Introduction

[Guest guest]

-Welcome Colleen!!!!!--

>

> My goal is to lose 5 pounds a month. I feel it will be easier to

> reach this goal than 10 pounds a month... >

Absolutely!!!! Very good thinking!!!!

>> I just ordered S. food mover and his video for easy on the

> joints. I have not recieved them yet.

> I just can not seem to make myself walk on my treadmil because I

get

> bored or go to the gym and actually use my membership, like I

should

> and thought I would try this program. Maybe after losing some

weight

> I will feel like going to the gym again.

>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Colleen: S. food mover plan is very healthy and realistic ,

and there are success stories with his program!!!!!

Boy, do I know what you mean about the gym membership. I have one

cause the health club has a pool and I swim; this month my one swim

cost me $28 ( one month's membership) but I don't think you or I

should let the membership go!!!!

> If the video hurts my knees, I will sit in a chair and do the upper

> body movements.

> I am anxious to get started.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Excellent plan: Just plan to do something each day, even if

it's for a few minutes!

>

> I just bought Dr Phill's weight loss book and he has some good

ideas

> in there. I just recieved it and on the first part of the book.

> I am trying to learn to journal, schedual my days try to give more

> positive self talk and things like that now.

> Maybe by the time I get my food mover and video I will be more

> organized at my journaling and start putting my schedual of the

days

> in place and actually start doing what I have written for my daily

> list.

<<<<<<<<

Colleen: You are really doing a lot!!! That's great! Dr. Phil's stuff

can help you about the emotional part about eating, I think this is a

very important component!!, journaling is a great tool!

>

>> I need something I can live with the rest of my life or the weight

> will not stay off. Been there and done that to many times.

You have come to the right place. That's what this group is

all about!

>

Welcome again.

Faye from Somerville, MA

[Guest guest]

Welcome ,

is that pill safe? it's a good idea to watch what

you eat. My mom and sister have both had surgery

in the past 8 months. They both are doing so much

better. you'll like it here - you'll find lots of

support.

--- <destinypeace@...> wrote:

> Hello Everyone,

> My name is ... I live in Midland, Texas

> and i'm 22.

Live, Love, Laugh

[Guest guest]

Hello and welcome to this group there is lots of support and I wish you sucess on your journey here

Tema <destinypeace@...> wrote:

Hello Everyone, My name is ... I live in Midland, Texas and i'm 22. Currently i am on just a watch what i eat diet.... and phentermine (weight loss pill) I am at my heaviest of about 415 right now... 6 days from today i am having back surgery.. then hopefully in 6 months i'll be able to exercise and move really good. If anyone is interested in becomeing a buddy and losing the weight together i would GREATLY appreciate it Thanks a million and have a great day.

[Guest guest]

Hi ! Welcome to the group. It's a great place to be. Surgery is

always scary. Just try and stay positive. Will you be getting any sort

of physical therapy afterwards? You know that counts as exercise. If

not you might want to consider convincing your doctor to sign you up

so your insurance will pay. Its a good, non-threatening, gentle way to

learn how to start exercising without hurting yourself. Then even

after you are on your feet you still have a " bag of tricks " just in

case you sprain or pull someting later and need to take it easy for a

bit.

Of course I could be totally off base here in which case just

disregard everything I just said except the " try and stay positive "

part.

[Guest guest]

Hi neighbor, welcome to the site. Your neighbors, Camp Buckmaster

> My name is Mader and I currently am working in Iraq for a

UXO/EOD contractor as a remote paramedic. I've been over here 13

months and have been all over this litterbox from Al Asad, Fallujah,

and Baghdad. I was directed to this site by a coworker who has quite

a few years on North Sea rigs and has piqued my interest. I'm an

American NREMT-P and last worked in downtown Atlanta. I have lately

come to the conclusion that, while I miss my wife and daughter

terribly, I have no real desire to go back to stateside EMS. Moving

my family to Scotland or somewhere else in the UK has a lot of appeal

to my wife and I, so I am hunting for any and all leads, info,

rumors, etc. that I can find concerning working and living over

there. My duties here parallel those of a rig medic, but I like the

fact that I can see my family with more frequency than every few

months (it'll have been 6 months when I see them again) and at the

same time not have to deal with the low-calibre of my charity

> hospital's patient base. Anyway, thanks for welcoming me to this

site and I hope it proves fruitful.

