Re: Inclusion .. the dream .. or the adult reality

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/14/2002 7:34:29 PM Central Standard Time,

rdill@... writes:

> As adults (I'm dealing with that), the separation is really great. The

> NH kids are into careers, marriages, parties, families, and even

> divorce. Our kids can be included, but they are included on the side

> not in the main tent.

HI Rick

Hate to say this Rick but Ive seen separation/segregation in the disability

circles as well. At some group functions (SO was one of them) the kids

separated by functioning levels, kids with weak verbal skills stood alone,

kids in wheel chairs were alone unless you count their supervisory person

near by. It's fact, in all circles some stand alone...be it the NDA world or

the disabled world. All we can do as parents is go by what our child needs,

what they cry out for or gravitate towards....in Sara's case she tends to

zoom in on typical peers or older kids with disabilities or BOYS heehee

If I want society to accept Sara then they need the chance to get to know

her. Maybe she's the dummy in the class, I disagree with this thinking since

more and more kids are being noticed as needing different teaching styles but

hey Ill bite. I do know Sara has strengths and abilities that other kids

don't have and as she's gotten older, the NDA population has seen this too.

She is not the pity case nor are her peers patronizing her........she has

self worth that is recognized and year by year more are accepting as she is

accepting toward others

Heehee another with strong opinions.........now we know where Sara gets it

from lol

Kathy mom to Sara 10

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/14/2002 10:59:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,

b4alltoday@... writes:

> Hate to say this Rick but Ive seen separation/segregation in the disability

> circles as well. At some group functions (SO was one of them) the kids

> separated by functioning levels, kids with weak verbal skills stood alone,

> kids in wheel chairs were alone unless you count their supervisory person

> near by. It's fact, in all circles some stand alone...be it the NDA world

> or

> the disabled world. All we can do as parents is go by what our child needs,

> what they cry out for or gravitate towards....in Sara's case she tends to

> zoom in on typical peers or older kids with disabilities or BOYS heehee

Well, stand by Kathy, cuz she ain't gonna change!! My Stef still gravitates

towards boys!! ;-) She is doing powerlifting for SO at a very well known

local gym and honey, the motivation to lift those weights is ever so higher

when the good looking men come help out! ;-) Last week she was lifting 70

lbs in three different style lifts!!

I have very mixed feelings (and some different ones) than what has been

expressed on this topic. Our experiences appears to be different. Tonight

my daughter went to watch a play at school. I dropped her off because she

was meeting some NH friends to watch the play with. I picked her up when it

was over ... well, she came out in the parking lot and found me reading in my

car. Many of the kids she knows with DS are much less mature than she and on

a different social plane. She accepts all regardless but has difficulty at

times dealing with the immaturity. I will not force her to spend her time

with anyone just because they share a disability. That makes no sense to me.

Cheryl in VA

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/14/2002 9:35:13 PM Central Standard Time, huie@...

writes:

> Yes, I agree with this definitely. I have seen this separation with a

> friend who is grown now. She keeps in touch with nda peers, but told her

> mom recently that " it just isn't like it used to be " .

HI Sharon

I can only go on my experiences and what Ive seen so correct me if I'm wrong

but havent most of you (parents) seperated from your HS chums? Heehee I

haven't talked to mine in what no I wont say heehee but yearsssssssssssss and

just recently we got in contact through the alumni pages and I too agree its

not the same. Anyway from my experiences Im guessing Sara will have many

friends who come and go through her life, some special friends will leave and

new will arrive. Letting her have NDA friends now will in no way deter her

from have special need friends later in fact if she can put up with the

typical teen groups she can be tolerant of anyone

I take every day for what it brings, I will help Sara along the way, to

developed her potential but I will also let her individuality come through

whenever it wants Before I get upset or fret over her losing friends I

know more will come a knocking...........its just in her personality heehee

Kathy mom to Sara 10...........who has shared her gift of making friends, now

my life is richer

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/14/2002 9:49:57 PM Central Standard Time,

mom2bridget@... writes:

> You know Hope, it really isn't so sad. As I have

> grown older, had different interest, moved around, and

> mothered a child with ds, i too have a lot less in

> common with those i went to HS and even College with.

