Re: zinc deficiency seen on finger-nails?

[Guest guest]

If that is the latest news, it goes to show how things related to

CFS/FMS go in circles. The first information on this topic that I am

aware of was the result of a poll done by Dr. Jessop.

------

Survey results of Dr. Carol Jessop, MD (1990)

Of 1324 FMS patients surveyed, avg. age 39, 75% female.

87% had Yeast Infections

85% had White spots on nails

Prior to onset of FMS/CFIDS Symptoms:

89% had Irritable Bowel symptoms

80% had constant gas

58% had constipation

89% had recurrent childhood ear, nose, throat infections

========

Every now and then one or two white spots will show up on my nails.

If a spot appears on different nails, assuming that the nails each

finger are growing at a similar rate, comparing the relative

location, distance from the cuticle you will see that each spot

developed at about the same time.

I recall seeing a presentation, I think it was given by Dr. ,

it was on substance P. They had found that in the cerebral spinal

fluid there was an elevation in substance P and there was a

deficiency in zinc. There was no mention whether the deficiency of

the one may have contributed to the excess of the other, or vise

versa.

A few observations I've made related to zinc. Some people using the

FIR sauna will experience some mild depression. Zinc is one mineral

that will be lost during heavy perspiration. (The use of FIR sauna

will help eliminate heavy metals from the body but at the same time

the body is also releasing some elements that you want to be held in

the body, zinc for example.) Anyway, most people that then

supplement zinc find that the depression goes away.

I've been suggesting a water soluble zinc. But one of the highest

food sources for zinc is oysters. Sunflower seeds (use raw) are good

source for zinc and magnesium. I probably eat about 1/4 cup

sunflower seeds daily, have sardines 1X week, on occation some

oysters. No white spots on the nails for some time. (Keep in mind

that I do not have CFS/FMS)

Zinc is one of those minerals that requires HCl in the stomach. So

if a person has too alkaline a stomach they may not be getting as

much zinc from the foods that they do eat. I remember reading one

article that suggests that zinc is also needed for the production of

HCl.

All the best,

Jim

> Good morning!

>

> Has anybody white spots on your nails?

>

> The latest news on immunesupport claim that 85% of cfs/fms-patients

show

> those spots.

>

> It is supposed to be zinc deficiency!?

>

> Has anybody tried zinc-supplement, and the white spots disappeared?

> And especially felt better afterwards?

>

>

> Thanks for your help

> Cheers from Switzerland!

> www.feel.ch

> fox

[Guest guest]

thmicom wrote:

> If that is the latest news, it goes to show how things related to

> CFS/FMS go in circles. The first information on this topic that I am

> aware of was the result of a poll done by Dr. Jessop.

>

> ------

> Survey results of Dr. Carol Jessop, MD (1990)

> Of 1324 FMS patients surveyed, avg. age 39, 75% female.

Jim,

This is a very timely point. Those of us who have followed health research for

decades know that all the things many on this list consider new, brilliant and

'intuitive' are the same recycled

information and theories that have been around and around. When people finally

see them, they assume they are new, but much of what is present today has been

around and around and around in

dizzying cycles for those of us who have been following the information trail

for many years. The first I read about the white spots on the finernails 20 yrs

ago was in Earl Mindells Vitamin Bible,

copyright 1979. Says zinc can get rid of them.

Re: all the lyme discussion and recents attacks on those who don't have drs. in

their area, the symptom profile, finances, or energy to persue it. Having

followed the lyme issue for many many years

now, I have never yet seen a lyme test that is definitive. Some have false negs

and some have false postitives. Seems to me (depending on how much you are

willing to spend) you could persue more

and more tests until you got the results you wanted to see. Lyme has a certain

symptom profile, some of which seems to cross over with CFS, and maybe more with

FM. My CFS started with a massive

tonsil infection, and infection probs ever since. I'm in Oregon, not lyme

country, never been around ticks, never had a rash in my life, didn't have any

joint or other pains until 15 yrs after

illness onset and FM arrived. Had recurring probs with immune system when

younger, I don't fit the profile in any way for lyme as many other CFS'ers do

not. I'm wondering where all the people on

this list are who recovered from lyme treatment mentioned? Except for a limited

break from the unfortunate attacking nature of this list, I've been on it from

the beginning and never seen them!!!!

Could those of you who have had substantial recovery from lyme treatment on this

list please share your stories with us? What were your symptom profiles? What

tests did you have?, what treatment

did you do?, what symptoms did it relieve?, how long have you done treatment,

etc? Altho, this is a CFS list and not a lyme list, I would be interested in

hearing about your recoveries, even tho

my own symptoms point to CFS and FM and not to lyme.

