Hi

July 1, 2005

Good afternoon it you too..How ya are??? Kathy Boo

-- hi

good morning and have a wonderful day

Take care of yourself,

Liz

House of Whitehead

July 3, 2005

HI Betsy,

I am and have an 8 yo HFA son. Welcome to the board!!!

__________________________________________________

July 4, 2005

Welcome to the group Betsy!!

Where are you located?

Missy--SAHM/Student Again

I am who I am because that's who I am.

--- 6, Asperger's

All kids are gifted, some just open theirpackages earlier than others.

-- Carr

Hi

Hi Everyone,

I am new to the list. I have a 5 year old son with Autism. Hope to chat with everyone soon.

Thanks,

Betsy

Betsy Loiacono

Educational Advocate

PLSP IV

"In matters of style, swim with the current.

In matters of principle, stand like a rock."

July 4, 2005

I am located in Warner Robins.

Missy Feldhaus <itchy10@...> wrote:

Welcome to the group Betsy!!

Where are you located?

Missy--SAHM/Student Again

I am who I am because that's who I am.

--- 6, Asperger's

All kids are gifted, some just open theirpackages earlier than others.

-- Carr

Hi

Hi Everyone,

I am new to the list. I have a 5 year old son with Autism. Hope to chat with everyone soon.

Thanks,

Betsy

Betsy Loiacono

Educational Advocate

PLSP IV

"In matters of style, swim with the current.

In matters of principle, stand like a rock."

Betsy Loiacono

Educational Advocate

PLSP IV

"In matters of style, swim with the current.

In matters of principle, stand like a rock."

July 4, 2005

Hi Bestsy,

Welcome. My name is Dorthy. I have a 12 year old son with autism. We

live in ville. I'm mostly a lurker here. Have a happy 4th.

--- Betsy Loiacono <betsyloiacono@...> wrote:

> Hi Everyone,

>

> I am new to the list. I have a 5 year old son with Autism. Hope to

> chat with everyone soon.

>

> Thanks,

> Betsy

>

> Betsy Loiacono

>

> Educational Advocate

>

> PLSP IV

>

> " In matters of style, swim with the current.

>

> In matters of principle, stand like a rock. "

>

hugs,

Dorthy

Independent kitchen consultant with Pampered Chef

How may I help you?

demcconel@...

I love a child with autism. One in 166 children are diagnosed with autism. Need

a place to talk? autismcoffeebreak

__________________________________________________

July 5, 2005

Welcome,

Betsy. I'm new as well. :-) I have an 8 year old son (Autism, SID, CAPD, Food/Environmental Allergies, Hyperthyroidism) and 5 year old daughter. *waving to everyone*

...·´¨¨)) -:¦:-¸.·´ .·´¨¨))((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:--:¦:- ((¸¸.·´* Autism Awareness

<<In a message dated 7/3/2005 11:17:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, betsyloiacono@... writes:

Hi Everyone,

I am new to the list. I have a 5 year old son with Autism. Hope to chat with everyone soon.

Thanks,

Betsy>>

July 13, 2005

Tom,

Recently found evidence suggests that at times in human history there was more than one species of human existing along side each other. The most widely known example of this if the Neanderthal. They lived alongside modern humans for 10,000 years or more in an area ranging from Europe to what is today Isreal.

But there were other offshoot species as well. While I don't recall the names of them, there were at least 6 of them that lived alongside the primary strain of modern human ancestors. Those other branches could have failed for any number of reasons from disease, climate change or just plain having been outcompeted by the more dominant strains. I also don't see why scientists have such a hard time believing that our ancestors might have wiped out these other species. After all, our ancestors may well have wiped out many animal species. Add to that that we have evidence of homocides in human remains over 10,000 years old. Now, it makes perfect sense to me that if (proto)humans had hunting weapons that they might well use them against others of their own kind for many of the same reason we do today: fighting over resources, territory, women and revenge. I think they would have even fewer qualms against killing a near-human species, especially if it looked different and perhaps acted different.

It would have been interesting to see how some of those species might have developed. The last near-human aside from Neanderthal actually had a larger brain than we do. They died out many thousands of years ago, however. If their larger brains did make them relatively more intelligent, it would be interesting to see what might have become of them, particularly if they had a sheltered place to develop, like say the western hemisphere, had they been the only ones to cross into it during the last Ice Age. However, their numbers were probably small and that would make them easy pickings for the others.

