RE: What went well and what didn't with surgery?

[Guest guest]

Mine hurt the same way & the same place after surgery. However, it's been 2

years and I'd have to say that it's better now (possibly from lack of use). I

do take big doses of Glucosamine & Chondroitin every day. I can walk farther

than 2 years ago, and even run until my lungs give out (pretty soon). However,

if I do something that requires major knee-bending, like hike through brush, Cp

pain will kick in pretty fast. I can do everything I need to do in the gym

w/knee tape and have begun experimenting doing it w/o knee tape. I seem to be

able to do the treadmill & Stairmaster (small steps -- it can still be aerobic)

w/o tape, but not the elliptical. I haven't tried leg extensions w/o tape

because my PT told me a better VMO exercise is -- well, I'll have to describe

it: stand with bad foot on a thick phone book or a low Step, whatever the

height is that you can manage. Step down backwards w/other foot, then back up.

Best if good foot rests on floor for a second. Make sure bad knee doesn't turn

in. Should be right over toes (but allowing for parallax, it looks like it's

outside the toes). I haven't done this enough to test my kneecap with it.

Ann

So it's clear to me that surgery has been a mixed bag with people here. For

those of you who didn't have good results, did it hurt in the same way and same

place after surgery? Or did the original pain go away but a new type of pain

start?

Also I have to say after hearing the experiences of many of you I feel really

lucky to have regained as much of my life back as I have. I especially feel for

those of you that have had the doctor say things like " your getting old, what do

you expect? " I'm 47 and I still hope to ski marathons: first I hope to just get

past the knee problems, and second, when I'm seventy I still want to be a

citizen racer.

Clearly the people here haven't given up and that is really encouraging.

[Guest guest]

I am a 44 male. I went to the OS with a severe catch in my knee.

Sometimes it hurt to the point that I could not touch my foot to the

ground, but most times it was not a problem at all. The catch was

occurring with more frequency all the time.

I was diagnosed with a torn meniscus and had surgery on 10/26/05.

During surgery, it was found that I did not have a torn meniscus at

all. I had a lateral release performed along with plica resection

and chondroplasty of the patella joint. He said I had severe

chondromalacia of the trochlea. (grade 3 to 4)

After surgery:

At first, I made a lot of progress. I could even go up the stairs

with little trouble and down a few steps. Then it started going down

hill. Now, I have pain all the time. It is very different from the

pain before. This more of a dull pain. I cannot go up or down

stairs at all. Normal activity is not possible for the most part.

Sports are totally out of the question. (And I really want to play

golf with my son who is now on the high school golf team)

I have extreme trouble strengthening my quad because of the pain

doing the exercises. At this point it is painful to straighten my

leg while sitting on a chair. I have made myself put on a 2.5 pound

weight and straighten the leg while sitting. Then I hold the leg

straight and very slowly let it down. I usually pay for this by late

afternoon, but it is the only way I can get that dang quad to work.

I go back in to the OS on the 20th and we will see where to go from

here.

Would I do it again:

I only went to on doc before the work was done. He has a very good

reputation. I should have gotten a second opinion. I have a friend

who has had two total knee replacements. He recommended the Fondren

Orthopedic clinic. They are more specialized and Dr. Fain was the

Houston Oilers team physician from 1985 to 1995. If I need further

work, I will try to get in to see one of the doctors at the Fondren

Orthopedic Clinic. At least for a second opinion. You only have the

two knees, so in hind sight, you want to be SURE before you have work

done.

Don In Houston

[Guest guest]

BTW - I wish I was 44 but I am actually 49.

Don in Houston

>

> I am a 44 male. I went to the OS with a severe catch in my

knee.

> Sometimes it hurt to the point that I could not touch my foot to

the

> ground, but most times it was not a problem at all. The catch was

> occurring with more frequency all the time.

>

> I was diagnosed with a torn meniscus and had surgery on 10/26/05.

