Re: Accupuncture Treatments

[Guest guest]

FRan, this sounds like one of those cases Chinese medicine can help, I

hope. They have results in areas like pain management (especially

rheumatic and muscles), habits, surgery and other conditions that

Western researchers gape like yokels at. They have a group of herbs

called " dit-da-jow, " which are unguents or penetrants, that can

completely palliate joint injuries through " re-capillarization " which

happens rapidly compared to Western orthpedic and other rehab

techniques. Heals the tiniest blood vessels fast, and gets what's

needed to the other tissues in a hurry, they believe. A woman in Lake

Tahoe was hit by a sail mast, dislocating her shoulder, producing huge

edema and pain. Using only the Chinese penetrant called

" Jeng-Gu-Shui, " was back to normal in two days. Her entire medical

community said it took others 1-3 months to heal that kind of injury.

These unguents were developed for boxing and work-injuries in the 5th

Century BCE, and improved systematically during the 1600's by the

experiment-minded Ch'an Buddhist athletes, China's history books say.

The commercially available " Tiger Balm " has a very, VERY weak version

of SOME of the contents of Jeng-Gu-Shui. But you can get the real,

liquid stuff without much effort. For me, lower back pain vanishes

overnight.

Western methods, on the other hand, outstrip traditional Chinese ones

in many cases. The best practitioners in our neck of the woods combine

the two.

To Western theory, their explanations sound like Medieval alchemy at

first, but once Western researchers started going over it in Peking,

they found concordances and Western-style explanations. Seems the

Chinese words refer back to old, symbolic language usages and don't

always literally mean things like " liver processing water, " but what

they call balancing " wet energy " and " dry energy, " and these things

correlate with liquid retention, or dehydration, which also correlate

with other electrolyte sensitive conditions we know but do not

necessarily love. Their whole system is based on function - not

structures. I spent years under Chinese education, and it is another

world entirely to Western ears and the brains, but " out there, " the

same world.

Dave

On Jul 16, 2006, at 7:21 PM, pagirl1946 wrote:

> I decided to try accupuncture because I have had two smyptoms for

> many years and have gotten no help from doctors. I always tell new

> doctors them about the symptoms hoping that will trigger something in

> their mind but it never does. The first is the " hot flashes " I

> have. Although I was 52 when they started they are not menopause

> related, they are different and estrogen doesn't help them. The

> second is the inflammation like pain in my feet. These two symptoms

> have destroyed my life and at one point, I considered suicide. I

> always thought they were related to my high bp in some way. The

> sweating started around the same time my bp started going up.

> Doctors have no ideas and can only prescribe pills for both problems

> which make my feet worse.

>

> When I first saw the accupuncturist and told him about the sweating,

> he got very interested. I told him it starts in the back of my head

> and I can feel it going down my spine. He said that told him

> something. He showed me a chart showing were the body's " channels "

> are. One of them goes up the spine across the back of the head and

> down the other side of the spine. These channels are connected by

> branches to the organs. He says my chi or the body's energy is out of

> balance. I had been thinking for years that my body was all screwed

> up. I also told him about the sudden weight gain (17 lbs in 33

> days) He said my liver is not able to process water. The treatment

> restores the balance in the liver and kidneys. He also said that

> stress affects the liver which is something I didn't know. I do know

> that all of these drugs doctors keep pushing are processed in the

> liver and/or kidneys. I was under a terrible amount of stress

> starting around the time my bp started going up and the sweating

> started. Everything doctors either dismissed or ignored, he

> understands and has explained. He said the muscle cramps I am having

> (K is 4.3 and magnesium is OK too) is because my liver isn't getting

> enough blood and that affects the muscles. The cramps are most often

> in my toes but I also have them in my back and under my breasts if I

> move the wrong direction. I have only had two treatments but already

> the sweating and heat intolerance is much better. The pain and the

> heat in my feet are much better, too. Accuppuncture can help things

> like nausea, allergies, arthritis and even weight watchers. I have

> two friends who are constantly dieting and I am going to recommend it

> to them. For me it is a welcome relief from tests and pills and

> passing test results from one doctor to another.