I also agree that trying to direct human evolution could be a bad thing. This would especially be true if they began killing off people with simple and treatable disorders like AS. I can, however, see reason why certain genetic diseases should not be passed along: things like cystic-fibrosis, severe mental retardation and the like. But I think that should be handled by sterilization and not killing to person outright. After all, they are still human. Letting them live would also allow their conditions to be studied so that in future it might be possible to cure them, particularly in the case of cystic-fibrosis.

A neighbor and friend since childhood is mentally retarded. He has a job at a place that hires people like him to do simple work, but he is not capable of living alone. Shortly after he was born, his mother had him sterilized, which was probably a good call. There is no way he would be able to care for a child and there is the possibilty that he could pass along the retardation trait. However, he himself was not denied life and I would say is more productive a citizen than many "normal" people.

July 13, 2005

,

Have you left some of those other communities then?

At any rate, here are my feelings about the pro-cure movement. I

give you permission to use this statement:

" I think the pro-cure movement was started, and is being driven, by

ignorance.

" A disease or ailment MAY be cured. A disorder can only be re-ordered

(either through meds or surgery). Autism is either a disorder or an

irreversable genetic difference.

" And so, to be honest, the pro-cure movement scares me, because when

people realize through careful review of quantifiable scientificly

proven fact that there is not cure for autism, the next thing they

will want to do -rather than accept that there is nothing that can be

done about it- will be to erradicate it.

" The best way to do erradicate autism would be to develop a genetic

test that can find autism in unborn babies, and then to offer mothers

the same option currently offered to mothers of fetuses showing signs

of Down's Syndrome: Elective abortion.

" Setting aside the religious perspective, from a purely evolutionary

standpoint, excising autistics from the general population in this

manner cannot be good for humanity. Nature allows genetic offshoots

to appear from time to time, and sometimes those offshoots live

alongside of each other without interfering with one another. (Asian

and African elephants for example, whose populations were thought to

once live side by side somewhere in the Middle East.)

" Autistics on all levels of the spectrum can and do have important

roles to play in society, but because society (in general) has placed

less of a value on human life due to easy methods of disposition of

it (such as abortion) autistics don't stand much of a chance in

making it to the future.

" This worries me and scares me.

" From a purely religious standpoint, I regard the cure movement as an

affront to my religious sensibilites.

" The Bible says: Exd 4:11 " Who makes mouths? " the Lord asked

him. " Who makes people so they can speak or not speak, hear or not

hear, see or not see? Is it not I, the Lord? "

" This means that everyone is made they way they are because that was

how God made them. Try to change how someone is made and you are

going against the will of God.

" Lev 19:14 " Show your fear of God by treating the deaf with respect

and by not taking advantage of the blind. I am the Lord. "

" It is disrespectful to try to change another person because you

think they are made wrong. It is also disrespectful to kill them off

because they are not made like everyone else.

" So for me, the pro-cure movement is wrong both from an evolutionary

standpoint and from a religious standpoint. "

" If nature or God wants to " cure " us or kills us off, then it will

happen without humanity's doing. Any time humanity intercedes in

either perview, it usually only makes things worse, and if God

exists, I cannot possibly see how they can gather his favor is they

are changing something he created and intended to be a certain way.

Tom "

I'm trying to work on something more productive. This is the only

community I talk to.

I want to do an article about " feelings " of how the pro cure movement

makes you feel. You're welcome to respond at any length and I will

include most replies in the same subject area of the article. You

must say " I give you permission " at the top of your reply.

Reply about; " How the pro cure concept makes you feel "

Thanks,

July 13, 2005

Responding to something like this could take me a while - so I'll

probably write it elsewhere and then copy and paste it into these

boards.

I also have quite strong feelings about subject - so could be quite a

rant :-)

I'll try to get back to you on this one.

>

> I'm trying to work on something more productive. This is the only

community I talk to.

>

> I want to do an article about " feelings " of how the pro cure

movement makes you feel. You're welcome to respond at any length

and

I will include most replies in the same subject area of the article.

You must say " I give you permission " at the top of your reply.

>

> Reply about; " How the pro cure concept makes you feel "

>

> Thanks,

>

July 13, 2005

Ok thanks Tom and . If others want to respond please do. If you do not want it posted on this board for whatever reason please e-mail me at nathan@....