> I find we keep a few dear friends, but really meet and

> make knew ones as our own life changes also. When

> talk about it in terms of ds or a disability it seem s

> to hit harder. Yes, I feel that too. But I have to

> remind myself to look where I am and where I have come

> from also.

>

> jmho.

>

>

> in SC mom to Bridget 8 ds

HI

Yes you hit it on the nose heehee glad it wasn't just me who went on to

different friends.

I also look at it this way with Sara placed some in Reg Ed......is there a

better place in her life where she can learn language skills? Acceptable

behavior or Social skills? or how a student functions in school? OK as a

parent this is my job to see these skills take priority, the friendship stuff

is second besides Miss Spunky would never let me pick or choose her

friends anyway.....tried that and I heard " mine O business " figured out real

quick what that meant lol

Kathy mom to Sara 10

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/14/2002 8:50:19 PM US Mountain Standard Time,

mom2bridget@... writes:

> You know Hope, it really isn't so sad. As I have

> grown older, had different interest, moved around, and

> mothered a child with ds, i too have a lot less in

> common with those i went to HS and even College with

This is so true. As adults we tend to broaden our circles of friends and

seek different people for different needs in our lives. I have friends that

I go to church with that meet one need. I have friends that have children

with ds that meet other needs, I have friends that homeschool that meet other

needs, then there is the 4H group, the foster care group, and on and on.

Just because I am married and most of my life is centered around children

doesn't mean that I drop my friends that are not married, or are childless.

I look at Maverick's future as being FULL of people. People he works with,

people he has leisure time with, people he goes to church with. HEY, maybe

he'll even have time for his family in there! If he ends up hanging with

mostly people with disabilities, it will be because they have the same

interests that he does, NOT because he is an adult with a disability just as

they are. We work very hard to give all our children the benefit of seeing

people from all different walks of life.....socially, mentally, ethnically,

educationally....and then we step back and let them be who they are.

Right now, Maverick's interests are sports, skateboards and N'Sync

.......along with 80% of the kids his age, sp need AND nda. I think that he

will find a happy medium in adulthood as he has now that will have several

circles of friends to fit all his interests and needs, just as I do. I don't

think THAT is sad. What would be sad would be for me to curtail his

inclusive activities now becuase he might be rejected or hurt or left out

down the road somewhere.

( LOL...but it sure would make the school distict happy if I did!!!! )

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/14/2002 11:27:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,

b4alltoday@... writes:

> Before I get upset or fret over her losing friends I

> know more will come a knocking...........its just in her personality heehee

>

> Yes Kathy, and they will be of all types, kinds, personalities and IQs.

> Just as most of us develop friends throughout our lives. It is based on

> our interests and our location ..... we develop friends at jobsites, at

> church, in our neighborhoods ... as those change, so do the friends we

> aquire.

> Cheryl in VA

[Guest guest]

It's interesting for me to see Stefanie work her friendship magic. The sign

language class we are taking ( and yes, she is still kicking my butt ... now

the teacher has separated us, she caught us talking, Stef was trying to help

me!) requires me to pick her up and bring her to my jobsite for two hours

before we go to class on Tuesdays. She goes around visiting all my office

mates, looks for jobs to do, and yaks whenever possible. They love it. One

new woman came to me last week and told me how much she looks forward to

seeing Stefanie and talking with her. She is four years older than Stef.

She wants them to go out to lunch together. She told me Stef will come in

and talk to her about clothes (Stef always compliments her on her outfits)

and they talk about music groups ( they like some of the same groups)

Sounds like the beginnings of a friendship to me. ;-)

Cheryl in VA

[Guest guest]

> Whether we like it or not, there is a growing social sophistication

> separation between our kids and the NH ones. Our kids tend to have

> wonderful simplistic views of the world, which isn't universal among the

> NH kids .. in fact it is seldom the case. Our kids really don't get

> 'turned loose' in life like the NH ones. They always have supervisory

> people around.

I have already begun to see the social sophistication separation with .

