Re: Re: RE: Re: re: Autism - the swing which moves

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/5/99 11:27:59 GMT Standard Time, n.clark@...

writes:

> You're probably right.

> It wasn't until I made the change to quit ABA

> that the dramatic improvements in were seen.

> Of course ever since, CHANGE is the most

> important ingredient in his new program.

>

.......Same happened with us! I think he fely like he was released from Jail!

I certainly have a happy kid, if chaotic!

Liz Lucy

http://autistic-information.virtualave.net

[Guest guest]

This post really caught my eye, since I too feel like I'm in ABA hell. We've

been doing it for a year with my daughter (now 4) and I haven't seen any huge

results. Plus, I have people in my house all day, I worry about tutors being

late, all in all it's safe to say that everyone hates it. BUT - what do you

replace it with? I don't want to go from a structured program to nothing....

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/6/99 01:43:02 GMT Standard Time, Eyesnelson@...

writes:

> From: Eyesnelson@...

>

> This post really caught my eye, since I too feel like I'm in ABA hell.

We've

>

> been doing it for a year with my daughter (now 4) and I haven't seen any

> huge

> results. Plus, I have people in my house all day, I worry about tutors

being

>

> late, all in all it's safe to say that everyone hates it. BUT - what do

you

> replace it with? I don't want to go from a structured program to

nothing....

>

>

........................will try and help, am too busy right now, but will

mail you again soon, we do 'real' ABA outside, in parks on trains in

stores....lol...just having great fun all day out with

therapists...continually moving etc..my son loves it and he goes out at 9,

back at 5...happy, sociable,learning, tired kid...<bliss>

Liz Lucy

http://autistic-information.virtualave.net

..

[Guest guest]

My son loves aba--it brought him INTO enjoyment of life---and then Dr.

Goldberg's intervention brought us farther---guess it depends on the kid

Kate

[Guest guest]

We were in ABA hell too for a year or so...trying to find enough therapists;

trying to pacify them each time they got mad so they wouldn't quit and leave

us " stranded " ; always having someone in the home, etc. Yes my son was

learning but very slowly.

The thing is it was comfortable for us because with ABA you have a plan, a

structure, so you " know " what to do. It takes a lot of the pressure off of

you because then you don't have to worry about what to do next. Therapists

love it becasue they don't have to think much about it either-you arrive;

your goal is to do " x " trials today, in these areas, and that's it.

I realize it's more than that, but I know what it is-we did Lovaas with the

Lovaas people, not some knockoff group. One day at a training session with

the person from California, she was trying to get my son to do a drill. They

were seated face-to-face with no table in between. My son did what he was

supposed to do-he was so happy he jumped up and hugged the instructor. She

immediately, very stern-faced, sat him back down and said to do it 3 more

times before he could get up. In other words, it's all about how many THINGS

can he do; how much stuff can you write in the book each day; what's the %

correct today, etc. This was the precise event that lead us to say " that's

it " for this type of approach.

You have to realize that the number of things he knows is not what's going to

make him a good funtioning, happy member of society. Our kids need to learn

the emotional side of life, and acquire the skills that will help them learn

on their own instead of it having to be force-fed through drills. Once our

child got the concept of asking " what's that " (spoken initially as " wha dat " )

he began to realize he could acquire information on his own. These are the

types of things to be working on.

We began researching the Koegel's from California (who gave us the idea

above-it's in one of their books), and Greenspan. Both of them believe in

developing the person, and have great approaches to doing it. The problem is

there is no set learning plan so you have to be much more creative in setting

up learning opportunities (Koegels are great at this). Your therapists don't

like it becasue they have to be more physically active, but more importantly,

they must think about what to do next, instead of trying the 3rd trial for

the 5th time. Trust me-there are times when you want the " comfort " of a set

plan but you have to look deep down and ask yourself is this what I want for

my child.

Our son was diagnosed " severely autistic " at age 2. At age 5 he was no longer

autistic, and now attends regular kindergarten on his own with no problems.

Dr Goldberg was a major part of that also, but I'm concnetrating more on the

therapy side here.

I'm sure this will spark debate from the ABA crowd, and I'm not going to

engage in any more of that-seems it occurs every month of 2. I just feel

compelled to respond when someone says they are in " ABA hell " and don't know

what to do.

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

Just to say that Sundberg and Partington are available in California

and

they have a school called 'Stars' there also. Here is a link to their website

(this is ABA and not BS) :-)

<A HREF= " http://www.behavior-analysis.org/ " >Behavior Analysis, Inc. Home Page

</A>

Liz Lucy

http://autistic-information.virtualave.net

..

[Guest guest]

Are you working things out so that you can take your little girl to Dr.

Goldberg? I thought that you were thinking about doing that. Kathy

[Guest guest]

The hug that your little boy wanted to give was worth more than any activity

that he was going to do. That therapist was not being therapeutic.

[Guest guest]

,

What about replacing it with a relationship based program. Have you read

any of Dr. Stanley Greenspan work with autistic kids? The " floor time "

approach is very big on the east coast but does not seem to be very

widespread out here.

I too was locked in ABA hell. My son failed miserably and never stopped

screaming. The floor time approach was totally different and our whole

family had to change the way we looked at our son. He know is doing very

well and able to function in our home and the community. It is so nice to

have a happy little boy. It has beena lot of work but so worth the effort.

You might get a copy of Dr. Greenspan's book " The Child with Speical Needs "

..

Nanlanning@...

Re: Re: RE: Re: re: Autism - the swing which moves

>From: Eyesnelson@...

>

>This post really caught my eye, since I too feel like I'm in ABA hell.

We've

>been doing it for a year with my daughter (now 4) and I haven't seen any

huge

>results. Plus, I have people in my house all day, I worry about tutors

being

>late, all in all it's safe to say that everyone hates it. BUT - what do you

>replace it with? I don't want to go from a structured program to

nothing....

>

>

>

>>

[Guest guest]

Greenspan was a great approach. We tried it when we stopped Lovaas and it was

so helpful. I think it was the beginning of the changes in my child. I think

Greenspan's theories are the best of anyone in this business. For anyone

trying to determine the best therapy for their child, I would say reading

some Greenspan should be mandatory. When I first read his theory, I knew it

was what I had been looking for.

[Guest guest]

Re;Lovaas; please, if you are going to inflict it upon these children, please

wait until your 2 years is over before trying convince other

frightened,mourning and vulnerable parents that they must do this dire

'therapy'. Again, YET again, I am NOT repeat NOT referring to ABA, here is a

link to ABA <A HREF= " http://www.wmich.edu/aba/ " >ABA</A>

Liz Lucy

http://autistic-information.virtualave.net

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/6/99 4:45:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, Lizanj@...

writes:

I think we need to be careful about the comments we make about the various

options parents have in the way of treatment for their children; we are in

our 5th year of LOVAAS (our child started late, at age 9)---it has been

fabulous for him---he has blossomed. Everwhere we go, people comment on how

happy he is. Most people cannot believe that he was diagnosed with moderate

to severe autism at age 6 because he is doing so well. Our reinforcement

consists of whatever he finds FUN--so as a result, he like learning, and we

have fun in the process too.

Kate

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/6/99 10:15:45 GMT Standard Time, Kkscharste@...

writes:

> we are in

> our 5th year of LOVAAS

Hello?

[Guest guest]

Hi! Could you write a list of some of the things you did to help your son? And

how " often " thru the day, week you did these things? Also anything on diet? or

supplements? thanks, Lois (JJsmom)

CWither43@... wrote:

> From: CWither43@...

>

> We were in ABA hell too for a year or so...trying to find enough therapists;

> trying to pacify them each time they got mad so they wouldn't quit and leave

> us " stranded " ; always having someone in the home, etc. Yes my son was

> learning but very slowly.

> The thing is it was comfortable for us because with ABA you have a plan, a

> structure, so you " know " what to do. It takes a lot of the pressure off of

> you because then you don't have to worry about what to do next. Therapists

> love it becasue they don't have to think much about it either-you arrive;

> your goal is to do " x " trials today, in these areas, and that's it.