Of course just a few weeks ago on this list 'Candida treatment' was new and

revolutionary to some, another of the first theories to come along (in the EB

era). I remember getting so excited in 1988

(had CFS 10yrs) because I saw a dr on TV talking about CFS and said he'd

discovered the answer, I paid a lot of money for what was one of the first books

ever written on CFS, which was based on

Candida treatment. It was called " What your Dr. Didn't learn in Medical School " ,

by Stuart M. Berger, MD. So for 15 yrs I have watched (including myself) people

not recover from CFS doing Candida

treatment. Then of course I read Crooks series of Candida books over these years

as well. The lyme issue has been around for just as many years....so when you

hear on these lists that information

is 'new' and revolutionary, please do your research and check your sources.

Thanks, Marcia

[Guest guest]

Hi, Fox.

As the other responders to your post have said, the white spot zinc

deficiency in CFIDS has been commented upon for quite a few years.

As Jim noted, absorption of zinc depends on having sufficient

stomach acid. If the stomach acid is low, there will likely be

deficiencies in some other minerals as well, such as iron and

magnesium. Low iron will show up as low ferritin in the blood.

Magnesium is low in CFIDS for several reasons, I think, but one

indicator of it is twitching eyelid muscles. If you have white

spots on your nails, together with low ferritin and twitching

eyelids, I would start to suspect low stomach acid. As you have

probably read, there is a simple test for this, involving putting

one-quarter teaspoon of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) in 8 ounces

of water, and drinking it when you first arise in the morning.

(Sorry, I don't know the equivalent measures that you use in

Switzerland.) Measure the time that elapses before the first burp

(belch). It should be between 2 and 3 minutes. If it is much

shorter, you may have excess stomach acid. If it is much longer,

you are probably low in stomach acid. Betaine HCl can be used to

augment stomach acid.

Rich

> Good morning!

>

> Has anybody white spots on your nails?

>

> The latest news on immunesupport claim that 85% of cfs/fms-

patients show

> those spots.

>

> It is supposed to be zinc deficiency!?

>

> Has anybody tried zinc-supplement, and the white spots disappeared?

> And especially felt better afterwards?

>

>

> Thanks for your help

> Cheers from Switzerland!

> www.feel.ch

> fox

[Guest guest]

Hi Rich

I had a test that showed low ferretin last autumn (under 20) I also had weak

peeling and ridged fingernails and Irritable bowel symptoms. I put two and two

together and tried taking betaine HCL with my meals. I gradually worked up the

amount I take and I now take 7 x 500mg capsules with a meal with no burning.

Anyway, at first I noticed few improvements from the betaine but gradually my

IBS symptoms improved and have now disappeared and in the last month or so I

feel better than I have in 2yrs. Additionally my nails are now stronger - they

are not breaking all the time and the longitudinal ridges have started to

disappear.

I'm still really very unwell but a simple and inexpensive thing like betaine has

made more difference to me than any supplement I have tried. The annoying thing

is I consulted a CFS doctor (expensive) a couple of years ago who assured me my

HCL levels were probably ok even though I had the low ferretin, nail problems

and IBS at the time.

A while ago someone said on the list that we cannot just rely on doctors but

have to be pro-active ourselves - I really think thats true. (yourself excepted

of course - you seem to know CFS back to front)

Re: zinc deficiency seen on finger-nails?

Hi, Fox.

As the other responders to your post have said, the white spot zinc

deficiency in CFIDS has been commented upon for quite a few years.

As Jim noted, absorption of zinc depends on having sufficient

stomach acid. If the stomach acid is low, there will likely be

deficiencies in some other minerals as well, such as iron and

magnesium. Low iron will show up as low ferritin in the blood.

Magnesium is low in CFIDS for several reasons, I think, but one

indicator of it is twitching eyelid muscles. If you have white

spots on your nails, together with low ferritin and twitching

eyelids, I would start to suspect low stomach acid. As you have

probably read, there is a simple test for this, involving putting

one-quarter teaspoon of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) in 8 ounces

of water, and drinking it when you first arise in the morning.

(Sorry, I don't know the equivalent measures that you use in

Switzerland.) Measure the time that elapses before the first burp

(belch). It should be between 2 and 3 minutes. If it is much

shorter, you may have excess stomach acid. If it is much longer,

you are probably low in stomach acid. Betaine HCl can be used to

augment stomach acid.

Rich

> Good morning!

>

> Has anybody white spots on your nails?

>

> The latest news on immunesupport claim that 85% of cfs/fms-

patients show

> those spots.

