Ammonia

[Guest guest]

Elevated ammonia in plasma is common among people with liver problems.

Like mercury toxic people.

Ammonia mostly comes from protein in the diet.

Ammonia is turned into urea for excretion (in the urine) in a cycle

involving arginine and ornithine, two amino acids.

General supplementation with B complex, C and magnesium seems to help

somewhat. Detoxification helps a lot more.

Andy

..

..

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the input on ammonia..we're going the de-tox route.-

AndyCutler@... wrote:

Elevated ammonia in plasma is common among people with liver problems.

Like mercury toxic people.

Ammonia mostly comes from protein in the diet.

Ammonia is turned into urea for excretion (in the urine) in a cycle

involving arginine and ornithine, two amino acids.

General supplementation with B complex, C and magnesium seems to help

somewhat. Detoxification helps a lot more.

Andy

..

..

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Send my loving good wishes to your mom, I sure hope they can get to the

bottom of what is making her so sick right now. Bev is lucky to have a

daughter to help her in this time.

Since Bev has told us you have an older house there with some mold

problems, I woud use bleach and detergent, since that is recommended to kill

molds. I am also giving my own house a once-over with a disinfectant (one

like Lysol or Hexol, I don't know the brand names up there), to try and get

rid of any lingering viruses that may be left over from winter...you may

want to do that also for good measure Take care to have the rooms well

ventilated when you clean, so *you* are not exposed to too much of the

bleach fumes.

If you don't want to use all those chemicals, natural alternatives would

be vinegar and a strong sage tea solution.

Good luck with it, and please let us know how things are going. Take

care, Liz G.

[Guest guest]

Hi Jenn,

Here is a link to a web page I found that discusses both the problems of

mold and what to do about it:

http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/doh/html/epi/epimold.html

As for a cleaner, my vote would be for chlorine bleach but make sure you

wear good, non-leaking rubber gloves and I'd also recommend you get

something to cover your mouth and nose, which you could get from a

hardward store. Use two buckets, one with the cleaner in it and another

with the rinse water, with different cloths or sponges in each and

change the water frequently. Be careful yourself because I know you

have allergies, too. Good luck, honey, wish I could be there to help.

Hugs

a

NorthernRosebud@... wrote:

>...I am trying to get the house in order - the whole sh'bang, so to

> speak. Disinfected, the whole bit. What are your opinions of me using

ammonia to clean? Or would you suggest bleach?...

[Guest guest]

> An answer on the ammonia question - high urinary ornithine occurs

in some 50% of children with autism in my experience - ornithine is

part of the uea cycle for the removal of ammonia via urea. These

children are often spacey and are made worse by glutamine which

overloads the urea cycle by feeding into ornithine. I suspect the

enzyme at fault is ornithine carbamoyl-transferase, within the

mitochondria (on the inner membrane)- another piece of evidence for

mitochondrial dysfunction in these children. Perhaps some arginine

might help bypass the problem, but I haven't specifically tried this.

I tend to use homeopathic ammonia.

>

> What is homeopathic ammonia?

>

[Guest guest]

We have excessive ammonia w/ ..I read up on ornithine & arginine and

bought them but didn't know about dosing...bottle only lists " ADULT " dose

and there is a caution about not using it if liver or kidneys are

compromised...I think all of my guys systems are " compromised " . It

interests me that someone else is looking at this. is 47lbs. - Any

input?

[ ] ammonia

An answer on the ammonia question - high urinary ornithine occurs in some

50% of children with autism in my experience - ornithine is part of the uea

cycle for the removal of ammonia via urea. These children are often spacey

and are made worse by glutamine which overloads the urea cycle by feeding

into ornithine. I suspect the enzyme at fault is ornithine

carbamoyl-transferase, within the mitochondria (on the inner membrane)-

another piece of evidence for mitochondrial dysfunction in these children.

Perhaps some arginine might help bypass the problem, but I haven't

specifically tried this. I tend to use homeopathic ammonia.

[Guest guest]

Interesting about the OTC deficiency causing high ammonia. And it appears it

may well be linked to the mercury problem!

Here is a quote from Dr. Kane's book (copyright 1996) " The

Neurochemistry and Neurophysics of Autistic Spectrum Disorders " .

