Re: Peronal/ immunics

September 12, 2004

No

Peronal/ immunics

Hi all,

If I remember some of us were members of the immunics group for a while.

I wish to ask you a question. Is the approach of this group has any

relationship with scientology and/or dianetics? Thanks Nil

September 12, 2004

,

I completely cured myself with Immunics. I had a severe case of

CFIDS--one year ago I used a wheelchair to go more than a couple of

blocks, and had confirmed c. pneumonia, HHV-6, EBV, CMV, neurotoxicity,

hypercoagulation, etc., the usual plethora of symptoms. Now I am working

full-time, jogging, at full mental capacity, etc.

Peronal/ immunics

I know someone who talked to the founders and it is sorta like a

religion in

the end. There is another system I heard of that may be very similar:

_www.lymefree.com_ (http://www.lymefree.com) Don't know of anyone who

has gone

through either one of them at the moment but I'd be willing to be

brainwashed

by a religion if it meant total cure

In a message dated 9/12/2004 11:24:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, CFSFM

Experimental writes:

If I remember some of us were members of the immunics group for a

while. I

wish to ask you a question. Is the approach of this group has any

relationship

with scientology and/or dianetics?

September 12, 2004

,

I was a member of your group for a while as you know. There is one thing I have

difficulty to understand that why is it stated that this group has a church? To

me concept of religion and therapy of CFS are two different things. If one says

that you need to belong to a church to be able to learn healing modalities use

by that church than this is an invitation to a church,invitation to a new

religion. I also noticed that the methods you use are kept confidential between

the members. I mean you don't explain those methods in this list. Can you? Than

this is something different for me.Religions are for good of people and I don't

understand why methods are kept secret from other people. I also think if one

wishes to spread a religion than invitation should directly be done for the

religion not to for the cure of a disease.I joined to your group for learning

new methods to fight CFS but I saw there that I had to belong to a church.That

was not what I was expecting.I was disappointed. If one had mentioned before

that this was a religious group that would be nicer and more ethical I believe.I

am sorry but I think there was something strange in your group.That is

my opinion and I must frankly say that.The reason I asked about scientology is

that I was making a search about them and I also saw their website that they

also belonged to a church and I needed to know if you both were the same

group.Thank you for clearing that for me. Hope I Have not hurt you. I have

nothing against you personally.I hope you are on the right way and wish you

wellness.

Best regards.

Nil

Peronal/ immunics

I know someone who talked to the founders and it is sorta like a

religion in

the end. There is another system I heard of that may be very similar:

_www.lymefree.com_ (http://www.lymefree.com) Don't know of anyone who

has gone

through either one of them at the moment but I'd be willing to be

brainwashed

by a religion if it meant total cure

In a message dated 9/12/2004 11:24:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, CFSFM

Experimental writes:

If I remember some of us were members of the immunics group for a

while. I

wish to ask you a question. Is the approach of this group has any

relationship

with scientology and/or dianetics?

September 12, 2004

Hi Nil:

You don't have to join any church to learn immunics. In fact you can join for

free and have full use of the immunics website to learn what it is and how to do

it. That is what I did at first but I found it so valuable that I went back and

made a donation. I am using immunics to cure CFS, Fibro and Osteoporosis. I

am not cured yet but I'm better. I'm off antidepressants after being on them

for 10 years for one thing. If you were sitting in front of me I could teach

you how to do it, but I really think that it is best taught by watching someone

do it. There is a video on the website.

The thing is for example...say you want to use immunics to decide what

supplements would be good to heal yourself. You can use immunics to test all

kinds of things and find the right answer for you. It might be different than

what someone else needs to do. Maybe you would even test yes that it would help

you to go join say, the Catholic Church, or become a Buddist....whatever. It is

important to keep doing what works for you but Immunics can help with the

decision making process. Or maybe you would test yes that you should go see Dr.

X. You are using a power that is within you to know what is the right way to

go. You can really cut to the chase rather than spending lots of money on

things that won't help. That is what the website teaches you to do. Yes it all

looks really strange, but sometimes strange things work! Whether it works or

not can be the deciding question. Do I feel better after I do it...more

empowered, happy...all these conditions can work to bring about healing.

It seems to me that it could be taught on this list, but why would a person do

that and waste their energy when it has all been written out on the website?

