Re: Re: L Ron Hubbard's Purification program

[Guest guest]

Bob,

*TAKING THAT MUCH NIACIN CAN DESTROY YOUR LIVER...*

[Guest guest]

Yes, when I was less ill, I did all sorts of physical things. It's a real

challenge now, because it's so easy to do too much, and then takes just about

forever to recover any strength. This situation makes it just about impossible

to recover any stamina at all. I've lost more and more, every time I've gotten

knocked down for a while. Maintaining is pretty easy when you can stay active.

Recovering is not.

What I've found so far is that any time I hyperextend anything at all, the

inflammation response is just about overwhelming - lasts for days and days and

is a lot more painful than it should be, and so I never really achieve any

improvement. About all I have been able to to is maintain flexibility, since

stretching ligaments and tendons in an already-established range of motion

doesn't seem to cause anything unusual to happen. And I've found I can still

develop muscle memory, as long as I stay within my endurance limits - lots of

single reps, spaced out, with somebody reminding me what the motions are. That

is, my brain won't remember a complex new set of motions, but my body will,

after about 100 reps. Like driving a car - physically, I can drive just fine.

The problem is more about remembering where I'm going and paying attention to

the road. Whatever is messed up in my brain about remembering doesn't seem to

translate to muscle memory problems, anyway.

I can still do isometric work within limits, but not aerobic work. I haven't

tried strength training at all, although I'd really like to, because I'm losing

muscle strength at a rate that really alarms me at times. I'm not sure if it can

be done. I kind of think that perhaps it could, if I went very, very slowly with

it and didn't really push it. I have a good coach, and I intend to discuss this

with him, probably tomorrow. He may have some ideas I haven't really considered

yet. Sometimes, very obese people have to work like this, so maybe it could work

for me.

Bob <blue74730@...> wrote:

--- In , SERENA EDWARDS <pushcrash@y...>

wrote:

> Question - how the heck would you expect get away with doing the

runs with CFS?

Before I read his full program, I use to have the same thought. I think

there could be a posssibly that what he does before the program and

before getting mold, I use to play golf each week and job. Serena, not

all people with CFS are in bed all day yet some are also bed bound. I

could have done this program 3-4 years ago. the amount of running and

sauna can be cut down to start with, it would just take longer. The

mold has actually bothered my energy levels more than the CFS did. That

is why it should not be called " Fatigue " for one. Really CFS could also

be Lyme and Gulf War Illness is sometimes referred to as CFS. I have

had more neurological problems.

BTW, when I first discovered it was mold making me ill, I had been

talking with and I told him it smelled like burnt fireworks but I

cannot smell that odor for mold anymore. It is more of an acrid odor.

Has other people had a change in how mold smells to them?

Bob

FAIR USE NOTICE:

[Guest guest]

Despite the fact that Ron Hubbard was a very bright guy with some good ideas

about this and that, and despite seeing some very good results from his detox, I

would never consider taking his statistics literally. One of his finest talents

was marketing. There was a time when if you did nothing more than take a quick

course or buy a book, they had you sign a receipt that said you were a

Scientologist. You can just imagine how many Scientologists there were, all of a

sudden! I had a brother-in-law who had been in the Sea Org. Not everything

there was all that rosy. Those guys slept 2 hours a night for years on end. What

I did see, was a number of people who were otherwise major screw-ups in life,

get their act together very quickly. I just remembered a renter I had who had

been through that Drug Rundown and a bunch of other stuff. He was clean, but he

was still a major jerk, so there was at least one failure. IIRC, they made him

go back and repeat everything since he didn't turn out

right the first time. But on the whole, I do respect the results I saw.

Serena

There is no such thing as an anomaly. Recheck your original premise.

...Ayn Rand,

paraphrased

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Bob, I'm not even considering doing that program at this point. I'm low on ADH

and have enough problems with the water content in my body and the sweats. I'm a

travelling one-woman sauna as it is. (No, I don't see that as my body trying to

intelligently dump toxins through my skin. It's the endocrine disruption caused

by the toxins themselves. No temperature control, no diuretic control.)

I'm perfectly willing to honestly state what I saw with that program. But

until or unless one of my docs want to go that way and think it's a benefit, I

won't be doing it myself. I'm looking at some other things, though, and will

report any results, good or bad, if you like.

Bob <blue74730@...> wrote:

--- In , " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@h...>

wrote:

>

> Bob,

> One man had chlordane poisoning and couldn't run for 30 minutes. He

> could only walk 4 minutes. He was incredibly ill when he entered and

> got worse as the treatment progressed - because it forces the stored

> toxins back into the bloodstream for elimination through sweat, urine

> and bowel, most sweat. While in the bloodstream you are being exposed

> just as you were originally, except this time it's all at once! One

> woman who had a lifelong drug addiction experienced them as a

> flashback all at the one time. The chlordane victim started a week

> after I did and was outrunning me by the time I left.

