Re: Re: Purification program

[Guest guest]

I've read quite a bit on niacin over the years and I have read again

and again that people should not take high doses (over 1 gm/day but

perhaps even less for people with any kind of liver illness) for an

extended period of time except under CLOSE DOCTOR SUPERVISION..

and that would mean an MD, not anything else..

Niacin is very useful, it is said, in lowering cholesterol, but there

can be complications and so this is what the health professionals

say..

And stay away from high-dose *sustained release* niacin

especially..unless your doctor tells you otherwise..

BTW, I'd imagine that total doses of 500 mg/day would probably be safe

for all, I am *pretty* sure. (Don't quote me on that, though Bob)

I take 250 mg. in the evenings because I find it helps me sleep.. YMMV

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Carl.

" Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote: Serena,

I didn't have a single, identifiable mold exposure. I grew up in

massive exposures of mold, pollen, animal dander, solvents, DDT,

heavy metals, etc on a farm.

The intent of the sauna protocol that I did was to mobilize fat

soluable substances and any others that accumulate in the oil-based

structures of the body. When mobilized they are picked up by the

blood stream and carried to the various elimination organs of the

body. The skin is the largest organ and the sweat is the primary

pathway. The body fat isn't just the beer belly kind of fat but also

the nerve sheath and the cell membranes, which is where much of the

" communication " takes place. Whatever is water soluable - blood,

water, fluids - is contained inside a non-soluable " container " such

as blood vessels, organ surfaces, cell membranes. If they were not

oil based (not soluable in water) they would wash away and be

eliminated. Our whole body would be reduced to a puddle of " water. "

I don't know if mycotoxins are water soluable or oil soluable so I

can't answer the question of whether or not the sauna would help mold

victims. I also don't know how re-exposure from inside the body would

affect people or how those combinations of interactions would occur.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

Serena

There is no such thing as an anomaly. Recheck your original premise.

...Ayn Rand,

paraphrased

---------------------------------

Photos

Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP.

[Guest guest]

Yes a lower dose I think would be fine. Of course the program is short term

anyway.

I didn't know niacin could help you sleep. I have major trouble with that

right now. Loni

LiveSimply <quackadillian@...> wrote:

I've read quite a bit on niacin over the years and I have read again

and again that people should not take high doses (over 1 gm/day but

perhaps even less for people with any kind of liver illness) for an

extended period of time except under CLOSE DOCTOR SUPERVISION..

and that would mean an MD, not anything else..

Niacin is very useful, it is said, in lowering cholesterol, but there

can be complications and so this is what the health professionals

say..

And stay away from high-dose *sustained release* niacin

especially..unless your doctor tells you otherwise..

BTW, I'd imagine that total doses of 500 mg/day would probably be safe

for all, I am *pretty* sure. (Don't quote me on that, though Bob)

I take 250 mg. in the evenings because I find it helps me sleep.. YMMV

FAIR USE NOTICE:

[Guest guest]

Carl,

There are so many mycotoxins that you can't generalize about things

like solubility. Let me give you an example, stachybotrys produces a

family of trichothecene mycotoxins called the satratoxins. From what I

understand, most are not water soluble, but some of the more toxic

ones ARE.

So, a water-based solvent would not dissolve the oil-soluble ones

directly.. but it would dissolve the water soluble ones.. and if the

water was not removed properly, when that water dries up, the solvent

extraction would have the effect of producing a concentrated mycotoxin

powder of those water soluble stachy toxins.. a very bioactive form of

the poison..

Thats one of the reasons why some experts often suggest using some

kind of semi-abrasive inert slurry, which is then immediately sucked

up by a powerful vaccumn.. to do serious stachy remediation..

Other mycotoxins are hormone-like substances, which act as endocrine

disruptors and cause infertility and other sexual issues..

Other mycotoxins are basically related to psychoactive drugs like LSD,

in that they cause all sorts of neurological effects.. like disturbing

sleep patters and causing big changes in neurotransmitter levels.. and

binding to neurotransmitter receptor sites..even when only inhaled in

microscopic doses..

There are probably literally thousands of mycotoxins.. There are

hundreds that are known to science.. those are basically just the tip

of the iceberg..the ones with the most obvious effects..

