Re: professional MD's/pressure/multi-level

January 7, 2006

my doctor has me started on probiotics and prebiotics through the Shaklee

company. Has anyone heard of them?

Janet

January 7, 2006

jschaller <jschaller@...> wrote:

There are a few good products sold by multi-level marketing but I have never

known a health professional to do it...

*****

Many do it, but it varies by specialty. I published in a number of leading

medical newspapers that physicians should be allowed to offer nutrients and

other products for some profit. It is the only way most physicians will spend

any time learning some new options besides drugs and surgery, is if it will pay

the rent and the 150,000 malpractice bill....

Bob wrote: My doctor sells vitamins and supplements but they are not sold on a

multi-level system. This is what I object to.

Re: [] Dr Croft/Iris multi-level criticism

jschaller <jschaller@...> wrote: I have no investment in any of

these products, but would not disparage any one who wanted to make a living off

a good product.

It is too easy when ill to get into a critical mode of speaking ill of people

for trying to make a living

I did not make that remark because I felt ill. Where did you get that

thought. I believe there is a lot of difference in people who are in a position

of making medical suggestions to buy a product which his daughter sells that

your next door neighbor trying to sell you something. That is why I say it is

not professional. If you disagree that is your opinion.

There are a few good products sold by multi-level marketing but I have never

known a health professional to do it but there is always a first. Please

remember that I said that I hope Dr Kroft is for real for Iris's sake. I just

brought up what I feel is a fact that it is unprofessional for in a health care

position and his duaghter is assisting him, to sign them up for Mannatech. In

fact, I believe him only being a PhD and doing so might even be against the law.

Why did you think I was ill when I made the comment? I didn't think it was

worded in a hateful way.

Bob

---------------------------------

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January 7, 2006

My local doctor has supplements and nutrients available at the office. I found

that to be pretty off-putting at first. But then, I realized that the practice

includes others who are not necesarily MD's themselves, and for for whom this is

a major focus of their own practices. And it didn't take long before I realized

that, even as a skeptic about most of that stuff (years of bank account-draining

hype and disappointments) this doc has an opportunity to talk to people all day,

every day about what are good quality brands, what is working for people, and

what is not. It usually takes everything I've got energy-wise just to show up

for an appointment, so I'm not gonna dash out afterwards and buy this 'n that.

It's really nice to be able to get what I need right there, and know that

they're paying attention to how well it's working. Nobody's going to push

anything at me just for the bucks.

Try telling a pharmacist or marketer you think a supplement they sell is

worthless or made you feel rotten. How many times has a pharmacy or health food

store or internet retailer ever asked your opinion of a product or listened if

you shared one? But on the single occasion where I spotted a real baddie from

the doc's office, it was instantly addressed so others wouldn't also have a

problem. That was very, very cool. I had a bad experience, but I felt like at

least someone else might benefit from it by being able to avoid the same

problem. We learned something, and used it to advantage. And that's _exactly_

the kind of teamwork I want and need where my healthcare is concerned.

And quite aside from offsetting insurance costs, I don't think a practicing

physician is going to be stupid enough to risk their own financial solvency by

permitting harmful or worthless products to be sold across their own

appointments desk, you know? The risks to the doctor could outweigh the benefits

in a big hurry, so we're naturally playing on the same team. OTOH, look at

retailers. GNC has been sued more times that I can track because of various

products they've sold. I won't even go into their stores because I know I can't

trust them. They're going to hype hundreds of items just to move product. So

instead of being creeped out by having things available at the doc's office, I

now see it as a definite benefit.

