Re: Viral Immunity

[Guest guest]

Rodney,

Every time that I read one of those anecdotal reports about people on

CR who rarely get colds, I wonder where and how they live. For the

past several years, at least once a year, I have contracted some virus

serious enough that I develop a fever, and every time I lose a couple

of pounds that I regain after several weeks.

I attribute the infections to the fact that I live in a building that

has 300 apartments where approximately 800 people live. Many of these

people use public transportation in the Washington, D.C. area where

they have a greater chance of catching some transmittable virus that

they can pass along.

I think that someone living in a single family house who stays at home

or commutes to work by private vehicle in a small city has a smaller

chance of getting exposed to a cold virus. The models of avian flu

pandemic that I have seen theorize that the first points of infection

will be the big crowded cities (New York, Washington, San Francisco)

and that the infection will spread along transportation routes.

Quarentines work by isolating infected persons and preventing the

disease from being transmitted.

So, next time that someone on CR reports that they rarely get colds, I

would like to know their particular environmental situation. It is

possible that people who start practicing caloric restriction

coincidentally reduce their social contacts (parties, bars,

restaurants, clubs) thereby reducing their chance of getting sick.

Tony Zamora

>

> Hi folks:

>

> THIS MAY (POSSIBLY) TURN OUT TO BE A VERY IMPORTANT STUDY.

>

> Experience with viral infections in mice suggests that viral immunity

> may be impaired during caloric restriction because of inadequate

> energy reserves reflected in low body weight. That seems to be in

> conflict with anecdotal reports here of fewer cases of viral

> infections since starting CR.

>

> Nevertheless, if this study is accurate and applies to humans, then

> it likely will have important implications if Avian Flu ever

> arrives. The implications might be that one should eat considerably

> more temporarily, to increase energy reserves, if there is a

> realistic possibility of catching a serious type of flu.

>

> May 2006. PMID: 16614394.

>

> " Malnutrition and Energy Restriction Differentially Affect viral

> Immunity " .

>

> The comments associated with FIGURE 1 in the study are:

>

> " FIGURE 1. Weight loss occurs in mice with influenza infection due

> to a decrease in energy intake and an increase in energy demands.

> Young and aged mice can lose up to 35% of their body weight and

> recover from infection, which suggests a critical weight indicative

> of sufficient energy reserves to recover from infection. Lifelong ER

> results in a 30% decrease in starting weight that may be only

> marginally above this critical threshold. In the case of aged ER

> mice, 100% mortality was observed by day 7, before an adaptive T cell

> response, suggesting a primary influence of underweight on innate

> immunity. "

>

> When asked whether sufficient energy supplies could be maintained by

> extra feeding, either by mouth or intravenously, either before or

> during a flu infection, the author's reply was:

>

> " ....................... In our next studies, we are doing precisely

> what you have asked: to determine if the immune response to

> influenza can be restored by refeeding prior to infection. We

> suspect that it will, but have no data to support our hypothesis.

> Stay tuned for our next study. "

>

> It would be a pity for us all to succumb to Avian Flu because of

> inadequate energy reserves available to fight the infection.

>

> Rodney.

>

[Guest guest]

Rodney,

Every time that I read one of those anecdotal reports about people on

CR who rarely get colds, I wonder where and how they live. For the

past several years, at least once a year, I have contracted some virus

serious enough that I develop a fever, and every time I lose a couple

of pounds that I regain after several weeks.

I attribute the infections to the fact that I live in a building that

has 300 apartments where approximately 800 people live. Many of these

people use public transportation in the Washington, D.C. area where

they have a greater chance of catching some transmittable virus that

they can pass along.

I think that someone living in a single family house who stays at home

or commutes to work by private vehicle in a small city has a smaller

chance of getting exposed to a cold virus. The models of avian flu

pandemic that I have seen theorize that the first points of infection

will be the big crowded cities (New York, Washington, San Francisco)

and that the infection will spread along transportation routes.

Quarentines work by isolating infected persons and preventing the

disease from being transmitted.

So, next time that someone on CR reports that they rarely get colds, I

would like to know their particular environmental situation. It is

possible that people who start practicing caloric restriction

coincidentally reduce their social contacts (parties, bars,

restaurants, clubs) thereby reducing their chance of getting sick.

Tony Zamora

>

> Hi folks:

>

> THIS MAY (POSSIBLY) TURN OUT TO BE A VERY IMPORTANT STUDY.

>

> Experience with viral infections in mice suggests that viral immunity

> may be impaired during caloric restriction because of inadequate

> energy reserves reflected in low body weight. That seems to be in

> conflict with anecdotal reports here of fewer cases of viral

> infections since starting CR.