>

> I don't know if mycotoxins are water soluable or oil soluable so I

> can't answer the question of whether or not the sauna would help mold

> victims. I also don't know how re-exposure from inside the body would

> affect people or how those combinations of interactions would occur.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear quackadillian,

Can you direct me to the source(s) of your information on the

soluability of mycotoxins? The difference between soluability in

water, solvent or alcohol is important. For example, Bin is a common

encapsulant that is available as a water-, solvent- or alcohol-based

formulations. I'd hate to get the wrong one and make the mycotoxins

part of the sealant rather than sealing it.

> Thats one of the reasons why some experts often suggest using some

> kind of semi-abrasive inert slurry, which is then immediately

sucked

> up by a powerful vaccumn.. to do serious stachy remediation..

Can you be more specific about this process? It has characteristics

of both cryo-blasting and Modec. Also, I'm not familiar with

different levels of stachy remedaition. Do you have sources on what

they are and when they should be used? I have an S520 standards

meeting in two weeks and would like to be aware of this.

> Other mycotoxins are hormone-like substances, which act as

endocrine

> disruptors and cause infertility and other sexual issues..

The hormone emulators are usually associated with pesticides, fire

retardants and some of the persistant organic pthalates (POPS). Do

you have a source for mycotoxins? Also, the hormone distruptors have

little to do with sexual activity or function but with genetics of

the unborn, internal communication of the body, immune system, etc.

> There are probably literally thousands of mycotoxins..

Mycologists have determined that any mold can produce mycotoxins

under certain environmental conditions, specifically when encroached

by other molds. The purpose of the mycotoxin is not to poison people,

nor is it to facilated their digestion (enzymes), but to keep other

kinds of mold away from their food. Bears fight, elk head butt, birds

sing, dogs pee, people shoot guns or explode bombs (think Shock and

Awe) and mold produces mycotoxins.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Carl,

>

> There are so many mycotoxins that you can't generalize about things

> like solubility. Let me give you an example, stachybotrys produces a

> family of trichothecene mycotoxins called the satratoxins. From what I

> understand, most are not water soluble, but some of the more toxic

> ones ARE.

>

> So, a water-based solvent would not dissolve the oil-soluble ones

> directly.. but it would dissolve the water soluble ones.. and if the

> water was not removed properly, when that water dries up, the solvent

> extraction would have the effect of producing a concentrated mycotoxin

> powder of those water soluble stachy toxins.. a very bioactive form of

> the poison..

>

> Thats one of the reasons why some experts often suggest using some

> kind of semi-abrasive inert slurry, which is then immediately sucked

> up by a powerful vaccumn.. to do serious stachy remediation..

>

> Other mycotoxins are hormone-like substances, which act as endocrine

> disruptors and cause infertility and other sexual issues..

>

> Other mycotoxins are basically related to psychoactive drugs like LSD,

> in that they cause all sorts of neurological effects.. like disturbing

> sleep patters and causing big changes in neurotransmitter levels.. and

> binding to neurotransmitter receptor sites..even when only inhaled in

> microscopic doses..

>

> There are probably literally thousands of mycotoxins.. There are

> hundreds that are known to science.. those are basically just the tip

> of the iceberg..the ones with the most obvious effects..

>

>

> >

> > I don't know if mycotoxins are water soluable or oil soluable so I

> > can't answer the question of whether or not the sauna would help

> > mold victims. I also don't know how re-exposure from inside the body

> > would affect people or how those combinations of interactions would

> > occur.

> >

> > Carl Grimes

> > Healthy Habitats LLC

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Carl, No problem, I'd be glad to..

Thanks for asking on this..

On 1/10/06, Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...> wrote:

> Dear quackadillian,

>

> Can you direct me to the source(s) of your information on the

> soluability of mycotoxins? The difference between soluability in

> water, solvent or alcohol is important. For example, Bin is a common

> encapsulant that is available as a water-, solvent- or alcohol-based

> formulations. I'd hate to get the wrong one and make the mycotoxins

> part of the sealant rather than sealing it.