Not so sure I like the whole MLM thing (I don't think my doc does any of

that), but as a general proposition, I like the idea of having the doctor know

very specifically what I'm getting, where it came from, and whether it's doing

the intended job. If she says to me (and she has), " We've got this new product

here, I'm using it myself, and I'm getting excellent feedback so far from the

other 6 patients trying it. I think it might benefit you, so you can try it out

if you want to. " Hey - that's fine. I don't feel pressured, and I feel like

I've just gotten better information in 10 seconds than a week's worth of

infomercials and internet hype would have delivered. I can still go look at the

core research if I want to. I can walk away and check back later to see if the

product is continuing to deliver results. I can say no thanks. Or I can buy it,

try it, and become part of the feedback loop. The producers and sellers of the

product can say whatever they want, but if the stuff

doesn't hold up on our end, it's not going to last long. That's a pretty

unique kind of practice there, where I feel much less like a consumer on the

defensive and much more like a participant in a community that has the same

goals and concerns as me. I'm sure some greed-ridden idiot somewhere will manage

to corrupt this whole idea sooner or later. People do, nature of the beast and

all. But as a working proposition, it's a good one and highly functional.

Serena

There is no such thing as an anomaly. Recheck your original premise.

...Ayn Rand,

paraphrased

---------------------------------

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January 7, 2006

I agree with you, but the key is that you are getting the

recommendations from an MD. I think that an MD is going to be able

to look at your whole health history, order blood tests. etc to

determine if you truly need a product and also if there is anything

in your history to indicate a product could cause you harm. I see

no problem with this, in fact it makes a lot of sense, especially

since the MDs also are the ones prescribing medicine as well.

Where I was concerned was that people were refering to a Dr. in

posts, maybe not knowing what the person's credential are. I also

know that Dr does not always equal MD, all people may not. To me, it

just seems a little " out of one's field " for a pathologist to be

giving nutritional advice, just like it isn't the place of allergist

to speak about toxicology.

>

> My local doctor has supplements and nutrients available at the

office. I found that to be pretty off-putting at first. But then, I

realized that the practice includes others who are not necesarily

MD's themselves, and for for whom this is a major focus of their own

practices. And it didn't take long before I realized that, even as a

skeptic about most of that stuff (years of bank account-draining

hype and disappointments) this doc has an opportunity to talk to

people all day, every day about what are good quality brands, what

is working for people, and what is not. It usually takes everything

I've got energy-wise just to show up for an appointment, so I'm not

gonna dash out afterwards and buy this 'n that. It's really nice to

be able to get what I need right there, and know that they're paying

attention to how well it's working. Nobody's going to push anything

at me just for the bucks.

>

> Try telling a pharmacist or marketer you think a supplement they

sell is worthless or made you feel rotten. How many times has a

pharmacy or health food store or internet retailer ever asked your

opinion of a product or listened if you shared one? But on the

single occasion where I spotted a real baddie from the doc's office,

it was instantly addressed so others wouldn't also have a problem.

That was very, very cool. I had a bad experience, but I felt like at

least someone else might benefit from it by being able to avoid the

same problem. We learned something, and used it to advantage. And

that's _exactly_ the kind of teamwork I want and need where my

healthcare is concerned.

>

> And quite aside from offsetting insurance costs, I don't think a

practicing physician is going to be stupid enough to risk their own

financial solvency by permitting harmful or worthless products to be

sold across their own appointments desk, you know? The risks to the

doctor could outweigh the benefits in a big hurry, so we're

naturally playing on the same team. OTOH, look at retailers. GNC has

been sued more times that I can track because of various products

they've sold. I won't even go into their stores because I know I

can't trust them. They're going to hype hundreds of items just to

move product. So instead of being creeped out by having things

available at the doc's office, I now see it as a definite benefit.

>

> Not so sure I like the whole MLM thing (I don't think my doc

does any of that), but as a general proposition, I like the idea of

having the doctor know very specifically what I'm getting, where it

came from, and whether it's doing the intended job. If she says to

me (and she has), " We've got this new product here, I'm using it

myself, and I'm getting excellent feedback so far from the other 6

patients trying it. I think it might benefit you, so you can try it

out if you want to. " Hey - that's fine. I don't feel pressured, and

I feel like I've just gotten better information in 10 seconds than a

week's worth of infomercials and internet hype would have delivered.