>

>

> Mader

> NREMT-P

> USA Environmental

> USACOE CEA Project

> FOB Spiecher, Tikrit, Iraq

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Start your day with - make it your home page

>

>

[Guest guest]

Buckmaster? No kidding, who are you with?

Chellew <pchel_1999@...> wrote:Hi neighbor, welcome to the site.

Your neighbors, Camp Buckmaster

> My name is Mader and I currently am working in Iraq for a

UXO/EOD contractor as a remote paramedic. I've been over here 13

months and have been all over this litterbox from Al Asad, Fallujah,

and Baghdad. I was directed to this site by a coworker who has quite

a few years on North Sea rigs and has piqued my interest. I'm an

American NREMT-P and last worked in downtown Atlanta. I have lately

come to the conclusion that, while I miss my wife and daughter

terribly, I have no real desire to go back to stateside EMS. Moving

my family to Scotland or somewhere else in the UK has a lot of appeal

to my wife and I, so I am hunting for any and all leads, info,

rumors, etc. that I can find concerning working and living over

there. My duties here parallel those of a rig medic, but I like the

fact that I can see my family with more frequency than every few

months (it'll have been 6 months when I see them again) and at the

same time not have to deal with the low-calibre of my charity

> hospital's patient base. Anyway, thanks for welcoming me to this

site and I hope it proves fruitful.

>

>

> Mader

> NREMT-P

> USA Environmental

> USACOE CEA Project

> FOB Spiecher, Tikrit, Iraq

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Start your day with - make it your home page

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello and Welcome

I met a coworker of yours in London on my way back from the sandbox, he's

home now and having a blast. I worked in Mosul and feel your one year

contract pain, I am currently in month 4 of another one year hitch in

Jordan. From what I have found on here these guys will help get you on a

steady rotating gig if they can. Take care and don't pick up shoe polish

cans.

Dan Dittfurth

_____

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of mader andrew

Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 9:59 AM

Subject: Introduction

My name is Mader and I currently am working in Iraq for a UXO/EOD

contractor as a remote paramedic. I've been over here 13 months and have

been all over this litterbox from Al Asad, Fallujah, and Baghdad. I was

directed to this site by a coworker who has quite a few years on North Sea

rigs and has piqued my interest. I'm an American NREMT-P and last worked in

downtown Atlanta. I have lately come to the conclusion that, while I miss

my wife and daughter terribly, I have no real desire to go back to stateside

EMS. Moving my family to Scotland or somewhere else in the UK has a lot of

appeal to my wife and I, so I am hunting for any and all leads, info,

rumors, etc. that I can find concerning working and living over there. My

duties here parallel those of a rig medic, but I like the fact that I can

see my family with more frequency than every few months (it'll have been 6

months when I see them again) and at the same time not have to deal with the

low-calibre of my charity

hospital's patient base. Anyway, thanks for welcoming me to this site and I

hope it proves fruitful.

Mader

NREMT-P

USA Environmental

USACOE CEA Project

FOB Spiecher, Tikrit, Iraq

---------------------------------

Start your day with - make it your home page

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the welcome. Which guys'll get you on rotation, the rigs? Also,

which contractor are you lucky enough to work for, I know that there're more out

here than anybody seems to know of. It seems like every time you turn around,

there's anoth one that's got a great deal for a medic. I know I wish that I'd

heard of them before I made the mistake of my original one.

Dan Dittfurth <dditt@...> wrote:Hello and Welcome

I met a coworker of yours in London on my way back from the sandbox, he's

home now and having a blast. I worked in Mosul and feel your one year

contract pain, I am currently in month 4 of another one year hitch in

Jordan. From what I have found on here these guys will help get you on a

steady rotating gig if they can. Take care and don't pick up shoe polish

cans.

