one can say about golden electrode.... Decreases gold - my sentence - will cause greater confusion in taken signal, than electrode Ag\AgCl. Defective golds electrode is more " sowing " than Ag\AgCl. Which one are sentences other, in this theme ? Jan .... identycznie mo¿na powiedzieæ o z³otej elektrodzie.... Ubytki z³ota - moim zdaniem - spowoduj± wiêksze zamieszanie w odbieranym sygnale, ni¿ elektroda Ag\AgCl. Wadliwa z³ota elektroda jest bardziej "siej±ca" ni¿ AG\AgCl. Jakie s± zdania innych , w tym temacie ? Jan Re: Re: Cleaning leads Why use the gold plated when pure silver leads work very well and do not have a plating that wears off. I would echo Val's appreciation of Dieter at IMA who makes great electrodes [ 352-378-7551 ] Hank Mann Henry Mann, MDWork 860-536-6023Cell 860-705-9211188 Wolf Neck RoadStonington, CT 06378 List sprawdzony skanerem poczty mks_vir List sprawdzony skanerem poczty mks_vir List sprawdzony skanerem poczty mks_vir Quote
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Posted November 23, 2004 Jan: Yes, as you say, “decreases gold…will cause greater confusion in taken signal” but when gold begins to wear off it is easier for the user to SEE that change visually. Some have trouble distinguishing the silver degrading from the underlying surface and can’t really tell when a problem may be occurring. Of course being able to directly see the 50/60 Hz activity of the mains current while training will also be a BIG indicator that something may be changing. val From: STUDIO EEG-BIOFEEDBACK. POLAND [mailto:soliserw@...] Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 2:04 PM Subject: Re: leads-silver ones Val, .... identically one can say about golden electrode.... Decreases gold - my sentence - will cause greater confusion in taken signal, than electrode Ag\AgCl. Defective golds electrode is more " sowing " than Ag\AgCl. Which one are sentences other, in this theme ? Jan .... identycznie mo¿na powiedzieæ o z³otej elektrodzie.... Ubytki z³ota - moim zdaniem - spowoduj± wiêksze zamieszanie w odbieranym sygnale, ni¿ elektroda Ag\AgCl. Wadliwa z³ota elektroda jest bardziej " siej±ca " ni¿ AG\AgCl. Jakie s± zdania innych , w tym temacie ? Jan Re: Re: Cleaning leads Why use the gold plated when pure silver leads work very well and do not have a plating that wears off. I would echo Val's appreciation of Dieter at IMA who makes great electrodes [ 352-378-7551 ] Hank Mann Henry Mann, MD Work 860-536-6023 Cell 860-705-9211 188 Wolf Neck Road Stonington, CT 06378 List sprawdzony skanerem poczty mks_vir List sprawdzony skanerem poczty mks_vir List sprawdzony skanerem poczty mks_vir Quote
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Posted November 23, 2004 Val, " signals" defective electrodes, in bands 50/60 Hz, are agony of electrode and proof on this , that earlier we did not uncover her defectivenesses. Unpleasant surprises, difficult to detections, this addition false patterns in bands delta-theta, and even alpha. Having 1 or two channels, and most often one picture eeg.... even Val and Jay, can be deceived. Only view 8-16 channels, acquaintance of art eeg and one's own patient will permit on detection perfidiousaly defective electrodes. Advice is straight - it is necessary to have in reserve good complete set of electrodes. In chance of suspicions - to exchange electrodes. Silver whether gold - similarly will be able to deceive. Conclusion : let us take care for own eyes and electrodes. Jan "sygna³y" wadliwych elektrod, w pa¶mie 50/60 Hz, s± agoni± elektrody i dowodem na to, ¿e wcze¶niej nie odkryli¶my jej wadliwo¶ci. Przykre niespodzianki, trudne do wykrycia, to dodawanie fa³szywych wzorów w pa¶mie delta-theta, a nawet alfa. Maj±c 1 lub dwa kana³y, a najczê¶ciej jeden obraz eeg ....nawet Val i Jay, da siê oszukaæ. Tylko widok 8-16 kana³ów , znajomo¶æ sztuki eeg i swojego pacjenta pozwoli na wykrycie perfidnie wadliwej elektrody. Rada