Preservatives

[Guest guest]

>My

>current interest is in creams and lotions, so Germall Plus works for my

>needs.

Hello Pat,

How much Germall Plus would be required per 350ml base.

Aromatically,

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[Guest guest]

> Instead of people getting wrapped up in what method of preservation they're

> going to use, perhaps a better approach would be to push the idea that if

> you're selling lotions (or other cosmetic products) then do it responsibly.

>

> Have your products tested. If you aren't testing your products, then they

> are

> no safer (and may actually be more harmful) than the products made by people

> using no preservation method.

>

>

>

>

>

Hi Melody,

I agree with you on this. What form of testing do you think is adequate? Do

we have to pay a lab for every batch of cream we make?

I have been using a testing kit from Snowdrift farms to test my lotions and

creams (which I'm still afraid to sell to the general public) I only give

these products to people I know will discontinue their use if anything shows

up in my test tubes. I primarily make these products because I don't want

to use what may be possible carcinogens (chemical preservatives) on my skin.

Carol

Changing Woman Essence

Flower Essence consultations

www.changingwomanessence.com

[Guest guest]

Great post and I agree. If you DON'T know because you haven't tested, aren't a

chemist with enough background and equipment, you probably are in more danger of

harming yourself and others . Dee Dreamspinner

preservatives

<<who would " want to put a

> product that has the potential to injure into the hands of an

> unsuspecting customer? "

>>

Pat,

Finally, something we agree on ;-)

Which is worse and likely to get your pants sued off in a court of law?

a) A company making a natural product and telling their customers to throw

any

unused product out after 7 days (expiration date).

A company using natural preservatives (let's not debate whether they are

or

not because even I'm not sure) such as GSE, ROE, essential oils, and telling

their customers the shelf-life is several months to a year (without proving

this by lab testing).

c) A company using Germaban or Germall (or other commercial preservative) as

their preservative and not testing the product for toxicity or effectiveness

of

the product.

My guess is that Companies B and C will likely lose their businesses with C

possibly being charged with criminal negligence if they poison someone.

Company A is not using any toxic chemicals and is clearly stating that the

product expires within 7 days.

Contrary to what some may think, I am not against using commercial

preservatives if your intent is to get longer than a week out of your lotions.

What I *am* against is using them irresponsibly. There are people making

lotions in their home, adding whatever their supplier said was the recommended

dose of Germaban or Germall and then blithely selling these things to their

customers who have no clue what risks they're taking by using this untested

product which contains a toxic chemical.

Also, if I read the FDA requirements correctly, these people still haven't met

the FDA's requirements because they still don't know if they are using a

concentration that is appropriate and compatible with *their* specific

formulation (meaning it's actually preserving and/or also not at toxic

levels).

At this point I'd say the person doing natural cosmetics has less of a chance

of harming their customers because at least they are very aware that their

products have a short shelf-life. The majority of people using Germaban

(based

on conversations I've seen on various lists) think they can slap 1-5% Germaban

into their product and it's good to go for a year or so. That, to me, is at

least as scary as people using natural methods and telling their customers

their product is good " until they see visible mold " .

Instead of people getting wrapped up in what method of preservation they're

going to use, perhaps a better approach would be to push the idea that if

you're selling lotions (or other cosmetic products) then do it responsibly.

Have your products tested. If you aren't testing your products, then they are

no safer (and may actually be more harmful) than the products made by people

using no preservation method.

Melody

Rainbow Meadow Inc.T

http://www.rainbowmeadow.com

Check out our new FO's

[Guest guest]

>From: Melody <melody@...>

>egroups

>

>Which is worse and likely to get your pants sued off in a court of law?

>a) A company making a natural product and telling their customers to throw

>any

>unused product out after 7 days (expiration date).

> A company using natural preservatives (let's not debate whether they

>are or

>not because even I'm not sure) such as GSE, ROE, essential oils, and

>telling

>their customers the shelf-life is several months to a year (without proving

>this by lab testing).

>c) A company using Germaban or Germall (or other commercial preservative)

>as

>their preservative and not testing the product for toxicity or

>effectiveness of

>the product.

>

>My guess is that Companies B and C will likely lose their businesses with C

>possibly being charged with criminal negligence if they poison someone.

Based on probability, companies A and B will have the highest incidence of

contamination with pathogenic microorganisms. The products sold by

companies A and B would not pass a microbial challenge test.