The first four tutorials are fully accessible.

It is free and it works!

Peggy

www.immunics.org

,

I was a member of your group for a while as you know. There is one thing I

have difficulty to understand that why is it stated that this group has a

church? To me concept of religion and therapy of CFS are two different things.

If one says that you need to belong to a church to be able to learn healing

modalities use by that church than this is an invitation to a church,invitation

to a new religion. I also noticed that the methods you use are kept confidential

between the members. I mean you don't explain those methods in this list. Can

you? Than this is something different for me.Religions are for good of people

and I don't understand why methods are kept secret from other people. I also

think if one wishes to spread a religion than invitation should directly be done

for the religion not to for the cure of a disease.I joined to your group for

learning new methods to fight CFS but I saw there that I had to belong to a

church.That was not what I was expecting.I was disappointed. If one had

mentioned before that this was a religious group that would be nicer and more

ethical I believe.I am sorry but I think there was something strange in

your group.That is my opinion and I must frankly say that.The reason I asked

about scientology is that I was making a search about them and I also saw their

website that they also belonged to a church and I needed to know if you both

were the same group.Thank you for clearing that for me. Hope I Have not hurt

you. I have nothing against you personally.I hope you are on the right way and

wish you wellness.

Best regards.

Nil

Peronal/ immunics

I know someone who talked to the founders and it is sorta like a

religion in

the end. There is another system I heard of that may be very similar:

_www.lymefree.com_ (http://www.lymefree.com) Don't know of anyone who

has gone

through either one of them at the moment but I'd be willing to be

brainwashed

by a religion if it meant total cure

In a message dated 9/12/2004 11:24:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, CFSFM

Experimental writes:

If I remember some of us were members of the immunics group for a

while. I

wish to ask you a question. Is the approach of this group has any

relationship

with scientology and/or dianetics?

September 12, 2004

The idea is good and the website has good information if you can sort

through all the extra stuff (just way too much stuff)--which I did,

printed out the basics, which took me about 5 days of going through

the website, which kind of looks like urban/suburban sprawl...

The " cure " videos on the website are not really cure videos and

audios, so much as conversations with people, teaching them how to

test themselves etc...so its not really certain how many and who are

cured.

The system kind of proliferates upon itself, so there are more things

and more things and more things to test and remove etc...I think the

basic info is good and just keep it simple...

It does have a cult aspect, and the guy who seems to be running it,

Bayard , along with former partner Frannie Hora, did head up

other groups that in the past had been referred to by some as " cults "

or quasi new age religions, including something called Direct

Centering in NY in the 70's, which included something called " naked

process " where apparently people got naked; and he also headed up a

group later in New Mexico. However, I guess that is all in the eye

of the beholder, as to what is a religion or what is not. In the case

of immunics, many of them seem truly well-meaning and some are having

success, and I don't see why we can't learn to regulate our own

immune systems through a form of biofeedback. And they do let you

access the entire site for a nominal fee of $9, for the entire year.

So in the end I think it's worthwhile checking it out, just a bit

time consuming.

I also checked on the lymefree.com guy, as someone emailed me about

that recently. I'll give the foudner, Blier, a call to see if

he's up to the same thing, but I also noticed when I googled him that

though on the lymefree site he claims his energetic method, whatever

it is (kept completely vague), is what cured him, you'll find that he

actually went to a Dr. ONgley when he had really bad ankylosing

spondylitis, and this guy does some form of neural therapy, of

injections of slightly irritating substances to help tissues self-

heal. So it is unclear to me why Blier doesn't mention Ongley on his

own site, since he's on the web with a clear testimonial to Ongley's

basically saving his life and not by energetic methods.

These things must be approached with an open, sincere mind as well as

a healthy dose of skepticism about overblown claims.

My ultimate feeling is immunics is an interesting and valid approach

to self-regulation, if one has discipline, but can be done on one's

own so as to avoid some of the " religious " or " cultish " aspects.

>

> I know someone who talked to the founders and it is sorta like a

religion in

> the end. There is another system I heard of that may be very

similar:

> _www.lymefree.com_ (http://www.lymefree.com) Don't know of

anyone who has gone

> through either one of them at the moment but I'd be willing to be

brainwashed

> by a religion if it meant total cure

>

> In a message dated 9/12/2004 11:24:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

CFSFM

> Experimental writes:

>

> If I remember some of us were members of the immunics group for a

while. I

> wish to ask you a question. Is the approach of this group has any

relationship

> with scientology and/or dianetics?