Keep the replies coming,,

Thanks,

greebohere <julie.stevenson16@...> wrote:

Responding to something like this could take me a while - so I'll probably write it elsewhere and then copy and paste it into these boards.I also have quite strong feelings about subject - so could be quite a rant :-)I'll try to get back to you on this one.> > > I'm trying to work on something more productive. This is the only community I talk to.> > > > I want to do an article about "feelings" of how the pro cure movement makes you feel. You're welcome to respond at any lengthand I will include most replies in the same subject area of the article. You must say "I give you permission " at the top of your reply.> > Reply about; "How the pro cure concept

makes you feel"> > Thanks,> > FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and acceptance. Everyone is valued. Don't forget, there are links to other FAM sites on the Links page in the folder marked "Other FAM Sites."

July 13, 2005

,

We have no way of knowing if bigger brains describe a more powerful

intelligence for sure, but let's say for the sake of argument that

these bigger brained folk WERE the more intelligent of the two.

I know that I was always bullied and beaten precisely because I was

the smarter one in the crowd, and I observed other " geeks "

and " nerds " also getting picked on quite often.

This would suggest that to people with lower intelligences, people

with high intelligence represent some sort of threat to them.

Perhaps the base and brutal survival instinct in people with lower

intelligence is more prominent in them to enable them to fight for

their right to survive in a world where intelligent people could

theoretically engineer or invent things to eliminate them.

Additionally, intelligent people could invent things or improvise to

ensure their own survival but unintelligent people may not be able

or as likely to do so.

Thus unintelligent people need the brawn to either take what they

need by force or to subjugate the intelligent people so that

intelligent people do not become the dominant class and extinguish

the unintelligent.

If people of lower intelligence DID INDEED wipe out a class of

people with higher intelligence in the past, in is worth remembering

because it could possibly be predictive or indicative of what could

happen now or in the future.

In an ideal world, both classes of people ought to survive alongside

each other provided both serve a complimentary function to the

environment and world population as a whole. But possibly what we

are seeing with the " Cure Autism Now " movement is a sort of low-key

and more gradual survival battle of one type of people against

another.

Tom

The last near-human aside from Neanderthal actually had a larger

brain than we do. They died out many thousands of years ago,

however. If their larger brains did make them relatively more

intelligent, it would be interesting to see what might have become

of them, particularly if they had a sheltered place to develop, like

say the western hemisphere, had they been the only ones to cross

into it during the last Ice Age. However, their numbers were

probably small and that would make them easy pickings for the

others.

July 15, 2005

>

> " It is disrespectful to try to change another person because you

> think they are made wrong. It is also disrespectful to kill them off

> because they are not made like everyone else.

>

Here, we can now make legal " advance statements " about how our wishes

should be dealt with if we are ever in the mental health system. Of

course, most people won't make such statements because they won't want

to indicate they ever could come into contact with the mental health

system.

I have used my statement, deposited with the health service, to state

that the AS community I associate with now, formally considers it

abusive that in my teenage a psychiatirc nurse said " I want us to get

you in here and change you. "

July 15, 2005

>

> " It is disrespectful to try to change another person because you

> think they are made wrong. It is also disrespectful to kill them off

> because they are not made like everyone else.

>

Here, we can now make legal " advance statements " about how our wishes

should be dealt with if we are ever in the mental health system. Of

course, most people won't make such statements because they won't want

to indicate they ever could come into contact with the mental health

system.

I have used my statement, deposited with the health service, to state

that the AS community I associate with now, formally considers it

abusive that in my teenage a psychiatirc nurse said " I want us to get

you in here and change you. "

July 15, 2005

" Here, we can now make legal " advance statements " about how our

wishes should be dealt with if we are ever in the mental health

system. "

This sounds interesting - where is here though? Is this in the UK?

>

> >

> > " It is disrespectful to try to change another person because you

> > think they are made wrong. It is also disrespectful to kill them

off

> > because they are not made like everyone else.

> >

>

> Here, we can now make legal " advance statements " about how our

wishes

> should be dealt with if we are ever in the mental health system. Of

> course, most people won't make such statements because they won't

want

> to indicate they ever could come into contact with the mental

health

> system.

>

> I have used my statement, deposited with the health service, to

state

> that the AS community I associate with now, formally considers it

> abusive that in my teenage a psychiatirc nurse said " I want us to

get

> you in here and change you. "

July 15, 2005

" Here, we can now make legal " advance statements " about how our

wishes should be dealt with if we are ever in the mental health

system. "

This sounds interesting - where is here though? Is this in the UK?