Company C, based on my experience, would have the highest probability of

preventing their product from growing microorganisms and passing a microbial

challenge test.

When used at the recommended levels, things like Germaben II, Germall Plus,

Phenonip, Pheneoxyethanol, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, etc are consider

non-toxic based on testing used to determine toxicity. The important

phrase in the previous sentence is " when used as directed. All chemicals

can be used or abused.

>Company A is not using any toxic chemicals and is clearly stating that the

>product expires within 7 days.

As soon as Company A sells their product with no preservative, they loose

control of their of that product. The product can be subjected to all

sorts of microbial insults and must be able to withstand each attack.

>Contrary to what some may think, I am not against using commercial

>preservatives if your intent is to get longer than a week out of your

>lotions.

>What I *am* against is using them irresponsibly. There are people making

>lotions in their home, adding whatever their supplier said was the

>recommended

>dose of Germaban or Germall and then blithely selling these things to their

>customers who have no clue what risks they're taking by using this untested

>product which contains a toxic chemical.

When used as directed, commercial preservative systems are non-toxic. This

is known based on scientific tests used to determine toxicity. Many

chemicals, which would include preservatives, will elicit an allergic

response from a certain segment of the population. But that doesn't mean

they are toxic.

>Also, if I read the FDA requirements correctly, these people still haven't

>met

>the FDA's requirements because they still don't know if they are using a

>concentration that is appropriate and compatible with *their* specific

>formulation (meaning it's actually preserving and/or also not at toxic

>levels).

You are correct when you say that personal care products should be tested to

confirm the integrity of their preservative system. But when used as

directed, commercial preservative systems are non-toxic.

At this point I'd say the person doing natural cosmetics has less of a

chance

>of harming their customers because at least they are very aware that their

>products have a short shelf-life.

I disagree for easons cited above. You have not control of your product

after it is sold. What guarantee do you have that the product in question

will be thrown out after the expiration date? How many lists members throw

out their eye makeup after the expiration date?

Quoting from the FDA's website on " Expiration Dating "

http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/cos-207.html

The shelf life for eye-area cosmetics is more limited than for other

products. Because of repeated microbial exposure during use by the consumer

and the risk of eye infections, some industry experts recommend replacing

mascara 3 months after purchase. If mascara becomes dry, discard it. Do not

add water or, even worse, saliva to moisten it, because that will introduce

bacteria into the product. If you have an eye infection, consult a physician

immediately, stop using all eye-area cosmetics, and discard those you were

using when the infection occurred.

Among other cosmetics that are likely to have an unusually short shelf life

are certain " all natural " products that may contain plant-derived substances

conducive to microbial growth. It also is important for consumers and

manufacturers to consider the increased risk of contamination in products

that contain non-traditional preservatives, or no preservatives at all.

>The majority of people using Germaban (based

>on conversations I've seen on various lists) think they can slap 1-5%

>Germaban

>into their product and it's good to go for a year or so. That, to me, is

>at

>least as scary as people using natural methods and telling their customers

>their product is good " until they see visible mold " .

Quoting from the manufacturers website

http://www.ispcorp.com/products/hairskin/preserve/pres1.html

Germaben II is recommended to be used at a level of up to 1.0%. This level

provides to the product: 0.30% Germall II, 0.11% methylparaben, 0.03%

propylparaben and 0.56% propylene glycol. Shampoos and liquid soaps

generally require less than 1.0% Germaben II. Although Germaben II provides

excellent antimicrobial preservation, every developed or modified product

should be challenge tested to assure preservative efficacy.

Using Germaben II above 1% is not recommended.

>Instead of people getting wrapped up in what method of preservation they're

>going to use, perhaps a better approach would be to push the idea that if

>you're selling lotions (or other cosmetic products) then do it responsibly.

>Have your products tested. If you aren't testing your products, then they

>are

>no safer (and may actually be more harmful) than the products made by

>people

>using no preservation method.

If Cosmetic Good Manufacturing Practice Guidelines were followed, then you

are probably correct for fresh, unopened product. But an unpreserved

product is potentially more harmful than a preserved product.

Quoting from the FDA's Cosmetic Good Manufacturing Practice Guidelines

http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/cos-gmp.html

Fresh as well as retained samples of finished products are tested for

adequacy of preservation against microbial contamination which may occur

user reasonably foreseeable condition of storage and consumer use.