>

> Nevertheless, if this study is accurate and applies to humans, then

> it likely will have important implications if Avian Flu ever

> arrives. The implications might be that one should eat considerably

> more temporarily, to increase energy reserves, if there is a

> realistic possibility of catching a serious type of flu.

>

> May 2006. PMID: 16614394.

>

> " Malnutrition and Energy Restriction Differentially Affect viral

> Immunity " .

>

> The comments associated with FIGURE 1 in the study are:

>

> " FIGURE 1. Weight loss occurs in mice with influenza infection due

> to a decrease in energy intake and an increase in energy demands.

> Young and aged mice can lose up to 35% of their body weight and

> recover from infection, which suggests a critical weight indicative

> of sufficient energy reserves to recover from infection. Lifelong ER

> results in a 30% decrease in starting weight that may be only

> marginally above this critical threshold. In the case of aged ER

> mice, 100% mortality was observed by day 7, before an adaptive T cell

> response, suggesting a primary influence of underweight on innate

> immunity. "

>

> When asked whether sufficient energy supplies could be maintained by

> extra feeding, either by mouth or intravenously, either before or

> during a flu infection, the author's reply was:

>

> " ....................... In our next studies, we are doing precisely

> what you have asked: to determine if the immune response to

> influenza can be restored by refeeding prior to infection. We

> suspect that it will, but have no data to support our hypothesis.

> Stay tuned for our next study. "

>

> It would be a pity for us all to succumb to Avian Flu because of

> inadequate energy reserves available to fight the infection.

>

> Rodney.

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with that, but let me point out that almost everyone has to go to walmart, etc, where we push buggies and share buggy germs.

The body has to come in contact with something, so immunity impairments are foremost in my mind. One store provides a wipe to clean the handle. And I have quit picking up everything I see to examine it. Mainly because everything has sharp edges, can scratch and stuff can be injected thru skin.

We carry a small bottle of hand sanitizer and before eating use that, if we can't wash our hands. It has been advertised that nasal secretions spread germs, and people are constantly rubbing noses, sneezing, coughing, etc. So germs go easily from nose to hand to buggy (et al), to hand to nose, possibly to mouth.

We do avoid most groupments, in general, but last fall, a day at the mall, walking, shopping, and a restaurant got me the latest flu which was like 6 days that time. (one of my docs got it too).

If you think you got it, get an antiflu shot. I am told they have such now.

But thinking CR will help me avoid the flu is the last thing I'm gonna depend on.

This is a medical issue.

That said, I don't see how bird flu that infects fowl, will infect me unless it mutates to a human variety. I don't see why a 100 cases is a "pandemic", Certainly a slow one. Maybe it kills faster than it spreads?

I believe if we get protection, it will be in the form of an antiviral shot.

The other thing is, they don't seem to make gloves that fit my hands, other than work gloves.

Regards.

[ ] Re: Viral Immunity

Rodney,Every time that I read one of those anecdotal reports about people onCR who rarely get colds, I wonder where and how they live. For thepast several years, at least once a year, I have contracted some virusserious enough that I develop a fever, and every time I lose a coupleof pounds that I regain after several weeks. I attribute the infections to the fact that I live in a building thathas 300 apartments where approximately 800 people live. Many of thesepeople use public transportation in the Washington, D.C. area wherethey have a greater chance of catching some transmittable virus thatthey can pass along. I think that someone living in a single family house who stays at homeor commutes to work by private vehicle in a small city has a smallerchance of getting exposed to a cold virus. The models of avian flupandemic that I have seen theorize that the first points of infectionwill be the big crowded cities (New York, Washington, San Francisco)and that the infection will spread along transportation routes. Quarentines work by isolating infected persons and preventing thedisease from being transmitted.So, next time that someone on CR reports that they rarely get colds, Iwould like to know their particular environmental situation. It ispossible that people who start practicing caloric restrictioncoincidentally reduce their social contacts (parties, bars,restaurants, clubs) thereby reducing their chance of getting sick.Tony Zamora>> Hi folks:> > THIS MAY (POSSIBLY) TURN OUT TO BE A VERY IMPORTANT STUDY.> > Experience with viral infections in mice suggests that viral immunity > may be impaired during caloric restriction because of inadequate > energy reserves reflected in low body weight. That seems to be in > conflict with anecdotal reports here of fewer cases of viral > infections since starting CR.> > Nevertheless, if this study is accurate and applies to humans, then > it likely will have important implications if Avian Flu ever > arrives. The implications might be that one should eat considerably > more temporarily, to increase energy reserves, if there is a > realistic possibility of catching a serious type of flu.> > May 2006. PMID: 16614394. > > "Malnutrition and Energy Restriction Differentially Affect viral > Immunity".> > The comments associated with FIGURE 1 in the study are:> > "FIGURE 1. Weight loss occurs in mice with influenza infection due > to a decrease in energy intake and an increase in energy demands. > Young and aged mice can lose up to 35% of their body weight and > recover from infection, which suggests a critical weight indicative > of sufficient energy reserves to recover from infection. Lifelong ER > results in a 30% decrease in starting weight that may be only > marginally above this critical threshold. In the case of aged ER > mice, 100% mortality was observed by day 7, before an adaptive T cell > response, suggesting a primary influence of underweight on innate > immunity."> > When asked whether sufficient energy supplies could be maintained by > extra feeding, either by mouth or intravenously, either before or > during a flu infection, the author's reply was:> > "....................... In our next studies, we are doing precisely > what you have asked: to determine if the immune response to > influenza can be restored by refeeding prior to infection. We > suspect that it will, but have no data to support our hypothesis. > Stay tuned for our next study."> > It would be a pity for us all to succumb to Avian Flu because of > inadequate energy reserves available to fight the infection.> > Rodney.>