> During surgery, it was found that I did not have a torn meniscus at

> all. I had a lateral release performed along with plica resection

> and chondroplasty of the patella joint. He said I had severe

> chondromalacia of the trochlea. (grade 3 to 4)

>

> After surgery:

> At first, I made a lot of progress. I could even go up the stairs

> with little trouble and down a few steps. Then it started going

down

> hill. Now, I have pain all the time. It is very different from

the

> pain before. This more of a dull pain. I cannot go up or down

> stairs at all. Normal activity is not possible for the most part.

> Sports are totally out of the question. (And I really want to play

> golf with my son who is now on the high school golf team)

>

> I have extreme trouble strengthening my quad because of the pain

> doing the exercises. At this point it is painful to straighten my

> leg while sitting on a chair. I have made myself put on a 2.5

pound

> weight and straighten the leg while sitting. Then I hold the leg

> straight and very slowly let it down. I usually pay for this by

late

> afternoon, but it is the only way I can get that dang quad to work.

>

> I go back in to the OS on the 20th and we will see where to go from

> here.

>

> Would I do it again:

> I only went to on doc before the work was done. He has a very good

> reputation. I should have gotten a second opinion. I have a

friend

> who has had two total knee replacements. He recommended the

Fondren

> Orthopedic clinic. They are more specialized and Dr. Fain was the

> Houston Oilers team physician from 1985 to 1995. If I need further

> work, I will try to get in to see one of the doctors at the Fondren

> Orthopedic Clinic. At least for a second opinion. You only have

the

> two knees, so in hind sight, you want to be SURE before you have

work

> done.

>

> Don In Houston

>

[Guest guest]

Re: What went well and what didn't with

surgery?

At least for a second opinion. You only have the

> two knees, so in hind sight, you want to be SURE before you have work

> done.

I agree. I went to seven different orthopedic doctors including one at Mayo

and one on the west coast at Oregon Health and Science University before I

let one touch my knees. I was pretty shook up, because every doctor seemed

to have a different opinion. I finally made a choice when the two doctors I

trusted the most seemed to have opinions that corresponded the closest. I

was very impressed with Dr. Dennis Crawford at OHSU, but ultimately he

wasn't even one who operated on my knees. I did have a former colleague of

his that he recommended do my third and fourth surgeries. That doctor was

about 130 miles from me instead of 1000. Dr. Crawford was very

conservative, yet wasn't afraid to do surgery either.

Mike

MT

[Guest guest]

Re: What went well and what didn't with

surgery?

> BTW - I wish I was 44 but I am actually 49.

Nice to meet you. I am 50 . I had my first surgery two years ago.

Sounds like you " might " be a candidate for a partial knee replacement (if

you actually have a grade 3 or 4 CP), but go with the opinion of the doctor

you trust the most.

Mike

MT

[Guest guest]

>

> Nice to meet you. I am 50 . I had my first surgery two years ago.

> Sounds like you " might " be a candidate for a partial knee replacement

(if

> you actually have a grade 3 or 4 CP), but go with the opinion of the

doctor

> you trust the most.

>

> Mike

> MT

>

Hi Mike. I really hope I can put off a TKR. But at 6 month post op

from the Lateral release, I know something isn't right. Just a matter

of taking my time to explore ALL the options.

Later

Don

[Guest guest]

Philip,

In answer to your question: I had a torn meniscus that only gave me

trouble when I ran. Doc told me he would " clean " up the tear and I

would be good as new. I was never able to fully strengthen my quad

after surgery. As a result, my good leg took over and developed lots of

problems in that leg. Also, the remaining cartilage in my " bad " knee

softened up because of lack of use. I am left with 2 bad knees. One

has almost no cartilage remaining. I never ran again after surgery 3

years ago. I stopped going to surgeons and started going to massage

therapists and PTs, who seem to know much more about healing. I have

had much improvement, but will NEVER be back to " good as new. "

Folks on this list serve can berate me all they want, but I stand by my

suggestion to use surgery as an ABSOLUTE last result after you have

dedicated yourself to an aggressive stretching and strengthening program

for at least 6 months!!!

p.s. My doc was supposed to be the best in Ohio.