>

> >

> > " It is disrespectful to try to change another person because you

> > think they are made wrong. It is also disrespectful to kill them

off

> > because they are not made like everyone else.

> >

>

> Here, we can now make legal " advance statements " about how our

wishes

> should be dealt with if we are ever in the mental health system. Of

> course, most people won't make such statements because they won't

want

> to indicate they ever could come into contact with the mental

health

> system.

>

> I have used my statement, deposited with the health service, to

state

> that the AS community I associate with now, formally considers it

> abusive that in my teenage a psychiatirc nurse said " I want us to

get

> you in here and change you. "

July 16, 2005

Maurice,

This statement...

" I want us to get you in here and change you. "

....is absolutely appalling. Implicit in those few words are so many

negative connotations it nearly pains me to think about it.

I don't think that wasn't a psychiatirc nurse you visited. That was

an auto-mechanic. Thing was, she was trying to change people's

psychologies instead of automobile tires.

Tom

>

> " It is disrespectful to try to change another person because you

> think they are made wrong. It is also disrespectful to kill them off

> because they are not made like everyone else.

>

Here, we can now make legal " advance statements " about how our wishes

should be dealt with if we are ever in the mental health system. Of

course, most people won't make such statements because they won't want

to indicate they ever could come into contact with the mental health

system.

I have used my statement, deposited with the health service, to state

that the AS community I associate with now, formally considers it

abusive that in my teenage a psychiatirc nurse said " I want us to get

you in here and change you. "

July 16, 2005

In a message dated 7/16/2005 3:22:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, cennis007@... writes:

Exactly on all counts. Aspergers is only a disability in competition with a dominant group that sets the rules according to their own ways.

If you create a group of aspergers individuals who then set the rules and introduce an NT amongst it then who would have the 'Disorder'

Evan

Evan,

That is a good point. I can give you hint as to what would happen based on my recent experience. For 18 months I was taking a series of courses to get a Business degree. The class was broken up into study groups of 4 or 5 people each. My first group was 4 people. One guy in the group was very NT and tried to lead the group but wasn't very good at it. There developed something of a power struggle between the two of us and eventually I won. Once the other two paid more attention to me than him, the group worked much more smoothly and our projects became better. Eventually he had to drop the course because his job transferred him out of the area.

The other guy in my group also had to transfer out after a time and we got a new member from one of the other groups, making it three people in my group. At the end of the course, that fellow told me that my group was the smoothest running group with the fewest conflicts of any group he had been in (he had also been in the Associates degree program, also 18 months and he had been in several different groups.)

I think there was a simple reason for that. By watching the team members, I knew their strengths and weakness. Therefore it was a simple matter of dividing up group work by giving assignments to those who could to it best. As for planning, I would generally put down an outline and ask for input. Good ideas were added and changes made without any offense taken by me. The others were free to offer their ideas, and they often had good ones. To be fair, however, I did sometimes deliberately have flaws in my plans to let them catch them and speak up as a means to keep them sharp and let them know I wouldn't bite them if they spoke up.

It was actually very easy to run the group. Each of us would choose the part of the presentation we wanted to do and do our own work on it. The written material and such had to be ready ahead of time of course, but what we said was up to us. We would do a little critique afterwords, but we all learned fast and by the end, we were voted as having the consitently best presentations.

Why the others had conflicts I didn't understand. Well, I do really. One of the other groups had two very NT people. By that I mean they were a little arrogant and stubborn, so it was no surprise they had trouble. The other group had a real dictator running it: it was her way or the highway. I would actually get miffed at my group because of how readily they accepted my plans sometimes. They said my plans were always good, for which I thanked them, but would push them for creative input too.

I think had we gotten one of the UberNTs from the other groups, we would have had a rough time just like in the beginning. I was willing to allow that first fellow leadership of the group, but he couldn't handle it and I can't stand that. That is why we had that power struggle. If we had had a competant leader, I would have been a good follower.

Anyway, my point is I ran my group by rather AS rules. There is a definite leader because there had to be one. However, the others were perfectly free to speak their mind and help design the projects. If one of us needed help, the others would gladly lend it if we could, even if it was just moral support as was the case with me when the others were having math trouble. We kept one of our number from dropping a math heavy class he was having trouble with and he ended up passing though he was sure he would fail. Two people from the other groups did drop out and they seemed to have been given little support from their groups.