[Guest guest]

I agree with that, but let me point out that almost everyone has to go to walmart, etc, where we push buggies and share buggy germs.

The body has to come in contact with something, so immunity impairments are foremost in my mind. One store provides a wipe to clean the handle. And I have quit picking up everything I see to examine it. Mainly because everything has sharp edges, can scratch and stuff can be injected thru skin.

We carry a small bottle of hand sanitizer and before eating use that, if we can't wash our hands. It has been advertised that nasal secretions spread germs, and people are constantly rubbing noses, sneezing, coughing, etc. So germs go easily from nose to hand to buggy (et al), to hand to nose, possibly to mouth.

We do avoid most groupments, in general, but last fall, a day at the mall, walking, shopping, and a restaurant got me the latest flu which was like 6 days that time. (one of my docs got it too).

If you think you got it, get an antiflu shot. I am told they have such now.

But thinking CR will help me avoid the flu is the last thing I'm gonna depend on.

This is a medical issue.

That said, I don't see how bird flu that infects fowl, will infect me unless it mutates to a human variety. I don't see why a 100 cases is a "pandemic", Certainly a slow one. Maybe it kills faster than it spreads?

I believe if we get protection, it will be in the form of an antiviral shot.

The other thing is, they don't seem to make gloves that fit my hands, other than work gloves.

Regards.

[ ] Re: Viral Immunity

Rodney,Every time that I read one of those anecdotal reports about people onCR who rarely get colds, I wonder where and how they live. For thepast several years, at least once a year, I have contracted some virusserious enough that I develop a fever, and every time I lose a coupleof pounds that I regain after several weeks. I attribute the infections to the fact that I live in a building thathas 300 apartments where approximately 800 people live. Many of thesepeople use public transportation in the Washington, D.C. area wherethey have a greater chance of catching some transmittable virus thatthey can pass along. I think that someone living in a single family house who stays at homeor commutes to work by private vehicle in a small city has a smallerchance of getting exposed to a cold virus. The models of avian flupandemic that I have seen theorize that the first points of infectionwill be the big crowded cities (New York, Washington, San Francisco)and that the infection will spread along transportation routes. Quarentines work by isolating infected persons and preventing thedisease from being transmitted.So, next time that someone on CR reports that they rarely get colds, Iwould like to know their particular environmental situation. It ispossible that people who start practicing caloric restrictioncoincidentally reduce their social contacts (parties, bars,restaurants, clubs) thereby reducing their chance of getting sick.Tony Zamora>> Hi folks:> > THIS MAY (POSSIBLY) TURN OUT TO BE A VERY IMPORTANT STUDY.> > Experience with viral infections in mice suggests that viral immunity > may be impaired during caloric restriction because of inadequate > energy reserves reflected in low body weight. That seems to be in > conflict with anecdotal reports here of fewer cases of viral > infections since starting CR.> > Nevertheless, if this study is accurate and applies to humans, then > it likely will have important implications if Avian Flu ever > arrives. The implications might be that one should eat considerably > more temporarily, to increase energy reserves, if there is a > realistic possibility of catching a serious type of flu.> > May 2006. PMID: 16614394. > > "Malnutrition and Energy Restriction Differentially Affect viral > Immunity".> > The comments associated with FIGURE 1 in the study are:> > "FIGURE 1. Weight loss occurs in mice with influenza infection due > to a decrease in energy intake and an increase in energy demands. > Young and aged mice can lose up to 35% of their body weight and > recover from infection, which suggests a critical weight indicative > of sufficient energy reserves to recover from infection. Lifelong ER > results in a 30% decrease in starting weight that may be only > marginally above this critical threshold. In the case of aged ER > mice, 100% mortality was observed by day 7, before an adaptive T cell > response, suggesting a primary influence of underweight on innate > immunity."> > When asked whether sufficient energy supplies could be maintained by > extra feeding, either by mouth or intravenously, either before or > during a flu infection, the author's reply was:> > "....................... In our next studies, we are doing precisely > what you have asked: to determine if the immune response to > influenza can be restored by refeeding prior to infection. We > suspect that it will, but have no data to support our hypothesis. > Stay tuned for our next study."> > It would be a pity for us all to succumb to Avian Flu because of > inadequate energy reserves available to fight the infection.> > Rodney.>