Serena, maybe this is how people with CFS could do his program. It

Takes a lot more than jsut running and saunaing though. I first thought

when I read about it last year that I could do it by myself but I

realize the vitamins and minerals needed in the exact ratio and

increased at the program progresses that I could never find the right

ratio of vitamins and minerals.

If anyone took the time to read the link which Carl supplied, they know

that the church is doing the purification program completely outside of

any church. I can see from what I read about Hubbard's knowledge of

vitamins and minerals that he was a genius in that area and that is the

only area which concerns me.

Thanks Carl for having the guts so say you went through this program.

BTW, did you ever get to 5,000MG's of niacin? If you did, did it

destroy your liver?

Bob

FAIR USE NOTICE:

[Guest guest]

The program did not advise above 5,000 and warned against it.

However, I started at their recommended 200 - which was a strong

flush at that time - and gradually increased to 7,000 by the time I

was done. I later did more sork on my own and pushed it to 11,000

which was pretty intense! I wouldn't recommend any of this without

appropriate supervision.

Also, they claimed that at their intense level, there was little

release for 7-10 days and that it would continue for 2-3 weeks after

it was stopped. So doing a little each week will take much, much

longer and some have benefited. Again, as I always remind, everything

has its pluses and its minuses. Be aware of them so you can make an

informed decision. That is much more successful and less stressful

than later suing someone.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Thanks Carl for having the guts so say you went through this program.

> BTW, did you ever get to 5,000MG's of niacin? If you did, did it

> destroy your liver?

>

> Bob

>

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> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

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>

[Guest guest]

Serena,

I'm assuming by 'ADH' you mean vasopressin (anti-diuretic hormone)

Have you tried using vasopressin or desmopressin (synthetic

vasopressin) nasal spray?

I am wondering if it would help mt short-term memory loss.. (many have

said it helps with that, in addition to helping you get a healthy

nights sleep because you don't keep having to pee..)

On 1/10/06, SERENA EDWARDS <pushcrash@...> wrote:

> Bob, I'm not even considering doing that program at this point. I'm low on ADH

and have enough problems with the water content in my body and the sweats. I'm a

travelling one-woman sauna as it is. (No, I don't see that as my body trying to

intelligently dump toxins through my skin. It's the endocrine disruption caused

by the toxins themselves. No temperature control, no diuretic control.)

>

> I'm perfectly willing to honestly state what I saw with that program. But

until or unless one of my docs want to go that way and think it's a benefit, I

won't be doing it myself. I'm looking at some other things, though, and will

report any results, good or bad, if you like.

[Guest guest]

I think I'd be concerned about this for a person who was very sick from

mycotoxicosis. Thing is, it was originally designed for other purposes not

specifically related to this illness. Can you remind me? Did you say were sick

at the time, but that was before acute mold exposure? I'm not sure I'm

recalling correctly.

" Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote: The program did not advise above

5,000 and warned against it.

Serena

There is no such thing as an anomaly. Recheck your original premise.

...Ayn Rand,

paraphrased

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Serena,

I didn't have a single, identifiable mold exposure. I grew up in

massive exposures of mold, pollen, animal dander, solvents, DDT,

heavy metals, etc on a farm.

The intent of the sauna protocol that I did was to mobilize fat

soluable substances and any others that accumulate in the oil-based

structures of the body. When mobilized they are picked up by the

blood stream and carried to the various elimination organs of the

body. The skin is the largest organ and the sweat is the primary

pathway. The body fat isn't just the beer belly kind of fat but also

the nerve sheath and the cell membranes, which is where much of the

" communication " takes place. Whatever is water soluable - blood,

water, fluids - is contained inside a non-soluable " container " such

as blood vessels, organ surfaces, cell membranes. If they were not

oil based (not soluable in water) they would wash away and be

eliminated. Our whole body would be reduced to a puddle of " water. "

I don't know if mycotoxins are water soluable or oil soluable so I

can't answer the question of whether or not the sauna would help mold

victims. I also don't know how re-exposure from inside the body would

affect people or how those combinations of interactions would occur.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> I think I'd be concerned about this for a person who was very sick

> from mycotoxicosis. Thing is, it was originally designed for other

> purposes not specifically related to this illness. Can you remind me?

> Did you say were sick at the time, but that was before acute mold

> exposure? I'm not sure I'm recalling correctly.