Dan Dittfurth

_____

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of mader andrew

Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 9:59 AM

Subject: Introduction

My name is Mader and I currently am working in Iraq for a UXO/EOD

contractor as a remote paramedic. I've been over here 13 months and have

been all over this litterbox from Al Asad, Fallujah, and Baghdad. I was

directed to this site by a coworker who has quite a few years on North Sea

rigs and has piqued my interest. I'm an American NREMT-P and last worked in

downtown Atlanta. I have lately come to the conclusion that, while I miss

my wife and daughter terribly, I have no real desire to go back to stateside

EMS. Moving my family to Scotland or somewhere else in the UK has a lot of

appeal to my wife and I, so I am hunting for any and all leads, info,

rumors, etc. that I can find concerning working and living over there. My

duties here parallel those of a rig medic, but I like the fact that I can

see my family with more frequency than every few months (it'll have been 6

months when I see them again) and at the same time not have to deal with the

low-calibre of my charity

hospital's patient base. Anyway, thanks for welcoming me to this site and I

hope it proves fruitful.

Mader

NREMT-P

USA Environmental

USACOE CEA Project

FOB Spiecher, Tikrit, Iraq

---------------------------------

Start your day with - make it your home page

[Guest guest]

Hi

welcome.

i might be able to help as there is a vacancy here at present

drop me a mail and i,ll give you the details.

regards

ian.

[Guest guest]

Hey guys I am back for just a quick in and out 1

month... I am filling in for a medic that had to go

home on emergency leave. After 18 and a half months

over here I had planned on staying home until at least

the weather cooled off a bit. But this is a very

interesting project. I am right on the bank of the

Tigris with a bunch of oil pipe line guys and they are

repairing/ replacing oil pipes under the river. This

will restore oil exports from all Northern and some of

the Central Iraq oil fields. I am well set up here.

With an office, complete clinic, computer with great

net access, and best of all my own private room. The

best accomodations I have ever had in Iraq so far..

Stay safe talk to you later..

Derrick

--- mader andrew <hobbitdad2000@...> wrote:

> Buckmaster? No kidding, who are you with?

>

> Chellew <pchel_1999@...> wrote:Hi

> neighbor, welcome to the site. Your neighbors, Camp

> Buckmaster

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> > My name is Mader and I currently am working

> in Iraq for a

> UXO/EOD contractor as a remote paramedic. I've been

> over here 13

> months and have been all over this litterbox from Al

> Asad, Fallujah,

> and Baghdad. I was directed to this site by a

> coworker who has quite

> a few years on North Sea rigs and has piqued my

> interest. I'm an

> American NREMT-P and last worked in downtown

> Atlanta. I have lately

> come to the conclusion that, while I miss my wife

> and daughter

> terribly, I have no real desire to go back to

> stateside EMS. Moving

> my family to Scotland or somewhere else in the UK

> has a lot of appeal

> to my wife and I, so I am hunting for any and all

> leads, info,

> rumors, etc. that I can find concerning working and

> living over

> there. My duties here parallel those of a rig

> medic, but I like the

> fact that I can see my family with more frequency

> than every few

> months (it'll have been 6 months when I see them

> again) and at the

> same time not have to deal with the low-calibre of

> my charity

> > hospital's patient base. Anyway, thanks for

> welcoming me to this

> site and I hope it proves fruitful.

> >

> >

> > Mader

> > NREMT-P

> > USA Environmental

> > USACOE CEA Project

> > FOB Spiecher, Tikrit, Iraq

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Start your day with - make it your home

> page

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

>

>

> Member Information:

>

> List owner: Ian Sharpe Owner@...

> Editor: Ross Boardman Editor@...

>

> ALL list admin messages (subscriptions &

> unsubscriptions) should be sent to the list owner.

>

> Post message: egroups

>

> Please visit our website

> http://www.remotemedics.co.uk

>

> Regards

>

> The Remote Medics Team

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Wow where is the applications page to apply to be your replacement

Dan Dittfurth

_____

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Derrick Barcombe

Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 4:58 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Introduction

Hey guys I am back for just a quick in and out 1

month... I am filling in for a medic that had to go

home on emergency leave. After 18 and a half months

over here I had planned on staying home until at least

the weather cooled off a bit. But this is a very

interesting project. I am right on the bank of the

Tigris with a bunch of oil pipe line guys and they are

repairing/ replacing oil pipes under the river. This

will restore oil exports from all Northern and some of

the Central Iraq oil fields. I am well set up here.