[Guest guest]

Tony: I was the last one to post that I rarely get colds anymore. I do live in a single family house. And I rarely use public transportation. However my husband teaches at town U. - a perfect " viral " incubator (as is any school). He has " brought home " colds and even coughed on me in his sleep. Still no cold. I am happy to report that now that he is eating better, he also now rarely gets colds in spite of lecturing to over 125 students in a lecture hall and having close contact with many students who come to him for guidance, in his office

But we do socialize quite a bit and come into contact with many people via that mode. This past weekend we were at a public event in the midwest and I was unprepared for the very low temperature and cold weather. I had to sit outside for a few hours during this event and was freezing in my short sleeves and summer clothes that I had brought with me. The next day, more of the same. I also got very little sleep. I thought that surely I would come down with a cold. So far I have not.

on 5/8/2006 11:50 PM, citpeks at citpeks@... wrote:

Rodney,

Every time that I read one of those anecdotal reports about people on

CR who rarely get colds, I wonder where and how they live. For the

past several years, at least once a year, I have contracted some virus

serious enough that I develop a fever, and every time I lose a couple

of pounds that I regain after several weeks.

I attribute the infections to the fact that I live in a building that

has 300 apartments where approximately 800 people live. Many of these

people use public transportation in the Washington, D.C. area where

they have a greater chance of catching some transmittable virus that

they can pass along.

I think that someone living in a single family house who stays at home

or commutes to work by private vehicle in a small city has a smaller

chance of getting exposed to a cold virus. The models of avian flu

pandemic that I have seen theorize that the first points of infection

will be the big crowded cities (New York, Washington, San Francisco)

and that the infection will spread along transportation routes.

Quarentines work by isolating infected persons and preventing the

disease from being transmitted.

So, next time that someone on CR reports that they rarely get colds, I

would like to know their particular environmental situation. It is

possible that people who start practicing caloric restriction

coincidentally reduce their social contacts (parties, bars,

restaurants, clubs) thereby reducing their chance of getting sick.

Tony Zamora

[Guest guest]

Tony: I was the last one to post that I rarely get colds anymore. I do live in a single family house. And I rarely use public transportation. However my husband teaches at town U. - a perfect " viral " incubator (as is any school). He has " brought home " colds and even coughed on me in his sleep. Still no cold. I am happy to report that now that he is eating better, he also now rarely gets colds in spite of lecturing to over 125 students in a lecture hall and having close contact with many students who come to him for guidance, in his office

But we do socialize quite a bit and come into contact with many people via that mode. This past weekend we were at a public event in the midwest and I was unprepared for the very low temperature and cold weather. I had to sit outside for a few hours during this event and was freezing in my short sleeves and summer clothes that I had brought with me. The next day, more of the same. I also got very little sleep. I thought that surely I would come down with a cold. So far I have not.

on 5/8/2006 11:50 PM, citpeks at citpeks@... wrote:

Rodney,

Every time that I read one of those anecdotal reports about people on

CR who rarely get colds, I wonder where and how they live. For the

past several years, at least once a year, I have contracted some virus

serious enough that I develop a fever, and every time I lose a couple

of pounds that I regain after several weeks.

I attribute the infections to the fact that I live in a building that

has 300 apartments where approximately 800 people live. Many of these

people use public transportation in the Washington, D.C. area where

they have a greater chance of catching some transmittable virus that

they can pass along.

I think that someone living in a single family house who stays at home

or commutes to work by private vehicle in a small city has a smaller

chance of getting exposed to a cold virus. The models of avian flu

pandemic that I have seen theorize that the first points of infection

will be the big crowded cities (New York, Washington, San Francisco)

and that the infection will spread along transportation routes.

Quarentines work by isolating infected persons and preventing the

disease from being transmitted.

So, next time that someone on CR reports that they rarely get colds, I

would like to know their particular environmental situation. It is

possible that people who start practicing caloric restriction

coincidentally reduce their social contacts (parties, bars,

restaurants, clubs) thereby reducing their chance of getting sick.

Tony Zamora

[Guest guest]

> THIS MAY (POSSIBLY) TURN OUT TO BE A VERY IMPORTANT STUDY.