>

> " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote: The program did not

> advise above 5,000 and warned against it.

>

>

> Serena

>

> There is no such thing as an anomaly. Recheck your original premise.

> ...Ayn Rand, paraphrased

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

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> hands ASAP.

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/11/2006 12:44:48 AM Eastern Standard Time,

blue74730@... writes:

Shoemaker will take medicare

but he sent me papers last time I called and I couldn't fill them

out...lol

Bob

Ask his office to send you the papers over the internet, then fill them out

on your computer.

mjh

" The Basil Book "

http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/

[Guest guest]

I saw the Cal-Mag which is for the detox but I didn't see the other

things. I went to the second link and didn't see anything there. What

am I doing wrong? I would probably try this program if I could get

the vitamins and minerals in the correct ratio. I just took some Tri-

Salts with apple-cider vinegar as I read that calcium needs acidity

to be absorbed.

Bob

Bob, I guess my question is why would you want to do a drug detox program?

Maybe it is hugely successful for that, but its not a CFS program and has no

history of helping cfs patients, does it? Just seems to me the money would be so

much better spent with someone that actually knew something about cfs. Just

because its the best drug/addiction detox program doesn't mean it would do a

thing for other conditions. I think you need to target your goal. What are you

trying to detox? If its drugs go to them and do it. If its mold, go to Richie

Shoemaker, if it is metals, do the autism program guidelines like many of us are

doing and seeing some results with. But you can't do a program that cures aids

or parkinsons or something else and expect it to cure 'cfs', no matter how

successful it might be (for what its designed for). If I had that kind of money

to put into something, I'd be seeing Cheney or Enlander, or or somebody

with some knowledge and history of our illness. Course what you do of course is

your own business, but you did ask our opinions on the list, so dont' be upset

if you get them, LOL. Personally I would not want to 'donate to their cause'

because its not my beleif system, and I'm sure their church and their medical

program go hand in hand, the one would not exist w/o the other so they are not

different entities at the roots.

Marcia

[Guest guest]

Worked great for a friend of mine with mold illness. Everyone is different. LOni

SERENA EDWARDS <pushcrash@...> wrote: I think I'd be concerned about this

for a person who was very sick from mycotoxicosis. Thing is, it was originally

designed for other purposes not specifically related to this illness. Can you

remind me? Did you say were sick at the time, but that was before acute mold

exposure? I'm not sure I'm recalling correctly.

" Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote: The program did not advise above

5,000 and warned against it.

Serena

There is no such thing as an anomaly. Recheck your original premise.

...Ayn Rand,

paraphrased

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

No it doesn't make me mad. IF you read the book, you would know that

stuff for operations, Ilived close to White Sands, NM from '52-'57

during testing, yes I did take LSD, pot, I became ill in aug and

being single that summer. I lived at the pool and I believe Hubbard

when he says that sunshine gives off a form of radiation. If we did

not have so many toxins, drugs and radation in our tissues, our

immune system would have killed any pathogen. Did you know that all

drugs, alcohol and such deplete vitamins and minerals, particulary B

one? I was drinking heavily before becoming ill, I was in the sun all

of the time and I had gas from dentist work just before becoming ill.

I am beginning to believe that detoxing all of the drugs, toxins and

radiation out, plus get on his vitamin/mineral plan will cause my

body to kill lyme or whatever.

Okay, what do you think about what I just said?

it still seems like a long shot to me that this program will 'target' detoxing

the right thing for you, because we dont' know what that 'thing' is essentially.

Its a crapshoot at best. Even completely discounting the assn with his church

etc. Its not been proven that doing this type of detoxing is going to cure or

help cfs has it? I just don't want to see you waste money and be disappointed.

Marcia

[Guest guest]

I know it hasn't been shown to cure CFS but who do you know who has

tried it. It detoxes everything. did you see the post where Tom

Cruise took the program to NYC and detoxed the fireman and they are

well now?

*** I did see part of that. But those firemen were healthy before that exposure,

didn't have long term health issues....

People from Chernobyl were sent to him for detoxification.

Marica, I don't know that I will do it. If I could find someplace

that sold vitamins/minerals in his protocol, in exactly the right

ratio, I might try it by myself.

That might be a cheaper way to go if you can.

Marcia, I am not sure you read something I posted about his protocol,

didn't I post that his program worked for my son's drug addiction

after he had been a addict for five years? that was why I looked into

it last year to see what good it might do for me. May I say though

that neither my ex or I became members of the church nor were we ever

asked to, It was like a rehab center. I would drop him off and pick

him up later. How can I not believe in the program? Now whether it

has any relevancy for CFS, who knows

Yes, I did read about your son, but that was kinda 'my point' was do we know it

can help at all with cfs?

but aren't we always trying to

detox? Wasn't that Jim's theory when he sold us the FIR's? I believe

in it then.