>

> I realize it's more than that, but I know what it is-we did Lovaas with the

> Lovaas people, not some knockoff group. One day at a training session with

> the person from California, she was trying to get my son to do a drill. They

> were seated face-to-face with no table in between. My son did what he was

> supposed to do-he was so happy he jumped up and hugged the instructor. She

> immediately, very stern-faced, sat him back down and said to do it 3 more

> times before he could get up. In other words, it's all about how many THINGS

> can he do; how much stuff can you write in the book each day; what's the %

> correct today, etc. This was the precise event that lead us to say " that's

> it " for this type of approach.

>

> You have to realize that the number of things he knows is not what's going to

> make him a good funtioning, happy member of society. Our kids need to learn

> the emotional side of life, and acquire the skills that will help them learn

> on their own instead of it having to be force-fed through drills. Once our

> child got the concept of asking " what's that " (spoken initially as " wha dat " )

> he began to realize he could acquire information on his own. These are the

> types of things to be working on.

>

> We began researching the Koegel's from California (who gave us the idea

> above-it's in one of their books), and Greenspan. Both of them believe in

> developing the person, and have great approaches to doing it. The problem is

> there is no set learning plan so you have to be much more creative in setting

> up learning opportunities (Koegels are great at this). Your therapists don't

> like it becasue they have to be more physically active, but more importantly,

> they must think about what to do next, instead of trying the 3rd trial for

> the 5th time. Trust me-there are times when you want the " comfort " of a set

> plan but you have to look deep down and ask yourself is this what I want for

> my child.

>

> Our son was diagnosed " severely autistic " at age 2. At age 5 he was no longer

> autistic, and now attends regular kindergarten on his own with no problems.

> Dr Goldberg was a major part of that also, but I'm concnetrating more on the

> therapy side here.

>

> I'm sure this will spark debate from the ABA crowd, and I'm not going to

> engage in any more of that-seems it occurs every month of 2. I just feel

> compelled to respond when someone says they are in " ABA hell " and don't know

> what to do.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Listmates,

Obviously you either have the wrong agencies overseeing your ABA or you are

not serious enough about it. I agree it is very hard to have people in and

out of your house all day. Finding dedicated and loving tutors can make all

the difference. I have two very good tutors, one of them moves me so much as

I watch her work with my child, he loves her as if she were family and loves

working with her. She is excellent with toy play and incorporates a lot of

playtime into his program making it a happy time, not the hell you guys

describe. I also myself try to do 5 to 6 hours a week of his ABA and stay

very involved with my tutors. My son when he began the program in June at

age 3 had no appropriate play skills. He now play with age appropriate toys

on his own. He has mastered 3d-3d identical, 3d-3d non-identical, fine motor

and cooperative manipulative skills appropriate for a 4 year old, Sound

Localization, Expressing Desires, 5 piece puzzles, and is about to master non

-verbal imitation with objects and gross motor imitation. He is now saying

short sentences, telling us what he desires and singing many many songs. A

successful ABA program comes from dedicated people, that means parents too.

The parents must be willing to do therapy and make sure the skills taught in

the therapy room are generalized outside of the room and in the community. I

am not saying that ABA is the complete cure, I believe diet, supplements and

sensory intergration has also been a help to my child. But without his ABA

he would not be where he is today only 5 months into his program.

Sincerely,

Lynn

[Guest guest]

We do 'ABA' and also have loving and caring therapists. Only we do 'ABA' and

NOT the 'Lovaas' . Therapists are only human, and not aware of what to do

until you teach them. Or do you have 'ABA' qualified people visiting at least

ONCE a week? The best information I have found, so you have a choice, is to

visit ; www.iaba.com or <A HREF= " http://www.wmich.edu/aba/ " >ABA</A> .

Best wishes

Liz Lucy

http://autistic-information.virtualave.net

[Guest guest]

Liz,

Our ABA is through a Lovaas replication sight in South Carolina and the

people we work with are not the cold and uncaring people (drill sargents)

that I have heard described. The head of the agency and the consultants have

studied under Ivar himself. I think that it is up to us as parents to

monitor our programs and be willing to devote as much time to generalization

of learned skills and making sure our child is happy. My son certainly is.

Sincerely

Lynn

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/7/99 01:22:52 GMT Standard Time, LMMLYNN@... writes:

> devote as much time to generalization

> of learned skills and making sure our child is happy.

