Re: Ballady - Lyme

[Guest guest]

,

I think my own simple case is pretty good evidence that there is

such a thing as an ongoing borrelia (Lyme) infection that can last

for years and be resistant to massive, lengthy doses of antibiotics

and still be an active infection, not just an immune system reaction

of some sort. I was treated for 7 years with high doses of various

antibiotics. I had a pretty good recovery as you have during those

seven years. I was on antibiotics because they knew I had mycoplasma

incognitus with a positive PCR at ImmunoScience Labs. In 2002 I

tested positive for borrelia in a urine antigen test. What does this

mean? It means I STILL HAD ACTIVE LIVE BORRELIA IN MY BODY BEING

KILLLED BY ANTIBIOTICS. This is huge. It means that a person can be

chronically infected and unable to be cured after years of

antibiotics. BTW I would completely relapse in three months any time

I went off antibiotics.

So when folks are thinking could lyme cause cfs I think the answer

is a resounding YES. I am not saying borrelia is the only infection,

but it certainly fits the bill as one cause.

Hope this is helpful as folks try to think what they might have. Let

me add that many, many tick bites are never known as ticks are

small. Also borrelia is carried by stinging flies and POSSIBLY by

fleas. Certainly our current blood supply is contaminated. Also,

many people may carry the infection without obvious symptoms for

years. My son had no symptoms until he was 30, and my husband had

only aching muscles and sciatica and then prostate problems. Who

would have suspected borrelia???? All his problems clear up on

antibiotics, and he also had positive urine antigen tests as did my

son. We have to take this seriously.

a

>

> Hey, welcome.

>

> Its possible the lyme organism Borrelia burgdorferi (Bb) could

cause

> virtually all cases of CFS.

>

> Its also conceivable Bb could cause no cases of CFS at all.

>

> In a significant percentage of cases of acute lyme (whose symptoms

> are essentially the same as CFS's symptoms), CFS develops. In a

> significant percentage of cases of clinical Epstein-Barr virus

> mononucleosis, CFS likewise develops. The idea that Epstein-Barr

> virus can *ongoingly* cause CFS is out of fashion, and I am not

> closely familiar with it.

>

> But, assuming Epstein-Barr does NOT ongoingly cause CFS, some

other

> chronic infection, which is able to opportunistically take hold

> during Epstein-Barr mononucleosis, might be the ongoing cause of

CFS.

> Such an infection might also be able to take hold during acute

lyme.

>

> So: Bb infection and Epstein-Barr virus can both prompt CFS. They

> definitely can both persist in CFS patients, ie be present in the

> body (Epstein-Barr persists in everyone). But whether they can be

the

> ongoing cause of the disease is not 100% clear.

>

> That said, there is some evidence that Bb does or probably does in

> fact, in many cases, ongoingly cause CFS (or chronic lyme, as some

> would call it; an identical disease). For example, papers by

Hulinska

> and other papers by Nanagara provide some such evidence, and can

be

> located using pubmed.com. Further less direct evidence of various

> kinds also exists.

>

> Anyway, if you are interested in evaluating a persistant/chronic

> bacterial infection as primary cause of many cases of CFS (and I

do

> personally believe this to be the best model), you may want to

focus

> on peoples results with antimicrobial therapy, at least as much as

on

> the involvement of particular organisms. After all, many

undiscovered

> pathogenic bacteria may exist and could be involved in our

diseases.

>

> If you want to learn more about this stuff, cpnhelp.com is a good

> site which focuses on a different bacterium, Chlamydia pneumoniae.

> Theres also lymenet and eurolyme, which focus on borrelia.

If

> youre curious why some bacterial infections might not be

eradicated

> by ~5 days of treatment like a typical acute bacterial infection

is,

> try reading about the bacterial infection called M. avium complex,

or

> Whipple's disease, or look up J Gieffers 2002, which a paper on

how

> hard it is to kill Chlamydia pneumoniae in certain special

situations.

>

> I'm a bit of an abx proselyte due to my 95% recovery from severe

CFS,

> using strong combination antibacterial treatment. But of course,

many

> others have had wonderful results or OK results. I do think

treatment

> has to be aggressive as possible in order to have the best chances

> for a nice degree of success.

>

> best,

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Well I'm confused.

> >

> > It sounds as if IgeneX just keeps testing until a positive Lymes

> > develops somewhere along the way, even for people who have not

had a

> > tick bite. I wonder if this would also be true for those who

show no

> > symptoms of CFS or Lymes.

> >

> > Then again, it sounds as if some are saying that Lymes is always

the

> > precursor of CFS. What about those who may not test positive for

> > Lymes? Would that mean they are dealing with something altogether

> > different and their CFS symptoms have developed from a different

> source?

> >

> > Sorry if this sounds elementary. I just recently discovered this

> site

> > and I see that most here are much more facile with the terms and

> > certainly have a greater understanding of the whole picture than

I.

> >

> > Ballady

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I completely agree. And yet its so epidemic, what can we do?

Studies in animals have proven what you say. Even treated early, you

don't get clearance from tissues. You sometimes go latent clinically,

but you're still infected. Such is the nature of spirochetes I guess.

> > >

> > > Well I'm confused.

> > >

> > > It sounds as if IgeneX just keeps testing until a positive Lymes

> > > develops somewhere along the way, even for people who have not

> had a

> > > tick bite. I wonder if this would also be true for those who

> show no

> > > symptoms of CFS or Lymes.

> > >

> > > Then again, it sounds as if some are saying that Lymes is always

> the

> > > precursor of CFS. What about those who may not test positive for

> > > Lymes? Would that mean they are dealing with something altogether

> > > different and their CFS symptoms have developed from a different

> > source?

> > >

> > > Sorry if this sounds elementary. I just recently discovered this

> > site

> > > and I see that most here are much more facile with the terms and

> > > certainly have a greater understanding of the whole picture than

> I.

> > >

> > > Ballady

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

a, I quite agree that the ability of Bb not to be eradicated by

heavy antibacterials is one thing that helps make it a great

candidate for an ongoing cause of CFS. One of the authors I cited,

Hulinska, found Bb in several patients again and again despite

intensive treatment (tho not in every sample). Bb was positively

identified using specific immunoelectron microscopy. The medico-

politically dominant anti-lyme camp here in the US speaks as though

this paper doesnt exist. But I xeroxed myself a copy at the library,

so I know it does!

I believe Fikrig has found Bb in mice for at least a good while after

treatment. However, the mice werent sick, presumably because after

treatment their infection remained too mild to produce symptoms.

> ,

> I think my own simple case is pretty good evidence that there is

> such a thing as an ongoing borrelia (Lyme) infection that can last

> for years and be resistant to massive, lengthy doses of antibiotics

> and still be an active infection, not just an immune system

reaction

> of some sort. I was treated for 7 years with high doses of various

> antibiotics. I had a pretty good recovery as you have during those

> seven years. I was on antibiotics because they knew I had

mycoplasma

> incognitus with a positive PCR at ImmunoScience Labs. In 2002 I

> tested positive for borrelia in a urine antigen test. What does

this

> mean? It means I STILL HAD ACTIVE LIVE BORRELIA IN MY BODY BEING

> KILLLED BY ANTIBIOTICS. This is huge. It means that a person can be

> chronically infected and unable to be cured after years of

> antibiotics. BTW I would completely relapse in three months any

time

> I went off antibiotics.