>

>

Yes, I read this on Medline and the reference is below.. I think I

can get a PDF of the original article from a link, which i will email

you. (found, Carl, check your email)

Appl Environ Microbiol. 1982 August; 44(2): 494–495.

Identification of " Water-Soluble " Toxins Produced by a Stachybotrys

atra Strain from Finland

Balázs Harrach,1 Martti Nummi,2 Marja-Leena Niku-Paavola,2 Chester J.

Mirocha,3 and Mátyás Palyusik1

1Veterinary Medical Research Institute, Hungarian Academy of Sciences,

H-1581 Budapest, Hungary; Biotechnical Laboratory, Technical Research

Centre of Finland, SF-02150 ESPOO 15, Finland2; and Department of

Plant Pathology, University of Minnesota, St. , Minnesota 551083

Abstract

Toxins of a Stachybotrys atra strain from Finland proved to be soluble

in a simulated gastrointestinal system. They were purified and

characterized as satratoxin H, satratoxin G, and an unknown

macrocyclic trichothecene with a molecular ion of 528.

References

* Andrássy K, Horváth I, Lakos T, Töke Z. Massenhaftes Auftreten

von Mykotoxikosen im Komitat Hajdu-Bihar. Mykosen. 1980

Mar;23(3):130–133. [PubMed]

* Harrach B, Mirocha CJ, Pathre SV, Palyusik M. Macrocyclic

trichothecene toxins produced by a strain of Stachybotrys atra from

Hungary. Appl Environ Microbiol. 1981 Jun;41(6):1428–1432. [Free Full

Text in PMC icon.Free Full text in PMC]

* Nummi N, Niku-Paavola ML. Water soluble toxins of Stachybotrys

alternans. Ann Nutr Aliment. 1977;31(4-6):761–770. [PubMed]

> > Thats one of the reasons why some experts often suggest using some

> > kind of semi-abrasive inert slurry, which is then immediately

> sucked

> > up by a powerful vacumn.. to do serious stachy remediation..

>

> Can you be more specific about this process? It has characteristics

> of both cryo-blasting and Modec.

You know, Carl, I am not a professional, so basically, I'm just

synthesizing this opinion from a number of facts that I'm aware of on

the relative success of different remediation/decontamination methods.

I have read papers on Medline and also on websites that deal with home

energy, indoor air quality and also biowarfare defense - that describe

- at least in the case of the remediation processes described..a

number of different processes that I have seen described as more often

successful than not, which distinguishes them from the other processes

that I have usually seen described as more often unsuccessful.. (Does

that make sense?)

(I realize I'm repeating myself but I'm really, really tired right now

and about to go to sleep.. so please bear with me..)

These 'successful' processes are usually (making up this concept,

sorta, here) 'slurry/abrasive' based and the equipment used to

undertake them always seems to have two hoses coming out of a truck..

Now, just to give you some context.. I live in an urban neighborhood

of older multistory, mostly wood apartment buildings where mold

remediation trucks are not an uncommon site.. Its been a while since

the last time I saw one of these trucks, but there was one working a

few doors up the street from us around a year ago. From what I could

see the men were 'sandblasting' and I *think* they were also

vaccumming with the same device.. I do remember the two tubes..

I have heard that some remediation methods use glass beads, some use

sand, some use some kind of foamy stuff.. some use dry ice.. The point

is that they prevent the mold debris from being just blown away by

immobilizing it in some kind of slurry or similar.. and then suck it

up. With sand and glass beads, the blasting material might be reused..

which seems to me to perhaps be asking for trouble.. but with dry ice,

it sublimates into carbon dioxide and is absorbed into the air..(after

passing through the vaccum system and being filtered to remove as much

myco-gunk as possible.. away from the property being remediated..

Carl, I *have* saved a lot of articles on remediation, and this makes

sense to me.. but I don;t have the specifics right now.. But now that

I know that this is important, I will get them.

I'm not an expert.. you are...

Also, I'm not familiar with

> different levels of stachy remedaition.

I was under the impression that there are different 'levels' at which

different cleanup methods are either required (in some jurisdictions)

or strongly encouraged.. Even here in Calif. in my conversations with

local officials it seems like they have internal guidelines which

maybe are not published that are based on square footage of visible

mold..