Yes, AND remember how much sicker I got on that program and from the FIR and now

knowing how low my glutathione was, it probably was no surprise. I also got

better after doing higher doses of vite D, that helped bring my pain back to

baseline after it got so much worse from the FIR>

also, you have no idea of how hard it is for me with the

mold to keep going. If it was not for my faith... I am much sicker

than I have ever been in my 30 years. I need to get out of here but

nowhere to go. So maybe I am also thinking that maybe his program

would detox this mold.

that part is true but I think its the HOUSE that needs the detox more than you,

LOL. You just seemed doomed to feel worse as long as you stay in that house,

are you still thinking of renting it out?

Shoemaker says that cholestryamine will and I

will get some. there is an great environmental Dr in Dallas, william

Rea, but he wants his money up front. Shoemaker will take medicare

but he sent me papers last time I called and I couldn't fill them

out...lol

I did try cholestyramine from my regular Dr, it was at 1/2 the doses Shoe uses,

it was the regular dose for hi cholesterol which is why my Dr humored me and

wrote the script. It didn't do anything for me one way or another tho, good or

bad.

Thanks for being open-minded and just looking at the detox program

and nothing else. the bible says that God will use evil people to do

good things. You ever know a church to turn down a huge donation

because it came from the mafia...haha!

Well, I'm a believer too, but not gonna touch this question with a 10' pole and

I'm sure we'd have 'off topic' complaints we coudln't argue with either!

Marcia

[Guest guest]

It makes sense that the Scientologists might try to recruit for

Scientology within the mold victim community as one of their main

causes for a long time has been a campaign to spread the idea that

medication should not be used to treat ADD/ADHD.

Does the connection from that crusade to a potential future or present

one within the growing mold victims groups seem obvious?

To me it does.. Just as they probably see ADDers as future 'customers'

of Scientology (or whatever they call the low level uninitiated

followers) - they probably see mold victims..

They are both sufferers who might be more willing than most to pay

huge amounts of money to them - Scientology - in an attempt to 'get

clear'. (see http://www.xenu.net/ for some ex-scientologists expose of

what they really are all about. Its bizarre.)

The promotion of Scientology here makes me curious..

I have always been surprised at how successful groups like them are

(and there are many, some masquerade as churches, political parties..

even nations) in recruiting the gullible..

Perhaps its a symptom of the spiritual implosion and atomisation of

our (global) culture that even as our old institutions are

disintegrating and losing their meaning, we spend so much time trying

to prevent viable new ones from springing up. My theory is that its

because vested interests are *profoundly* afraid that their

stranglehold on parts of our society would be lost if people had more

options.. And they are probably right on that.

But you can't hold back progress.. Or knowledge, forever.

Just my $0.02.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/11/2006 3:15:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,

blue74730@... writes:

They wanted to know every little detail and I would start getting a

headache and have to stop, you know what I mean? I had to think too

much to fill out his papers so I just gave up. when I was better, I

didn't want a wife but now that I am a broken down 58 year old man, I

need one...lol Help me fill out paperwork and drive.

Bob

Bob

I know the scenario only too well. Any depth thinking is beyond me. It

took me a couple of months to fill out a medical history earlier this year. I

call it Scrambled Brain Syndrome.

About five years ago, to protect my late son, I developed a four page

document

Page 1 - medical history inclding a current issues section

Page 2 - summary and conclusions of neuropsych testing

Page 3 - medicines and diet including pharmaceuticals and supplements and

prescribing doc

Page 4 - personal identification, insurance information, doctors info,

medical case numbers

His photo was on each page. Kept a copy in the car, one in his crisis kit

and three inmy purse. First went to EMT, next to ER or whatever new doc we

were seeing. Regular docs got an update sheet of his condition and meds. If I

could not find it in one place, there were two other places.

I keep starting on mine......

mjh

" The Basil Book "

http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/

[Guest guest]

His theory was that the

body hung on to bad fats with toxins in them. If you give the body

good fats to replace the old, the body would release the bads ones

with toxins.

I bought a bunch of the vitamins and minerals today and I saunad a

little using my two FIR's heaters but didn't sweat much. I will

starting pouring with sweat by the third or fourth one.

Bob

Keep in mind that if ones gluathione is very low, mobilizing toxins you dont'

have resources to remove could make you a lot sicker. (been there).

Marcia