" The enzymes of the liver and urea cycle are impacted in many other ways such

as in ORNOTHINE TRANSCARBAMYLASE DEFICIENCY, which is the most common inborn

error of ureagenesis in humans and is noted in the literature as presenting

in adults with full blown AUTISTIC BEHAVIOR, HYPERAMMONEMIA, and stroke like

episodes within days of suppression of this enzyme. EXPOSURE TO MERCURY

DAMAGES THIS ENZYME and treatment is limited to liver transplant if the

enzyme is grossly damaged. Sodium benzoate or phenylbutyrate may be utilized

to control hyperammonemia if reduction in OTC enzyme activity is not deeply

suppressed. " (Capitals mine for emphasis) This sounds like maybe one more

clue to the puzzle!

Ruth, 's mom

Original message:

Message: 21

Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 15:20:01 -0000

From: " Robyn Cosford " <rcosford@...>

Subject: ammonia

An answer on the ammonia question - high urinary ornithine occurs in some

50% of children with autism in my experience - ornithine is part of the uea

cycle for the removal of ammonia via urea. These children are often spacey

and are made worse by glutamine which overloads the urea cycle by feeding

into ornithine. I suspect the enzyme at fault is ornithine

carbamoyl-transferase, within the mitochondria (on the inner membrane)-

another piece of evidence for mitochondrial dysfunction in these children.

Perhaps some arginine might help bypass the problem, but I haven't

specifically tried this. I tend to use homeopathic ammonia.

[Guest guest]

What are tiny doses for a 47lb-4y.o. ???

Re: [ ] ammonia

I wouldn't use ornithine if ammonia is high - urinary ornithine may

reperesent ornithine leakage into the urine or spillover from high serum

levels. Try arginine in tiny doses - use kinesiology if you can.

Dr Robyn Cosford

[ ] ammonia

>

>

> An answer on the ammonia question - high urinary ornithine occurs in

some

> 50% of children with autism in my experience - ornithine is part of the

uea

> cycle for the removal of ammonia via urea. These children are often

spacey

> and are made worse by glutamine which overloads the urea cycle by

feeding

> into ornithine. I suspect the enzyme at fault is ornithine

> carbamoyl-transferase, within the mitochondria (on the inner membrane)-

> another piece of evidence for mitochondrial dysfunction in these

children.

> Perhaps some arginine might help bypass the problem, but I haven't

> specifically tried this. I tend to use homeopathic ammonia.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I wouldn't use ornithine if ammonia is high - urinary ornithine may

reperesent ornithine leakage into the urine or spillover from high serum

levels. Try arginine in tiny doses - use kinesiology if you can.

Dr Robyn Cosford

[ ] ammonia

>

>

> An answer on the ammonia question - high urinary ornithine occurs in

some

> 50% of children with autism in my experience - ornithine is part of the

uea

> cycle for the removal of ammonia via urea. These children are often spacey

> and are made worse by glutamine which overloads the urea cycle by feeding

> into ornithine. I suspect the enzyme at fault is ornithine

> carbamoyl-transferase, within the mitochondria (on the inner membrane)-

> another piece of evidence for mitochondrial dysfunction in these

children.

> Perhaps some arginine might help bypass the problem, but I haven't

> specifically tried this. I tend to use homeopathic ammonia.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the input on arginine...We just rcvd. test results showing blood

plasma ammonia at 80umol/L (ref. ange =10-40umol/L) and probably will add

nothing more till we get help to det. what's causing the hyperammonemia and

help with stabalizing the plasma levels. I believe that this is 2ndary to

the metals(we haven't begun chelation) but am very concerned about this now.

P.S. I posted these results last P.M. and wonder if any others

deal or have dealt w/ this???

Re: [ ] ammonia

Dear - a few grains on the tongue each day for a few days and

watch -

if no adverse reaction, try 10 mg/day. maximum 50 mg/day.