>

September 12, 2004

, in emails to me you said you were 90% better through things

like Kanes phospholipid therapy and other therapies, and

immunics took you the last 10%. Perhaps I " m remembering this

incorrectly, I would appreciate your clarifying it now, thanx.

> ,

> I completely cured myself with Immunics. I had a severe case of

> CFIDS--one year ago I used a wheelchair to go more than a couple of

> blocks, and had confirmed c. pneumonia, HHV-6, EBV, CMV,

neurotoxicity,

> hypercoagulation, etc., the usual plethora of symptoms. Now I am

working

> full-time, jogging, at full mental capacity, etc.

>

> Peronal/ immunics

>

> I know someone who talked to the founders and it is sorta like a

> religion in

> the end. There is another system I heard of that may be very

similar:

> _www.lymefree.com_ (http://www.lymefree.com) Don't know of

anyone who

> has gone

> through either one of them at the moment but I'd be willing to be

> brainwashed

> by a religion if it meant total cure

>

> In a message dated 9/12/2004 11:24:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

CFSFM

> Experimental writes:

>

> If I remember some of us were members of the immunics group for a

> while. I

> wish to ask you a question. Is the approach of this group has any

> relationship

> with scientology and/or dianetics?

>

September 12, 2004

I think they are in part a church because the founder admits himself

in an interview he raised $3.5 million over 7 years, and they take

donations. They are a nonprofit, they consider themselves a

church " saving lives " one at a time. This gives them a mission as

well as nonprofit status...

> ,

>

> I was a member of your group for a while as you know. There is one

thing I have difficulty to understand that why is it stated that this

group has a church? To me concept of religion and therapy of CFS are

two different things. If one says that you need to belong to a church

to be able to learn healing modalities use by that church than this

is an invitation to a church,invitation to a new religion. I also

noticed that the methods you use are kept confidential between the

members. I mean you don't explain those methods in this list. Can

you? Than this is something different for me.Religions are for good

of people and I don't understand why methods are kept secret from

other people. I also think if one wishes to spread a religion than

invitation should directly be done for the religion not to for the

cure of a disease.I joined to your group for learning new methods to

fight CFS but I saw there that I had to belong to a church.That was

not what I was expecting.I was disappointed. If one had mentioned

before that this was a religious group that would be nicer and more

ethical I believe.I am sorry but I think there was something

strange in your group.That is my opinion and I must frankly say

that.The reason I asked about scientology is that I was making a

search about them and I also saw their website that they also

belonged to a church and I needed to know if you both were the same

group.Thank you for clearing that for me. Hope I Have not hurt you.

I have nothing against you personally.I hope you are on the right way

and wish you wellness.

> Best regards.

> Nil

> Peronal/ immunics

>

> I know someone who talked to the founders and it is sorta like a

> religion in

> the end. There is another system I heard of that may be very

similar:

> _www.lymefree.com_ (http://www.lymefree.com) Don't know of

anyone who

> has gone

> through either one of them at the moment but I'd be willing to be

> brainwashed

> by a religion if it meant total cure

>

> In a message dated 9/12/2004 11:24:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

CFSFM

> Experimental writes:

>

> If I remember some of us were members of the immunics group for a

> while. I

> wish to ask you a question. Is the approach of this group has any

> relationship

> with scientology and/or dianetics?

>

September 13, 2004

What is immunics?

Regards, Blake

Crane wrote:

>,

>I completely cured myself with Immunics. I had a severe case of

>CFIDS--one year ago I used a wheelchair to go more than a couple of

>blocks, and had confirmed c. pneumonia, HHV-6, EBV, CMV, neurotoxicity,

>hypercoagulation, etc., the usual plethora of symptoms. Now I am working

>full-time, jogging, at full mental capacity, etc.