With an office, complete clinic, computer with great

net access, and best of all my own private room. The

best accomodations I have ever had in Iraq so far..

Stay safe talk to you later..

Derrick

--- mader andrew <hobbitdad2000@...> wrote:

_____

[Guest guest]

Dan I think you mean back 2 back, these guys are going under the bridge...

P

Dan Dittfurth <dditt@...> wrote:

Wow where is the applications page to apply to be your replacement

Dan Dittfurth

_____

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Derrick Barcombe

Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 4:58 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Introduction

Hey guys I am back for just a quick in and out 1

month... I am filling in for a medic that had to go

home on emergency leave. After 18 and a half months

over here I had planned on staying home until at least

the weather cooled off a bit. But this is a very

interesting project. I am right on the bank of the

Tigris with a bunch of oil pipe line guys and they are

repairing/ replacing oil pipes under the river. This

will restore oil exports from all Northern and some of

the Central Iraq oil fields. I am well set up here.

With an office, complete clinic, computer with great

net access, and best of all my own private room. The

best accomodations I have ever had in Iraq so far..

Stay safe talk to you later..

Derrick

--- mader andrew <hobbitdad2000@...> wrote:

_____

[Guest guest]

Last time I was that close to the Tigris we received a wake up car bomb

every day and were lulled to sleep by mortars. So ok back to back, I am used

to one year contracts.

Dan Dittfurth

_____

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of peter mitchell

Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 5:18 PM

Subject: RE: Re: Introduction

Dan I think you mean back 2 back, these guys are going under the bridge...

P

Dan Dittfurth <dditt@...> wrote:

Wow where is the applications page to apply to be your replacement

Dan Dittfurth

_____

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Derrick Barcombe

Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 4:58 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Introduction

Hey guys I am back for just a quick in and out 1

month... I am filling in for a medic that had to go

home on emergency leave. After 18 and a half months

over here I had planned on staying home until at least

the weather cooled off a bit. But this is a very

interesting project. I am right on the bank of the

Tigris with a bunch of oil pipe line guys and they are

repairing/ replacing oil pipes under the river. This

will restore oil exports from all Northern and some of

the Central Iraq oil fields. I am well set up here.

With an office, complete clinic, computer with great

net access, and best of all my own private room. The

best accomodations I have ever had in Iraq so far..

Stay safe talk to you later..

Derrick

--- mader andrew <hobbitdad2000@...> wrote:

_____

[Guest guest]

Any help would be great, I'm not really sure how to go about looking. I know

that I need the off-shore course, which is rather pricey, but I hear tell that

some of the companies would consider sponsorship in exchange for a contract.

iansprivatespace@... wrote:Hi

welcome.

i might be able to help as there is a vacancy here at present

drop me a mail and i,ll give you the details.

regards

ian.

Member Information:

List owner: Ian Sharpe Owner@...

Editor: Ross Boardman Editor@...

ALL list admin messages (subscriptions & unsubscriptions) should be sent to the

list owner.

Post message: egroups

Please visit our website http://www.remotemedics.co.uk

Regards

The Remote Medics Team

[Guest guest]

So the reports of mayhem are correct but at least it appears to be consistent

mayhem, anyway if you do go keep it all tucked in and wait for the all clear...!

P

Dan Dittfurth <dditt@...> wrote:

Last time I was that close to the Tigris we received a wake up car bomb

every day and were lulled to sleep by mortars. So ok back to back, I am used

to one year contracts.

Dan Dittfurth

_____

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of peter mitchell

Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 5:18 PM

Subject: RE: Re: Introduction

Dan I think you mean back 2 back, these guys are going under the bridge...

P

Dan Dittfurth <dditt@...> wrote:

Wow where is the applications page to apply to be your replacement

Dan Dittfurth

_____

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Derrick Barcombe

Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 4:58 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Introduction

Hey guys I am back for just a quick in and out 1

month... I am filling in for a medic that had to go

home on emergency leave. After 18 and a half months

over here I had planned on staying home until at least

the weather cooled off a bit. But this is a very

interesting project. I am right on the bank of the

Tigris with a bunch of oil pipe line guys and they are

repairing/ replacing oil pipes under the river. This

will restore oil exports from all Northern and some of

the Central Iraq oil fields. I am well set up here.

With an office, complete clinic, computer with great

net access, and best of all my own private room. The

best accomodations I have ever had in Iraq so far..

Stay safe talk to you later..

Derrick

--- mader andrew <hobbitdad2000@...> wrote:

_____

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Sorry I can't be of help, Aussie system greatly different. Best wishes

though with your fight for your brothers rights. I am sure their will be

lots of advice from here for you. Don't ever think that either your brother

is a lost cause or fighting for your rights are - it is amazing just how

much you can get by perseverance. I am constantly told here that I seem to

get lots for my son, whichpersonally Idon't believe, but do know I have

extra assistance wholly and solely because I ask lots of questions, do lots

of research and follow it up, and yes it takes time and most things do not

happen overnight.

Keep smiling

Jan, mother of Trent 21 yo w/DS from the Land Down Under

Introduction

> Hello, all. My name is ; I have a 17-year old " little " brother

> named with ds. I have 5 children of my own, with one due in

> February. is the youngest of my 7 siblings. My mother has

> never sought out much in the way of support or advice concerning Tim,

> and he has been in a small public school system since Kindergarten.

> He was blessed to attend a special school for a few preschool years

> here in Tulsa called The Little Light House. They were by far the

> most productive years of his educational career so far.

> My mother was diagnosed with a life-threatening cancer last spring.

> We hope and pray that she will make a full recovery, but her illness

> has provided the opportunity to discuss Tim's future and his present

> situation much more openly than has been done before. My mother and

> father plan to name me Tim's secondary guardian when he turns 18 in

> January. Bearing that responsibility is a privilege for my husband

> and I, and I am glad to now have some, although quite limited,

> authority in decisions that involve Tim's future and in particular his

> current schooling. That brings me to my question.

> My mom has never insisted on any degree of responsibility from the

> school for Tim's education. In fact, she has complained a lot but

> never gone so far as to be involved in making educational planning

> decisions with the school. Consequently, Tim's rights were often

> abused, in my opinion, and his learning opportunities severely

> limited. He is a very bright young man, witty and smart, but does not

> read even at a first grade level. I met with his high school special

> ed teacher last week, and was told that not much more than that can be

> expected, that he " peaking " in ability to learn new things, and we

> should be satisfied with small gains. For instance, in testing last

> spring he could spell 3 more words correctly than the year before (for

> a grand total of 8 correctly-spelled words). His teacher considers

> that an appropriate gain. I was appalled, and told both the teacher

> and the principal in attendance that I did not agree with that

> assumption, and that I fully expected him to read, though I thought he

> should have learned a long time ago. We asked about getting him a

> different program called Edmark that one of my brothers had heard good

> things about; they wanted to know how much it cost, maybe if it is

> cheap enough they could look into it. The principal questioned how

> different it would be from what they are already doing. What they are

> doing is having Tim read from high school science and history texts

> with the special ed teacher sounding out the words along with him.

> That is the total reading program. It stinks, in my opinion. It

> certainly isn't working. They suggested mom have him read some Dr.

> Seuss-type books at home in the evenings to practice. We asked for a

> reading specialist; they told us they don't have one that is trained

> to work with special needs kids. When I said, then can't we get one,

> the principal said he would consult with the administration because he

> wasn't really sure " What we are required to do, how far we have to go "

> to meet those kinds of requests. It was a very frustrating meeting.

> Another issue at hand at school is that last year, as a freshman, Tim

> was required to begin a " work study " program, also known as Vocational

> Rehabilitaion, which involves nothing more than all the special needs

> kids cleaning up the lunchroom when the regular kids go back to class.

> Tim got a C in the class because he didn't cooperate. He is not

> retarded enough to not be offended, I'm afraid. He was told that when

> he became a sophomore, he would begin to be paid for his work, but the

> freshmen don't get paid at all. He has waited all this time to get

> that paycheck. He is planning to buy himself a leather jacket . He

> hasn't been paid yet this year, either, and now we find out that his

> application through the state wasn't approved until last week, so he

> won't get paid for ANY work done before then. No one ever gave my mom

> a copy of Tim's rights concerning this program. Now we find out that

> he should have been accepted to the state-funded (Oklahoma) program

> when he turned 16. Only the school did not apply for him until this

> fall. I am so mad about this that I could just scream. All the

> while, he keeps telling people, " I have a job now. I get a paycheck,

> it will be big! " The janitor he works with has told him he is going

> to get the " big bucks " because he works so hard. It is the most

> enraging situation. Has anyone out there every heard of such an

> absurd program in a public high school? What should I do to make them

> make it right? I am so mad about it I can't even think straight.

> Well, I apologize for such a long introduction. It may be more than

> anyone wants to take on! It is certainly overwhelming for me. My

> main concern right now is making sure that Tim can read when he

> graduates high school. LIke I told the principal, I can think of a

> lot of jobs Tim could do or even volunteer at if he can read, but

> there's not much out there for an illiterate disabled person. The

> teacher had suggested that we look into a group home where they teach

> mentally disabled folks to pick up trash for a living.

> Where to go from here? I live an hour away from Tim. I don't know if

> my parents would be willing to transfer him to my local school, which

> I hear has a pretty good Special Ed program. I homeschool my own

> kids, and I would try to school Tim as well, except that he gets

> offended easily when he thinks he is being treated like one of the

> kids. " I'm not a baby, " he says. So my school is probably not the

> best place for him. Should I just try to make the system he's in work

> for him, or is it a lost cause? Any advice would be greatly

> appreciated. I think I am in over my head.

> in OK

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Click reply to all for messages to go to the list. Just hit reply for

> messages to go to the sender of the message.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi and welcome,

Tim is lucky to have you and you are lucky to have Tim, but I see that you

already realize that.

What you need to do is request an IEP.

Before the meeting, talk to other parents, perhaps try to find an advocate,

even talk to the sp ed teacher in your community since you feel that it is a

good program. Get recommendations of what programs you want to implement

for him. Get ideas of what you WANT for him.

For example, is your priority now for him to continue with the work related

training, or focus solely on academics, or a combo of both. You decide what

YOU feel is best, knowing Tim as you do. Then you sit down with this team

and you write up his IEP, remembering that it is an INDIVIDUAL Education

program, specifically to meet HIS needs. Once it is written into that IEP

the school is held by law to follow it.

If you want them to use the Edmark reading program (which I and many on this

list recommend!).. then get it written into the IEP. There are also

different reading programs, math programs, writing programs.

DO NOT let anyone tell you that he has peaked.

Many high schools begin the children in a work program right away. In our

district, they even had the sp ed class cleaning the lunchroom in the Jr.

High. I choose not to have my son, who is a freshman, in a work program.

We want to focus on academics while he is still young enough.

The most important thing to remember, is that Tim is Tim. What works for

the rest of the kids in his school, doesn't specifically have to work for

him. What works for my son, may not work for Tim. There are many different

settings and programs and many of them good. What you need to do is find

the one that you and your family and Tim are most comfortable with, and then

build it to be a strong and supportive program for him.

Again, Welcome and keep asking the questions!

[Guest guest]

,

Welcome to the group

Also, Remember by law you brother has another 4 years of schooling, until he

is 21... that is a lot of time to learn and remind the school district about

that .... getting an advocate will help you greatly... I know that my

daughter is getting flack from the school district because at 5 years of age

they feel that a " highly individualize, highly structured, life skills

class " is the most appropriate option and I currently have her in a reg

kindergarten class which by the way she is making progress in and her

language skills in just 7 weeks have really increased. So we got an

advocate.... we are going through her Evaluation report with a fine tooth

comb and plan to have a IEP on the 28th... the advocate has already stated

that he is going to seat me at the head of the table and he is going to have

us hand out an agenda and basically we are going to control the meeting....

So an advocate is highly recommended... also, ask your brother what his

goals are... he is old enough that he can attend the IEP and make his input

known.... remind the school that just because he has difficulty learning and

it takes longer, that is doesn't mean he can't; just that they need to think

outside the box about how to approach the subject and modify or use a

completely different reading program such as Edmark which can help...