>

> Fran

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/16/06 10:22:37 PM, frand.2@... writes:

I decided to try accupuncture because I have had two smyptoms for

many years and have gotten no help from doctors. I always tell new

doctors them about the symptoms hoping that will trigger something in

their mind but it never does. The first is the "hot flashes" I

have. Although I was 52 when they started they are not menopause

related, they are different and estrogen doesn't help them. The

second is the inflammation like pain in my feet. These two symptoms

have destroyed my life and at one point, I considered suicide. I

always thought they were related to my high bp in some way. The

sweating started around the same time my bp started going up.

Doctors have no ideas and can only prescribe pills for both problems

which make my feet worse.

When I first saw the accupuncturist and told him about the sweating,

he got very interested. I told him it starts in the back of my head

and I can feel it going down my spine. He said that told him

something. He showed me a chart showing were the body's "channels"

are. One of them goes up the spine across the back of the head and

down the other side of the spine. These channels are connected by

branches to the organs. He says my chi or the body's energy is out of

balance. I had been thinking for years that my body was all screwed

up. I also told him about the sudden weight gain (17 lbs in 33

days) He said my liver is not able to process water. The treatment

restores the balance in the liver and kidneys. He also said that

stress affects the liver which is something I didn't know. I do know

that all of these drugs doctors keep pushing are processed in the

liver and/or kidneys. I was under a terrible amount of stress

starting around the time my bp started going up and the sweating

started. Everything doctors either dismissed or ignored, he

understands and has explained. He said the muscle cramps I am having

(K is 4.3 and magnesium is OK too) is because my liver isn't getting

enough blood and that affects the muscles. The cramps are most often

in my toes but I also have them in my back and under my breasts if I

move the wrong direction. I have only had two treatments but already

the sweating and heat intolerance is much better. The pain and the

heat in my feet are much better, too. Accuppuncture can help things

like nausea, allergies, arthritis and even weight watchers. I have

two friends who are constantly dieting and I am going to recommend it

to them. For me it is a welcome relief from tests and pills and

passing test results from one doctor to another.

Fran

Charlantism lives but maybe not. Keep us posted. We need long term followup. The theories he is taking about are hooey.

May your pressure be low!

C.E. Grim, B.S., M.S., M.D.

Specializing in Difficult to Control High Blood Pressure

and the Physiology and History of Survival During

Hard Times and Heart Disease today.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/17/06 1:16:53 AM, dave@... writes:

FRan, this sounds like one of those cases Chinese medicine can help, I

hope.  They have results in areas like pain management (especially

rheumatic and muscles), habits, surgery and other conditions that

Western researchers gape like yokels at.   

CEG: Many of us gape because of the lack of controlled trials to demonstrate that the treatments do more good than harm. If they are so good it would not tak We also gape a the gullibility of the public to seek unproven treatments for serious illnesses.

They have a group of herbs

called "dit-da-jow," which are unguents or penetrants, that can

completely palliate joint injuries through "re-capillarization" which

happens rapidly compared to Western orthpedic and other rehab

techniques.    Heals the tiniest blood vessels fast, and gets what's

needed to the other tissues in a hurry, they believe. 

I believe only after I see. Are there any animal or human studies where they have shown the tinest blood vessels heal.

A woman in Lake

Tahoe was hit by a sail mast, dislocating her shoulder, producing huge

edema and pain.  Using only the Chinese penetrant called

"Jeng-Gu-Shui," was back to normal in two days.  Her entire medical

community said it took others 1-3 months to heal that kind of injury.

One swallow does not a flock make. Need 100s randomized to each Rx to test these things. If the test prove they are as good as or better then they will be quickly adopted.

 

These unguents were developed for boxing and work-injuries in the 5th

Century BCE, and improved systematically during the 1600's by the

experiment-minded Ch'an Buddhist athletes, China's history books say. 