>

> Experience with viral infections in mice suggests that viral immunity

> may be impaired during caloric restriction because of inadequate

> energy reserves reflected in low body weight. That seems to be in

> conflict with anecdotal reports here of fewer cases of viral

> infections since starting CR.

Hi Rodney - Fwiw, the abstract doesn't seem to me to conflict with the

anecdotal reports you refer to. The abstract seems to refer to those that

acquire infection, with no reference to infection rates in ER vs non-ER

populations.

Al

[Guest guest]

> THIS MAY (POSSIBLY) TURN OUT TO BE A VERY IMPORTANT STUDY.

>

> Experience with viral infections in mice suggests that viral immunity

> may be impaired during caloric restriction because of inadequate

> energy reserves reflected in low body weight. That seems to be in

> conflict with anecdotal reports here of fewer cases of viral

> infections since starting CR.

Hi Rodney - Fwiw, the abstract doesn't seem to me to conflict with the

anecdotal reports you refer to. The abstract seems to refer to those that

acquire infection, with no reference to infection rates in ER vs non-ER

populations.

Al

[Guest guest]

My wife never gets sick, either, and rarely gets a flu shot.

You gals have a natural immunity, I think.

Regards.

Re: [ ] Re: Viral Immunity

Tony: I was the last one to post that I rarely get colds anymore. I do live in a single family house. And I rarely use public transportation. However my husband teaches at town U. - a perfect "viral" incubator (as is any school). He has "brought home" colds and even coughed on me in his sleep. Still no cold. I am happy to report that now that he is eating better, he also now rarely gets colds in spite of lecturing to over 125 students in a lecture hall and having close contact with many students who come to him for guidance, in his officeBut we do socialize quite a bit and come into contact with many people via that mode. This past weekend we were at a public event in the midwest and I was unprepared for the very low temperature and cold weather. I had to sit outside for a few hours during this event and was freezing in my short sleeves and summer clothes that I had brought with me. The next day, more of the same. I also got very little sleep. I thought that surely I would come down with a cold. So far I have not.on 5/8/2006 11:50 PM, citpeks at citpeks@... wrote:

[Guest guest]

My wife never gets sick, either, and rarely gets a flu shot.

You gals have a natural immunity, I think.

Regards.

Re: [ ] Re: Viral Immunity

Tony: I was the last one to post that I rarely get colds anymore. I do live in a single family house. And I rarely use public transportation. However my husband teaches at town U. - a perfect "viral" incubator (as is any school). He has "brought home" colds and even coughed on me in his sleep. Still no cold. I am happy to report that now that he is eating better, he also now rarely gets colds in spite of lecturing to over 125 students in a lecture hall and having close contact with many students who come to him for guidance, in his officeBut we do socialize quite a bit and come into contact with many people via that mode. This past weekend we were at a public event in the midwest and I was unprepared for the very low temperature and cold weather. I had to sit outside for a few hours during this event and was freezing in my short sleeves and summer clothes that I had brought with me. The next day, more of the same. I also got very little sleep. I thought that surely I would come down with a cold. So far I have not.on 5/8/2006 11:50 PM, citpeks at citpeks@... wrote:

[Guest guest]

I wonder if we can infer something from the infection rates in SE Asia, eg, versus well fed countries? Since pandemic flu spread ~100 yrs ago, we should all be about the same "natural" immunity, now.

Regards.

Re: [ ] Viral Immunity

> THIS MAY (POSSIBLY) TURN OUT TO BE A VERY IMPORTANT STUDY.>> Experience with viral infections in mice suggests that viral immunity> may be impaired during caloric restriction because of inadequate> energy reserves reflected in low body weight. That seems to be in> conflict with anecdotal reports here of fewer cases of viral> infections since starting CR.Hi Rodney - Fwiw, the abstract doesn't seem to me to conflict with the anecdotal reports you refer to. The abstract seems to refer to those that acquire infection, with no reference to infection rates in ER vs non-ER populations.Al

[Guest guest]

I wonder if we can infer something from the infection rates in SE Asia, eg, versus well fed countries? Since pandemic flu spread ~100 yrs ago, we should all be about the same "natural" immunity, now.

Regards.

Re: [ ] Viral Immunity

> THIS MAY (POSSIBLY) TURN OUT TO BE A VERY IMPORTANT STUDY.>> Experience with viral infections in mice suggests that viral immunity> may be impaired during caloric restriction because of inadequate> energy reserves reflected in low body weight. That seems to be in> conflict with anecdotal reports here of fewer cases of viral> infections since starting CR.Hi Rodney - Fwiw, the abstract doesn't seem to me to conflict with the anecdotal reports you refer to. The abstract seems to refer to those that acquire infection, with no reference to infection rates in ER vs non-ER populations.Al

[Guest guest]

Hi Al:

But in their study, as I quoted from the verbal stuff appended to

FIGURE 1, none of the ad lib mice died despite losing a considerable

amount of body weight. By contrast, 100% of the ER mice died within

seven days, they believe because they had inadequate energy reserves

to survive until the T-cells could get to work.