Seeing beyond money (sm)

What went well and what didn't with

surgery?

So it's clear to me that surgery has been a mixed bag with people here.

For those of you who didn't have good results, did it hurt in the same

way and same place after surgery? Or did the original pain go away but a

new type of pain start?

Also I have to say after hearing the experiences of many of you I feel

really lucky to have regained as much of my life back as I have. I

especially feel for those of you that have had the doctor say things

like " your getting old, what do you expect? " I'm 47 and I still hope to

ski marathons: first I hope to just get past the knee problems, and

second, when I'm seventy I still want to be a citizen racer.

Clearly the people here haven't given up and that is really encouraging.

[Guest guest]

Don-

PLEASE contact me before you see Dr. Fain at Fondren Orthopedic Clinic. I was a

patient of his (grade 4 chondromalacia and I'm *only* HA! 37) for 6 years before

I finally realized I was wasting my time. I have an EXCELLENT OS now and am

sorry that I didn't see him sooner.

-le (also in houston) rlamphere@...

Re: What went well and what didn't with

surgery?

I am a 44 male. I went to the OS with a severe catch in my knee.

Sometimes it hurt to the point that I could not touch my foot to the

ground, but most times it was not a problem at all. The catch was

occurring with more frequency all the time.

I was diagnosed with a torn meniscus and had surgery on 10/26/05.

During surgery, it was found that I did not have a torn meniscus at

all. I had a lateral release performed along with plica resection

and chondroplasty of the patella joint. He said I had severe

chondromalacia of the trochlea. (grade 3 to 4)

After surgery:

At first, I made a lot of progress. I could even go up the stairs

with little trouble and down a few steps. Then it started going down

hill. Now, I have pain all the time. It is very different from the

pain before. This more of a dull pain. I cannot go up or down

stairs at all. Normal activity is not possible for the most part.

Sports are totally out of the question. (And I really want to play

golf with my son who is now on the high school golf team)

I have extreme trouble strengthening my quad because of the pain

doing the exercises. At this point it is painful to straighten my

leg while sitting on a chair. I have made myself put on a 2.5 pound

weight and straighten the leg while sitting. Then I hold the leg

straight and very slowly let it down. I usually pay for this by late

afternoon, but it is the only way I can get that dang quad to work.

I go back in to the OS on the 20th and we will see where to go from

here.

Would I do it again:

I only went to on doc before the work was done. He has a very good

reputation. I should have gotten a second opinion. I have a friend

who has had two total knee replacements. He recommended the Fondren

Orthopedic clinic. They are more specialized and Dr. Fain was the

Houston Oilers team physician from 1985 to 1995. If I need further

work, I will try to get in to see one of the doctors at the Fondren

Orthopedic Clinic. At least for a second opinion. You only have the

two knees, so in hind sight, you want to be SURE before you have work

done.

Don In Houston

[Guest guest]

Philip:

Thought I'd chime in with my few cents worth...

I had a lateral release done a year ago last December. My surgery was

a success - the lateral did what it was supposed to do - realign my

kneecap. What it didn't do, however was alleviate the inflammation

and it became out of control. I'm scheduled for a patellar/femoral

resurfacing next month. So here's hoping I have success with this

surgery too!

Kim

[Guest guest]

Kim,

Your situation sounds a lot like mine. I would strongly suggest some type

of compression wrap (TED, Ace, Tubigrip) for a few weeks before surgery.

Very cheap, and you might even be able to avoid further surgery. Pain

relief without surgery is the ultimate solution IMO.

Mike

MT

Re: What went well and what didn't with

surgery?

> Philip:

>

> Thought I'd chime in with my few cents worth...

>

> I had a lateral release done a year ago last December. My surgery was

> a success - the lateral did what it was supposed to do - realign my

> kneecap. What it didn't do, however was alleviate the inflammation

> and it became out of control. I'm scheduled for a patellar/femoral

> resurfacing next month. So here's hoping I have success with this

> surgery too!