I ran into this when talking with my local Health Dept people.. for

example, it seems like after a building exceeded 10 square feet of

visible mold they might be able to do more.. (no, the parts of my

building that I can see, all added up together come close, but they

don't reach that - but then, that was before the flooding. Now, its

probably much worse, I can feel it. But I am now so reactive that I

can't go down into the basement like I was a few months ago to look at

the walls to estimate size.. even with a mask..it would make me sick

for at least three or four days.. I can tell its much worse. Which is

what I told them would happen if they let it go till the rainy season,

which of course they did.)

Do you have sources on what

> they are and when they should be used? I have an S520 standards

> meeting in two weeks and would like to be aware of this.

>

No, I am just going from the situation I described above (which came

up when i was begging the health dept. people to tell me how we might

be able to force our landlord to remediate - and - use professionals..

and my memory of papers ive seen - I think on Medline - on the

relative success of various remediation methods.. Ive also read a fair

amount about biowarfare decontamination techniques.. really, the same

thing.. I could probably find this stuff for you if you want me to,

though.. *if its important and would help you*

>

> > Other mycotoxins are hormone-like substances, which act as

> endocrine

> > disruptors and cause infertility and other sexual issues..

>

I was specifically thinking of zearalenone and perhaps some

others..again, let me see if i can find good refs.. but I am pretty

sure that its been shown many times over that zearalenone has a host

of different reproductive effects in animals and there is no reason to

believe that we are any different.. In fact, I think it has been

proven that zearalenone causes ovarian cysts, and accellerates the

onset of puberty in people chronically exposed to it.. But I am not

sure.. and it will take me some time to find them.. Can it wait till

tomorrow?

> The hormone emulators are usually associated with pesticides, fire

> retardants and some of the persistant organic pthalates (POPS). Do

> you have a source for mycotoxins?

Zearalenone, and quite possibly others.. Plus, the ergot alkaloids in

aspergillus are known to do terrible things to pregnant animals and

human women, like cause miscarriages, among other things.. (do a

search for " St 's Fire " )

Ref on the ergot alkaloids in aspergillus below-

Ergot and its history is a whole book.. or actually several books.. It

was endemic during the Middle Ages when it caused mass hysteria and

(many say) witch burnings.. Several popular books have been written,

I'm pretty sure, exploring its rich history..

And that was before the events of the last half century.. (read A.

Hoffmann 'My Problem Child'):

------

Appl Environ Microbiol. 2005 Jun;71(6):3106-11.

Abundant respirable ergot alkaloids from the common airborne

fungus Aspergillus fumigatus.

Panaccione DG, Coyle CM.

Division of Plant & Soil Sciences, Genetics & Developmental

Biology Program, 401 Hall, West Virginia University,

town, West Virginia 26506-6058, USA. danpan@...

Ergot alkaloids are mycotoxins that interact with several

monoamine receptors, negatively affecting cardiovascular, nervous,

reproductive, and immune systems of exposed humans and animals.

Aspergillus fumigatus, a common airborne fungus and opportunistic

human pathogen, can produce ergot alkaloids in broth culture. The

objectives of this study were to determine if A. fumigatus accumulates

ergot alkaloids in a respirable form in or on its conidia, to quantify

ergot alkaloids associated with conidia produced on several different

substrates, and to measure relevant physical properties of the

conidia. We found at least four ergot alkaloids, fumigaclavine C,

festuclavine, fumigaclavine A, and fumigaclavine B (in order of

abundance), associated with conidia of A. fumigatus. Under

environmentally relevant conditions, the total mass of ergot alkaloids

often constituted >1% of the mass of the conidium. Ergot alkaloids

were extracted from conidia produced on all media tested, and the

greatest quantities were observed when the fungus was cultured on

latex paint or cultured maize seedlings. The values for physical

properties of conidia likely to affect their respirability (i.e.,

diameter, mass, and specific gravity) were significantly lower for A.

fumigatus than for Aspergillus nidulans, Aspergillus niger, and

Stachybotrys chartarum. The demonstration of relatively high

concentrations of ergot alkaloids associated with conidia of A.

fumigatus presents opportunities for investigations of potential

contributions of the toxins to adverse health effects associated with

the fungus and to aspects of the biology of the fungus that contribute

to its success.

