Re: SODase, glutathione & mitochondrial translocator results

[Guest guest]

Sue,

What did u do to get your complete recovery of SODase?

I'm not sure what it is?

Thanks,

Gena

--- tensevern <tensevern@...> wrote:

> I had an ATP profile done last year (message #86226)

> which showed poor

> ATP production, blocked mitochondrial translocator

> protein [TL],

> nickel DNA adducts, very poor SODase function and

> polymorphic Zn/Cu &

> Mn SOD genes.

>

> The test results below show a complete(!) recovery

> of SODase (no more

> polymorphic genes), confirm the nickel problem and

> demonstrate

> disrupted glutathoine levels and enzymes.

>

> Sue

>

>

===============================================================

> Mitochondrial membrane- Translocator protein [TL]

> Test done on white blood cell mitochondria

>

> Numbers of mitochondria Normal

> Mitochondrial clumping Normal

> Mitochondrial membrane structure Normal

> Mitochondrial-DNA fluorescence binding Normal

> pH at outer mitochondrial membrane 7.1

> (normal: 6.8-7.4)

> Ca(2+) at outer mitochondrial membrane 190

> (normal: <200 umol/l)

>

> Mitochondrial membrane binding of:

> Proteins(s) Normal

> Lipids Normal

> Diolein: No

> Esterases Normal

> Other substances bound:

> Glutathione conjugates High

> Organic sulphate conjugates Trace

> Peptide complexes Not

> detectable

> Lactic acid & keto-acids Not

> detectable

> Chlorinated pesticides Not

> detectable

> PCBs (poly chlorinated byphenyls) Not

> detectable

> PBBs (poly brominated byphenyls) Not

> detectable

> Dichlorobenzene Not

> detectable

> Organophosphates (incl. OP pesticides) Not

> detectable

> Toxic metal(s) High

> (nickel)

> DNA/RNA (probably viral) Not

> detectable

>

> Essential elements associated with mt-membranes

> Potassium Low/Low

> normal

> Magnesium Normal

> Zinc Normal

>

>

===============================================================

> Superoxide Dismutase Studies

> Test done on neutrophils

>

> Functional test: 43% ref: >40

> Zn/Cu-SOD: 305 ref: 240 - 410

> Mn-SOD: 182 ref: 125 - 208

>

> Gene Studies:

> Zn/CU-SOD: Normal

> Mn-SOD: Normal

>

>

===============================================================

> Glutathione-S-transferase studies

>

> Red cell glutathione: 1.47 (ref: 1.7

> - 2.6 umol/l)

>

> Red cell glutathione peroxidase: 74 (ref: 67

> - 90 u/gHb(?))

>

> Red cell glutathione-S-transferase: 179 (ref: 68

> - 167 units)

> Notes: One discrete enzyme band accounts for 35% of

> the total. Atomic

> emission analysis of the eluted abnormal enzyme

> demonstrates the

> presence of nickel.

>

> Red cell nickel: 7.9 (ref: <5.0 ug/l)

>

>

===============================================================

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi Gena

SODase is superoxide dismutase and it's an important free-radical destroyer.

I took copper (1mg), manganese (5mg) and zinc (30mg) supplements when my first

tests showed low levels. That was 7 months ago.

Gena Castanon wrote:

>

>

> Sue,

>

> What did u do to get your complete recovery of SODase?

> I'm not sure what it is?

>

> Thanks,

> Gena

>

> --- tensevern <tensevern@...

> <mailto:tensevern%40btinternet.com>> wrote:

>

> > I had an ATP profile done last year (message #86226)

> > which showed poor

> > ATP production, blocked mitochondrial translocator

> > protein [TL],

> > nickel DNA adducts, very poor SODase function and

> > polymorphic Zn/Cu &

> > Mn SOD genes.

> >

> > The test results below show a complete(!) recovery

> > of SODase (no more

> > polymorphic genes), confirm the nickel problem and

> > demonstrate

> > disrupted glutathoine levels and enzymes.

> >

> > Sue

> >

> >

> ===============================================================

> > Mitochondrial membrane- Translocator protein [TL]

> > Test done on white blood cell mitochondria

> >

> > Numbers of mitochondria Normal

> > Mitochondrial clumping Normal

> > Mitochondrial membrane structure Normal

> > Mitochondrial-DNA fluorescence binding Normal

> > pH at outer mitochondrial membrane 7.1

> > (normal: 6.8-7.4)

> > Ca(2+) at outer mitochondrial membrane 190

> > (normal: <200 umol/l)

> >

> > Mitochondrial membrane binding of:

> > Proteins(s) Normal

> > Lipids Normal

> > Diolein: No

> > Esterases Normal

> > Other substances bound:

> > Glutathione conjugates High

> > Organic sulphate conjugates Trace

> > Peptide complexes Not

> > detectable

> > Lactic acid & keto-acids Not

> > detectable

> > Chlorinated pesticides Not

> > detectable

> > PCBs (poly chlorinated byphenyls) Not

> > detectable

> > PBBs (poly brominated byphenyls) Not

> > detectable

> > Dichlorobenzene Not

> > detectable

> > Organophosphates (incl. OP pesticides) Not

> > detectable

> > Toxic metal(s) High

> > (nickel)

> > DNA/RNA (probably viral) Not

> > detectable

> >

> > Essential elements associated with mt-membranes

> > Potassium Low/Low

> > normal

> > Magnesium Normal

> > Zinc Normal

> >

> >

> ===============================================================

> > Superoxide Dismutase Studies

> > Test done on neutrophils

> >

> > Functional test: 43% ref: >40

> > Zn/Cu-SOD: 305 ref: 240 - 410

> > Mn-SOD: 182 ref: 125 - 208

> >

> > Gene Studies:

> > Zn/CU-SOD: Normal

> > Mn-SOD: Normal

> >

> >

> ===============================================================

> > Glutathione-S-transferase studies

> >

> > Red cell glutathione: 1.47 (ref: 1.7

> > - 2.6 umol/l)

> >

> > Red cell glutathione peroxidase: 74 (ref: 67

> > - 90 u/gHb(?))

> >

> > Red cell glutathione-S-transferase: 179 (ref: 68

> > - 167 units)

> > Notes: One discrete enzyme band accounts for 35% of

> > the total. Atomic

> > emission analysis of the eluted abnormal enzyme

> > demonstrates the

> > presence of nickel.

> >

> > Red cell nickel: 7.9 (ref: <5.0 ug/l)

> >

> >

> ===============================================================

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Sue.

Thank you for posting these results.

It's really nice to see these improvements!

So it appears that the remaining issues are glutathione and nickel.

It looks as though the red cell glutathione transferase is trying

hard to get rid of the nickel, since the transferase is showing

higher activity than normal, presumably because it's being

expressed in higher amounts than normal, but it's having a tough

time doing so, because the glutathione is depleted, and it needs

glutathione to conjugate to the nickel. As you probably know, I

have suggested that in many cases of CFS the glutathione

concentrations are held down by a vicious circle mechanism involving

the methylation cycle, as has been found in autism. I don't know if

this is the situation in your case, but I think it may be.

I'm wondering why your nickel level is high. Carolwxyz got similar

results on nickel from her test. Do you know how you might have got

a significant exposure to nickel? Possibilities I can think of are

dental alloys, stainless steel cookware that has corroded

significantly and released nickel into food, or an environmental

source where you live, such as a mining or metal refining operation.

I'm puzzled by the reversal on the judgment of polymorphisms in your

SODs. Since the tests you had don't look directly at the genes, I

suspect that you didn't actually have genetic polymorphisms in your

SODs, but that the SOD molecules were abnormal because of

substitution of nickel ions into them where the other metals should

have been. That's just a guess, but I don't know how else to

explain these results, since genetic polymorphisms that a person has

inherited are not going to change. It would be interesting to know

what Dr. thinks about this now that the second set of test

results are available.

I'm also not sure whether the high activity of the glutathione

transferase proves that there is no polymorphism in it. Perhaps it

does, but I don't think these tests look directly for genetic

polymorphisms, so I'm not sure.

Thanks again, and I think your two sets of results, with targeted

treatment in between, show that the tests are very worthwhile and

also that treating the abnormalities found in the tests can

eliminate these abnormalities.

The glutathione issue remains, and I will be very curious as to

whether you will be able to raise it by a direct approach of

supplementing glutathione and/or its precursor amino acids, or

whether there is in fact a stubborn vicious circle mechanism

involving genetic polymorphisms in enzymes impacting the methylation

cycle, which will have to be dealt with using targeted supplements.

Thank you again!

Rich

>

> I had an ATP profile done last year (message #86226) which showed

poor

> ATP production, blocked mitochondrial translocator protein [TL],

> nickel DNA adducts, very poor SODase function and polymorphic

Zn/Cu &

> Mn SOD genes.

>

> The test results below show a complete(!) recovery of SODase (no

more

> polymorphic genes), confirm the nickel problem and demonstrate

> disrupted glutathoine levels and enzymes.

>

> Sue

>

> ===============================================================

> Mitochondrial membrane- Translocator protein [TL]

> Test done on white blood cell mitochondria

>

> Numbers of mitochondria Normal

> Mitochondrial clumping Normal

> Mitochondrial membrane structure Normal

> Mitochondrial-DNA fluorescence binding Normal

> pH at outer mitochondrial membrane 7.1 (normal: 6.8-7.4)

> Ca(2+) at outer mitochondrial membrane 190 (normal: <200

umol/l)

>

> Mitochondrial membrane binding of:

> Proteins(s) Normal

> Lipids Normal Diolein: No

> Esterases Normal

> Other substances bound:

> Glutathione conjugates High

> Organic sulphate conjugates Trace

> Peptide complexes Not detectable

> Lactic acid & keto-acids Not

detectable

> Chlorinated pesticides Not detectable

> PCBs (poly chlorinated byphenyls) Not detectable

> PBBs (poly brominated byphenyls) Not detectable

> Dichlorobenzene Not detectable

> Organophosphates (incl. OP pesticides) Not detectable

> Toxic metal(s) High (nickel)

> DNA/RNA (probably viral) Not detectable

>

> Essential elements associated with mt-membranes

> Potassium Low/Low normal

> Magnesium Normal

> Zinc Normal

>

> ===============================================================

> Superoxide Dismutase Studies

> Test done on neutrophils

>

> Functional test: 43% ref: >40

> Zn/Cu-SOD: 305 ref: 240 - 410

> Mn-SOD: 182 ref: 125 - 208

>

> Gene Studies:

> Zn/CU-SOD: Normal

> Mn-SOD: Normal

>

> ===============================================================

> Glutathione-S-transferase studies

>

> Red cell glutathione: 1.47 (ref: 1.7 - 2.6 umol/l)

>

> Red cell glutathione peroxidase: 74 (ref: 67 - 90 u/gHb(?))

>

> Red cell glutathione-S-transferase: 179 (ref: 68 - 167 units)

> Notes: One discrete enzyme band accounts for 35% of the total.

Atomic

> emission analysis of the eluted abnormal enzyme demonstrates the

> presence of nickel.

>

> Red cell nickel: 7.9 (ref: <5.0 ug/l)

>

> ===============================================================

>

[Guest guest]

More tests....it's confusing. Rich, do you think any of these tests

are necessary/very important--in addition to the basic organic acids

by Doctor's Data, and testing4health polymorphisms?

Rich, I mentioned in a previous post, I can't seem to get to your

talks on autism one--I'd click on the talk and it would return me to

the main page.

> >

> > I had an ATP profile done last year (message #86226) which showed

> poor

> > ATP production, blocked mitochondrial translocator protein [TL],

> > nickel DNA adducts, very poor SODase function and polymorphic

> Zn/Cu &

> > Mn SOD genes.

> >

> > The test results below show a complete(!) recovery of SODase (no

> more

> > polymorphic genes), confirm the nickel problem and demonstrate

> > disrupted glutathoine levels and enzymes.

> >

> > Sue

> >

> > ===============================================================

> > Mitochondrial membrane- Translocator protein [TL]

> > Test done on white blood cell mitochondria

> >

> > Numbers of mitochondria Normal

> > Mitochondrial clumping Normal

> > Mitochondrial membrane structure Normal

> > Mitochondrial-DNA fluorescence binding Normal

> > pH at outer mitochondrial membrane 7.1 (normal: 6.8-7.4)

> > Ca(2+) at outer mitochondrial membrane 190 (normal: <200

> umol/l)

> >

> > Mitochondrial membrane binding of:

> > Proteins(s) Normal

> > Lipids Normal Diolein: No

> > Esterases Normal

> > Other substances bound:

> > Glutathione conjugates High

> > Organic sulphate conjugates Trace

> > Peptide complexes Not detectable

> > Lactic acid & keto-acids Not

> detectable

> > Chlorinated pesticides Not detectable

> > PCBs (poly chlorinated byphenyls) Not detectable

> > PBBs (poly brominated byphenyls) Not detectable

> > Dichlorobenzene Not detectable

> > Organophosphates (incl. OP pesticides) Not detectable

> > Toxic metal(s) High (nickel)

> > DNA/RNA (probably viral) Not detectable

> >

> > Essential elements associated with mt-membranes

> > Potassium Low/Low normal

> > Magnesium Normal

> > Zinc Normal

> >

> > ===============================================================

> > Superoxide Dismutase Studies

> > Test done on neutrophils

> >

> > Functional test: 43% ref: >40

> > Zn/Cu-SOD: 305 ref: 240 - 410

> > Mn-SOD: 182 ref: 125 - 208

> >

> > Gene Studies:

> > Zn/CU-SOD: Normal

> > Mn-SOD: Normal

> >

> > ===============================================================

> > Glutathione-S-transferase studies

> >

> > Red cell glutathione: 1.47 (ref: 1.7 - 2.6 umol/l)

> >

> > Red cell glutathione peroxidase: 74 (ref: 67 - 90 u/gHb(?))

> >

> > Red cell glutathione-S-transferase: 179 (ref: 68 - 167 units)

> > Notes: One discrete enzyme band accounts for 35% of the total.

> Atomic

> > emission analysis of the eluted abnormal enzyme demonstrates the

> > presence of nickel.

> >

> > Red cell nickel: 7.9 (ref: <5.0 ug/l)

> >

> > ===============================================================

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Rich

Thanks so much for your comments. I've inserted a few responses in your message.

rvankonynen wrote:

> It's really nice to see these improvements!

**** There's been no clinical improvements that can be attributed to the

recovery of SODase levels. Since a bad crash last summer, the only improvement

I've seen has been due to low dose steroids (now a third of 500mg dexamethasone

per day). It was suggested that my crash was due to a flare of inflammation

triggered by a massage - in addition to ME/CFS, I also have a diagnosis of

borreliosis via video microscopy & high titre Bowen test. But the inflammation

may also have been caused by a nickel sensitivity - see below.

> So it appears that the remaining issues are glutathione and nickel.

**** See above re. possible borrelia infection.

> I'm wondering why your nickel level is high. .... Do you know

> how you might have got a significant exposure to nickel?

**** I have no known significant exposure to nickel beyond the ordinary

environment - I lived in a house heated with a coal fire as a child and was a

keen cyclist exposed to traffic pollution. I have a known lymphocyte

sensitivity to nickel.

Six months ago, JMH said that excessive exposure to Ni wasn't necessary to cause

nickel DNA adducts and they may be due to a sensitization to Ni and an

additional sensitization to the nickel conjugate formed as the body tries to

detox the Ni itself. The body would then react by squirreling this complex away

in fat or bone tissue.

> I'm puzzled by the reversal on the judgment of polymorphisms in your

> SODs. Since the tests you had don't look directly at the genes, I

> suspect that you didn't actually have genetic polymorphisms in your

> SODs, but that the SOD molecules were abnormal because of

> substitution of nickel ions into them where the other metals should

> have been. That's just a guess, but I don't know how else to

> explain these results, since genetic polymorphisms that a person has

> inherited are not going to change. It would be interesting to know

> what Dr. thinks about this now that the second set of test

> results are available.

**** That's an interesting point. I'd assumed he was detecting mutations in the

SODase genes. As you say, another question!

> The glutathione issue remains, and I will be very curious as to

> whether you will be able to raise it by a direct approach of

> supplementing glutathione and/or its precursor amino acids, or

> whether there is in fact a stubborn vicious circle mechanism

> involving genetic polymorphisms in enzymes impacting the methylation

> cycle, which will have to be dealt with using targeted supplements.

**** I've been supplementing at low levels with glutathione & its precursors for

at least 12 months. I had no reaction when I tried denatured whey, and tolerate

sulphur containing vegetables with no problems. So I'm plodding slowly through

Baker & Pangbourne, will then review your methylation posts and then maybe move

on to Amy Yasko. Too much to learn and to little brain!

Sue

[Guest guest]

jill1313 wrote:

> More tests....it's confusing. Rich, do you think any of these tests

> are necessary/very important--in addition to the basic organic acids

> by Doctor's Data, and testing4health polymorphisms?

Ah, never refuse data - it's a research scientist's food. Unexpected results

may lead to new insights. Information, information and more information. And a

brain to process it, please!! And the money to do 'em, of course!

The ATP and translocator tests are very new and, particularly the [TL] test,

still in development. They're not accepted by the health authorities, though I

hope my practitioner will pay attention to them. I still don't know whether I

should be treating borreliosis or CFS and I'm very reluctant to start long term

abx without being as sure as I can be that all other avenues have been explored.

Sue

[Guest guest]

Hi,

> I'm puzzled by the reversal on the judgment of polymorphisms in

your

> SODs. Since the tests you had don't look directly at the genes, I

> suspect that you didn't actually have genetic polymorphisms in

your

> SODs, but that the SOD molecules were abnormal because of

> substitution of nickel ions into them where the other metals

should

> have been. That's just a guess, but I don't know how else to

> explain these results, since genetic polymorphisms that a person

has

> inherited are not going to change. It would be interesting to

know

> what Dr. thinks about this now that the second set of test

> results are available.