My group also never had any social tension. The others accepted me as the leader because I could handle the job, and none of the others were willing to take the responsibility: the presentations and group worked reflected most strongly on the group leader since they were supposed to have directed it. Whenever there was tension building, I would call a break or let the group lapse into some small talk and jokes to defuse it. When it looked safe to continue I would get everone back on course. The other groups I saw would end up arguing and fussing over a problem and everyone ended up angry with nothing getting done.

As I have said, we also had compromise. Ideas were judged on their merits. If it worked I didn't care who came up with it. It they had a good idea that required changing earlier plans, so be it, as long as the final product was improved.

Well, I've rambled a bit but I hope I made my point.

July 16, 2005

Using a firearm is also best done outside for ease of cleanup for those who find you.

This is not to say I support suicide, I don't. I see it really as being the ultimate admission to the world that it has won, that it has beaten you. I've been beaten down by society all my life but I'm still here and I'm better off through my efforts than those who so bullied me in the past.

I might consider suicide if the only other option was a slow painful death from a horrible disease, but even then I'd try to hold out as long as I could. My survival instincts are quite strong and I'm sure would get in the way.

July 16, 2005

In a message dated 7/16/2005 3:55:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, globalmerchantorg@... writes:

The N.T terminology seems weird because I do not know anyone else really besides me let alone another person with A.S. So to define me as A.S in relation to the rest of the world or most of it as N.T just seems odd.

I can understand your confusion. I don't fully understand the NT designation either. When I say it I use it to mean anyone who is not AS, which is a lot of people. There is also a lot of variation in the NT classification, so I don't use NT itself as a perjurative. When I mean the type of NT who exemplifies bad NT traits, I will call them Uber NTs. The rest are just plain NTs, meaning people who don't have AS.

July 16, 2005

Tom,environmental1st2003 <no_reply > wrote:

,"I think the pro-cure movement was started, and is being driven, by ignorance.

I think has been started by self loathing and non-accceptance.

"A disease or ailment MAY be cured. A disorder can only be re-ordered (either through meds or surgery). Autism is either a disorder or an irreversable genetic difference.

Exactly.

"And so, to be honest, the pro-cure movement scares me, because when people realize through careful review of quantifiable scientificly proven fact that there is not cure for autism, the next thing they will want to do -rather than accept that there is nothing that can be done about it- will be to erradicate it. Elective abortion."From a purely religious standpoint, I regard the cure movement as an affront to my religious sensibilites.

As an athiest I find it offensive due to assumption that not being autistic is superior.

"So for me, the pro-cure movement is wrong both from an evolutionary standpoint and from a religious standpoint."Tom"Exactly on all counts. Aspergers is only a disability in competition with a dominant group that sets the rules according to their own ways.

If you create a group of aspergers individuals who then set the rules and introduce an NT amongst it then who would have the 'Disorder'

Evan

Start your day with - make it your home page

July 16, 2005

,

Subject to Autism being a genetic condition then the only 'cure' would be self elimination,

This is probably best achieved by either heavy calibre handgun if you can access one and administered in a secluded location to avoid offending anybody or by weighting oneself down with sufficient weights and jumping into water of sufficient depth to drown. There are many other techniques that one can cure themselves by BUT I actually ENJOY being AS and look forward to every day. Life is full of wonder that I can see things clearer than the general population by pattern recognition. My sight and feel is much keener than others and I dont need company that others crave constantly.

Cure would mean I would accept injustices because the person or the crowd next to me does or aquiesces in the injustice.

Cure would mean I could not concentrate the way I do.

Cure insists that I have to adopt viewpoints that are not my own and therefore could not defend adequately.

If every other aspie was 'cured' then I really would be on my own.

Evan

natronpc <globalmerchantorg@...> wrote:

I'm trying to work on something more productive. This is the only community I talk to.

I want to do an article about "feelings" of how the pro cure movement makes you feel. You’re welcome to respond at any length and I will include most replies in the same subject area of the article. You must say "I give you permission " at the top of your reply.

Reply about; "How the pro cure concept makes you feel"

Thanks,

FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and acceptance. Everyone is valued. Don't forget, there are links to other FAM sites on the Links page in the folder marked "Other FAM Sites."

Start your day with - make it your home page

July 16, 2005

The N.T terminology seems weird because I do not know anyone else really besides me let alone another person with A.S. So to define me as A.S in relation to the rest of the world or most of it as N.T just seems odd.VISIGOTH@... wrote: