Preservatives

[Guest guest]

I, too, would be interested in this information. Especially preservatives

for hand cremes and body butters.

Thanks-

Beth in Louisville

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/29/99 11:00:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, EAKLOU@...

writes:

<< I, too, would be interested in this information. & nbsp; Especially

preservatives

for hand cremes and body butters.

Thanks- >>

Could you send me info too. Thanks!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/29/1999 11:46:59 AM US Eastern Standard Time,

ftaylor@... writes:

<< I do use Vitamin E but I also use Potassium Sorbate and Gum Benzoin. I feel

comfortable with them. >>

Just wondering how much and how to use these products in say an 8 oz. bottle?

TIA!

Heidi the Hippie

In Indianapolis...Home of the Colts and Pacers!

" Open your eyes look within. Are you satisfied with the life you are living? "

Bob Marley, PEACE

[Guest guest]

>I am about to try to make lotions and creams again and would like everyones

opinion on Grapefruit seed extract, vitamin E >and Germaben II.

Hi All,

I do use Vitamin E but I also use Potassium Sorbate and Gum Benzoin. I feel

comfortable with them. I have heard gum benzoin may cause some irritation,

but I use all my creams and lotions on myself and since I have very

sensitive skin and have not been bothered by it (plus no one I have given

them to has had a problem) I think they are probably ok. If someone has

proof of a better combination please, please let me know!!

Blessings,

Ozark Becky

[Guest guest]

<< I, too, would be interested in this information. & nbsp; Especially

preservatives

for hand cremes and body butters.

Thanks- >>

>Could you send me info too. Thanks!

I was just wondering about this too, and would also be grateful for this

info.

Celeste

[Guest guest]

I use Gemaben II and have no trouble with it. I have never seen a fuzzy

growing or a rancid smell even with some lotions that i had made this past

spring.

Shaye

The Soap Shack

http://www.mysoapshack.com

[Guest guest]

I use low alpha tocepherols at 2% of final product volume as an

antioxidant, to prevent oil rancidity. (They are a form of Vitamin E).

I won't use benzoin in any application which comes in contact with the

skin, because it is such a potent sensitizer. I do, however, use it in

powdered form to anchor the scent in closet sachets and potpourri.

- Ela

(000)___(000) Ela Heyn

/ @ @ \ ferret@...

| |

======@====== http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/5483

[Guest guest]

Hey guys,

Do you have to add a preservative to M & P soap if you add only oils to the

base? I thought preservatives were only needed in items that contained water

(ie lotions, body mists, that sort of thing). If I am wrong, please let me

know. thanks in advance,

lynn

[Guest guest]

Hello Lynn,

You are correct in your assumption that unless a finished product contains

water, there is no need to add an anti-bacterial/anti-fungal (preservative).

Fixed oils are prone to rancidity through oxidation. To prevent this, we

recommend the use of an anti-oxidant, such as Vit E., which has an added

benefit to the skin, or ROE, which is far more stable than Vit E., and all

natural as well.

Cheers,

Trina Wallace

--

Quality Doesn't Have to Cost a Fortune!

Snowdrift Farm Handcrafter's Supply

http://www.snowdriftfarm.com

Hey guys,

Do you have to add a preservative to M & P soap if you add only oils to the

base? I thought preservatives were only needed in items that contained

water

(ie lotions, body mists, that sort of thing). If I am wrong, please let me

know. thanks in advance,

lynn

[Guest guest]

Hi Judy,

You only need a preservative (anti0-bacterial/anti-fungal) if water is

present in the finished product. As CP soap, M & P soap, lotion bars,lip balm,

bath salts, bath bombs, etc have NO water present in the finished product,

there is no need for a preservative.

When water is present, such as in a lotion or creme or bath gel, etc., then

there is a need for a preservative.

FMI on this subject, please refer to

http://www.snowdriftfarm.com./askthechemist.html

For fixed oils, use an anti-oxidant to prevent rancidity. This prevents

oxygen from destroying your precious carrier oils.

Cheers,

Trina Wallace

--

Quality Doesn't Have to Cost a Fortune!

Snowdrift Farm Handcrafter's Supply

http://www.snowdriftfarm.com

Judy asked:

From: " judyann " <JudyAnn@...>

Subject: Preservatives

Okay. I am seriously corn-fused. Lotion bars are like lotion, but they do

not contain water. What about preservatives for lotion bars - not needed

because no water? What does the FDA say about lotion bars? I tried looking

this up myself, but I am seriously search-challenged.

How about bath salts? Like lotion? No water, so preservatives not

necessary? If I add almond or jojoba oil, do I need an antioxidant? Maybe

I'm in the wrong hobby (ai, ai, ai), or should have taken up chemistry -

might be easier.

[Guest guest]

I am enclosing an email that I got on another list (last Year) from a

cosmetic chemist, talking about preservatives. For those of you that have

belonged to this list for any length of time, you will recognize the author

as Ken Klein. None of the 4 chemists on that list recognize Aubrey's views

on preservation as valid.

----------------

There has been a great deal written on this topic in the last few weeks. And

we are lucky to have one of the world's experts on preservation on this list

(Dave, certainly not me). I will spend the next few minutes giving some of

my

thoughts on the subject. My apologies to those of you on this list who have

heard this ad nauseum.

If it has water it must be preserved! It really is that simple. There are

several issues to address when talking about preservation:

1. Making a product that is free from bacterial contamination is obviously

very important. Usually this is not possible. There have been some cases

where

the manufacturer manufactures a product under aseptic conditions and uses

water that is absolutely free from bacteria. Many of the pharmaceutical

companies do this. I know that J & J manufacturers KY Jelly this way.

Biersdorf

has manufactured Nivea (a water-in-oil emulsion) without preservative for

many

years but have recently started to put preservative in it. W/O emulsions are

less prone to bacterial attack and they used very clean conditions and

specialized manufacturing techniques that none of us could ever hope to

duplicate. They, it is rumored still used some EO's that had some limited

preservative activity and the product was packaged in a was not to allow for

consumer contamination. While I'm sure that everybody on this list endeavors

to make their products under the cleanest conditions possible and use the

best

ingredients (I'm not sure what the word best really means) possible...how

really free from microbes is your water. I absolutely guarantee it is not

free

from microbial entities! Our gut is able to cope with most of these without

problem. But combine them with other materials and place them in a jar and

leave the jar in a nice warm dark place and the bacteria just dance with joy

and multiply. And jus imagine what happens when the consumer sticks their

fingers into the jar to get some of your product. Oh...I made a mistake and

took too much cream, let me put some back into the jar! Buggies, buggies,

buggies! Also keep in mind that just because your cream looks good and

doesn't

seem to be turning color or becoming off odor or changing in any way doesn't

mean there isn't a real safety problem regarding microbial content.

2. Bacterial contamination can come from many sources water is one of them

(probably the most important one) but not the only one. While many of you

may

not like to hear this, in my experience (34 years of formulating toiletries

products), it is most often the materials that are described as natural that

are the source of microbiological problems. Proteins, gums (thickeners),

extracts, herbals are among the worst culprits. I'm certainly not saying

they

shouldn't be used...only saying be aware of the potential for problems.

3. There has been much said about the antimicrobial activity of ROE and GSE,

myrrh, etc. I won't comment on the validity of what was said, since I can't

speak from personal experience, but I can say that while they may have some

activity in this area, I don't believe they can ADEQUATELY preserve a

system.

Adequately is the key word. If used in a product that does not contain any

microbes (not really possible for most of us) and packaged in a container

that

does not allow for the consumer to reinnoculate the product and the product

doesn't contain anything that might inactivate the natural preservative,

then

maybe they would work. It sounds like a maybes and ifs here.

4. Also understand the difference between the bacteriostatic and

bacteriocidal. Bacteriostatic: the product is free from microbes and the

preservative will keep it that way.

Bacteriocidal: The product may have started out clean but somehow bugs have

been introduced and the preservative is able to kill these intruders.

A good preservative will perform both of these functions...and be able to do

so for the entire lifetime of the product, which may have multiple

recontaminations. This is not an easy assignment for the most potent of

" chemical " preservatives under the best of conditions.

5. Just because some (natural) materials have antimicrobial activity in some

tests or systems, in no way indicates their functionality in your product.

5A. There are many many things that can inhibit the function of a

preservative:

Metal ions, ethoxylated emulsifiers (emulsifying wax, polysorbate 20, to

name

just two), high temperature, extremes in pH, high levels of gums (xanthan,

cellulose, etc.), high levels of protein, etc.

A final word from this soapbox chemist:

I am sure that all of the folks on this list want to make and sell the best

and safest product possible. Many of you feel that using natural materials

is

the best way to accomplish this. I have no disagreement with this at all!

But

remember the medical edict told to all medical students: " first, do

no harm "

With respect to making and selling cosmetics and toiletries products this is

particularly appropriate.

Respectfully written....

Ken

Pat.

Peace, Joy, Serenity

House of Scents tm. Body Oils, Fragrance Oils, Incense, Candles, Soap, Etc.

achil@...

http://houseofscents.safeshopper.com/

[Guest guest]

Pat, thanks for the good info. but, then what kind of preservatives

are good to use? What are the names? Is there a realistic way

for a home-based business to make a safe lotion? Help please!

I think there are a lot of people on this list that would really like

the scoop on making a good safe lotion, soooo anyone out there

with any info. at all please fill us in. How do you folks sell your

lotions safely?

Thanks so much,

Cyan

[Guest guest]

Thanks to all that answered my question about

Preservatives. Appreciate the combined knowledge we

have going here.

~

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I have been working with a handcream recipe for the past 3 years and feel

it is ready for a larger market,but to do this it will need to be properly

preserved to extend the shelf life.

SO I'm looking for a supplier of such a preservative that is based in Canada.

Would anyone on this list that is so engaged please contact me privately so

we can do some business?Thank You, Lynn

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

----

Lynn Hasson,Lanes End Farm & Fiber, borough,On,Can K9H 1M5

Willow Furniture, Mohair,Wool,Handspun Socks,

Natural Hemp Skincare Products

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/10/00 9:09:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

sunsoap@... writes:

<< How are your batch records maintained.

2]Do you retain a container of product out of each batch

3] How do you determine the shelf life of your products?

4}] What do your benchmark studies indicated in both a freezing and heated

environment, have you documented them..

5] have you found a way to insure the integrity of your products when placed

in these extreme environments....is the viscosity consistent at months 1 and

three?

6] have you had your product at a minimum for contamination, micro-organisms

i.e., seudemonis (pardon spelling) staph germs...and many others. When you

see a problem it is in epidemic proportions.

7] For those of you using well waters or high chemical waters in your

manufacture, what have you done to insure the bacteria in it is neutralized.

When was the last time your well was checked for coliform bacteria....certain

levels of coliform (a form of e-coli) a permissible in drinking water but

consider what you just added to your product....

>>

Hi Pam,

Thanks for the words of wisdom and food for thought! How does the FDA look

upon small businesses like myself that are just starting out and " manufactor "

their products in their kitchen. I keep clean conditions and use practices

that are probably comparable to or maybe two steps above canning

procedures---but I don't have an autoclave for my utensils--I just boil

them---I have cabinets dedicated to business products and supplies----but I

certainly don't have a lab-type setting---would that be a big no-no? In

time, I will probably expand to another facility, but for now it is the

kitchen--is this a big problem? Also, as far as contamination of

products---I am convinced that preservatives are a necessity and use them at

the recommended percentage and trust that microbes are under control. Do you

recommend that we go the next step and have each batch tested at a lab to

make sure? For the tiny business, this is expensive, but I am thinking that

if any liability issue ever came up it would be good insurance. Lots of

things to think about and any thoughts are appreciated.

Angie

[Guest guest]

> Hi Pam,

> Thanks for the words of wisdom and food for thought! How does the FDA look

> upon small businesses like myself that are just starting out and " manufactor "

> their products in their kitchen. I keep clean conditions and use practices

> that are probably comparable to or maybe two steps above canning

> procedures---but I don't have an autoclave for my utensils--I just boil

> them---I have cabinets dedicated to business products and supplies----but I

> certainly don't have a lab-type setting---would that be a big no-no? In

> time, I will probably expand to another facility, but for now it is the

> kitchen--is this a big problem? Also, as far as contamination of

> products---I am convinced that preservatives are a necessity and use them at

> the recommended percentage and trust that microbes are under control. Do you

> recommend that we go the next step and have each batch tested at a lab to

> make sure? For the tiny business, this is expensive, but I am thinking that

> if any liability issue ever came up it would be good insurance. Lots of

> things to think about and any thoughts are appreciated.

> Angie

Whoever is able to answer this, please do not just respond privately. I'd be

very interested to know as well. I'm just starting out and building my

inventory before I begin selling at craft shows and small gift shops. For

me, it's just a hobby as I work full time. I operate in my kitchen as well.

I have a separate space for my utensils and ingredients, but everything else

is just so small time, I couldn't afford to get each batch tested. At least

not yet. Mainly I'm making soap, but I also wanted to sell lotions, and

other bath goodies. Any help is appreciated.

Thanks,

[Guest guest]

Hiya....salt has been used as a preservative for years....I dont add anything

to mine and never had a problem.....vitamin E sounds like a skin bonus to me

will add that next time China

<snip>

> I'm making bath scrubs and add vitamin E oil to my mixture. I know that is

> a natural preservative. Should I be adding something else to this?

--

----<--<@ ----<--<@

The Soapery

Handcrafted Castile Soaps

[Guest guest]

At 10:26 AM 10/17/00 -0400, you wrote:

>Hiya....salt has been used as a preservative for years....I dont add anything

>to mine and never had a problem.....vitamin E sounds like a skin bonus to me

>will add that next time China

>

><snip>

>

> > I'm making bath scrubs and add vitamin E oil to my mixture. I know that is

> > a natural preservative. Should I be adding something else to this?

>

>--

>----<--<@ ----<--<@

>The Soapery

>Handcrafted Castile Soaps

Salt was used to help dehydrate meats and things that are dried- it's the

moisture that causes rotting/bacteria problems, and people using a bath

scrub will put their wet paws into it, introducing more moisture and

growing ickies - I believe that's the scientific term

Vitamin e isn't a preservative, it's an antioxidant. It doesn't inhibit

bacteria, just slows the oils in a salt-glow product from going

rancid. Not stop it totally mind you, just slow it down. A preservative

would still be required, that's why I don't do these yet (I don't have one

on hand).

As much as some love to think GSE and ROE and vitamin E are all you need- I

can tell you firsthand- it's not. I've seen products turn hideous. I have

a lotion I loved, and was going to reverse-engineer turn so ugly on me that

I keep it as a " Gee, wonder how bad it will get " kind of experiment. It

grows more evil daily. Yuck I would hate to have a customer go to

pump lotion a few months from now, and get a green furry glob, and swamp

water for their trouble.

Eyyew. The results of not using one is that the salt glow will begin to go

moldy after one use. I'm more grossed out by not using a preservation

system of some kind and I'm a natural-bath-stuff kinda gal.

hth

Tamara Zyganiuk

www.spellboundbotanicals.com

July 1 Issue of " The Spellbinder " is Online NOW

Coming soon: " Spellbound Botanicals " E-store

[Guest guest]

>From: China <chinachi@...>

>Hiya....salt has been used as a preservative for years....I dont add

>anything

>to mine and never had a problem.....vitamin E sounds like a skin bonus to

>me

>will add that next time China

How do you know that you've never had a problem? Your salt scrub can look

and smell fine and your product could be grossly contaminated.

The Vitamin E is a good antioxidant, It is not a preservative. I assume

you salt scrub is formulated without water, so in theory, you should not

need a preservative. But in reality, it's reasonable to expect that the

consumer will intoduce a small amount of water and a number of different

microorganisms into your product when he or she is using the salt scrub at

home.

Therefore, it would be prudent to add a preservative system to your salt

scrub.

Lucy

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/18/00 7:59:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

angel_noir@... writes:

<< Therefore, it would be prudent to add a preservative system to your salt

scrub.

>>

ok.. my germaben II says to not use it in any mixture over 30% oil. The salt

glow/salt scrub recipes I've seen are all oil and salt.. no water. Which

preservative would be possible, if not germaben II??

Thanks in advance,

Lynne in Vermont

[Guest guest]

>From: Rishie@...