[ ] ammonia

> >

> >

> > An answer on the ammonia question - high urinary ornithine occurs

in

> some

> > 50% of children with autism in my experience - ornithine is part of

the

> uea

> > cycle for the removal of ammonia via urea. These children are often

> spacey

> > and are made worse by glutamine which overloads the urea cycle by

> feeding

> > into ornithine. I suspect the enzyme at fault is ornithine

> > carbamoyl-transferase, within the mitochondria (on the inner

membrane)-

> > another piece of evidence for mitochondrial dysfunction in these

> children.

> > Perhaps some arginine might help bypass the problem, but I haven't

> > specifically tried this. I tend to use homeopathic ammonia.

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Dear Robyn,

I am so sorry that you feel inhibited in any way from

posting. I implore you to reread the mail on this thread:

a large majority of it says that people are GRATEFUL that

there are professionals on the list who post with their

expertise. I have not yet posted my longer commentary

on this thread, but my sentiments are in of appreciation.

best regards,

Moria

At 07:44 PM 6/14/2001 -0000, you wrote:

>, I have sent a reply - but after seeing recent comments about

>professionlals posting in this list, I will post no more.

>Dr Robyn Cosford

> [ ] ammonia

>> >

>> >

>> > An answer on the ammonia question - high urinary ornithine occurs in

>> some

>> > 50% of children with autism in my experience - ornithine is part of

>the

>> uea

>> > cycle for the removal of ammonia via urea. These children are often

>> spacey

>> > and are made worse by glutamine which overloads the urea cycle by

>> feeding

>> > into ornithine. I suspect the enzyme at fault is ornithine

>> > carbamoyl-transferase, within the mitochondria (on the inner

>membrane)-

>> > another piece of evidence for mitochondrial dysfunction in these

>> children.

>> > Perhaps some arginine might help bypass the problem, but I haven't

>> > specifically tried this. I tend to use homeopathic ammonia.

>> >

>> >

>> >

[Guest guest]

> , I have sent a reply - but after seeing recent comments about

> professionlals posting in this list, I will post no more.

> Dr Robyn Cosford

Please continue to post.

The issue is NOT professionals posting, but people without manners

abusing the fact they have some license or other pretense of knowledge

as an excuse to be arrogant and rude. There is no issue with your

postings. I hope you will continue them.

Andy

[Guest guest]

Dear - a few grains on the tongue each day for a few days and watch -

if no adverse reaction, try 10 mg/day. maximum 50 mg/day.

[ ] ammonia

> >

> >

> > An answer on the ammonia question - high urinary ornithine occurs in

> some

> > 50% of children with autism in my experience - ornithine is part of

the

> uea

> > cycle for the removal of ammonia via urea. These children are often

> spacey

> > and are made worse by glutamine which overloads the urea cycle by

> feeding

> > into ornithine. I suspect the enzyme at fault is ornithine

> > carbamoyl-transferase, within the mitochondria (on the inner

membrane)-

> > another piece of evidence for mitochondrial dysfunction in these

> children.

> > Perhaps some arginine might help bypass the problem, but I haven't

> > specifically tried this. I tend to use homeopathic ammonia.

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

, I have sent a reply - but after seeing recent comments about

professionlals posting in this list, I will post no more.

Dr Robyn Cosford

[ ] ammonia

> >

> >

> > An answer on the ammonia question - high urinary ornithine occurs in

> some

> > 50% of children with autism in my experience - ornithine is part of

the

> uea

> > cycle for the removal of ammonia via urea. These children are often

> spacey

> > and are made worse by glutamine which overloads the urea cycle by

> feeding

> > into ornithine. I suspect the enzyme at fault is ornithine

> > carbamoyl-transferase, within the mitochondria (on the inner

membrane)-

> > another piece of evidence for mitochondrial dysfunction in these

> children.

> > Perhaps some arginine might help bypass the problem, but I haven't

> > specifically tried this. I tend to use homeopathic ammonia.

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Dr. Cosford,

It is regrettable that you have been made to feel this way. I for one appreciate

your involvement.

The issue here seems to be more related to pushing products (which you don't).

Jon.