As they said .......... stay tuned for additional papers reporting

on future studies to see whether refeeding before or during infection

can prevent the deaths in ER mice.

Rodney.

>

>

>

> > THIS MAY (POSSIBLY) TURN OUT TO BE A VERY IMPORTANT STUDY.

> >

> > Experience with viral infections in mice suggests that viral

immunity

> > may be impaired during caloric restriction because of inadequate

> > energy reserves reflected in low body weight. That seems to be in

> > conflict with anecdotal reports here of fewer cases of viral

> > infections since starting CR.

>

> Hi Rodney - Fwiw, the abstract doesn't seem to me to conflict with

the

> anecdotal reports you refer to. The abstract seems to refer to

those that

> acquire infection, with no reference to infection rates in ER vs

non-ER

> populations.

>

> Al

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Al:

But in their study, as I quoted from the verbal stuff appended to

FIGURE 1, none of the ad lib mice died despite losing a considerable

amount of body weight. By contrast, 100% of the ER mice died within

seven days, they believe because they had inadequate energy reserves

to survive until the T-cells could get to work.

As they said .......... stay tuned for additional papers reporting

on future studies to see whether refeeding before or during infection

can prevent the deaths in ER mice.

Rodney.

>

>

>

> > THIS MAY (POSSIBLY) TURN OUT TO BE A VERY IMPORTANT STUDY.

> >

> > Experience with viral infections in mice suggests that viral

immunity

> > may be impaired during caloric restriction because of inadequate

> > energy reserves reflected in low body weight. That seems to be in

> > conflict with anecdotal reports here of fewer cases of viral

> > infections since starting CR.

>

> Hi Rodney - Fwiw, the abstract doesn't seem to me to conflict with

the

> anecdotal reports you refer to. The abstract seems to refer to

those that

> acquire infection, with no reference to infection rates in ER vs

non-ER

> populations.

>

> Al

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Al:

Small correction: The 100% fatality rate was in the case of the

**aged** ER mice. Here is the quote:

" In the case of aged ER mice, 100% mortality was observed by day 7,

before an adaptive T cell response, suggesting a primary influence of

underweight on innate immunity. "

Rodney.

> >

> >

> >

> > > THIS MAY (POSSIBLY) TURN OUT TO BE A VERY IMPORTANT STUDY.

> > >

> > > Experience with viral infections in mice suggests that viral

> immunity

> > > may be impaired during caloric restriction because of inadequate

> > > energy reserves reflected in low body weight. That seems to be

in

> > > conflict with anecdotal reports here of fewer cases of viral

> > > infections since starting CR.

> >

> > Hi Rodney - Fwiw, the abstract doesn't seem to me to conflict

with

> the

> > anecdotal reports you refer to. The abstract seems to refer to

> those that

> > acquire infection, with no reference to infection rates in ER vs

> non-ER

> > populations.

> >

> > Al

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Al:

Small correction: The 100% fatality rate was in the case of the

**aged** ER mice. Here is the quote:

" In the case of aged ER mice, 100% mortality was observed by day 7,

before an adaptive T cell response, suggesting a primary influence of

underweight on innate immunity. "

Rodney.

> >

> >

> >

> > > THIS MAY (POSSIBLY) TURN OUT TO BE A VERY IMPORTANT STUDY.

> > >

> > > Experience with viral infections in mice suggests that viral

> immunity

> > > may be impaired during caloric restriction because of inadequate

> > > energy reserves reflected in low body weight. That seems to be

in

> > > conflict with anecdotal reports here of fewer cases of viral

> > > infections since starting CR.

> >

> > Hi Rodney - Fwiw, the abstract doesn't seem to me to conflict

with

> the

> > anecdotal reports you refer to. The abstract seems to refer to

> those that

> > acquire infection, with no reference to infection rates in ER vs

> non-ER

> > populations.

> >

> > Al

> >

>

[Guest guest]

At 11:50 PM 5/8/2006, citpeks wrote:

>So, next time that someone on CR reports that they rarely get colds, I

>would like to know their particular environmental situation. It is

>possible that people who start practicing caloric restriction

>coincidentally reduce their social contacts (parties, bars,

>restaurants, clubs) thereby reducing their chance of getting sick.

>

>Tony Zamora

I've found that I get colds often when I lowball my calorie

intake. I had a lot of trouble in my life last year and gained about 25

pounds... Funny enough, I didn't have any colds in the first half of the

winter when I was stuffing myself like a pig. I got some control over my

food intake in the last half of the winter and it seemed like I was having

colds continuously.