***** The biochemist says that nickel DNA adducts can cause the

SODase genetic abnormalites.

> I'm also not sure whether the high activity of the glutathione

> transferase proves that there is no polymorphism in it. Perhaps

it

> does, but I don't think these tests look directly for genetic

> polymorphisms, so I'm not sure.

>

> Thanks again, and I think your two sets of results, with targeted

> treatment in between, show that the tests are very worthwhile and

> also that treating the abnormalities found in the tests can

> eliminate these abnormalities.

>

> The glutathione issue remains, and I will be very curious as to

> whether you will be able to raise it by a direct approach of

> supplementing glutathione and/or its precursor amino acids, or

> whether there is in fact a stubborn vicious circle mechanism

> involving genetic polymorphisms in enzymes impacting the

methylation

> cycle, which will have to be dealt with using targeted supplements.

***** When I spoke to Dr M she thought the fact that the nickel was

conjugated to glutathione in my results (posted a few weeks ago)

meant that I was in the process of detoxing nickel - I have been

taking various supplements that would rev up glutathione and GST.

***** There was a Lyme conference in the UK recently. An LLMD in

the UK who is finding borrelia-like oranisms in the blood of many

with CFS is finding the ATP mitochondrial problems in most CFS

patients. Regarding the translocator tests he said that he is

finding some with DNA/RNA, some with glutathione conjugates and

some with pesticides.

Cheers,

Carol

[Guest guest]

Sue, how did this recovery occur, what treatments? thanks, Joanee

tensevern wrote:

>I had an ATP profile done last year (message #86226) which showed poor

>ATP production, blocked mitochondrial translocator protein [TL],

>nickel DNA adducts, very poor SODase function and polymorphic Zn/Cu &

>Mn SOD genes.

>

>The test results below show a complete(!) recovery of SODase (no more

>polymorphic genes), confirm the nickel problem and demonstrate

>disrupted glutathoine levels and enzymes.

>

>Sue

>

>===============================================================

>Mitochondrial membrane- Translocator protein [TL]

>Test done on white blood cell mitochondria

>

>Numbers of mitochondria Normal

>Mitochondrial clumping Normal

>Mitochondrial membrane structure Normal

>Mitochondrial-DNA fluorescence binding Normal

>pH at outer mitochondrial membrane 7.1 (normal: 6.8-7.4)

>Ca(2+) at outer mitochondrial membrane 190 (normal: <200 umol/l)

>

>Mitochondrial membrane binding of:

> Proteins(s) Normal

> Lipids Normal Diolein: No

> Esterases Normal

>Other substances bound:

> Glutathione conjugates High

> Organic sulphate conjugates Trace

> Peptide complexes Not detectable

> Lactic acid & keto-acids Not detectable

> Chlorinated pesticides Not detectable

> PCBs (poly chlorinated byphenyls) Not detectable

> PBBs (poly brominated byphenyls) Not detectable

> Dichlorobenzene Not detectable

> Organophosphates (incl. OP pesticides) Not detectable

> Toxic metal(s) High (nickel)

> DNA/RNA (probably viral) Not detectable

>

>Essential elements associated with mt-membranes

> Potassium Low/Low normal

> Magnesium Normal

> Zinc Normal

>

>===============================================================

>Superoxide Dismutase Studies

>Test done on neutrophils

>

>Functional test: 43% ref: >40

>Zn/Cu-SOD: 305 ref: 240 - 410

>Mn-SOD: 182 ref: 125 - 208

>

>Gene Studies:

>Zn/CU-SOD: Normal

>Mn-SOD: Normal

>

>===============================================================

>Glutathione-S-transferase studies

>

>Red cell glutathione: 1.47 (ref: 1.7 - 2.6 umol/l)

>

>Red cell glutathione peroxidase: 74 (ref: 67 - 90 u/gHb(?))

>

>Red cell glutathione-S-transferase: 179 (ref: 68 - 167 units)

>Notes: One discrete enzyme band accounts for 35% of the total. Atomic

>emission analysis of the eluted abnormal enzyme demonstrates the

>presence of nickel.

>

>Red cell nickel: 7.9 (ref: <5.0 ug/l)

>

>===============================================================

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Joanee

Note it's a recovery of SODase levels - I've yet to see any improvement in

symptoms! Having said that, I've been taking copper (1mg) at breakfast,

manganese (5mg) at lunch and zinc (30mg) at night for 7 months on the

recommendation of my CFS doc.

Sue

Joanee Webb wrote:

> Sue, how did this recovery occur, what treatments? thanks, Joanee

> tensevern wrote:

> >The test results below show a complete(!) recovery of SODase (no more

> >polymorphic genes)