[ ] ammonia

> >

> >

> > An answer on the ammonia question - high urinary ornithine occurs in

> some

> > 50% of children with autism in my experience - ornithine is part of

the

> uea

> > cycle for the removal of ammonia via urea. These children are often

> spacey

> > and are made worse by glutamine which overloads the urea cycle by

> feeding

> > into ornithine. I suspect the enzyme at fault is ornithine

> > carbamoyl-transferase, within the mitochondria (on the inner

membrane)-

> > another piece of evidence for mitochondrial dysfunction in these

> children.

> > Perhaps some arginine might help bypass the problem, but I haven't

> > specifically tried this. I tend to use homeopathic ammonia.

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I believe all of us would prefer you to stay. Everyone's opinion is

appreciated and respected here. Sales pitches for business reasons are

not. I have raved and raved about Epsom Salts baths to everyone how

it has helped my son but I have no financial ties with Epsom Salts

what-so-ever. Please consider wheathering the storm with us.

However, the final decision of course is yours.

> , I have sent a reply - but after seeing recent comments about

> professionlals posting in this list, I will post no more.

> Dr Robyn Cosford

> [ ] ammonia

> > >

> > >

> > > An answer on the ammonia question - high urinary ornithine

occurs in

> > some

> > > 50% of children with autism in my experience - ornithine is

part of

> the

> > uea

> > > cycle for the removal of ammonia via urea. These children are

often

> > spacey

> > > and are made worse by glutamine which overloads the urea cycle

by

> > feeding

> > > into ornithine. I suspect the enzyme at fault is ornithine

> > > carbamoyl-transferase, within the mitochondria (on the inner

> membrane)-

> > > another piece of evidence for mitochondrial dysfunction in

these

> > children.

> > > Perhaps some arginine might help bypass the problem, but I

haven't

> > > specifically tried this. I tend to use homeopathic ammonia.

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I started to suspect something... when I realized that my son's pee

smells really REALLY.. not bad, but it was a really weird smell that I

couldn't stand... Now I know pee isn't supposed to smell like roses, but

I always suspected it was something there, because

it didn't really smell like pee. First I found an explanation about the

lack of sulfate and how this should be an indication... Ok, I " fixed "

that, and it's like the smell it's worse now. So that's why I kept

looking for an explanation...

It appears that the body cannot just excrete ammonia when there is in

excess. So ammonia should be first converted to urea which is less toxic

than ammonia, and after that excreted in the urine. But some people have

problems with this process. It's something about

some enzymes that are not working as they should, or those enzymes are

completely missing... I forgot... Anyway, this whole process is very

complicated and I don't understand most of it... but I was thinking that

with our kids' gut bugs, ammonia is OBVIOUSLY

elevated. Also, these kids eat a lot of protein because of the CFGF

diet. So again this is another reason why ammonia will increase (protein

contains amino acids, and amino means NH3 - nitrogen). If their capacity

to excrete the nitrogen is impaired (like what's

new) then I guess these kids are in trouble

I understood that many times this disorder is inherited, so there's no

wonder if many members of the same family have the same problem...

Also, there could be something in here about this P5P that people keep

complaining about... I am sorry, I don't understand the process very

well, as I said, so I can't possibly explain this (maybe it will take me

another month or so to read about it LOL). I have

noticed though that it's mentioned many times in relation to this urea

cycle process and nitrogen excretion. From what I have read, I don't

understand yet if B6 is beneficial in the P5P form or that it actually

causes problems, but anyway... it could be something

related...

Now, to be honest, it's been more than a month since I keep reading

about these things, and I still couldn't draw the line and form an idea

and understand what's actually happening. And last night, trying to put

all these things into words made me think about it a

little more organized and made me understand a little better what is all

about So your email, , was very welcome ) LOL

Oh! The test that should be run to see if ammonia levels are high is a

uric serum test (I have no idea if this is how it's translated, but it

should give you an idea). I guess the alkaline stool should be a signal,

but to actually measure the ammonia you can do a

urine test. It should be very cheap

Now, about Alpha Ketogluratic Acid... It's my understanding that it

could take care of the problem, it would help re-make the glutamate

(glutamate is used to reduce ammonia and this is a very important

neurotransmitter so it's better to have " normal " levels, not

low or high) and also would reduce the brain fog produce by ammonia...

BUT! you still have to fix this process. I mean I imagine it should

exist some medication to help someone get rid of this toxic ammonia from

the body.