I can still go look at the core research if I want to. I can walk

away and check back later to see if the product is continuing to

deliver results. I can say no thanks. Or I can buy it, try it, and

become part of the feedback loop. The producers and sellers of the

product can say whatever they want, but if the stuff

> doesn't hold up on our end, it's not going to last long. That's

a pretty unique kind of practice there, where I feel much less like

a consumer on the defensive and much more like a participant in a

community that has the same goals and concerns as me. I'm sure some

greed-ridden idiot somewhere will manage to corrupt this whole idea

sooner or later. People do, nature of the beast and all. But as a

working proposition, it's a good one and highly functional.

>

> Serena

>

> There is no such thing as an anomaly. Recheck your original

premise.

> ...

Ayn Rand, paraphrased

>

> ---------------------------------

> Photos

> Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in

your hands ASAP.

>

January 7, 2006

i have to jump in and disagree weith a part of your response.

jsut because theyhave the MD does not mean that they understand illnesses.

Look at all the people on here craving for doctords who canhelp them.

MD means they have jumped thru the allopath hoops required by the medical

good ole boys network.

they know their area of expertise that's it.

There was a isting of what each professional would view fibro for example

as

Rhematologist (sp) would see it as arthritis

Psychiatriats psychological meaning meds are required to adjust their

perception

etc...

It's a long and trying time to find a dr who accepts let along can treat

illnesses that are not in the " so called acceptable recognized illnesses " .

It is really a GRAVE overestimation that a MD knows *products*, be it

alternative or prescription. I have dated enough pharmacits to know that

Md's are familiar with the Rx's for thier are of expertise, if not then

they rely on the PDR. Which in itself is nothing more than a book oersay

of drug inserts in one convenient place. My best friend is a bo-gyn and

beleive me he has a vast knowkledge of the rx's for female maladies...but,

forget it when I used to call him asking for something out side that

arena.

I also agree with Bob just because they have the initials it is not an

automatic cry for respect. Thats something that this hard core Nu Yawker

confers on someone when they earn that respect. There is only one doctor

that is on this group that I would confer the title/respect as he truly

deserves it and that is Dr. Lipsey.

I have had the pleasureof meeting him and he is just as nice, sincere in

person as online. One can only hope that others with titles, be it MD,

PhD, DC RPh etc., can emulate him! Prior to meeting this man any

correspondence I had with him it was ALWAYS DR.!

Just my usual .02

On Sat, 7 Jan 2006, kdsl92003 wrote:

> Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 22:58:43 -0000

> From: kdsl92003 <kdsl92003@...>

> Reply-

>

> Subject: [] Re: " professional " MD's/pressure/multi-level

>

> I agree with you, but the key is that you are getting the

> recommendations from an MD. I think that an MD is going to be able

> to look at your whole health history, order blood tests. etc to

> determine if you truly need a product and also if there is anything

> in your history to indicate a product could cause you harm. I see

> no problem with this, in fact it makes a lot of sense, especially

> since the MDs also are the ones prescribing medicine as well.

>

> Where I was concerned was that people were refering to a Dr. in

> posts, maybe not knowing what the person's credential are. I also

> know that Dr does not always equal MD, all people may not. To me, it

> just seems a little " out of one's field " for a pathologist to be

> giving nutritional advice, just like it isn't the place of allergist

> to speak about toxicology.

>

>>

>> My local doctor has supplements and nutrients available at the

> office. I found that to be pretty off-putting at first. But then, I

> realized that the practice includes others who are not necesarily

> MD's themselves, and for for whom this is a major focus of their own

> practices. And it didn't take long before I realized that, even as a

> skeptic about most of that stuff (years of bank account-draining

> hype and disappointments) this doc has an opportunity to talk to

> people all day, every day about what are good quality brands, what

> is working for people, and what is not. It usually takes everything

> I've got energy-wise just to show up for an appointment, so I'm not

> gonna dash out afterwards and buy this 'n that. It's really nice to

> be able to get what I need right there, and know that they're paying

> attention to how well it's working. Nobody's going to push anything

> at me just for the bucks.