>

> It is supposed to be zinc deficiency!?

>

> Has anybody tried zinc-supplement, and the white spots disappeared?

> And especially felt better afterwards?

>

>

> Thanks for your help

> Cheers from Switzerland!

> www.feel.ch

> fox

[Guest guest]

,

I'm glad to hear that you figured this out and experienced so much

improvement from the betaine HCl. I hope the improvement continues.

Thanks for the compliment, and I just wish it were really true! I

do think we are all making progress in our understanding of CFS,

though, and I very much appreciate input such as you just supplied,

because it gives me more confidence that some of these things that

seem to make theoretical sense really do apply in practice as well.

Rich

> > Good morning!

> >

> > Has anybody white spots on your nails?

> >

> > The latest news on immunesupport claim that 85% of cfs/fms-

> patients show

> > those spots.

> >

> > It is supposed to be zinc deficiency!?

> >

> > Has anybody tried zinc-supplement, and the white spots

disappeared?

> > And especially felt better afterwards?

> >

> >

> > Thanks for your help

> > Cheers from Switzerland!

> > www.feel.ch

> > fox

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Rich,

I also have problems with low ferritin and when I have to take iron

supplements is when I start to get white spots on my little

fingernail and also on the finger next to it (on my right hand

only). Iron supplementation interferes with the absorption of

zinc.

I took Betaine 700mg 6-9 caps a day for years and this did not help

with absorption at all.

Now that I've had my recents done that prove very low in the energy

cycle (low ATP) I now understand what Jim explains:

" The parietal cells in the stomach that produce the HCl

have very large demands for ATP (lots of mitochondria in these cells)

alkaline blood tends to hold onto oxygen and the mitochondria need

oxygen to produce ATP. Without ATP the parietal cell does not have

the energy to make HCl " .

So taking excessive amounts of Betaine is a waste, for me anyways.

Nat

[Guest guest]

Hi, Nat.

I find this puzzling. Iron and zinc do not compete for the same

transporters in the gut, and are not absorbed in the same parts of

the gut. It may be that there is an oxidation-reduction reaction

going on between the two, which renders the zinc less absorbable in

your case when a lot of iron is present.

You mentioned that betaine HCl has not been helpful in your case.

This suggests that it's not simply a problem of low stomach acid.

I'm starting to wonder about the possibility of celiac disease

(nontropical sprue) in your case. It might be worthwhile to get the

endomysial antibody test for this, if you haven't already had it.

The gold standard test for celiac disease is an endoscopic

examination, but the antibody test would be easier.

If your small intestine looks alright structurally, then I think the

next step would be to get a breath test for H. pylori to see if that

has come back. If so, it should be treated again. Either way, I

think the next step would be to try Dr. Corsello's bowel treatment

protocol, since you have reported having gas production and some

irregularities on tests of your bowel flora.

After this, I would suggest running the bicarbonate test for stomach

acid to see for sure whether or not you have low stomach acid. If

it is low, I would suggest using betaine HCl again, even though it

didn't seem to help before, and in addition to take Wobenzyme-N

digestive enzymes with meals. I would also suggest taking a high-

potency general nutritional supplement such as Sparx, which has

enough of all the minerals, as well as the vitamins and other things.

I'm hopeful that a comprehensive approach like this will get your

absorption of nutrients up to where it should be, so that your amino

acid levels and low Krebs intermediates will be corrected.

Rich

> Hi Rich,

>

> I also have problems with low ferritin and when I have to take

iron

> supplements is when I start to get white spots on my little

> fingernail and also on the finger next to it (on my right hand

> only). Iron supplementation interferes with the absorption of

> zinc.

> I took Betaine 700mg 6-9 caps a day for years and this did not

help

> with absorption at all.

>

> Now that I've had my recents done that prove very low in the

energy

> cycle (low ATP) I now understand what Jim explains:

> " The parietal cells in the stomach that produce the HCl

> have very large demands for ATP (lots of mitochondria in these

cells)

> alkaline blood tends to hold onto oxygen and the mitochondria need

> oxygen to produce ATP. Without ATP the parietal cell does not have

> the energy to make HCl " .

>

> So taking excessive amounts of Betaine is a waste, for me anyways.

>

>

> Nat

[Guest guest]

Hi Rich,

I've read on several sites that taking iron supplements does

interfere with zinc absorption. I agree with you that there is also

something else going on in my case.

http://www.cc.nih.gov/ccc/supplements/zinc.html

Zinc and iron absorption

Iron deficiency anemia is considered a serious public health problem

in the world today. Iron fortification programs were developed to

prevent this deficiency, and they have been credited with improving

the iron status of millions of women, infants, and children. Some

researchers have questioned the effect of iron fortification on

absorption of other nutrients, including zinc. Fortification of foods

with iron does not significantly affect zinc absorption. However,

large amounts of iron in supplements (greater than 25 mg) may

decrease zinc absorption, as can iron in solutions (2, 33). Taking

iron supplements between meals will help decrease its effect on zinc

absorption (33).