Maurice

________________________________________________________________________________\

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[Guest guest]

>From: cmradley@...

>I agree with you on this. What form of testing do you think is adequate?

>Do

>we have to pay a lab for every batch of cream we make?

To determine the efficacy of your preservative system, you should subject

your formulas to a microbial challenge test. The USP or the CTFA methods

are two methods that are used by many companies.

> I have been using a testing kit from Snowdrift farms to test my lotions

>and

>creams (which I'm still afraid to sell to the general public) I only give

>these products to people I know will discontinue their use if anything

>shows

>up in my test tubes.

This is a wise decision.

>I primarily make these products because I don't want

>to use what may be possible carcinogens (chemical preservatives) on my

>skin.

>

What chemical preservatives are " possible carcinogens " ? Do you have any

data to support this inflammatory allegation or is it just willful thinking?

There are more carcinogens in the bacon and eggs you had for breakfast,

the hotdog you had for lunch or the charbroiled steak that you had for

dinner.

Maurice

________________________________________________________________________________\

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[Guest guest]

> From: Melody <melody@...>

> Pat,

> Finally, something we agree on ;-)

I hope this isn't the only thing we agree on as I mostly quote the rules

that govern our industry.

> Which is worse and likely to get your pants sued off in a court of law?

I hate those types of questions Melody. It makes me feel like I am back in

school taking a test. I wouldn't mind it if I got my youth back as well:-)

> a) A company making a natural product and telling their customers to

throw any

> unused product out after 7 days (expiration date).

What testing have you done to prove the product will be good for 7 days? How

do you know the product isn't contaminated when it leaves the manufacturer.

The absence of mold is not an indication that the product is not

contaminated.

> A company using natural preservatives (let's not debate whether they

are or

> not because even I'm not sure) such as GSE, ROE, essential oils, and

telling

> their customers the shelf-life is several months to a year (without

proving

> this by lab testing).

I am not aware of any proof that exists that would suggest that any natural

product is effective against microbial contamination, without the addition

of a synthetic preservative.

> c) A company using Germaban or Germall (or other commercial preservative)

as

> their preservative and not testing the product for toxicity or

effectiveness of

> the product.

If used according to manufacturers specifications, it should preserve

without being toxic.

> My guess is that Companies B and C will likely lose their businesses with

C

> possibly being charged with criminal negligence if they poison someone.

> Company A is not using any toxic chemicals and is clearly stating that the

> product expires within 7 days.

I disagree for the reasons stated above. I think company C has a much better

chance of surviving a court case.

> Contrary to what some may think, I am not against using commercial

> preservatives if your intent is to get longer than a week out of your

lotions.

> What I *am* against is using them irresponsibly.

I don't think any of us would disagree with you on your last point.

There are people making

> lotions in their home, adding whatever their supplier said was the

recommended

> dose of Germaban or Germall and then blithely selling these things to

their

> customers who have no clue what risks they're taking by using this

untested

> product which contains a toxic chemical.

At the recommended levels it is not toxic. Anything, including water, can be

toxic if not used properly. You and the other resellers have a

responsibility to give out accurate information if you are going to sell

chemicals. Your customers also have a responsibility to use the product as

it was intended to be used.

> Also, if I read the FDA requirements correctly, these people still haven't

met

> the FDA's requirements because they still don't know if they are using a

> concentration that is appropriate and compatible with *their* specific

> formulation (meaning it's actually preserving and/or also not at toxic

levels).

This is a catch 22 type question. If I make a normal lotion and use a

preservative at the recommended level, I can be relatively sure that I am

meeting the FDA guideline. The guideline says that I should put out a safe

product and that I should have documentation to support this. There is no

requirement that I must produce this documentation from tests that I have

had done myself, I can use manufacturers documentation as long as I follow

their recommendations. Now, if I want to introduce Aloe that I have scraped

from my plant into my formula, I am dealing with a whole new ball of wax. In

a situation like that, I am definitely getting away from what the

preservative manufacturer had in mind, and I would definitely need a

challenge test to support that my product was indeed safe.

> At this point I'd say the person doing natural cosmetics has less of a

chance

> of harming their customers because at least they are very aware that their

> products have a short shelf-life.