>

> Kim

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Have you tried using McConnell tape? It's the only way I can do leg extensions

or anything that requires that I bend my knee much.

Ann

Re: What went well and what didn't with

surgery?

I am a 44 male. I went to the OS with a severe catch in my knee.

Sometimes it hurt to the point that I could not touch my foot to the

ground, but most times it was not a problem at all. The catch was

occurring with more frequency all the time.

I was diagnosed with a torn meniscus and had surgery on 10/26/05.

During surgery, it was found that I did not have a torn meniscus at

all. I had a lateral release performed along with plica resection

and chondroplasty of the patella joint. He said I had severe

chondromalacia of the trochlea. (grade 3 to 4)

After surgery:

At first, I made a lot of progress. I could even go up the stairs

with little trouble and down a few steps. Then it started going down

hill. Now, I have pain all the time. It is very different from the

pain before. This more of a dull pain. I cannot go up or down

stairs at all. Normal activity is not possible for the most part.

Sports are totally out of the question. (And I really want to play

golf with my son who is now on the high school golf team)

I have extreme trouble strengthening my quad because of the pain

doing the exercises. At this point it is painful to straighten my

leg while sitting on a chair. I have made myself put on a 2.5 pound

weight and straighten the leg while sitting. Then I hold the leg

straight and very slowly let it down. I usually pay for this by late

afternoon, but it is the only way I can get that dang quad to work.

I go back in to the OS on the 20th and we will see where to go from

here.

Would I do it again:

I only went to on doc before the work was done. He has a very good

reputation. I should have gotten a second opinion. I have a friend

who has had two total knee replacements. He recommended the Fondren

Orthopedic clinic. They are more specialized and Dr. Fain was the

Houston Oilers team physician from 1985 to 1995. If I need further

work, I will try to get in to see one of the doctors at the Fondren

Orthopedic Clinic. At least for a second opinion. You only have the

two knees, so in hind sight, you want to be SURE before you have work

done.

Don In Houston

[Guest guest]

At least for a second opinion. You only have the

> two knees, so in hind sight, you want to be SURE before you have work

> done.

I agree. I went to seven different orthopedic doctors including one at Mayo

and one on the west coast at Oregon Health and Science University before I

let one touch my knees. I was pretty shook up, because every doctor seemed

to have a different opinion.

Yes, I find this extremely frustrating. Not only does that happen with

predictive regularity, but even one doctor will give me a different diagnosis

the next time I see him or her. What the hell are we supposed to make of

that?????

Ann

[Guest guest]

> Folks on this list serve can berate me all they want, but I stand by my

> suggestion to use surgery as an ABSOLUTE last result after you have

> dedicated yourself to an aggressive stretching and strengthening program

> for at least 6 months!!!

Seems like that is the consensus. I wonder about the stretching and

strengthening though. I assumed the same thing as my whole episode began and

started yoga (again). It was awful because so many of the poses required such

deep knee bends, even when unweighted. As I started to think about what is going

on, I realized that in order to stretch the quad in any way, you have to put

pressure on your pattella. To stretch hamstrngs, you have to agressively

straighten out your leg. The goal of stretching those muscles would be longer

muscles which seems like it would leave less pressure on the femur when the leg

is unweighted, but as my doctor pointed out, when it's weighted it won't matter

how much stretching you have done: you will have three times your body weight on

the pattella. Perhaps careful stretching and strengthening makes mroe sense when

your problem is in how the pattella tracks in the groove?

Does stretching and strengthening help with the crunch noise I get when I walk,

particularly down stairs? For those of you that have had that crunch noise

before you had surgery, did it go away after your surgery?

I'm also curious how many of you have tried some sort of skating activity? For

this has been roller skiing and skate skiing. It would include roller blading

and ice skating I think. At my worst stage last summer I could barely walk, but

was able to roller ski without much pain if stayed off hills. As the fall

progressed I was able to do more and more, but was still limited (and am still

limited) by how much climbing I could do. But it was a lot better than doing

nothing ;-) My theory is that with skating you have no impact, you have less

weight directly centered on your pattella and you don't have to have such an

agressive knee bend to propel yourself.

[Guest guest]

> Mine hurt the same way & the same place after surgery. However, it's been 2

years and I'd have to say that it's better now (possibly from lack of

> use). I do take big doses of Glucosamine & Chondroitin every day. I can walk

farther than 2 years ago, and even run until my lungs give out

> (pretty soon). However, if I do something that requires major knee-bending,

like hike through brush, Cp pain will kick in pretty fast. I can do

> everything I need to do in the gym w/knee tape and have begun experimenting

doing it w/o knee tape. I seem to be able to do the treadmill &

> Stairmaster (small steps -- it can still be aerobic) w/o tape, but not the

elliptical. I haven't tried leg extensions w/o tape because my PT told me a

> better VMO exercise is -- well, I'll have to describe it: stand with bad foot

on a thick phone book or a low Step, whatever the height is that you can

> manage. Step down backwards w/other foot, then back up. Best if good foot

rests on floor for a second. Make sure bad knee doesn't turn

> in. Should be right over toes (but allowing for parallax, it looks like it's

outside the toes). I haven't done this enough to test my kneecap with it.

That's a very common nordic skier exercise we call step ups. Typically we do it

with our toes turned outward a little as they would be during skating. It's

important to not turn your knee in because that would make your ski run on edge

instead of flat, a racing no no ;-) Also, you have a choice to bend a the ankle

more than the knee and I think the ankle bend style is easier on the knee and is

better for skating too. I've tried them gingerly but there was too much weight

on the knee so I stopped. That was on a stair step, but your idea of doing it

with a smaller elevation, a phone book in your case, sounds pretty good. When

skating up a hill, as long as it's not to steep, you can always accomplish the

same thing by taking shorter steps.

[Guest guest]

> Yes, I find this extremely frustrating. Not only does that happen with

predictive regularity, but even one doctor will give me a different diagnosis

the

> next time I see him or her. What the hell are we supposed to make of

that?????

> Ann

I have a friend who is trying to drive the consumer driven health care

initiatives here in Wisconsin. Not having feedback and information about a

doctor's success is critical to making it all work. Of course almost nobody has

it. He himself went through a hip replacement and documented his journey of

trying to find the best doctor and to compare prices as well. Both were a real

challenge.

A group like this is really helpful though if you have enough people from your

area. Anybody from Wisconsin with good results?

[Guest guest]

> Philip:

>

> Thought I'd chime in with my few cents worth...

> I had a lateral release done a year ago last December. My surgery was

> a success - the lateral did what it was supposed to do - realign my

> kneecap. What it didn't do, however was alleviate the inflammation

> and it became out of control. I'm scheduled for a patellar/femoral

> resurfacing next month. So here's hoping I have success with this

> surgery too!

Good luck! My doctor had talked about inflammation too and pointed out where the

nerve endings that actually caused the pain were. It seems like inflamation is

the major cause of pain from what I'm reading here, but I'm not sure about that.

I've been lucky with ibuprofen for my pain.

[Guest guest]

Re: What went well and what didn't with

surgery?

>> Folks on this list serve can berate me all they want, but I stand by my

>> suggestion to use surgery as an ABSOLUTE last result after you have

>> dedicated yourself to an aggressive stretching and strengthening program

>> for at least 6 months!!!

>

> Seems like that is the consensus. I wonder about the stretching and

> strengthening though. I assumed the same thing as my whole episode began

> and started yoga (again). It was awful because so many of the poses

> required such deep knee bends, even when unweighted. As I started to think

> about what is going on, I realized that in order to stretch the quad in

> any way, you have to put pressure on your pattella.

