Re: Inclusion .. the dream .. or the adult reality

[Guest guest]

okay, for those of you who are stuck on the word racism, I may have chosen

the wrong word, what I mean is that if you put your child only with special

needs, the potential for learning is less than if you put your child with

non disabled, anyone can gain knowledge, it is all dependant upon the level

of knowledge that is around them. If you shelter anyone the potential is a

lot less than if you broaden the horizons for which anyone can learn from.

Hope this helps everyone to understand.

Thanks Kathy

sherri Mom to Tayler 3 1/2 ds and Cierra 2

From: > HI Hope

>

> I dont think she meant only in education, i think she meant to segregate

your

> child in ALL walks of life whould resemble racism. I reread her post and

it

> didnt meantion reg ed shoot we all know as parents that we choose the

> placement AFTER goals and objectives are wrote up, then we decide as

> Individuals what is appropriate for our childs leanring style But

please

> believe me when i say I have seen total segregation in some kids who live

> here, no association with the nda population and parents like myslef who

feel

> differently are shunned................what would one call this?

>

> Kathy mom to Sara 10.....playing psychic this morning lol Im sure Sherri

will

> explain her own post

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> well said.

Hope

>

>

> We can all argue forever over best methods and placements, when we

> should be

> agreeing on supporting each others right to CHOOSE what WE WANT for our

> children education.

> Cheryl in VA

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/15/02 6:24:32 AM Central Standard Time,

drf218@... writes:

>

>

>

> Sitting here in Canada and reading all this about inclusion and non

> inclusion, I came up with a thought( just thought I would share it with

> everyone) There are many people of different races, so if you put your

> child

> with only special needs, then you yourself must be racist. Sherri mom to

> Tayler 3 1/2 ds and Cierra nds

>

> I think " racist " is just a poor choice of words here. Don't we all

> know what she means? Just a different form of prejudice. I don't agree

> but I know what she means. Jessie

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/15/2002 2:25:48 PM Central Standard Time,

KVanRyzin@... writes:

> > the potential for learning is less than if you put your child with

> > non disabled, anyone can gain knowledge, it is all dependent upon the

> level

> > of knowledge that is around them.

>

> Kathy,

> I disagree with this. I could put into a room full of geniuses or a

> regular ed. classroom and that isn't going to teach him to read. To learn

> reading it works for him (I'm not generalizing to others here) to be in a

> room with only 4 other students (or less) all working on the same level.

> That

> is 's need. Not the need of the school district or some advocate.

> On the other hand learning to sing songs works best for him if he is in a

> group of kids that all know the words and sing the same songs many times.

> (reg. ed. music class works for him).

> I think I understand your statement. But, I've seen many exceptions to what

> you say.

> I want to be with good role models. Sometimes those role-models may

> be

> non-disabled and other times they may be disabled.

> Someone that I constantly hold up as a role model for my son is Matt, my

> wonderful acquaintance at the grocery store that bags my groceries. If

>

> can grow to have many of the qualities that Matt has I will be a very happy

> person. Oh yes, Matt has Ds.

> Here is a question. When we say that we don't want our child " lumped " with

> others with disabilities are we saying that the disabled group or even

> individuals are of less value than a non-disabled group?

>

> Karyn

HI Karyn

Heehee thanks for giving me credit for this post lol but I didn't write it,

Sherri just thanked me at the end of her post so I can see where the

confusion is

Now as far as placement decisions they must INDIVIDUALIZED to one child,

during one year what works well for one might not work well for

another....tooooo many variables can influence this. My biggest craw is why

some say Reg Ed is not a place for learning for some/all kids. What makes the

sped room this magic place? I joke and call it the magic room because some

believe magic happens there

I know at one IEP meeting I went to, in fact this meeting decided Sara fate

for Reg Ed I asked the team what curriculum would be used for Sara? Very

rudely they told me Sara's IEP is her curriculum. I was like what no talk of

Tennessee?, no facts to be taught about her community? no concepts except for

what was wrote on her IEP? I thought no room for incidental learning, no

exposure to language itself. I sat there very quietly thinking is this what I

want for Sara, is this what she really needs......hours of learning to rote

count, flashcards, and silly songs not that these are not good teaching

methods but who will tell teach her vocabulary that is needed for outside of

this magic room? the world at her level, how will she learn this? So I sat

straight up and said " Nope, Sara will go to Kindy, she will go to her home

school, if she struggles in this BIG class, we will meet again and discuss

what supports she needs " The rest is history and we've altered her placement

a bit to meet her needs and the schools lol Sara is learning about her state,

she learned last week what congress does and she's made up her own Laws for

here at home lol I do have her pulled out for reading and math, I don't see

her Reg Ed teacher meeting her needs in this area. Next year who knows, I

have 2 months to evaluate and make a decision.

Oooh please look carefully at the Sped rooms in your schools, what role

models will they have? speech and behavior is one of the top reasons we limit

her magic room time. In fact this year we are seeing more positive behaviors

and age appropriate language since I cut back on the pull out time reading

and math skills are progressing at the same speed.....so more time is not

needed in the sped room.

Kathy mom to Sara 10......guessing this wont be posted till Sunday heehee

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/15/02 7:40:17 AM Central Standard Time,

b4alltoday@... writes:

> But please

> believe me when i say I have seen total segregation in some kids who live

> here, no association with the nda population and parents like myslef who

> feel

> differently are shunned................what would one call this?

>

> Kathy mom to Sara 10.....playing psychic this morning lol Im sure Sherri

> will

> explain her own post

>

oh, yes, parents of kids in trainable classes thought I was crazy not

to put in their " wonderful school " . I guess they thought I was

snubbing them or something. But they were getting NO academics, just working

toward the sheltered workshop eventually, starting young. I wasn't exactly

shunned, I didn't see much of them anyway, but they definitely thought I was

wrong. Jessie

[Guest guest]

Sherri.........I attended a Dave Hingsburger conference today, and he said

the same thing..........so maybe all of you Canadians think alike??? Must be

the cold northern air or something!

Di...........the analogy is NOT silly if you understand how it is being

used......

Forcing people to associate only with " their own kind " is a form of " racism " .

The force and lack of choice is the issue. Of course people with

disabilities have a right to associate with other people with disabilities.

And of course they also have a right to associate with people without

disabilities. In actual fact, they have a right to associate with anyone

that they want to.........and should be given the opportunity to be in

situations where they can make these decisions. If your child learns best

in a self-contained classroom, then that's where they should be........but

you then have the responsibility to give them opportunities to meet people

different from them in other contexts. Likewise, I think that if your child

is in a fully inclusive school placement, and doesn't have the opportunity to

meet other kids with a disability, then you have the responsibility to give

them opportunities to meet people with developmental delays in other

contexts.

In his book " Just Say Know " (which I highly recommend, by the way.....), Dave

Hingsburger makes the point that " we need to educate people with disabilities

about people with disabilities. We need to encourage them to accept

themselves and others like them. We need to put as much energy into teaching

people with disabilities that they have value as we do any community member. "

I'm sure I haven't articulated this well, but Sherri, I understand where

you're coming from.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/15/2002 9:30:26 PM Eastern Standard Time,

b4alltoday@... writes:

> Oooh please look carefully at the Sped rooms in your schools, what role

> models will they have? speech and behavior is one of the top reasons we

> limit

> her magic room time. In fact this year we are seeing more positive

> behaviors

> and age appropriate language since I cut back on the pull out time

> reading

> and math skills are progressing at the same speed.....so more time is not

> needed in the sped room.

>

Kathy, you have hit upon such an important issue. Our magic rooms have no

text books, (just workbooks) no globes, no maps, no curriculum (whatever

teacher chooses is the curriculum) We are involved in starting a task force

to rectify this situation. Does anyone else have kids in self contained

where they go on field trips to Mcs (teaches them money skills ...

couldn't they order in the school cafeteria?) or bowling in the middle of

the day (when no one else is in the bowling alley) ... in fact we wonder all

the time if bowling is some coded activity for kids with DS ! ;-)

Cheryl in VA

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/15/2002 8:56:17 PM Central Standard Time, Wildwards

writes:

> Kathy, you have hit upon such an important issue. Our magic rooms have no

> text books, (just workbooks) no globes, no maps, no curriculum (whatever

> teacher chooses is the curriculum) We are involved in starting a task

> force to rectify this situation. Does anyone else have kids in self

> contained where they go on field trips to Mcs (teaches them money

> skills ... couldn't they order in the school cafeteria?) or bowling in the

> middle of the day (when no one else is in the bowling alley) ... in fact we

> wonder all the time if bowling is some coded activity for kids with DS !

> ;-)

> Cheryl in VA

HI Cheryl

I guess the reason I sound soooo disappointed concerning Sara's sped room is

the curriculum our Sped teacher chooses, nah that's not fair, the

administrators could have chose it.

Sara is 10, loves Brittany Spears, Kate and ...sometimes watches

movies that are NOT appropriate for her (she learned how to work the remote

at a young age lol) but if you sit and observe the " expanded resource " class

you would think Sara was in preschool. It's a very pretty room, walls filled

with color, your typical suburbia type of room. I guess trying to teach

grades Kindy through 5th grade is tough but I see the tools geared for the

young kids.

Sara's teacher last year...the one who couldn't stand it anymore and quit did

let Sara have a Brittany Spears poster in class. Attached to it was behavior

tokens.....this helped but the poster is history this year I must say I do

love the assistants working with Sara, they have taken the time to get to

know her and use her likes to motivate her heehee they even talk teenage

slang with her.

Kathy mom to Sara 10

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/15/2002 8:57:21 PM Central Standard Time,

wildwards@... writes:

> Does anyone else have kids in self contained

> where they go on field trips to Mcs (teaches them money skills ...

> couldn't they order in the school cafeteria?)

Not here Cheryl....there is only one menu no alacarte type of thing, tho the

hs does have salad bars at times. Also the payment system is completely

computerizd with the meal being deducted from the students lunch account.

They can't even buy a cookie with cash it comes out of their lunch account.

:-) But doesn't go to mcd's during school. Unless it is something

like an end ofthe year field trip to dairy queen for the sped class...that's

about the only one they go on.

Now she does have money to buy P.A.R, (popcorn at recess) I send in a few

quarters and she gets to purchase it on the fridays that the 5th graders sell

it. (fundraiser for their stay at Eagle Bluff).. Tho how anyone can eat

popcorn right after lunch is beyond me. hehe

Joy

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/15/2002 8:57:21 PM Central Standard Time,

wildwards@... writes:

> or bowling in the middle of

> the day (when no one else is in the bowling alley) ...

Oh this....in phy. ed. in jr/hs they have a bowling unit and jump on a school

bus and travel to Plainview to the bowling alley. Of course this is all the

students and there is no one else in the bowling alley except their class.

:-) (but yes Cheryl I do know what you're saying hehehe)

Joy

[Guest guest]

> Oooh please look carefully at the Sped rooms in your schools, what role

> models will they have? speech and behavior is one of the top reasons we

> limit

> her magic room time

When I was getting ready to move Maverick from preschool to kindergarten, I

was also babysitting for the sp ed teacher. She would come over every noon

to breast feed her baby. We would talk. I told her of my hopes for

Maverick's future and WHY I had concerns about the sp ed room. They were so

busy dealing with behaviors, and when I asked them what program they used to

teach reading, they said, " TEACH READING?? " Well, I shared my concerns at

with this teacher and at the IEP meeting, she stated, " doesn't want

Maverick in my classroom because she is afraid he'll learn to be retarded. "

I told her she had crossed the lines of friendship and the meeting was ended.

It wasn't that I didn't want Maverick around other sp needs kids...it was

that I wanted him to get an education that he could NOT get in that room.

You DO have to know what you are getting in each setting and make sure it

works for your child!!

[Guest guest]

No Di, What I think is meant is that discrimination against people with a

different race is the same as discrimination against people with

disabilities. Discrimination is discrimination. If people get poor

treatment because they are different, that is bad. Cheryl pointed out that

it is terribly important that we as parents of kids with disabilities

support each other's educational choices whether it be self-contained or

not. I agree wholeheartedly with that. I just don't want some arbitrary

" society " taking that decision out of my hands because of prejudice.

Elaine

Re: Inclusion .. the dream .. or the adult reality

>

>

> Sitting here in Canada and reading all this about inclusion and non

> inclusion, I came up with a thought( just thought I would share it with

> everyone) There are many people of different races, so if you put your

child

> with only special needs, then you yourself must be racist. Sherri mom to

> Tayler 3 1/2 ds and Cierra nds

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The self contained class room in our building does exactly the same thing.

Lots of trips to Mc's, and bowling all the time. Every afternoon they

watch disney movies. This is why I have told them I do not want Kaitlyn in

there. No verbal role models and all these field trips. Kaitlyn can order

for herself at Mcs already, and we take her bowling with the family

and friends. Darcy

Re: Inclusion .. the dream .. or the adult reality

>In a message dated 3/15/2002 9:30:26 PM Eastern Standard Time,

>b4alltoday@... writes:

>

>

>> Oooh please look carefully at the Sped rooms in your schools, what role

>> models will they have? speech and behavior is one of the top reasons we

>> limit

>> her magic room time. In fact this year we are seeing more positive

>> behaviors

>> and age appropriate language since I cut back on the pull out time

>> reading

>> and math skills are progressing at the same speed.....so more time is not

>> needed in the sped room.

>>

>

> Kathy, you have hit upon such an important issue. Our magic rooms have

no

>text books, (just workbooks) no globes, no maps, no curriculum (whatever

>teacher chooses is the curriculum) We are involved in starting a task

force

>to rectify this situation. Does anyone else have kids in self contained

>where they go on field trips to Mcs (teaches them money skills ...

>couldn't they order in the school cafeteria?) or bowling in the middle of

>the day (when no one else is in the bowling alley) ... in fact we wonder

all

>the time if bowling is some coded activity for kids with DS ! ;-)

>Cheryl in VA

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

no, it is not the northern air, it is the way canadians are, we believe in

including our children, whether disabled or not in everything that we do.

Look how many canadians showed up doen in the states when you were in a time

of need, we believe in helping others and when including your children in a

environment filled with different cultures, disabilities and non

disabilities, you are showing your children the same things, helping others

and they help our dhildren as well. Sherri mom to Tayler 3 1/2 wds and

Cierra

P.s. My son at three yea5rs old is in preschool with non disabled children

and is at the same stage as they are, he has a non disabled sister who has

taught him to do alot of things that he probably would bnot have done if she

was not here.

Re: Inclusion .. the dream .. or the adult reality

> Sherri.........I attended a Dave Hingsburger conference today, and he said

> the same thing..........so maybe all of you Canadians think alike??? Must

be

> the cold northern air or something!

>

> Di...........the analogy is NOT silly if you understand how it is being

> used......

>

> Forcing people to associate only with " their own kind " is a form of

" racism " .

> The force and lack of choice is the issue. Of course people with

> disabilities have a right to associate with other people with

disabilities.

> And of course they also have a right to associate with people without

> disabilities. In actual fact, they have a right to associate with anyone

> that they want to.........and should be given the opportunity to be in

> situations where they can make these decisions. If your child learns

best

> in a self-contained classroom, then that's where they should be........but

> you then have the responsibility to give them opportunities to meet people

> different from them in other contexts. Likewise, I think that if your

child

> is in a fully inclusive school placement, and doesn't have the opportunity

to

> meet other kids with a disability, then you have the responsibility to

give

> them opportunities to meet people with developmental delays in other

> contexts.

>

> In his book " Just Say Know " (which I highly recommend, by the way.....),

Dave

> Hingsburger makes the point that " we need to educate people with

disabilities

> about people with disabilities. We need to encourage them to accept

> themselves and others like them. We need to put as much energy into

teaching

> people with disabilities that they have value as we do any community

member. "

>

> I'm sure I haven't articulated this well, but Sherri, I understand where

> you're coming from.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

We had a very sad case here some years ago. The little boy with DS

was also almost deaf and was finally fitted with hearing aids. To start

with, his mother was nutty as a fruitcake. The person she considered her

best friend couldn't stand her and she almost drove me nuts on the phone for

a few years. But also the father was ashamed of the child, and even more so

of the hearing aids. He wouldn't allow the child to wear them in public and

especially around his family. I haven't heard f rom the mother for several

years, which is a blessing, but have wondered about the boy.

Jessie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/15/02 8:29:12 PM Central Standard Time, B4alltoday

writes:

> Oooh please look carefully at the Sped rooms in your schools, what role

> models will they have? speech and behavior is one of the top reasons we

> limit her magic room time. In fact this year we are seeing more positive

> behaviors and age appropriate language since I cut back on the pull out

> time reading and math skills are progressing at the same speed.....so

> more time is not needed in the sped room.

>

> Kathy mom to Sara 10......guessing this wont be posted till Sunday heehee

Kathy,

has a very difficult time with the stimulation of the reg. ed.

classroom. THis has been an area that has been worked on since first grade.

When we increase the reg. ed. classroom time the behavior increases. Even

with supports. Each child is definitely individual.

He certainly needs his sp. ed. room but I know what you mean. There are many

sp. ed. rooms in our district that I wouldn't allow them to place him in.

Some of them don't plan on ever educating our children just keeping them for

the day or week.

Karyn

[Guest guest]

Re: Inclusion .. the dream .. or the adult reality

> In a message dated 3/15/02 11:12:12 AM Central Standard Time,

> sherriwalthers@... writes:

>

>

> > the potential for learning is less than if you put your child with

> > non disabled, anyone can gain knowledge, it is all dependant upon the

level

> > of knowledge that is around them.

In my daughter's case, she is learning less in a regular ed. environment

than

she did when she was homeschooled. (a form of special education and

definately separation from reg. peers) It is hard for her to learn new

conceptual content in a noisy classroom, but she tries anyway. What she is

learning are social graces. She also wants to be around other girls her age

on

a regular basis. (She has three brothers at home)

I honestly feel that going to school is sacrificing academic skill for

social skill.

No situation is ideal and each child's needs are different I came to the

conclusion that there was more to life than

excelling in math and knowing your math facts. That is why she is in

school.

>