>In a message dated 10/18/00 7:59:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

>angel_noir@... writes:

>

><< Therefore, it would be prudent to add a preservative system to your salt

> scrub.

> >>

>

>ok.. my germaben II says to not use it in any mixture over 30% oil. The

>salt

>glow/salt scrub recipes I've seen are all oil and salt.. no water. Which

>preservative would be possible, if not germaben II??

>

Hello Lynne in Vermont!

I guess the trees have begun to loose their beautiful colors and it must be

raking time. The rushing sounds of the leaves, the crystal clear, blue

skies of Autumn and the beautiful collage of color on the drive way are just

some of my vision of a Fall day in Vermont.

But enough of memories; on to the more mundane; the matter at hand.

The salt scrubs we are discussing, as I have assumed, are anhydrous when

they are manufactured. Anhydrous means, " free of water " . So the

preservative Germaben II must be oil soluble if its going to be of any help.

But we know that Germaben II is really a mixture of olidinyl Urea,

Methylparaben and Propylparaben dissolve in Propylene Glycol.

Going to the ISP/Sutton website

http://www.ispcorp.com/products/hairskin/preserve/pres1.html

we see that olidinyl Urea has poor solubility in oils. So Germall II

would not be the best preservative choice and, I have to believe that, the

Propylene Glycol and scrubbing oil would make a mess.

What we need are some oil soluble preservatives. I would consider using a

blend of Isopropylparaben, Isobutylparaben and Butylparaben. The makers of

Germall II also sell " LiquaPar Oil " . The ISP/Sutton website states that

" LiquaPar Oil is an active blend of parabens, useful in a wide range of

cosmetic formulations including anhydrous systems. LiquaPar Oil effectively

preserves most products when used at concentrations of 0.3-0.6%. "

Lucy

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[Guest guest]

>From: " Amy " <amyriggs@...>

>It seems to me, that you would have much more salts than oils. I think in

>total weight, you would have less than 30% oils.

I would think that the amount of oil used in a salt scub on the partical

size of your salt crystals. I would guess that you would have at least 55%

to 60% oil.

But thats a guess based on some old experiements.

Lucy

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[Guest guest]

It seems to me, that you would have much more salts than oils. I think in

total weight, you would have less than 30% oils.

Amy

Re: preservatives

In a message dated 10/18/00 7:59:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

angel_noir@... writes:

<< Therefore, it would be prudent to add a preservative system to your salt

scrub.

>>

ok.. my germaben II says to not use it in any mixture over 30% oil. The

salt

glow/salt scrub recipes I've seen are all oil and salt.. no water. Which

preservative would be possible, if not germaben II??

Thanks in advance,

Lynne in Vermont

[Guest guest]

At 11:30 PM 10/30/00 +0000, you wrote:

>Now, my question is am I doing something wrong? Am I

>supposed to be adding preservatives to me soap. and if so, what would a good

>preservative be.

nothing at all.... pure soap needs no preservatives.

if you superfat heavily you might think about adding an antioxident to

your oils, a lot of experienced soapers do...

but preservative? nope!

Your source for superb Essential Oils, Aromatherapy

Accessories, Information, Books and more!

Visit us at: <http://www.naturesgift.com>

[Guest guest]

> From: intothemistic@...

> could someone please explain the difference between germall ,germall

> plus, germall II, germaben and germaben II and methylparaben how they

> work and how effective they are as preservatives i would really

> appreciate the info dolores

Dolores, there is no preservative currently named germall. There is a

Germall 115 that is used in liquid and powder type formulations. Then there

is Germall ll that is used in shampoos and hair conditioners. Sutton's

newest preservative is Germall Plus, used in creams, lotions, etc. There is

no Germaben. There is Gemaben ll and Germaben llE. The latter is

specifically made for creams and lotions. All of the above are manufactured

by Sutton and I believe the methylparabens are made by several companies. My

current interest is in creams and lotions, so Germall Plus works for my

needs.

Pat.

Peace, Joy, Serenity

House of Scents tm. Body Oils, Fragrance Oils, Incense, Candles, Soap, Etc.

achil@...

http://houseofscents.safeshopper.com/

www.yourhealthandbody.com