That's not true. Any PT who understands the problem also knows in extreme

cases, only do exercises that put NO pressure on the patella. Here is a

good site from Dr. Crawford;

http://www.ohsu.edu/academic/som/orthopaedics/dc_knee.htm

To stretch hamstrngs, you have to agressively straighten out your leg. The

goal of stretching those muscles would be longer muscles which seems like it

would leave less pressure on the femur when the leg is unweighted, but as my

doctor pointed out, when it's weighted it won't matter how much stretching

you have done: you will have three times your body weight on the pattella.

This is true, however my attaching soft tissue became so tight (at least

partly from inflammation?) that I couldn't even sit anymore. A LR gave a

level of immediate pain relief I hadn't had in some time. Maybe if I had

been doing the appropriate stretching earlier on?? The first doctors I saw

misdiagnosed my problem as osteoarthritis. Every doctor I saw agreed my

patella tracked almost perfectly.

Perhaps careful stretching and strengthening makes mroe sense when your

problem is in how the pattella tracks in the groove?

>

> Does stretching and strengthening help with the crunch noise I get when I

> walk, particularly down stairs? For those of you that have had that crunch

> noise before you had surgery, did it go away after your surgery?

The crunch in my knees actually seemed to increase somewhat after surgery,

but has been more minimal lately, although not entirely going away.

>

> I'm also curious how many of you have tried some sort of skating activity?

> For this has been roller skiing and skate skiing. It would include roller

> blading and ice skating I think. At my worst stage last summer I could

> barely walk, but was able to roller ski without much pain if stayed off

> hills. As the fall progressed I was able to do more and more, but was

> still limited (and am still limited) by how much climbing I could do. But

> it was a lot better than doing nothing ;-) My theory is that with skating

> you have no impact, you have less weight directly centered on your

> pattella and you don't have to have such an agressive knee bend to propel

> yourself.

In my situation, side to side motion would cause me so much pain as to

become nausiated. When the pain became the worst, the only relatively

comfortable motion I could do was straight ahead walking on a level surface.

Mike

MT

[Guest guest]

This is a good site Mike. I had it in my bookmarks but I was glad to look

at it again because there is one exercise I had forgotten about. So thanks

for the reminder!

They tell me my problem is not my knee cap, but I have stopped doing all

exercises that involve bending the knee. I take that back, I do a little

stepping on the phone book because I am trying to build my strength to be

able to take stairs again. But I have stopped everything else, including

the leg press that I loved so much. I focus now on leg raises at all

different angles and tightening the quads. I do about 15 minutes on the

treadmill but don't go very fast, and I would like to go longer eventually.

It's been almost 1 year since my knee swelled up like a balloon and it's

been a long and very frustrating year. My biggest problem is not so much

the daily aches and pains, but the occasional sharp pain that hurts so bad I

can't even put my foot down after. They have gradually lessened in quantity

and in severity, but just when I think I'm getting better I'll have another

one. I just keep experimenting with what works for me. Unfortunately that

pain can come doing anything, so it's not like I can avoid it by walking or

stepping a particular way. I spent 3 days on a little trip where I was

almost constantly on my feet. I won't lie, my knee hurt like hell, it was

sore and achy and so weak, but I never had that pain that cripples me.

You'd think I'd be more susceptible to it then, but that doesn't seem to be

the case.

Anyway, it's been 3 weeks now since my last severe pain (although I have

gone longer than that) and since I stopped the leg press I think I feel

stronger. I don't dare get my hopes up too much, but I'm praying I have

finally found a routine that will work for me. I have gradually increased

the ankle weights and I don't feel pressure on the knee so I hope I am doing

myself some good.

Re: What went well and what didn't with

surgery?

Re: What went well and what didn't with

surgery?