On my OxyMark report regarding the Urinary Organic Acids test they do

mention on 2 occassions that I should have my ferritin assessed.

1)The conversion from Citrate via cis-aconitate to isotcitrateis an

iron dependent step. Further conversion from isocitrate to a-

ketoglutarate is specifically dependent on B3, manganese and

magnesium. Ferritin should be assessed.

2)The conversion from succinate to fumerate is B2 and iron dependent.

Ferritin levels should be assessed.

Rich can you read into what this means?

I also had a customized formula made for me that reflects my test

results. This is only a small part of my treatment to help improve

the altered and depleted ability of my body to process energy and my

doctor is going to address the primary metabolic issues from here.

They mentioned AMP (Adenosine monophosphate), Enada/NADH, injected

glutathione, more magnesium, ascorbic acid, dexpanthol and thiamine.

Plus we have to address the hormonal issues too. :-)

I'm going to continue HBCM and probably start Sparx too.

According to my report they also mention low a-ketoglutarate values

can be an underlying cause for disbalances in the amino acids panel.

PRO EPA was recommended for my low Essential Fatty Acids tests.

Here is what my custom formula contains. I have to take 17 capsules

a day and I take this for 2 months. It's high in Niacinamide.

17 capsules contain:

Folic Acid 1mg

Vitamin A 3000 IU

Beta-Carotene 6000 IU

Vitamin C 1000mg

Vitamin D 2000mg

Vitamin E 600 IU

Thiamin 4.5mg

Riboflavin 4.5mg

Niacin 5.6mg

Niacinamide 2000mg (!!)

Vitamin B6 60mg

Vitamin B12 100cg

Pantothenic Acid 150mg

Calcium 500mg

Iron 2.8mg

Magnesium 180mg

Selinium 75 mcg

Manganese 2.7mg

Chromonin 102 mcg

Potassium 30mg

Molybdeunum 74 mcg

L-Methionine 15mg

Inositol 75mg

Choline Cilydrogen Citrate 325mg

Pancreatic Enzymes 30mg

PABA 75mg

Bioflavinoids 180mg

Glutathione 75mg

COQ10 60mg

Betaine HCL 100mg

Glutamic Acid 30mg

Bromelain 4.2mg

Papain 4.2mg

Lipoic Acid 30mg

N-acetyl-glucosamine 1000mg

OX bile 600mg

Mixed carotenoids 400mg

a-ketoglutarate 1000mg

Copper 1mg

Whew. I also had my copper and ceruloplasmin tested for 's

disease. No one mentioned Celiac disease but I will bring it up

next visit.

Thanks for all your info :-)

Nat

[Guest guest]

Hi, Nat.

> Hi Rich,

>

> I've read on several sites that taking iron supplements does

> interfere with zinc absorption. I agree with you that there is

also

> something else going on in my case.

>

> http://www.cc.nih.gov/ccc/supplements/zinc.html

>

> Zinc and iron absorption

> Iron deficiency anemia is considered a serious public health

problem

> in the world today. Iron fortification programs were developed to

> prevent this deficiency, and they have been credited with

improving

> the iron status of millions of women, infants, and children. Some

> researchers have questioned the effect of iron fortification on

> absorption of other nutrients, including zinc. Fortification of

foods

> with iron does not significantly affect zinc absorption. However,

> large amounts of iron in supplements (greater than 25 mg) may

> decrease zinc absorption, as can iron in solutions (2, 33). Taking

> iron supplements between meals will help decrease its effect on

zinc

> absorption (33).

O.K., thanks for this information. Since I wrote you, I have found

some evidence that iron and zinc may have a transporter in common,

but apparently this is not yet well understood. In any case, we

can't argue with your observation.

>

> On my OxyMark report regarding the Urinary Organic Acids test they

do

> mention on 2 occasions that I should have my ferritin assessed.

> 1)The conversion from Citrate via cis-aconitate to isotcitrateis

an

> iron dependent step. Further conversion from isocitrate to a-

> ketoglutarate is specifically dependent on B3, manganese and

> magnesium. Ferritin should be assessed.

> 2)The conversion from succinate to fumerate is B2 and iron

dependent.

> Ferritin levels should be assessed.