It can be difficult for her to make friends in the NDA community. But we

always seem to find a couple of girls that really bond with her, and luckily

whose parents support the friendship, and encourage it.

> As adults (I'm dealing with that), the separation is really great. The

> NH kids are into careers, marriages, parties, families, and even

> divorce. Our kids can be included, but they are included on the side

> not in the main tent. There are remarkably few instances of the grade

> school level inclusion really lasting into the adult community .. except

> perhaps in a few church parishes. Here siblings don't count because

> they become supervisory unless taught specifically not to be.

Yes, I agree with this definitely. I have seen this separation with a

friend who is grown now. She keeps in touch with nda peers, but told her

mom recently that " it just isn't like it used to be " .

> I believe that it is very, very important for our kids to know their

> intellectual peers (and even people more handicapped than they are).

> Yes they need the age equivalent peers, but they don't need the bossing

> around that usually comes with that. Sadly, all of our kids, whether

> marvelously high functioning or not, will need both supervisory people

> all their lives and hopefully friends that they can be comfortable with

> whose lives are similar to theirs.

>

> Special Olympics is only one route for meeting intellectual peers.

> There are lots of others.

>

> Just one parent's strong opinion.

>

> Rick

One thing I tried to point out to the teachers and staff at the school is

the importance for all kids to have the opportunity to develop friendships,

and how I wanted to have friends in the sped class and in the gened

class, and that mainstreaming just wasn't going to help develop those

relationships.

So far we have had limited experience with SO. competed in the State

Games last fall and had a ball. So did we. Our area SO is so limited, and

I am not sure about the area coordinator. I would be happy if she would

just return my phone calls and emails right now.

I really don't understand some parents reluctance with SO. The father I

spoke about earlier that refused to have his daughter participate because it

would be detrimental to inclusion is also my best friend's husband. We have

had a couple of heated discussions about the subject. Of course, I am right

and he is wrong and he refuses to see that (lol).

played basketball on a parks and recreation team this winter, and will

be starting T-ball in a few weeks, also on a parks and recreation team.

However I really think this is the last year she will be able to keep up

with these kids physically. So the SO is going to become even more

important to us ----- if she would only answer my calls!

Sharon

Mom to (10, DS) and (6)

[Guest guest]

You know Hope, it really isn't so sad. As I have

grown older, had different interest, moved around, and

mothered a child with ds, i too have a lot less in

common with those i went to HS and even College with.

I find we keep a few dear friends, but really meet and

make knew ones as our own life changes also. When

talk about it in terms of ds or a disability it seem s

to hit harder. Yes, I feel that too. But I have to

remind myself to look where I am and where I have come

from also.

jmho.

in SC mom to Bridget 8 ds

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/14/02 9:35:42 PM Central Standard Time, rhsikes@...

writes:

> As a very new parent to a special needs child I had not given any

> thought to this eventual seperation you're speaking of but I can see

> where you're coming from. It is a sad thought.

> Hope

>

I think somewhere deep down there is that hope that our child will function

just fine in society even with ds. That it will have a minimal impact on

them. While I had great hopes of NDA peers for that separation is

happening.

My hope it that he will have some life long friendships with others with

disabilities. I know adults with disabilities that have been friends for most

of their lives. They have great friendships and social lives. Much better

than mine. LOL!!!

They date (at whatever level they understand) and have their cliques. I don't

see adulthood for most of our kids as lonely. As long as we make those social

connections possible.

There are three guys with ds that have been together in school for 4 years.

They are all included in reg. ed. class but tend to hang together. I am so

happy for them that they may know each other into adulthood and be a social

network with each other.

Karyn

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/14/02 9:58:35 PM Central Standard Time,

b4alltoday@... writes:

> If I want society to accept Sara then they need the chance to get to know

> her. Maybe she's the dummy in the class, I disagree with this thinking

> since

> more and more kids are being noticed as needing different teaching styles

> but

> hey Ill bite. I do know Sara has strengths and abilities that other kids

> don't have and as she's gotten older, the NDA population has seen this too.