My exposure to cold viruses is pretty bad. I work at a big

university where people from all over the world are packed in like

sardines. I also have a 3.8 yr old who spends two days a week at a

playschool -- he'll get sick and miserable and there's no way I can say no

to laying down with him when he's in that state... Even though it means

getting slobbered on.

Cornell does give out free flu shots for employees, which I get.

[Guest guest]

At 11:50 PM 5/8/2006, citpeks wrote:

>So, next time that someone on CR reports that they rarely get colds, I

>would like to know their particular environmental situation. It is

>possible that people who start practicing caloric restriction

>coincidentally reduce their social contacts (parties, bars,

>restaurants, clubs) thereby reducing their chance of getting sick.

>

>Tony Zamora

I've found that I get colds often when I lowball my calorie

intake. I had a lot of trouble in my life last year and gained about 25

pounds... Funny enough, I didn't have any colds in the first half of the

winter when I was stuffing myself like a pig. I got some control over my

food intake in the last half of the winter and it seemed like I was having

colds continuously.

My exposure to cold viruses is pretty bad. I work at a big

university where people from all over the world are packed in like

sardines. I also have a 3.8 yr old who spends two days a week at a

playschool -- he'll get sick and miserable and there's no way I can say no

to laying down with him when he's in that state... Even though it means

getting slobbered on.

Cornell does give out free flu shots for employees, which I get.

[Guest guest]

Hi all I´ve some question about the study design and in general. First are those ER rats CR or CRON rats, I think for CRON people to know wath is the food composition, because maybee there will be some important diferences in the % restriction for fats,proteins, and carbs, in terms of AA content, minerals and so on. The term undernutrition is not sinonimus of CRON isn´t ?. Regards

1GB gratis, Antivirus y Antispam Correo , el mejor correo web del mundo Abrí tu cuenta aquí

[Guest guest]

Hi all I´ve some question about the study design and in general. First are those ER rats CR or CRON rats, I think for CRON people to know wath is the food composition, because maybee there will be some important diferences in the % restriction for fats,proteins, and carbs, in terms of AA content, minerals and so on. The term undernutrition is not sinonimus of CRON isn´t ?. Regards

1GB gratis, Antivirus y Antispam Correo , el mejor correo web del mundo Abrí tu cuenta aquí

[Guest guest]

Hi Al:

But in their study, as I quoted from the verbal stuff appended to

FIGURE 1, none of the ad lib mice died despite losing a considerable

amount of body weight. By contrast, 100% of the ER mice died within

seven days, they believe because they had inadequate energy reserves

to survive until the T-cells could get to work.

== Hi Rodney.

Sure, but my point is that no statement is being made about " viral

immunity " , but to relative vulnerability to the toxic effects of the virus

in individuals that have been already infected - at least that's how I read

it. And that doesn't seem very surprising to me.

Al

[Guest guest]

Hi :

For the purposes of that study " ER " was defined as " undernutrition

without malnutrition " .

-------------------------

Here is a suggested way CRONistas might approach this 'influenza-

risk' issue. I will use my own data as an example.

Twice in my life I have been fairly seriously ill in hospital. Both

times staying three weeks, and in each case requiring two general

anaesthetic operations to complete the 'fix'. What was interesting

about these two episodes was that on both occasions I lost fifteen

pounds of weight in the first few days in hospital. (I was not

overweight at the time. Nor attempting CRON. BMI at the time, very

approxinmtely = 24. Nor were large parts of me removed during the

procedures. Indeed in one case stuff was added!). So I am going to

take that number, fifteen pounds, as the amount of spare energy

apparently required by me, to cope with a fairly nasty assault on my

well-being.

I will also take a BMI of 18·5 as my 'never-go-below' weight. This

is arbitrary, of course. In my case a BMI of 18·5 would mean a body

weight of 130·4 pounds. So if I was to want to start a bout of

influenza with at least fifteen pounds more than that, so that if I

were to lose fifteen pounds I would not drop below my never-go-below

weight, then I would need to weigh at least 145·4 pounds before

infection.

For me 145·4 pounds represents a BMI of 20·6. So, using a bunch of

arbitrary, but hopefully sensible, assumptions, and a touch of

rational argument, one could come to the conclusion that a BMI of

20·6 might be a sensible minimum BMI to aim for if it begins to look

like Avian Flu is evolving to become a widespread and serious issue

in humans.

I am currently three or four pounds over a BMI of 21, so I may have a

sufficient safety margin, if the above calculations make sense.

fwiw

Rodney.