>

> Peronal/ immunics

>

>I know someone who talked to the founders and it is sorta like a

>religion in

>the end. There is another system I heard of that may be very similar:

>_www.lymefree.com_ (http://www.lymefree.com) Don't know of anyone who

>has gone

>through either one of them at the moment but I'd be willing to be

>brainwashed

>by a religion if it meant total cure

>

>In a message dated 9/12/2004 11:24:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, CFSFM

>Experimental writes:

>

>If I remember some of us were members of the immunics group for a

>while. I

>wish to ask you a question. Is the approach of this group has any

>relationship

>with scientology and/or dianetics?

>

September 13, 2004

Yes, that's correct. I would change those numbers now, though. Now that

I know/remember what real health is like, I would not say I got to 90%

with traditional medicine--Kane/Speight protocol, growth hormone, etc.

More like 70%. I found immunics after I had done all that, so I can't

say whether or not I could have gotten completely well without those

therapies. It doesn't matter because doing Immunics in no way precludes

you from doing other forms of medicine. In fact, it's a wonderful

adjunct. I would never ever suggest anyone stop doing whatever works. In

my case, I had plateaued at 70-90% recovery and had exhausted my options

with traditional medicine when I came across immunics. So I started

immunics from that point, and after 3 or 4 months my MD (Speight) agreed

that I no longer needed regular visits, though I would go back to him in

a minute if I ever needed him.

Hope this answers your question.

Peronal/ immunics

>

> I know someone who talked to the founders and it is sorta like a

> religion in the end. There is another system I heard of that may be

> very

similar:

> _www.lymefree.com_ (http://www.lymefree.com) Don't know of

anyone who

> has gone

> through either one of them at the moment but I'd be willing to be

> brainwashed

> by a religion if it meant total cure

>

> In a message dated 9/12/2004 11:24:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

CFSFM

> Experimental writes:

>

> If I remember some of us were members of the immunics group for a

> while. I wish to ask you a question. Is the approach of this group

> has any relationship

> with scientology and/or dianetics?

>

September 13, 2004

I think the other recent posts will answer this question. They call it

" a not for profit yoga of immunity. " You can check it out at

www.immunics.org.

Peronal/ immunics

>

>I know someone who talked to the founders and it is sorta like a

>religion in the end. There is another system I heard of that may be

>very similar:

>_www.lymefree.com_ (http://www.lymefree.com) Don't know of anyone

who

>has gone

>through either one of them at the moment but I'd be willing to be

>brainwashed

>by a religion if it meant total cure

>

>In a message dated 9/12/2004 11:24:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, CFSFM

>Experimental writes:

>

>If I remember some of us were members of the immunics group for a

>while. I wish to ask you a question. Is the approach of this group has

>any relationship

>with scientology and/or dianetics?

>

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with

each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any

treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor.

September 13, 2004

Nil,

You raise a very important point, and one which I am afraid I cannot

answer adequately. Peggy addressed this issue, but I'll throw in my 2

cents as well. If Immunics is a church, then it's not one that keeps you

from belonging to any other religion. I am a religious liberal Jew and I

find nothing in Immunics that contradicts any of my beliefs except their

statement that they are a church. But they feel strongly about it--I

just can't quite explain it. To say it's a religious group is like

saying that yoga or meditation are religious groups. Immunics--the

practice of taking conscious control of your immune system--is an innate

human skill which we all possess. We just don't know it yet! We tap into

it all the time--just not consciously. Someday everyone will learn it

from birth just as we now learn how to talk. The " ministry " which

teaches people how to do it could be called a church because they

minister to others and because they have not for profit status.

Personally I believe that once Immunics catches on (which it is bound to

do because it works and is a human ability we simply have to learn how

to access) the " church " will die a natural death, it's function having

come to an end. They do not teach any kind of fundamentalism, hierarchy,

" priesthood " or whatever; there is no bureaucratic structure (just

volunteers who are themselves working on cure) or orthodoxy of belief,

so I don't see the group existing past its usefulness. Having worked

with these people very closely for a year now, I have to say that they

teach 2 things more than any other: ask as many questions as possible

about everything you can think of; and do what works and drop what

doesn't. Now, if that's being too much of a church for you, then you can

wait to try it until you see a lot of folks you like and respect try it

and make it work. Once you see that, you'll feel more comfortable trying

it yourself.

The methods are not secret. The basic techniques are available for free

on the home page in videos which demonstrate how to do it. There are

free groups for specific diseases which help people one on one.