>

> She is not the pity case nor are her peers patronizing her........she has

> self worth that is recognized and year by year more are accepting as she is

>

> accepting toward others

>

> Heehee another with strong opinions.........now we know where Sara gets it

> from lol

>

> Kathy mom to Sara 10

>

>

>

Kathy,

I don't think 's peers are patronizing toward him or belittle him but as

time has gone on they have taken more of the big brother or big sister roles

with him. They help him and talk to him but it is more of them taking the

time and purposefully stopping what they are doing to make time for .

Their lives are speeding up and is still going at his pace. They are

wonderful kids and I'm hoping that we'll find many more in middle school.

Karyn

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/14/02 10:21:27 PM Central Standard Time,

wildwards@... writes:

> I have very mixed feelings (and some different ones) than what has been

> expressed on this topic. Our experiences appears to be different. Tonight

>

> my daughter went to watch a play at school. I dropped her off because she

> was meeting some NH friends to watch the play with. I picked her up when

> it

> was over ... well, she came out in the parking lot and found me reading in

> my

> car. Many of the kids she knows with DS are much less mature than she and

> on

> a different social plane. She accepts all regardless but has difficulty at

>

> times dealing with the immaturity. I will not force her to spend her time

> with anyone just because they share a disability. That makes no sense to

> me.

> Cheryl in VA

>

Cheryl,

I think you make a very good point. It really depends upon each person's

ability level. Heck, isn't even able to compete in Special Olympics

here because the skill level is too high. They only play basketball games and

have no individual skill programs.

I don't think anyone is saying to force your child to be with others with

disabilities. My take is that it often happens for individuals with

disabilities as a part of life.

Karyn

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/15/02 7:40:21 AM Central Standard Time,

b4alltoday@... writes:

> HI Hope

>

> I dont think she meant only in education, i think she meant to segregate

> your

> child in ALL walks of life whould resemble racism. I reread her post and it

>

> didnt meantion reg ed shoot we all know as parents that we choose the

> placement AFTER goals and objectives are wrote up, then we decide as

> Individuals what is appropriate for our childs leanring style But please

>

> believe me when i say I have seen total segregation in some kids who live

> here, no association with the nda population and parents like myslef who

> feel

> differently are shunned................what would one call this?

>

> Kathy mom to Sara 10.....playing psychic this morning lol Im sure Sherri

> will

> explain her own post

> Kathy,

> I think there are parents, heck, just people in general that take a my way

> or no way attitude in life. There is a parent in our district that won't

> speak to anyone whose child isn't fully included.

> Then of course you have parents that think that a parent that wants total

integration is wasting the child's educational years.

My biggest pain is parent's that judge other's decisions without walking in

their shoes. My has ds but that is just one part of his many needs. His

life, regardless of my wishes, will take a shape of it's own (like any

child's). I can try to guide it along or I can try to wrestle into my view of

what it should be. Either way it is my decision and I must do what I think is

best for . Am I wrong? Who knows. Experts can't even agree on how to

raise a child without any disability.

Karyn

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 03/15/2002 9:42:42 AM Eastern Standard Time,

KVanRyzin@... writes:

<< There are three guys with ds that have been together in school for 4

years.

They are all included in reg. ed. class but tend to hang together. I am so

happy for them that they may know each other into adulthood and be a social

network with each other. >>

Our local support group works very hard here to establish social groups for

our kids, based on age, so that they get to know each other, because all the

kids are in different schools and different classes. Many of the kids have

created special bonds within these social groups. There are still those that

have not. Many others do not participate. It's sad to think so many people

with DS don't have the opportunities to develop friendships of any kind.