......That is the main thing, and that he will continue to benefit for his

entire life. Please, study whenever you have a spare moment (which I know is

rare)..I have made these mistakes. Happiness and awareness of the 'whole'

world is essential if our kids are to one be in it.

Liz Lucy

http://autistic-information.virtualave.net

[Guest guest]

Kate,

Hi! My JJ gets ABA inschool and started late too. We are not strick with it but

that IS how JJ learns! He has a great team at his school and we all work

together to help him. Even the kids at school want to work with JJ. Lois

(JJsmom)

Kkscharste@... wrote:

> From: Kkscharste@...

>

> In a message dated 11/6/99 4:45:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, Lizanj@...

> writes:

>

> I think we need to be careful about the comments we make about the various

> options parents have in the way of treatment for their children; we are in

> our 5th year of LOVAAS (our child started late, at age 9)---it has been

> fabulous for him---he has blossomed. Everwhere we go, people comment on how

> happy he is. Most people cannot believe that he was diagnosed with moderate

> to severe autism at age 6 because he is doing so well. Our reinforcement

> consists of whatever he finds FUN--so as a result, he like learning, and we

> have fun in the process too.

> Kate

>

>

[Guest guest]

Please remove us from your list. Thank you the O'Neals

[Guest guest]

We went to Dr. Goldberg about two weeks ago. He said he thinks he can help

our daughter and make the disease that has causes part of her brain to shut

down (hence the " autistic " behavior) to start working again. My heart hasn't

stopped pounding since. I don't want to get my hopes up, but something like

that would be more wonderful than anything one earth that I can imagine,

times ten..... eeek

[Guest guest]

I tried reading Greenspan's book, but it was so long and involved, I guess

part of my brain has shut down too, but I just didn't get exactly what I was

supposed to do for my daughter. I didn't know how to tell if she was

overstimulated, understimulated - it's like learning a whole new method. Is

there a set Greenspanish program that people can borrow from? i'm just too

tired to be creative right now (

[Guest guest]

Cheryl,

What are you doing for your son? Thanks for the information! Lois (JJsmom)

1raptor wrote:

> From: " 1raptor " <1raptor@...>

>

> I think you should have hope, thats what keeps us going. My son was

> higher up in the spectrum, a spectrum of all kinds of symptoms. He is

> really starting to blossom and be a more normal functioning child. It's

> a process but at least in my sons case, I feel it has been worth it.

> After making a few changes awhile back, we're seeing new improvements.

> For the first time in his life, he is enjoying reading. The part of his

> brain where imagination is from seems to be working better. I want to

> pinch myself sometimes when I start seeing new changes.

> Cheryl

> Re: Re: RE: Re: re: Autism - the swing which moves

>

> > From: Eyesnelson@...

> >

> > We went to Dr. Goldberg about two weeks ago. He said he thinks he can

> help

> > our daughter and make the disease that has causes part of her brain to

> shut

> > down (hence the " autistic " behavior) to start working again. My heart

> hasn't

> > stopped pounding since. I don't want to get my hopes up, but something

> like

> > that would be more wonderful than anything one earth that I can

> imagine,

> > times ten..... eeek

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think you should have hope, thats what keeps us going. My son was

higher up in the spectrum, a spectrum of all kinds of symptoms. He is

really starting to blossom and be a more normal functioning child. It's

a process but at least in my sons case, I feel it has been worth it.

After making a few changes awhile back, we're seeing new improvements.

For the first time in his life, he is enjoying reading. The part of his

brain where imagination is from seems to be working better. I want to

pinch myself sometimes when I start seeing new changes.

Cheryl

Re: Re: RE: Re: re: Autism - the swing which moves

> From: Eyesnelson@...

>

> We went to Dr. Goldberg about two weeks ago. He said he thinks he can

help

> our daughter and make the disease that has causes part of her brain to

shut

> down (hence the " autistic " behavior) to start working again. My heart

hasn't

> stopped pounding since. I don't want to get my hopes up, but something

like

> that would be more wonderful than anything one earth that I can

imagine,

> times ten..... eeek

>

[Guest guest]

He is being treated by Dr. Goldberg.

Cheryl

> From: lois noland <jlois@...>

>

> Cheryl,

> What are you doing for your son? Thanks for the information! Lois

(JJsmom)

>