Also, the hormone distruptors have

> little to do with sexual activity or function but with genetics of

> the unborn, internal communication of the body, immune system, etc.

>

See above...

>

> > There are probably literally thousands of mycotoxins..

>

> Mycologists have determined that any mold can produce mycotoxins

> under certain environmental conditions, specifically when encroached

> by other molds. The purpose of the mycotoxin is not to poison people,

> nor is it to facilated their digestion (enzymes), but to keep other

> kinds of mold away from their food. Bears fight, elk head butt, birds

> sing, dogs pee, people shoot guns or explode bombs (think Shock and

> Awe) and mold produces mycotoxins.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

Let me use this analogy.. whenever you have, say, 10,000 chemicals in

bottles in a room, and then something breaks all of the bottles..

*some* of them are going to cause problems for the fragile human

ecosystem inside a home.. *many* of the chemicals produced by molds

are biologically active..

Even if they are not 'toxins' it is not reasonable to say that they are 'safe'.

When I was a little kid I saw a anti-drug movie in health class that

had a party scene in which a bunch of teenagers collected

miscellaneous pills from their parents medicine cabinets and dumped

them all in a big glass.. then, each of the teenagers grabbed a

handful, at random, and ate them, then awaited the results.. (Not

something that any of the stoners I grew up with would ever done..

but, very effective in scaring impressionable kids.. because who would

take drugs at random.. )

Thats basically what I'm saying.. There is no way that exposing

yourself to a 'witches brew' like the combination of biologically

active substances molds often produce is smart. The effects vary.. but

the chances of problems multiply exponentially with the concentration

of molds and many other variables.. so many that 100 of the best

pharmacology experts in the world armed with supercomputers might find

this an almost unsolvable problem.

> > There are so many mycotoxins that you can't generalize about things

> > like solubility. Let me give you an example, stachybotrys produces a

> > family of trichothecene mycotoxins called the satratoxins. From what I

> > understand, most are not water soluble, but some of the more toxic

> > ones ARE.

> >

> > So, a water-based solvent would not dissolve the oil-soluble ones

> > directly.. but it would dissolve the water soluble ones.. and if the

> > water was not removed properly, when that water dries up, the solvent

> > extraction would have the effect of producing a concentrated mycotoxin

> > powder of those water soluble stachy toxins.. a very bioactive form of

> > the poison..

> >

> > Thats one of the reasons why some experts often suggest using some

> > kind of semi-abrasive inert slurry, which is then immediately sucked

> > up by a powerful vaccumn.. to do serious stachy remediation..

> >

> > Other mycotoxins are hormone-like substances, which act as endocrine

> > disruptors and cause infertility and other sexual issues..

> >

> > Other mycotoxins are basically related to psychoactive drugs like LSD,

> > in that they cause all sorts of neurological effects.. like disturbing

> > sleep patters and causing big changes in neurotransmitter levels.. and

> > binding to neurotransmitter receptor sites..even when only inhaled in

> > microscopic doses..

> >

> > There are probably literally thousands of mycotoxins.. There are

> > hundreds that are known to science.. those are basically just the tip

> > of the iceberg..the ones with the most obvious effects..

> >

> >

> > >

> > > I don't know if mycotoxins are water soluable or oil soluable so I

> > > can't answer the question of whether or not the sauna would help

> > > mold victims. I also don't know how re-exposure from inside the body

> > > would affect people or how those combinations of interactions would

> > > occur.

> > >

> > > Carl Grimes

> > > Healthy Habitats LLC

> > >

> > >

>

Neither do I, but some toxins do get stored in adipose tissue.. so the

idea of them suddenly going back into the bloodstream or being

excreted through the skin sounds like it is possible to me..

But I don't know any more than many of you and much less than some..

I'm just trying to express the (to some unsettling, but to me,

somewhat .. well..) concept that the more we know, the more we realize

we don't know..

Thise people who say we do know things like this I don't trust them,

because its clear to me that they are either lying or dangerously

stupid..