What I see working for my daughter, what has unfolded as a result of her

education opportunities, community life, and her personality, is that she

meets and knows and befriends people of all kinds, ages, colors, sexes, and

personalities. She is comfortable with almost anyone. She has three really

close friends right now without DS and two with DS. She doesn't gravitate

towards one or the other, she gravitates towards how they spend their time

together. Some friends are good for this and some are good for that. ;-)

I believe the experiences she has had have prepared her socially in the very

best way, and allow her to develop friendships of all kinds. How those

friendships change over the years will be no different than it has been for

most of us. But she has the skills and abilities to seek out whomever she

wishes, to interact with anyone, and I know she will not be lonely, sitting

home, waiting for someone to contact her. I don't want her to have paid

staff persons from community service organizations as her only friends when

she is an adult. I don't want her forced to live in a community where she is

surrounded by others designated by burocracy as her appropriate " peers " and

her opportunities for socializing are limited by someone's definition. My

daughter defines her friends now and I hope she will have that same

opportunity in her future.

Cheryl in VA

[Guest guest]

Inclusion divides our DS community here almost as much as TNI does! ;-)

Some people are vehement in their beliefs, very adamant in how inclusion

should be done and where it should be done and who should do it. They apply

it to all children, not just theirs. They are ready to change the world!

They want this battle over with.

Parents opposed to it feel that if an included child is successful, their

child's self contained placement will be lost because schools will force

inclusion on all children.

(Fat chance of that EVER happening!)

They feel judged because they chose self contained classrooms for their child

and feel sometimes regarded as part of the problem by people fighting for

inclusion. They can get defensive about the educational choices they have

made for their child.

And you have most of the parents, evaluating their rights and opportunities,

trying to figure out what works best for THEIR OWN child, what the law says

and how can they get the services THEIR child needs! They recognize that all

children are different and can flourish in different environments. They want

all children to have the full range of options and not be limited by one

placement or another, by what worked for some other child or what some

uneducated person's stereotype perception of how children with DS should be

educated. Sometimes it feels like we are fighting EVERYONE! ;-)

Cheryl in VA

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 03/15/2002 9:49:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, KVanRyzin

writes:

<< I don't think anyone is saying to force your child to be with others with

disabilities. My take is that it often happens for individuals with

disabilities as a part of life. >>

Hmmm, yes, some have said that we should be putting them together based on

their disability, their intellectual abilities. As to why individuals with

disabilities come together often as part of life, think about why that is

..... they are lumped together often, not by choice but for convienience.

For school, for living arrangements, for transportation, and for most, for

recreation.

Scary thought, this lumping together. Same logic VA and other states used to

force people into institutions with their intellectual peers ... taken away

from their families and forced to live where they were neglected, sterilized,

raped, and abused. Last year we had an attendant at a local institution

where PWD are lumped together used them for BB gun practice.

Cheryl in VA

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 03/15/2002 8:25:32 AM Eastern Standard Time,

rhsikes@... writes:

<< > Not sure I get the connection since racism is prejudice against a

> different race and having special needs has nothing to do with race. >>

But discrimination towards people with disabilities is alive and well, going

strong.

Cheryl in VA

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 03/15/2002 7:24:32 AM Eastern Standard Time,

drf218@... writes:

<< Do you think putting a child who cannot learn in a reg ed class, in a reg

ed class a wise decision? I don't .. >>

Do you think forbidding a child with a disability from participating in a

regular ed class based on the presumption they cannot learn because of their

disability is any more acceptable?

As someone who whole heartedly supports inclusion of many kinds, I would

never dictate to any parent what they should chose for their child. But I

will argue with anyone who will take away my child's right to access the

regular class, the regular curriculum and all that goes with it.

We can all argue forever over best methods and placements, when we should be

agreeing on supporting each others right to CHOOSE what WE WANT for our

children education.

Cheryl in VA

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 03/15/2002 10:50:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,

huie@... writes:

<< Heck, we haven't

hit puberty yet....lol. >>

Well save your worrying for that .... you are gonna need it!! ;-)

Cheryl in VA

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/15/2002 7:25:36 AM Central Standard Time,

rhsikes@... writes:

> I didn't quite get it either. I suppose by the same token all parents

> with non disabled, typically developing kids who put their kids in reg.

> ed. classrooms would be racist too. Sounds like this analogy could make

> the whole world racist.

> Maybe I'm misunderstanding too. Any clarifications would be welcomed.

> Hope

I do understand the anology, and disagree with it. hehe.

While including kids with their 'normal' peers is great, there does come a

time where everyone evaluates how the program is going or if it's time to

move on, whether it's to a more 'restrictive' program or moving from a

special needs program in to a mainstream one, there are as many different

answers as there are children. When we lump everyone into inclusive programs

we are then being exclusive (or racist) to.

Where Kathy's Sara thrives in mainstream/inclusive enviroments, and Tina's

son has thrived since moving to his home school, Arlenes princess is thriving

in her inclusive private school, my is having problems with

communication, while we could fight and argue with the school about support

at this time we've reached the place where it's not worth it, rather then

waste time fighting the school it's time to move on, and since they DON'T

provide a program for MSMI students in their hs (they would if we insisted

because they know they'd have to) we are basically in the nice spot of being

able to find a good established program for at any school in the area

that we wanted.....from what we can see the best answer for her at this time

is probably putting her in a program where language/communication skills are

stressed, so she will probably attend MN's school for the deaf, they are

really big on the " I " in the IEP. :-)

Luckily they now allow both ASL & verbal and we can write ST goals to help

with her speech. This program does include her with 'normal' deaf chidren in

her peer group....it's just they're deaf, but the pulse is very small class

size, from what we were shown there are about 10 kids in the jr. high and

like 3 are sp needs, they do almost everything as a group with the 'normal'

ones helping the others when alot and they also have intense hands on

instruction. What I'm really looking to see is if an immersion in a

communication rich enviroment will help her develope the skills to interact

with peers, she doesn't have that now with her limited speech and peers that

don't sign. If she picks up the ASL as we hope she will then I can also see

her making more progress in reading and other academic areas, right now I'd

have to say that those areas are somewhat limited because of her

speech/language skills. :-) If that makes me rasist....so be it. hehe

Never let it be said that I follow complete group think or pc stuff.....if we

have IEP wher ewe try to stress the " I " then we have to allow others who are

non disabled to have their " I " to. If you get what I mean. :-)

Joy

[Guest guest]

> Do you think putting a

> > child who cannot learn in a reg ed class, in a reg ed class a wise

> > decision?

Who says a child can't learn in a reg ed class? It seems to me that a child

can learn anywhere you try to teach them, if you are doing it correctly! The

more appropriate question is " WHAT do you want your child to learn? " .

In our school, we had a choice of him sitting in the self-contained

classroom, learning to stack blocks and concentrating on negative behavior,

or placing our son in a reg ed classroom with academic goals and classroom

support that would enable him to learn non only academics but proper social

behaviors.

We made the choice that WE felt was best for our child, not based on any

disability, or any predjudice or any preconcieved, " he's sp needs therefore

he belongs.....in THAT room! " . We made the choice based on what we wanted

our son to get from going to school and what our school had to offer that

best met his needs. It will vary from school to school, state to state,

family to family, child to child.

As for comparing this to racism... I did the same thing while talking to a

friend last night. To ME, this smacks of, " He needs to stay with his own

kind! " I've heard it in my community and I've heard it on this list.

" Our kids don't belong in the reg ed class. " " Our kids don't belong on

regular baseball teams. " " Our kids shouldn't make friends with typical kids

becuase they won't still be friends with them in 25 years. "

If this isn't some kind of predjudice,,,,then what is it?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/15/02 9:47:37 AM Central Standard Time, Wildwards

writes:

> . Same logic VA and other states used to force people into institutions

> with their intellectual peers ... taken away from their families and forced

> to live where they were neglected, sterilized, raped, and abused. Last

> year we had an attendant at a local institution where PWD are lumped

> together used them for BB gun practice.

> Cheryl in VA

I think the " logic " used to force people into institutions didn't have to do

with convenience rather a societal desire to keep these people out of sight.

It was and is society's lack of value for people with disabilities that

allowed the neglect, sterilization, rape and abuse to happen and still allows

it.

Forced institutionalization didn't just happen to people with cognitive

disabilities but also mental illness and chronic physical conditions

including disfigurement and physcial illnesses.