jest prosta - trzeba mieæ w zapasie sprawny komplet elektrod. W przypadku podejrzeñ -zamieniæ elektrody.Srebro czy z³oto -jednakowo potrafi± oszukaæ. Wniosek: dbajmy o w³asne oczy i elektrody. Re: Re: Cleaning leads Why use the gold plated when pure silver leads work very well and do not have a plating that wears off. I would echo Val's appreciation of Dieter at IMA who makes great electrodes [ 352-378-7551 ] Hank Mann Henry Mann, MDWork 860-536-6023Cell 860-705-9211188 Wolf Neck RoadStonington, CT 06378 List sprawdzony skanerem poczty mks_vir List sprawdzony skanerem poczty mks_vir List sprawdzony skanerem poczty mks_vir List sprawdzony skanerem poczty mks_vir Quote
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Posted November 23, 2004 Jan: Absolutely – always have spares on hand!! val From: STUDIO EEG-BIOFEEDBACK. POLAND [mailto:soliserw@...] Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 4:20 PM Subject: Re: leads-silver ones Val, " signals " defective electrodes, in bands 50/60 Hz, are agony of electrode and proof on this , that earlier we did not uncover her defectivenesses. Unpleasant surprises, difficult to detections, this addition false patterns in bands delta-theta, and even alpha. Having 1 or two channels, and most often one picture eeg.... even Val and Jay, can be deceived. Only view 8-16 channels, acquaintance of art eeg and one's own patient will permit on detection perfidiousaly defective electrodes. Advice is straight - it is necessary to have in reserve good complete set of electrodes. In chance of suspicions - to exchange electrodes. Silver whether gold - similarly will be able to deceive. Conclusion : let us take care for own eyes and electrodes. Jan " sygna³y " wadliwych elektrod, w pa¶mie 50/60 Hz, s± agoni± elektrody i dowodem na to, ¿e wcze¶niej nie odkryli¶my jej wadliwo¶ci. Przykre niespodzianki, trudne do wykrycia, to dodawanie fa³szywych wzorów w pa¶mie delta-theta, a nawet alfa. Maj±c 1 lub dwa kana³y, a najczê¶ciej jeden obraz eeg .....nawet Val i Jay, da siê oszukaæ. Tylko widok 8-16 kana³ów , znajomo¶æ sztuki eeg i swojego pacjenta pozwoli na wykrycie perfidnie wadliwej elektrody. Rada jest prosta - trzeba mieæ w zapasie sprawny komplet elektrod. W przypadku podejrzeñ -zamieniæ elektrody.Srebro czy z³oto -jednakowo potrafi± oszukaæ. Wniosek: dbajmy o w³asne oczy i elektrody. Re: Re: Cleaning leads Why use the gold plated when pure silver leads work very well and do not have a plating that wears off. I would echo Val's appreciation of Dieter at IMA who makes great electrodes [ 352-378-7551 ] Hank Mann Henry Mann, MD Work 860-536-6023 Cell 860-705-9211 188 Wolf Neck Road Stonington, CT 06378 List sprawdzony skanerem poczty mks_vir List sprawdzony skanerem poczty mks_vir List sprawdzony skanerem poczty mks_vir List sprawdzony skanerem poczty mks_vir Quote
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Posted November 23, 2004 Val, What is the conclusion then ? Silver are better, but more difficult to care for ? Please clarify - I am a little confused.. Thanks Ariane > Jan: > > > > Absolutely - always have spares on hand!! > > > > val > Quote
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Posted November 23, 2004 Ariane: I would say that, overall, gold is better but that is IME. And there is a lot of personal preferene in all of that. If you currently have gold I wouldn't change and if you currently have silber chloride I wouldn't change. If you're using tin, you have my sympathies.... ;-) val > > Jan: > > > > > > > > Absolutely - always have spares on hand!! > > > > > > > > val > > Quote
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2004 Report Posted November 24, 2004 Hahahahaahaha. Thanks. I will " stick " with the gold. Pun intended. Ariane > > > Jan: > > > > > > > > > > > > Absolutely - always have spares on hand!! > > > > > > > > > > > > val > > > Quote
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