The problem with this way of thinking is that you don't know. It could be

10,7,5, days, or it could be 5 minutes.

The majority of people using Germaban (based

> on conversations I've seen on various lists) think they can slap 1-5%

Germaban

> into their product and it's good to go for a year or so. That, to me, is

at

> least as scary as people using natural methods and telling their customers

> their product is good " until they see visible mold " .

Where are they getting this information, certainly not from the

manufacturer? I have said on this and other lists that the most important

tool that you can have is a good scale that, at a minimum, can read to 0.1

gram and that all of your formulas should be converted to grams. Adding

chemicals of any sort is not an area for guesswork, it is an area where you

need accuracy. I use Germall Plus and the recommended level is up to 0.2%.

On a 1,000 gram batch this is only 2 grams which is less that 1/14th of an

ounce. You simply can't weigh it accurately unless you are dealing in grams.

> Instead of people getting wrapped up in what method of preservation

they're

> going to use, perhaps a better approach would be to push the idea that if

> you're selling lotions (or other cosmetic products) then do it

responsibly.

Doing it responsibility means putting your customers well-being before your

own desires and wants, and staying within the guidelines of the FDA. I don't

see any way of doing this without using preservatives.

> Have your products tested. If you aren't testing your products, then they

are

> no safer (and may actually be more harmful) than the products made by

people

> using no preservation method.

Having your products tested is the best approach. We should clarify that

means challenge tested in a lab and not with a home kit, as some people may

confuse what we are referring to.

Pat.

Peace, Joy, Serenity.

www.houseofscents.com

Cosmeticinfo

[Guest guest]

<<I disagree for easons cited above. You have not control of your product

after it is sold. What guarantee do you have that the product in question

will be thrown out after the expiration date? How many lists members throw

out their eye makeup after the expiration date?

>>

You're right.....and because of the preservatives there's no visible growth of

bacteria to worn the consumer that the product is actually growing unseen

nasties and they're falsely secure in their belief that " it looks and smells ok

and contains preservatives so it must be ok to use " . At least with an

expiration date on natural lotions, most of them will actually start showing

visible signs of mold growth which will prompt the customer to throw it out.

Does it have unseen nasties too? Maybe....but so does that chemically

preserved product that isn't thrown out (i.e. mascara).

If we sold only those things that we knew were going to be used in a safe and

correct manner (throwing things out on their expiration date), the entire

cosmetic industry would be out of business and we've even have to quite selling

soap. Most of these soaps are marked external use only but that sure hasn't

stopped many parents from washing their kids mouth out with it. Should we stop

selling soap because the customer may use it improperly?

We can go round and round on this issue but I'm always going to come back to

the same argument. Whether you are going the all natural route and using no

preservatives....or using a commercial preservative....if you aren't doing the

lab testing on it, then you're operating on faith. Not a good basis for a

debate....or selling a product.

I think the idea of lab testing should be promoted by the chemists just as

strongly as they're promoting the idea of commercial preservatives.

Just a note about your comments of 1% being safe. The reason I put 1-5% was

because on several lists on the internet I've seen people talking about adding

3% or 5% " just to be on the safe side " since they weren't testing.

Melody

Rainbow Meadow Inc.™

http://www.rainbowmeadow.com

Check out our new FO's

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/12/01 8:44:21 AM Pacific Standard Time,

thymeless1@... writes:

> I know of two natural preservatives that you can use.

> One is pourable benzoin, and the second is Vitamin E.

>

>

Benzoin is not an appropriate ingredient to use---for one it can be a

sensitizer and two there are other choice of preservatives that are more

effective against mold and bacteria. Vitamin E is not a preservative, but

rather an antioxident and some people will even question it's effectiveness

for that.

Angie

[Guest guest]

Hi Sydney. No, there isn't a truly effective natural preservative.

> Hi all,

> Does anyone know if there is a natural preservative that is

effective against bacterial growth in lip balms, body butters and

bath oils?

Sydney

Moonpigge

[Guest guest]

Who sells Paraben or Methylparaben?

Re: Preservatives

Hi Sydney. No, there isn't a truly effective natural preservative.

> Hi all,

> Does anyone know if there is a natural preservative that is

effective against bacterial growth in lip balms, body butters and

bath oils?