Karyn

[Guest guest]

Kathy writes: >>>>>>>>>>>

Hate to say this Rick but Ive seen separation/segregation in the

disability

circles as well. At some group functions (SO was one of them) the kids

separated by functioning levels, kids with weak verbal skills stood

alone,

kids in wheel chairs were alone unless you count their supervisory

person

near by. <<<<<<<<<<<

This is certainly true. I'm not always happy with Jan's tolerance of

others with more or different handicaps, although she's grown lots

better over the years as she discovers (and is even interested in) the

variety of disability.

Inclusion in life is very important. We all believe that. I also

believe

that finding others like one's self is equally important. In some

sensed

this isn't handicap related, but true for all of us.

Jan's adult sub-community is fully included in life, but there is a real

friendship and comraderie among the 100+ graduates of Chapel Haven

who all live in the same part of town and share in both informal and

formal social activities. New we just have to get her back there.

Rick

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/15/02 11:12:12 AM Central Standard Time,

sherriwalthers@... writes:

> the potential for learning is less than if you put your child with

> non disabled, anyone can gain knowledge, it is all dependant upon the level

> of knowledge that is around them.

Kathy,

I disagree with this. I could put into a room full of geniuses or a

regular ed. classroom and that isn't going to teach him to read. To learn

reading it works for him (I'm not generalizing to others here) to be in a

room with only 4 other students (or less) all working on the same level. That

is 's need. Not the need of the school district or some advocate.

On the other hand learning to sing songs works best for him if he is in a

group of kids that all know the words and sing the same songs many times.

(reg. ed. music class works for him).

I think I understand your statement. But, I've seen many exceptions to what

you say.

I want to be with good role models. Sometimes those role-models may be

non-disabled and other times they may be disabled.

Someone that I constantly hold up as a role model for my son is Matt, my

wonderful acquaintance at the grocery store that bags my groceries. If

can grow to have many of the qualities that Matt has I will be a very happy

person. Oh yes, Matt has ds.

Here is a question. When we say that we don't want our child " lumped " with

others with disabilities are we saying that the disabled group or even

individuals are of less value than a non-disabled group?

Karyn

[Guest guest]

Kathy

Oh definitely, I agree. My friendships have changed over the years, and I

am sure they will continue to change. I have 3 or 4 friends that I have

known for years, and I think we will always be friends. My closest friend

and I have been friends for 34 years, surviving her moving all over the

world, moving back home, and now me moving away.

I view 's situation differently because I am her parent. All parents

go through this, wanting bigger and better things for their children,

feeling their disappointments and hurts deeply. And because we have worked

so hard to establish friendships, the thought that one day they might not be

there is sad.

Of course, this is yet another thing that I shouldn't be worrying about

today. We have so much to face over the coming years, I have to stop myself

from thinking too much about 10-15 years down the road. Heck, we haven't

hit puberty yet....lol.

Sharon

Mom to (10, DS) and (6)

Re: Inclusion .. the dream .. or the adult reality

> In a message dated 3/14/2002 9:35:13 PM Central Standard Time,

huie@...

> writes:

>

>

> > Yes, I agree with this definitely. I have seen this separation with a

> > friend who is grown now. She keeps in touch with nda peers, but told

her

> > mom recently that " it just isn't like it used to be " .

>

>

> HI Sharon

>

> I can only go on my experiences and what Ive seen so correct me if I'm

wrong

> but havent most of you (parents) seperated from your HS chums? Heehee I

> haven't talked to mine in what no I wont say heehee but yearsssssssssssss

and

> just recently we got in contact through the alumni pages and I too agree

its

> not the same. Anyway from my experiences Im guessing Sara will have many

> friends who come and go through her life, some special friends will leave

and

> new will arrive. Letting her have NDA friends now will in no way deter her

> from have special need friends later in fact if she can put up with the

> typical teen groups she can be tolerant of anyone

>

> I take every day for what it brings, I will help Sara along the way, to

> developed her potential but I will also let her individuality come through

> whenever it wants Before I get upset or fret over her losing friends I

> know more will come a knocking...........its just in her personality

heehee

>

> Kathy mom to Sara 10...........who has shared her gift of making friends,

now

> my life is richer

>

>

>