There is a daily time to call-in to get personal help which will cost

you whatever the long distance call costs (in fact, if you want to call,

mention my name and they'll hook us up so I could be on the call with

you--I don't do regular " cure shows " , but I'm available if you set it up

ahead of time). These things alone teach you enough that if you are

curious and persistent you can cure yourself--I worked this way for more

than a year before I got a password to the site. If you want more

information to make your cure go easier (in other words, to piggyback on

what the people before you have already figured out) you can join the

website for $9 a year, waivable if you cannot afford it.

I am very curious why you thought the methods are secret. Since we are

trying to teach the world about this, it's important that the first

impression the website gives is that it's accessible and easy. Could you

tell me what led you to believe that?

Yes there is something strange about this--it actually is free and

available and it actually works and you can try it out and talk with

other people and decide for yourself. No one, no one no one believes it

will work when they first try it. And that's the way it should be.

As Peggy said, if we could sit down face to face, we could teach you in

about 10 minutes how to get started. But given that that information is

free and available on the website, it would be madness to try to retype

the instructions here.

Of course you haven't hurt me. I just want others to be able to find

health as I have--cheaply, and God knows, I had fun doing it, too, which

I never in a million years dreamed was possible.

By the way, I think your skepticism is great! There are so many people

out there trying to take advantage of us--it's important to be

discriminating in how you spend your time/health/money. Sorry this is so

long--I am so deeply thrilled and grateful to be well again that I just

enjoy talking about this.

Re: Peronal/ immunics

,

I was a member of your group for a while as you know. There is one thing

I have difficulty to understand that why is it stated that this group

has a church? To me concept of religion and therapy of CFS are two

different things. If one says that you need to belong to a church to be

able to learn healing modalities use by that church than this is an

invitation to a church,invitation to a new religion. I also noticed that

the methods you use are kept confidential between the members. I mean

you don't explain those methods in this list. Can you? Than this is

something different for me.Religions are for good of people and I don't

understand why methods are kept secret from other people. I also think

if one wishes to spread a religion than invitation should directly be

done for the religion not to for the cure of a disease.I joined to your

group for learning new methods to fight CFS but I saw there that I had

to belong to a church.That was not what I was expecting.I was disappoin!

ted. If one had mentioned before that this was a religious group that

would be nicer and more ethical I believe.I am sorry but I think

there was something strange in your group.That is my opinion and I must

frankly say that.The reason I asked about scientology is that I was

making a search about them and I also saw their website that they also

belonged to a church and I needed to know if you both were the same

group.Thank you for clearing that for me. Hope I Have not hurt you. I

have nothing against you personally.I hope you are on the right way and

wish you wellness.

Best regards.

Nil

Peronal/ immunics

I know someone who talked to the founders and it is sorta like a

religion in

the end. There is another system I heard of that may be very similar:

_www.lymefree.com_ (http://www.lymefree.com) Don't know of anyone

who

has gone

through either one of them at the moment but I'd be willing to be

brainwashed

by a religion if it meant total cure

In a message dated 9/12/2004 11:24:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, CFSFM

Experimental writes:

If I remember some of us were members of the immunics group for a

while. I

wish to ask you a question. Is the approach of this group has any

relationship

with scientology and/or dianetics?

September 13, 2004

Thank you Peggy, and Jill,

I am a person who thinks ways,means( or whatever you say )are as

important as ends. I am careful about approaches,ethics,etc.If I see

something strange there I prefer to stay away. This `church` concept

is confusing. I understand it better after all the explanations you

have given but still not completely clear about it. Thanks

for telling that this church thing is also a mystery to you. Because

I was thinking that you invited us to that group by not telling that

it was run by church initially and I did not find this ethical.So,you

were not also clear about that. Knowing this makes me feel better.

I got the feeling that there were somethings secret,within the

group,not to be told other people. Can not give an exact example for

that. I need to go and check the website but I don't have time now.

There is one more thing that bothers me. Asking questions and getting

answers! I don't think that is so easy. Normal people like us can not

ask questions and get answers from God. This needs long term

spiritual training and enlightening. People do a lot of work,give up

many worldly things to achieve that level.One must be close to a

priest's level to be able to do that. If it was that easy Jesus

Christ would also teach this to his followers and people would heal

themselves.If it is not God answering the questions than what is the

thing that is answering the questions???? I think that is an

important point and we need to think about that.