>

> Rich can you read into what this means?

Yes. What they are saying is that some of the results of your

urinary organic acids test could be explained by low activity of

certain enzymes that convert one to another. These enzymes require

iron to function properly. Thus, their apparent low activity may

result from an iron deficiency. If there is an iron deficiency, it

should show up as low ferritin, because ferritin stores excess iron

in the body. Hence, they recommend that ferritin be measured.

>

> I also had a customized formula made for me that reflects my test

> results. This is only a small part of my treatment to help

improve

> the altered and depleted ability of my body to process energy and

my

> doctor is going to address the primary metabolic issues from here.

>

> They mentioned AMP (Adenosine monophosphate), Enada/NADH,

injected

> glutathione, more magnesium, ascorbic acid, dexpanthol and

thiamine.

> Plus we have to address the hormonal issues too. :-)

>

> I'm going to continue HBCM and probably start Sparx too.

>

> According to my report they also mention low a-ketoglutarate

values

> can be an underlying cause for disbalances in the amino acids

panel.

>

> PRO EPA was recommended for my low Essential Fatty Acids tests.

> Here is what my custom formula contains. I have to take 17

capsules

> a day and I take this for 2 months. It's high in Niacinamide.

> 17 capsules contain:

>

> Folic Acid

1mg

> Vitamin A 3000

IU

> Beta-Carotene 6000 IU

> Vitamin C 1000mg

> Vitamin D 2000mg

> Vitamin E 600 IU

> Thiamin 4.5mg

> Riboflavin 4.5mg

> Niacin 5.6mg

> Niacinamide 2000mg (!!)

> Vitamin B6

60mg

> Vitamin B12 100cg

> Pantothenic Acid 150mg

> Calcium 500mg

> Iron 2.8mg

> Magnesium 180mg

> Selinium 75 mcg

> Manganese 2.7mg

> Chromonin 102 mcg

> Potassium 30mg

> Molybdeunum 74 mcg

> L-Methionine 15mg

> Inositol 75mg

> Choline Cilydrogen Citrate 325mg

> Pancreatic Enzymes 30mg

> PABA 75mg

> Bioflavinoids 180mg

> Glutathione 75mg

> COQ10 60mg

> Betaine HCL 100mg

> Glutamic Acid 30mg

> Bromelain 4.2mg

> Papain 4.2mg

> Lipoic Acid 30mg

> N-acetyl-glucosamine 1000mg

> OX bile 600mg

> Mixed carotenoids 400mg

> a-ketoglutarate 1000mg

> Copper 1mg

>

> Whew. I also had my copper and ceruloplasmin tested for 's

> disease. No one mentioned Celiac disease but I will bring it up

> next visit.

Sounds pretty comprehensive. I hope it helps. I don't know why the

niacinamide level is so high. I think it would be a good idea to

coordinate your whole collection of supplements with your doctor,

because taking this special formula plus the HBCM plus Sparx may

push you too high in some of the nutrients that show toxicity when

their levels are too high.

>

> Thanks for all your info :-)

> Nat

You're welcome.

Rich

[Guest guest]

hi

i was unable to tolearte oral zinc suppliments due to stomach promblems

and have been on 2cc im zinc once monthly for years(thought my copper levels

are low seconddary to zinc intake im )

i only noticed in the past three years that i have less white spots on my

nails as other things started to get slightly better ( detox alittle better,

less tempearatures , bovine growth factors( low maintenace dose now using the

tlm natcell ones : cheaper ) and was on but stopped growth hormone

secreatgog : not my decison but not due to side effects etc.)

so even though i remain malnoursihed i am probably slightly less so know and

am gaining weight but i lost the war to this dd years ago.

somish.

[Guest guest]

I've missed some of this thread, but zinc must be balanced with

copper. Actually, it's the zinc/copper/iron triangle that's

important, but most people miss the copper altogether. I'm

hypothryoid, and zinc is usually indicated, but I react badly to it,

getting very hyper type symptoms waking me at night, making me hot,

heart racing, etc. Unfortunately, it's not the type of hyper that

creates a balancing effect, enabling me to reduce thyroid meds. So I

have to work with zinc very cautiously, even though I know from hair

analysis that I'm deficient. Has Jim weighed in yet, on high zinc

foods? Might try that and watch for reaction. I can always tell when

I'm deficient as I will have a very immediate effect with a

supplement. Chromium after a few days kills all carb cravings, things

like that.

penny

> hi

> i was unable to tolearte oral zinc suppliments due to stomach

promblems

> and have been on 2cc im zinc once monthly for years(thought my

copper levels

> are low seconddary to zinc intake im )

>