That's not true. Any PT who understands the problem also knows in extreme

cases, only do exercises that put NO pressure on the patella. Here is a

good site from Dr. Crawford;

http://www.ohsu.edu/academic/som/orthopaedics/dc_knee.htm

Mike

MT

[Guest guest]

I don't know if anyone has replied to you, but I can't do the quad exercises if

I straighten my leg. I start from sitting and raise it only about 30 degrees or

45 degrees if I'm lazy and not paying close attention. Anymore than that

really, really makes me painful. I also use a cho-pat brace and squeeze a

rolled up towel between my knees during this exercise. It not only isolates the

VMO, but I think it also hurts less (this may be a placebo effect, but I try not

to look the gift-horse in the mouth when it comes to pain relief). Also, I've

tried every darn Glucosamine/Chondroitin combo out there, but after reading a

website posted by someone on this board, I tried the Nature Made Triple Flex,

and wow, what a difference! I have gone totally off pain meds and

anti-inflammatories, but I can really tell when I miss a dose of the Triple

Flex. My mom uses a topical cream with Glucosamine/Chondroitin in her shoulder

during flare-ups in addition to the Triple Flex, and swears!

by it too. Maybe this might help your pain. I hope so, because chronic pain

can be so depressing! Good luck!!!

Molly

Meet my kitties!

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them babies. Tell Canada's Prime Minister to stop the hunt now!

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[Guest guest]

Mike: I'm really interested in this solution. Could you tell me how exactly

you wrap your knee to get the most effect?

Thanks!

Molly

Meet my kitties!

www.catster.com/?118813

More than 300,000 seals could be killed in Canada this year - most of

them babies. Tell Canada's Prime Minister to stop the hunt now!

http://go.care2.com/stophunt

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[Guest guest]

My crunch noise (knee crepitus) did go away after surgery. My pain is still

here, but better, I think and my surgeon prepared me for that. Also, as of this

week, I seem to be having some troubling instability problems. My knee has

buckled a couple of times. I hope that goes away...

Molly

Meet my kitties!

www.catster.com/?118813

More than 300,000 seals could be killed in Canada this year - most of

them babies. Tell Canada's Prime Minister to stop the hunt now!

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[Guest guest]

Sorry for being so late on my reply. Basically all I am doing is wrapping

for " compression " to drive excess fluid out. With TEDS or Tubigrips, you

simply put the right size on. If you are using an Ace bandage, start

wrapping about mid-calf, then keep a tight but slightly looser wrap to

mid-thigh. It is a simple solution to try, and I have been amazed at the

results in my case. I remembered a friend of my father's did this 35 years

ago when he had given up on doctors, and swore by it. He had fallen off a

roof, and jammed his knees by driving his feet into soft dirt.

Mike

MT

Re: Re: Re: What went well and what

didn't with surgery?

> Mike: I'm really interested in this solution. Could you tell me how

> exactly you wrap your knee to get the most effect?

>

> Thanks!

> Molly

>

>

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> More than 300,000 seals could be killed in Canada this year - most of

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> http://www.Care2.com Free e-mail. 100MB storage. Helps nonprofits.

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>

[Guest guest]

>I don't know if anyone has replied to you, but I can't do the quad exercises if

I straighten my leg. I start from sitting and raise it only about

> 30 degrees or 45 degrees if I'm lazy and not paying close attention. Anymore

than that really, really makes me painful. I also use a

> cho-pat brace and squeeze a rolled up towel between my knees during this

exercise. It not only isolates the VMO, but I think it also

> hurts less (this may be a placebo effect, but I try not to look the gift-horse

in the mouth when it comes to pain relief). Also, I've tried every

> darn Glucosamine/Chondroitin combo out there, but after reading a website

posted by someone on this board, I tried the Nature Made

> Triple Flex, and wow, what a difference! I have gone totally off pain meds

and anti-inflammatories, but I can really tell when I miss a dose

> of the Triple Flex. My mom uses a topical cream with Glucosamine/Chondroitin

in her shoulder during flare-ups in addition to the Triple

> Flex, and swears!

> by it too. Maybe this might help your pain. I hope so, because chronic pain

can be so depressing! Good luck!!!

Interesting. I also can't straigten my leg and I just accept that as a

limitation. I can do more than 30 degrees but not straight.