The commercially available "Tiger Balm" has a very, VERY weak version

of SOME of the contents of Jeng-Gu-Shui.  But you can get the real,

liquid stuff without much effort.  For me, lower back pain vanishes

overnight.

And the trial results are where?

Western methods, on the other hand, outstrip traditional Chinese ones

in many cases.  The best practitioners in our neck of the woods combine

the two.

To Western theory, their explanations sound like Medieval alchemy at

first, but once Western researchers started going over it in Peking,

they found concordances and Western-style explanations. 

I visited a Peking Herbal Company and their Drs. The took my pulse and told me I was too fat (true), had diabetes (false), had high blood pressure (false), had heart disease (false) and wanted me to buy several hundred $ of herbs.

I did not.

Seems the

Chinese words refer back to old, symbolic language usages and don't

always literally mean things like "liver processing water," but what

they call balancing "wet energy" and "dry energy," and these things

correlate with liquid retention, or dehydration, which also correlate

with other electrolyte sensitive conditions we know but do not

necessarily love.  Their whole system is based on function - not

structures.   

CEG: I find it hard to separate form(structure) from function in the human body.

I spent years under Chinese education, and it is another

world entirely to Western ears and the brains, but "out there," the

same world.

CEG

Controlled Trials speak a universal language. Either a new treatement (or old) works better than, the same as, or worse than the placebo or other old or new treatment(s). Until properly tested I see no reason to risk untested treatments unless all other proven treatments have failed. Then I recommend an n of 1 trial we have discussed before.

Medicine is difficult enough using what we know to be the best approach at this point in our knowledge base.

Dave

May your pressure be low!

C.E. Grim, B.S., M.S., M.D.

Specializing in Difficult to Control High Blood Pressure

and the Physiology and History of Survival During

Hard Times and Heart Disease today.

[Guest guest]

If I spoke too familiarly, or conversationally, I apologise. I agree

that testing and robustness of results is the only way to make anything

part of any practicum. I speak only of the future, and exciting new

directions in research.

There is now significant study - much of in conducted between

international and Peking government medical groups. But the robust

results that exceed Western ones are limited to those areas I mentioned

(pain management - especially rheumatic and muscular pain - surgery

anesthesisia and speeded injury-healing). If you want, I'll post the

research. Some of the same people on the DASH trials have been on this

Peking work. More than flocks, they have tested samples so large

randomization wasn't required for grants, but still applied. The

results better than Western ones are narrow, though, as I said. Much

of it does NOT prove out yet.

The Chinese never separated function from structure, they just knew

little about structure until the West started learning about it in the

17th Century. That's the point - not separating. They looked at

apparently unrelated systems' effects upon the one of complaint earlier

than we. Clinical specialisation has weaknesses, and missing

systemic-effects is one of them. Our relatively new term

" Interdisciplinary studies " points to our growing awareness of this in

the Western university.

I only mention evens I have observed directly because I am not

qualified to make generalisations. I'll post the research they were

examples of. As you often say, when the insurance companies start

paying for something, and even insist upon it in some cases, money

talks. They know about pain and rheumatic benefits that outstrip ours.

Faster and more effective = less insured patient outflow. Lower costs

= more profits.

Once the culturally insular or industrially recalcitrant get out of the

way and allow sufficient research, more of the things that do work best

can be " proven " as we say here in the West. The business of salt

overusage in the food industry is a good example or industrial

foot-dragging.

I was taught the idea of science was to do the experiment, challenge

and repeat as much as possible, and accept the resulting chips -

however they might fall. What I do advocate is beefing up the testing,

and speeding up research aimed at patient benefit a little more, and

company profits a little less.

Dave

On Jul 18, 2006, at 5:34 AM, lowerbp2@... wrote:

>

> In a message dated 7/17/06 1:16:53 AM, dave@... writes:

>

>

> FRan, this sounds like one of those cases Chinese medicine can help, I

> hope.  They have results in areas like pain management (especially

> rheumatic and muscles), habits, surgery and other conditions that

> Western researchers gape like yokels at.   