>>

>> Try telling a pharmacist or marketer you think a supplement they

> sell is worthless or made you feel rotten. How many times has a

> pharmacy or health food store or internet retailer ever asked your

> opinion of a product or listened if you shared one? But on the

> single occasion where I spotted a real baddie from the doc's office,

> it was instantly addressed so others wouldn't also have a problem.

> That was very, very cool. I had a bad experience, but I felt like at

> least someone else might benefit from it by being able to avoid the

> same problem. We learned something, and used it to advantage. And

> that's _exactly_ the kind of teamwork I want and need where my

> healthcare is concerned.

>>

>> And quite aside from offsetting insurance costs, I don't think a

> practicing physician is going to be stupid enough to risk their own

> financial solvency by permitting harmful or worthless products to be

> sold across their own appointments desk, you know? The risks to the

> doctor could outweigh the benefits in a big hurry, so we're

> naturally playing on the same team. OTOH, look at retailers. GNC has

> been sued more times that I can track because of various products

> they've sold. I won't even go into their stores because I know I

> can't trust them. They're going to hype hundreds of items just to

> move product. So instead of being creeped out by having things

> available at the doc's office, I now see it as a definite benefit.

>>

>> Not so sure I like the whole MLM thing (I don't think my doc

> does any of that), but as a general proposition, I like the idea of

> having the doctor know very specifically what I'm getting, where it

> came from, and whether it's doing the intended job. If she says to

> me (and she has), " We've got this new product here, I'm using it

> myself, and I'm getting excellent feedback so far from the other 6

> patients trying it. I think it might benefit you, so you can try it

> out if you want to. " Hey - that's fine. I don't feel pressured, and

> I feel like I've just gotten better information in 10 seconds than a

> week's worth of infomercials and internet hype would have delivered.

> I can still go look at the core research if I want to. I can walk

> away and check back later to see if the product is continuing to

> deliver results. I can say no thanks. Or I can buy it, try it, and

> become part of the feedback loop. The producers and sellers of the

> product can say whatever they want, but if the stuff

>> doesn't hold up on our end, it's not going to last long. That's

> a pretty unique kind of practice there, where I feel much less like

> a consumer on the defensive and much more like a participant in a

> community that has the same goals and concerns as me. I'm sure some

> greed-ridden idiot somewhere will manage to corrupt this whole idea

> sooner or later. People do, nature of the beast and all. But as a

> working proposition, it's a good one and highly functional.

>>

>> Serena

>>

>> There is no such thing as an anomaly. Recheck your original

> premise.

>> ...

> Ayn Rand, paraphrased

>>

>> ---------------------------------

>> Photos

>> Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in

> your hands ASAP.

>>

January 8, 2006

Yes, I see your point. Dr. Croft might be in a kind of unique position with

this, because he's been all over mycotoxins for a really long time and gets a

lot of respect in the field. I'm not too concerned that he began with

veterinary science. CSM, charcoal, and clay are actually all treatments that are

used in livestock feed for various mycotoxins and their effects on various

species of livestock. Control of mycotoxins is something that agriculture has

been trying to deal with a lot longer than medical science has bothered with it.

(I know Shoemaker wrote that he stumbled into CSM as a treatment for humans, but

I've always wondered how surprised he must have been when he realized he'd just

bumped right into some stuff that farmers already knew about.) So sure, I'd

want my medical doctors to be aware of whatever else I was taking. They're the

human experts. But I've got a list of them who were so intensely clueless, I'd

trade them all in on a half hour with Croft any day of the

week. As long as he's not practicing medicine on humans without a license or

suggesting we abandon our own doctors for him, then I'd think of him as a great

ally to have on my healthcare team.

kdsl92003 <kdsl92003@...> wrote: I agree with you, but the key is that

you are getting the