I was reading that glucagon was used with success and was wondering why

is always something about pancreas in all the things I read...

Anyway, sorry my thoughts are so foggy it must be the ammonia )LOL

Hope somebody will come with better ideas...

Valentina

[Guest guest]

> Does anybody know what occurs when you have a very

> high a-Ketoglutarate reading plus a high ammonia blood draw?

Ammonia is detoxified in several ways in the body.

One is that it gets stuck on alpha keto glutarate to make glutamine.

If the enzyme that does this is on the fritz then these two would be

elevated.

Another is that is is combined with ornithine to make urea.

Another is that it is excreted as ammonium ion in urine, which

requires the urine to be acidic. Eating alkalanizing foods prevents

the body from getting rid of ammonia this way.

Ammonia generally comes from the metabolism of protein, so restricting

dietary protein reduces the body's ammonia levels. of course this may

conflict with other reasons you want to give him MORE protein....

>We are having

> a stool analysis done for the second time to rule out another

bacteria

> infection, as you note. My son's doctor believes since his liver

function

> profile looked great, the high ammonia readings are either

indicative of (1)

> a bacteria infection, or (2) are the result of the blood not being

sent to

> the lab properly. There are very specific directions on putting the

blood

> immediately on ice. I have read that improper readings are found

very very

> often. Also, unfortunately, high ammonia readings can be indicative

of a

> major organ failure.

Yes, it is both difficult to measure and potentially an indicator of

serious problems.

Lots of autistic children have high ammonia.

You may wish to have a test done for ammonia at a local hospital where

you don't have to worry about the blood

[Guest guest]

> Hello,

> Does anyone know what typical ammonia levels for children are and

> what it could mean if a child's is high. Also what could I find out

> about bringing the ammonia down.

>

> Thank you

>

>

If it is high their liver is screwed up, and the ammonia is screwing

up their brain.

You reduce it by restricting protein intake, feeding them alpha keto

glutarate, by acidifying the urine and by chelating them. general

liver support supplements may also help.

Andy . .. . . . . . . . . . . .

[Guest guest]

,

You are absolutely right about the ammonia needing to be drawn and frozen

that quickly. But, elevations are not necessarily indicative of a bacterial

infection (but can be) and may be more indicative of a liver problem as Andy

indicated and maybe even more of a kidney and pH problem. I know about this

as my daughter Tasya had an ammonia problem recently which caused a sudden

reassertion of her seizure activity.

Whereas measurement of ammonia is difficult and because of the blood draw,

traumatic, it can be ascertained by looking at a properly run organic acid

in urine test. When we ran her test through MetaMetrix, we saw elevations

of citrate (which is indicative of an arginine deficiency), orotate (which

may be indicative of both an arginine and intracellular magnesium

deficiency), and isocitrate an indicator of a breakdown in the Krebs cycle,

specific to CoQ10, manganese, magnesium and possibly lipoic acid. Because

of the elevations, she petite mal, drop seizures started up again. After

running the test and making the necessary adjustments with her nutritional

and meds, she has now become totally seizure free. Not only that, her eeg,

which was very spiky, is essentially normal, much to the chagrin of her

neurologist who is quite bewildered by what we did.

What I posted is of course, just a microcosm of the issue of ammonia buildup

and its neurotoxicity, but a paper outlining everything is being prepared

with a number of MD's and Ph.D.'s I work with. As soon as it is ready I'll

post it here.

In health,

Mark Schauss

[ ] Ammonia

> - ammonia levels are often high because the samples weren't taken

> properly and/or sent to the lab properly. I found this out after having

to

> take 3 different blood draws! Only the third time was taken right,

because

> I was on their case and telling them how to do it, and it turned out

normal.

> Apparently they have to be drawn and spinned and put on ice within 20

> minutes. Anyway, if it really is high, it usually can be indicative of a

> bacterial infection. Clearing up the bacteria infection often care of it.

> As far as a supplement, taking 100 mg. Of alpha-ketoglutaric acid daily is

> suppose to help.