>

> CEG:  Many of us gape because of the lack of controlled trials to

> demonstrate that the treatments do more good than harm.  If they are

> so good it would not tak We also gape a the gullibility of the public

> to seek unproven treatments for serious illnesses. 

>

> They have a group of herbs

> called " dit-da-jow, " which are unguents or penetrants, that can

> completely palliate joint injuries through " re-capillarization " which

> happens rapidly compared to Western orthpedic and other rehab

> techniques.    Heals the tiniest blood vessels fast, and gets what's

> needed to the other tissues in a hurry, they believe. 

>

>

> I believe only after I see.  Are there any animal or human studies

> where they have shown the tinest blood vessels heal.

>

> A woman in Lake

> Tahoe was hit by a sail mast, dislocating her shoulder, producing huge

> edema and pain.  Using only the Chinese penetrant called

> " Jeng-Gu-Shui, " was back to normal in two days.  Her entire medical

> community said it took others 1-3 months to heal that kind of injury.

>

> One swallow does not a flock make. Need 100s randomized to each Rx to

> test these things.  If the test prove they are as good as or better

> then they will be quickly adopted.

>  

> These unguents were developed for boxing and work-injuries in the 5th

> Century BCE, and improved systematically during the 1600's by the

> experiment-minded Ch'an Buddhist athletes, China's history books say. 

> The commercially available " Tiger Balm " has a very, VERY weak version

> of SOME of the contents of Jeng-Gu-Shui.  But you can get the real,

> liquid stuff without much effort.  For me, lower back pain vanishes

> overnight.

>

> And the trial results are where?

>

>

> Western methods, on the other hand, outstrip traditional Chinese ones

> in many cases.  The best practitioners in our neck of the woods

> combine

> the two.

>

> To Western theory, their explanations sound like Medieval alchemy at

> first, but once Western researchers started going over it in Peking,

> they found concordances and Western-style explanations. 

>

> I visited a Peking Herbal Company and their Drs.  The took my pulse

> and told me I was too fat (true), had diabetes (false), had high blood

> pressure (false), had heart disease (false) and wanted me to buy

> several hundred $ of herbs.

>

> I did not.

>

> Seems the

> Chinese words refer back to old, symbolic language usages and don't

> always literally mean things like " liver processing water, " but what

> they call balancing " wet energy " and " dry energy, " and these things

> correlate with liquid retention, or dehydration, which also correlate

> with other electrolyte sensitive conditions we know but do not

> necessarily love.  Their whole system is based on function - not

> structures.   

>

> CEG:  I find it hard to separate form(structure) from function in the

> human body.

>

> I spent years under Chinese education, and it is another

> world entirely to Western ears and the brains, but " out there, " the

> same world.

>

> CEG

> Controlled Trials speak a universal language.  Either a new

> treatement (or old) works better than, the same as, or worse than the

> placebo or other old or new treatment(s).  Until properly tested I see

> no reason to risk untested treatments unless all other proven

> treatments have failed. Then I recommend an n of 1 trial  we have

> discussed before.

>

>

>

> Medicine is difficult enough using what we know to be the best

> approach at this point in our knowledge base. 

>

> Dave

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/18/06 9:57:36 AM, dave@... writes:

More than flocks, they have tested samples so large

randomization wasn't required for grants, but still applied. 

I am not certain what you mean by a sample so large randomization was not necessary. How else do you evaluate a treatment properly other than by randomization?

May your pressure be low!

C.E. Grim, B.S., M.S., M.D.

Specializing in Difficult to Control High Blood Pressure

and the Physiology and History of Survival During

Hard Times and Heart Disease today.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/18/06 9:57:36 AM, dave@... writes:

More than flocks, they have tested samples so large

randomization wasn't required for grants, but still applied. 

You might enjoy reading an older book called: Costs Risks and Benefits of Surgery--cant recall the author now but he was one of the leaders in championing randomized trials for everything medical.

May your pressure be low!

C.E. Grim, B.S., M.S., M.D.

Specializing in Difficult to Control High Blood Pressure

and the Physiology and History of Survival During

Hard Times and Heart Disease today.