My doctor had said that another of his patients had had similar problems with

glucosamine and decided to fund a test. he bought 20 brands and sent them to a

lab to find out the amount of active ingrediants in each. I think the final

number was that only 2 samples had the amount of glucosamine labeled. The doctor

didn't remember the name(s) of the the others or of the brands that didn't

measure up. He did remember that Osteo Biflex was one of the good ones, and I

think somebody else mentioned that one as helpful. I used it during my period of

recovery. I really can't answer if it helped. It didn't hurt but stopping it has

hurt either from what i can tell.

Man, the diagnostics of this are rediculously complicated!

[Guest guest]

It's good to hear that Osteo Biflex is supposed to be a good brand, since

that is what I have used since the beginning. But like you, I can't

honestly say if it has helped me or not though. I have wanted to try other

brands but never have. I think I might give that Triple Flex a chance and

see what happens. I probably won't be able to notice a difference one way or

the other, but it's worth a try.

Re: Re: What went well and what didn't

with surgery?

My doctor had said that another of his patients had had similar problems

with glucosamine and decided to fund a test. he bought 20 brands and sent

them to a lab to find out the amount of active ingrediants in each. I think

the final number was that only 2 samples had the amount of glucosamine

labeled. The doctor didn't remember the name(s) of the the others or of the

brands that didn't measure up. He did remember that Osteo Biflex was one of

the good ones, and I think somebody else mentioned that one as helpful. I

used it during my period of recovery. I really can't answer if it helped. It

didn't hurt but stopping it has hurt either from what i can tell.

Man, the diagnostics of this are rediculously complicated!

[Guest guest]

My PT agreed with me (and disagreed with my doctor) that the Stairmaster, used a

certain way, does a good job of building up the VMO, and when you use it that

way, since the VMO is being used, the kneecap is pulled less laterally. You

have to make sure your knee appears to be positioned steadily over your outer 2

toes (it's actually positioned over your next-to-big toe, but it appears to be

over the outer toes due to parallax). Before PT, my knee would wobble all the

way on the downstep. After PT (strengthening the small glutes), it was steady.

However, now I appear to have a torn lateral meniscus in my good knee. Sigh.

Ann

Re: What went well and what didn't with

surgery?

The Stairmaster!!

That was the one machine my conulatant told me never to touch again!

I have grade III

>

> Mine hurt the same way & the same place after surgery. However,

it's been 2 years and I'd have to say that it's better now (possibly

from lack of use). I do take big doses of Glucosamine & Chondroitin

every day. I can walk farther than 2 years ago, and even run until

my lungs give out (pretty soon). However, if I do something that

requires major knee-bending, like hike through brush, Cp pain will

kick in pretty fast. I can do everything I need to do in the gym

w/knee tape and have begun experimenting doing it w/o knee tape. I

seem to be able to do the treadmill & Stairmaster (small steps -- it

can still be aerobic) w/o tape, but not the elliptical. I haven't

tried leg extensions w/o tape because my PT told me a better VMO

exercise is -- well, I'll have to describe it: stand with bad foot

on a thick phone book or a low Step, whatever the height is that you

can manage. Step down backwards w/other foot, then back up. Best if

good foot rests on floor for a second. Make sure bad knee doesn't

turn in. Should be right over toes (but allowing for parallax, it

looks like it's outside the toes). I haven't done this enough to

test my kneecap with it.

>

> Ann

>

>

> So it's clear to me that surgery has been a mixed bag with people

here. For those of you who didn't have good results, did it hurt in

the same way and same place after surgery? Or did the original pain

go away but a new type of pain start?

>

> Also I have to say after hearing the experiences of many of you I

feel really lucky to have regained as much of my life back as I have.

I especially feel for those of you that have had the doctor say

things like " your getting old, what do you expect? " I'm 47 and I

still hope to ski marathons: first I hope to just get past the knee

problems, and second, when I'm seventy I still want to be a citizen

racer.

>

> Clearly the people here haven't given up and that is really

encouraging.

>

>

>

>

>