>

> Hi all

> I´ve some question about the study design and in general. First

are those ER rats CR or CRON rats, I think for CRON people to know

wath is the food composition, because maybee there will be some

important diferences in the % restriction for fats,proteins, and

carbs, in terms of AA content, minerals and so on. The term

undernutrition is not sinonimus of CRON isn´t ?.

> Regards

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> 1GB gratis, Antivirus y Antispam

> Correo , el mejor correo web del mundo

> Abrí tu cuenta aquí

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Al:

What is it I am missing here? I don't see where you are coming from

on this(!).

Are they not saying that ER mice die when they get flu because they

do not have sufficient energy reserves to fight off the infection?

And are they not also saying that non-restricted mice survive because

they do have sufficient energy reserves?

And if so then may that not have (serious) consequences for ER (CRON)

humans in the case of flu infection?

From the study summary:

" Although the preponderance of evidence suggests that ER maintains

immune function at an advanced age, including in response to

immunization, more recent data clearly indicate impairment in the

immune function of aged ER mice after primary influenza infection.

This observation supports the notion that immunization can no longer

serve as the sole indicator of the immune response to viruses (12).

Further, if applicable to the human circumstance, these data have

clear implications for elderly individuals at high risk for reduced

energy intake resulting from social, physical, economic, and

emotional obstacles to eating (39). Infection is associated with both

an increase in energy demands and an anorexia that decreases energy

intake. Underweight, therefore, may contribute to a poor prognosis in

infection by exacerbating this energy deficit, thus negating the

spectrum of health benefits attributed to ER and the maintenance of a

low body weight. The potential consequences of underweight in

response to infection must be addressed in future proposals on the

therapeutic benefits of ER in humans (37,40) and in consideration of

the Comprehensive Assessment of Long-term Effects of Reducing Intake

of Energy (CALERIE), a series of human clinical trials initiated by

the National Institute on Aging in 2002. Immediate action is

warranted to determine the metabolic, physiologic, and immune changes

associated with ER that may affect the outcome to primary viral

infection. Future studies should evaluate the kinetics of innate and

cell-mediated immunity, viral clearance, and recovery in ER mice and

investigate the effects of refeeding before infection to delineate

the roles of weight and energy status on the immune response to

primary viral infection. "

Note particularly the: " Underweight, therefore, may contribute to a

poor prognosis in infection by exacerbating this energy deficit, thus

negating the spectrum of health benefits attributed to ER and the

maintenance of a low body weight " .

The " poor prognosis " to which they refer, was 100% mortality in the

case of their experimental CRON mice. Are you saying this is in some

way not materially significant?

I am perplexed. And would like to resolve that perplexity one way or

the other!

Rodney.

======================

Hi Al:

But in their study, as I quoted from the verbal stuff appended to

FIGURE 1, none of the ad lib mice died despite losing a considerable

amount of body weight. By contrast, 100% of the ER mice died within

seven days, they believe because they had inadequate energy reserves

to survive until the T-cells could get to work.

== Hi Rodney.

Sure, but my point is that no statement is being made about " viral

immunity " , but to relative vulnerability to the toxic effects of the

virus

in individuals that have been already infected - at least that's how

I read

it. And that doesn't seem very surprising to me.

Al

>

>

>

>

> Hi Al:

>

> But in their study, as I quoted from the verbal stuff appended to

> FIGURE 1, none of the ad lib mice died despite losing a considerable

> amount of body weight. By contrast, 100% of the ER mice died within

> seven days, they believe because they had inadequate energy reserves

> to survive until the T-cells could get to work.

>

> == Hi Rodney.

>

> Sure, but my point is that no statement is being made about " viral

> immunity " , but to relative vulnerability to the toxic effects of

the virus

> in individuals that have been already infected - at least that's

how I read

> it. And that doesn't seem very surprising to me.

>

> Al

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Rodney and All,

Personally speaking, I am prone to getting severe lower respiratory tract

infections

and some upper respiratory tract infections when I CR too extremely. With

adequate

calorie intakes, my infections in my upper respiratory tract are rare.

--- Rodney <perspect1111@...> wrote:

> Hi Al:

>

> What is it I am missing here? I don't see where you are coming from

> on this(!).

>

> Are they not saying that ER mice die when they get flu because they

> do not have sufficient energy reserves to fight off the infection?

> And are they not also saying that non-restricted mice survive because

> they do have sufficient energy reserves?

-- Al Pater, PhD; email: old542000@...

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> I am perplexed. And would like to resolve that perplexity one way or

> the other!

Hi Rodney. Sorry to be a pain in the butt.

All I'm saying is that the study refers to what happens *after* infection

has occurred, not to a prior susceptibility to infection.

So: it's conceivable that CRONistas could be more resistant to infection,

yet be more likely to die *if* they become infected.

Al