>

>

>

>

>

> =======================================================

>

[Guest guest]

> ,

>

> You are absolutely right about the ammonia needing to be drawn and

frozen

> that quickly. But, elevations are not necessarily indicative of a

bacterial

> infection (but can be) and may be more indicative of a liver

problem as Andy

> indicated and maybe even more of a kidney and pH problem. I know

about this

> as my daughter Tasya had an ammonia problem recently which caused a

sudden

> reassertion of her seizure activity.

>

> Whereas measurement of ammonia is difficult and because of the

blood draw,

> traumatic, it can be ascertained by looking at a properly run

organic acid

> in urine test. When we ran her test through MetaMetrix, we saw

elevations

> of citrate (which is indicative of an arginine deficiency), orotate

(which

> may be indicative of both an arginine and intracellular magnesium

> deficiency), and isocitrate an indicator of a breakdown in the

Krebs cycle,

> specific to CoQ10, manganese, magnesium and possibly lipoic acid.

Because

> of the elevations, she petite mal, drop seizures started up again.

After

> running the test and making the necessary adjustments with her

nutritional

> and meds, she has now become totally seizure free. Not only that,

her eeg,

> which was very spiky, is essentially normal, much to the chagrin of

her

> neurologist who is quite bewildered by what we did.

>

> What I posted is of course, just a microcosm of the issue of

ammonia buildup

> and its neurotoxicity, but a paper outlining everything is being

prepared

> with a number of MD's and Ph.D.'s I work with. As soon as it is

ready I'll

> post it here.

>

> In health,

> Mark Schauss

> [ ] Ammonia

>

>

> > - ammonia levels are often high because the samples weren't

taken

> > properly and/or sent to the lab properly. I found this out after

having

> to

> > take 3 different blood draws! Only the third time was taken

right,

> because

> > I was on their case and telling them how to do it, and it turned

out

> normal.

> > Apparently they have to be drawn and spinned and put on ice

within 20

> > minutes. Anyway, if it really is high, it usually can be

indicative of a

> > bacterial infection. Clearing up the bacteria infection often

care of it.

> > As far as a supplement, taking 100 mg. Of alpha-ketoglutaric acid

daily is

> > suppose to help.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > =======================================================

> >

[Guest guest]

OK: my son's carbon dioxide level tested low, ... will giving him bicarbonate

up this?

In what form?

Thanks,

Specifically,

was deficient in sodium (40% off) and bicarbonate (carbon dioxide:

42%

off). Levels of other electrolytes were too high, such as calcium (66%

off)

and phosphorus (43%).

[Guest guest]

, it is too complicated for me to understand, I know what

some things mean, but you have to look at the blood testing as

a whole to be able to determine what needs to be done.

Best, Carlton

CJ Dir wrote:

>

> OK: my son's carbon dioxide level tested low, ... will giving him bicarbonate

up this?

> In what form?

> Thanks,

>

> Specifically,

> was deficient in sodium (40% off) and bicarbonate (carbon dioxide:

> 42%

> off). Levels of other electrolytes were too high, such as calcium (66%

> off)

> and phosphorus (43%).

>

>

[Guest guest]

You're brave. They'll go nuts. Of course, the problem is that people who

actually think that DMSA and ALA are not great for our kids (like me) got off

the A-M list because once you do the research you cannot carry on there.

Even though there have been some helpful posts.

ALA does have some good uses, however. I'm not saying it doesn't, and

possibly the ALA in Brainchild for eg. is not going to harm anyone, only

might help. Just don't know. There are risks, that's what I'm saying.

When i went to the sources for what Dr. Kane is saying here, and what Andy

and all them say on A-M, it all became much clearer that DMSA/ALA protocol,

over long time with our kids is questionable.

Of course, I haven't spent my life studying it. I just looked at what

people on A-M said, what the people on other lists said, what the medical

profession says, what the researchers say, then I made a decision. Then

moved on.

So when you read the A-M board, you will not be meeting people who moved on,

so to speak.

But go for it, by all means! I could be very wrong and so could lots of

other people!

Marti

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 15/02/2003 12:33:56 GMT Standard Time, Martharolfe@...

writes:

> So when you read the A-M board, you will not be meeting people who moved on,

>

> so to speak.

>

But..................you may be meeting people who did move on............and

then went back

Mandi in UK