I must leave the city for a while and I may not be able to answer my

mails for a while. I am sorry for that. I will answer when I am back

and this might take some time.I tried to summarize my points and I

hope it helps someone.

Best regards.

Nil

September 13, 2004

In a message dated 9/13/2004 12:51:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "

Crane " clcrane@... writes:

I just want others to be able to find health as I have--cheaply, and God knows

Ahhh, I knew it was a church...

Janet

btw - The church thing isn't upsetting to me since getting " not-for-profit "

status is so favorable financially to startup an enterprise. If it helps good

people spread the word to heal more people, that's great.

September 13, 2004

Thanx, . That jives more with what I remember.

September 13, 2004

You raise an interesting point, Nil. In that if you " test " yourself,

you may sometimes get incorrect answers. One might " want " a certain

answer, etc. People " test " incorrectly for themselves and others. But

I guess there is enough room for trial and error and mistakes that if

you generally go in the right direction, that's good enough.

September 13, 2004

Hi :

I have been doing it for about a month now. I have been totally off my

antidepressant for about three weeks. It is not a long time so I need to see

how it goes with that. How long to do it each day is something that you can

use immunics to test on. I tend to do it when I need to rather than spending

hours every day. When I first started out I did it for about an hour a

day...split up into little time chunks...but you can also do it while you are

doing other things...I do it while I walk in the evening. Maybe if I spent more

time on it, I would see results faster, but I'm going gradually. I need to

enjoy each plateau of wellness before going to the next I think., Maybe because

I have been sick 15 years. A friend of mine used a specialized radonics program

to get me to where I even wanted to get well and after that had been running for

about a week, I happened on immunics. He is still running the radonics program

so that also has a part in me getting off antidepressants. I hope this helps.

I tend not to be very religious about the time spent with immunics. Getting on

the e-mail list is helpful because it spurs you to do some each day.

Peggy

Could you clue me in as to how long you have been doing this, Peggy?

Approximately how long until you see results? Would it be fair to say

immunics

requires 2 hours a day every day? Does the time one sets aside need to be

totally quiet time or can there be interuptions? Thanks.

September 13, 2004

Hi Peggy,

Did you have difficulty in testing when you started initially on

immunics? I tried for a while last year. I could not test correctly.

At that time I was very sick- bedbound with a lot of brain fogginess.

I want to give it a second try. But wonder why i am unable to test

correctly. My fingers dont move at all for any of teh questions I ask.

When we say " I am connecting to my own inner self to do immunics " -

does that mean, from then on, we are connecting to our spirit in us

(Godly being in us) to do immunics? So after this connection is

established, is all the testing answers being facilitated through our

own inner being?

Doesn't this mean that one has to believe in the existence of this

inner self (spirit, psychic being) in themselves?

Thanks a lot for sharing your experience and thanks to for

bringing immunics to our attention,

Gayu.

> Hi :

>

> I have been doing it for about a month now. I have been totally

off my antidepressant for about three weeks. It is not a long time

so I need to see how it goes with that.

September 13, 2004

Hi Gayu:

I pretty much was able to test right away but I have heard of others that it

took some time. I think if you were very very sick at the time, it would be

good to go back and try again. There is a place in the college that has

alternate means of testing if you are having trouble. The way I use is that I

put my little finger and thumb together on my right hand. my fingers open for

yes and say closed for now. At first I did it they way that he shows on the

video where you hold your hand relaxed and say....I'm now connecting to my own

power to control my immune system. My little finger would jump a little bit

involuntarily, indicating that I had connected. If you use it for nothing else

than bringing yourself into the " calm, clear place " then that is worth a whole

lot I think....especially for those of us who suffer a lot with this and can get

into some pretty scary emotional places.

This system does involve a belief that there are parts of us that are not

physical (spiritual). We are connecting with a higher power or higher Knowing

for answers.

I was llisting to one of the cure shows and a lady got a buzzing in her little

toe and she used that for a yes answer. Just try it and notice what

happens...maybe it will happen different for you. One of Bayard's relatives

uses this and he has only the use of his head. He blinks involuntarily for a

yes answer. So maybe you will have a different indicator.

Maybe some of the more experienced folks can add their thoughts here.

Peggy

The Lowell McNaughton Soap Co.

Peggy Lowell

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