Sydney

Moonpigge

[Guest guest]

Hi Sydney,

I have been exactly where you are now in the past. It

was an exciting and yet scary time. We decided to grow

and it turned out very well for us.

I know of two natural preservatives that you can use.

One is pourable benzoin, and the second is Vitamin E.

Best wishes,

Another Thyme

> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 10:10:37 -0800

> From: " Sydney " <SydneyS@...>

> Subject: Preservatives?

>

> Hi Listmembers,

> I have been making " all natural " products for the

> past five years now and my customers have become

> accustomed to them. I use only essential oils, no

> synthetic colors and no preservatives. I have not

> been able to make, except for my own personal use,

> lotions or creams because I don't use preservatives.

>

> Anyway, I really need some input here....our little

> home business is growing and I have been selling a

> lot of product. I sell salts, body wash, soap, body

> butters, salt glow, bath & body oils, etc. I know

> that I have been taking a risk and it is beginning

> to worry me because we are about to expand even

> more. I want to use something that will inhibit the

> growth of bacteria. I wish there was a preservative

> that I could call " natural " , but I know that natural

> preservatives do not work!

>

> Please give me some guidance here. I would

> appreciate any help that I can get.

>

> Thanks in advance,

> Sydney

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi, Vitamin E is not a preservative, it's an antioxidant which is a

completely different thing. it won't stop the growth of either molds

or bacteria but it will help to prevent rancidity. Benzoin is not

bad at preventing mold growth but it isnt' good against many

bacteria. Also, it tends to cause allergic reactions.

> I know of two natural preservatives that you can use.

> One is pourable benzoin, and the second is Vitamin E.

> Best wishes,

> Another Thyme

Moonpig

[Guest guest]

Hi Cheryl,

If you are making a body butter and not a lotion or cream that has water or

other liquid as part of the ingredients, you do not need to use a preservative.

However, if you do use water as a part of the product, bacteria, mold etc. will

grow and rather quickly. You must use a preservative or keep it refrigerated

and discard after a few weeks (say 2).

As far as a " natural " preservative goes, there aren't really any. There are

" natural " anti-oxidants that will help to stabilize your oils that would

otherwise become rancid quickly (oils like sweet almond, grapeseed, hemp and

others).

The two anti-oxidants I am familiar with are vit E (mixed tocopherals, T-50),

and ROE (which stands for Rosemary Oleoresin Extract).

I hope this helps you some,

: )

PS: welcome to the group! where are you located?

deerwoman50 wrote:

> I saw this question somewhere but never saw an answer. Using

> Gremaben,

> how much do i add to my creams and lotions? Is there a natural

> preservative I can use instead?

> Also, do you all

> sterilize your jars before putting you products in them? I am making

> my first body butter today and needed to know these things. Thanks.

> Cheryl

-- Ehrhardt

Body & Soap

***coming soon***

www.bodyandsoap.com

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/7/2004 7:59:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

meihee@... writes:

For you lotion makers out there, which preservative do you use and

why? Does it make a huge difference which on you use? I'm trying

to buy some supplies and I don't know what to pick.

~~~~~~~~~~~

I use Germall Plus because that's what was recommended to me. :-). I do

have Germaben II also, which is in a liquid form, so it's easier to measure if

you don't have a scale that weighs in small enough increments. Phenonip or it's

twin, LiquaPar Optima, is dissolvable in oil and at higher temps., so it's

good for a mostly oil formulation. I don't use it in lotion, but would in

shower scrubs and in hair conditioner.

HTH,

Beth

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/8/2004 7:50:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

meihee@... writes:

What about Germaben IIE? So does it really matter which one I use?

Germall Plus or Germaben??

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Assuming you don't export your products, I think they all work well, although

I haven't tried Germaben IIE. Whichever one you're more comfortable with, I

think, is fine. If you make goat's milk lotion, however, you will probably

need to use it at its highest usage rate and boost it with another, supplemental

preservative, such as potassium sorbate. I'm not really familiar with this,

though, so I can't say more on the topic.

HTH,

Beth

[Guest guest]

What about Germaben IIE? So does it really matter which one I use?

Germall Plus or Germaben??

[Guest guest]

Not to keep this thing hanging on, but when making just a plain HP or

CP soap, with nothing other than FOs or EOs, is a preservative needed?

I can see where some of the herbs may require preservatives, does this

count for dried ones as well?

Thanks