Also people with Down syndrome are just like the rest of us.... and some so

called typical illiterate adults do not learn to read until well into their

adulthood and just like the typical population that continues to learn well

into their adulthood, people with Down syndrome can too given the proper

supports and encouragement... Just a thought... if you have a literacy for

adults program in your area maybe you can contact them about how to approach

teaching a young man your brothers age to read since Dr Suess probably might

offend him as you say and probably would many adults they must have learn to

read materials that are more suited to the older student....

I agree with that you should look into what your Special Ed department

does and how they support their students and write down a list of contrasts

or similarities between your system and your brothers to help illustrate

what is different and what can be done.. I know many parents on this list

have children that can read and write at varying degrees of fluency... and

for some the writing is more appropriately down on a keyboard ... some can

print and some can use cursive, some a combination of all three.... so it

will all be individual as it should be for your brother Tim...

Good luck and have fun

ann

Introduction

> Hello, all. My name is ; I have a 17-year old " little " brother

> named with ds. I have 5 children of my own, with one due in

> February. is the youngest of my 7 siblings. My mother has

> never sought out much in the way of support or advice concerning Tim,

> and he has been in a small public school system since Kindergarten.

> He was blessed to attend a special school for a few preschool years

> here in Tulsa called The Little Light House. They were by far the

> most productive years of his educational career so far.

> My mother was diagnosed with a life-threatening cancer last spring.

> We hope and pray that she will make a full recovery, but her illness

> has provided the opportunity to discuss Tim's future and his present

> situation much more openly than has been done before. My mother and

> father plan to name me Tim's secondary guardian when he turns 18 in

> January. Bearing that responsibility is a privilege for my husband

> and I, and I am glad to now have some, although quite limited,

> authority in decisions that involve Tim's future and in particular his

> current schooling. That brings me to my question.

> My mom has never insisted on any degree of responsibility from the

> school for Tim's education. In fact, she has complained a lot but

> never gone so far as to be involved in making educational planning

> decisions with the school. Consequently, Tim's rights were often

> abused, in my opinion, and his learning opportunities severely

> limited. He is a very bright young man, witty and smart, but does not

> read even at a first grade level. I met with his high school special

> ed teacher last week, and was told that not much more than that can be

> expected, that he " peaking " in ability to learn new things, and we

> should be satisfied with small gains. For instance, in testing last

> spring he could spell 3 more words correctly than the year before (for

> a grand total of 8 correctly-spelled words). His teacher considers

> that an appropriate gain. I was appalled, and told both the teacher

> and the principal in attendance that I did not agree with that

> assumption, and that I fully expected him to read, though I thought he

> should have learned a long time ago. We asked about getting him a

> different program called Edmark that one of my brothers had heard good

> things about; they wanted to know how much it cost, maybe if it is

> cheap enough they could look into it. The principal questioned how

> different it would be from what they are already doing. What they are

> doing is having Tim read from high school science and history texts

> with the special ed teacher sounding out the words along with him.

> That is the total reading program. It stinks, in my opinion. It

> certainly isn't working. They suggested mom have him read some Dr.

> Seuss-type books at home in the evenings to practice. We asked for a

> reading specialist; they told us they don't have one that is trained

> to work with special needs kids. When I said, then can't we get one,

> the principal said he would consult with the administration because he

> wasn't really sure " What we are required to do, how far we have to go "

> to meet those kinds of requests. It was a very frustrating meeting.

> Another issue at hand at school is that last year, as a freshman, Tim

> was required to begin a " work study " program, also known as Vocational

> Rehabilitaion, which involves nothing more than all the special needs

> kids cleaning up the lunchroom when the regular kids go back to class.

> Tim got a C in the class because he didn't cooperate. He is not

> retarded enough to not be offended, I'm afraid. He was told that when

> he became a sophomore, he would begin to be paid for his work, but the

> freshmen don't get paid at all. He has waited all this time to get

> that paycheck. He is planning to buy himself a leather jacket . He

> hasn't been paid yet this year, either, and now we find out that his

> application through the state wasn't approved until last week, so he

> won't get paid for ANY work done before then. No one ever gave my mom

> a copy of Tim's rights concerning this program. Now we find out that

> he should have been accepted to the state-funded (Oklahoma) program

> when he turned 16. Only the school did not apply for him until this

> fall. I am so mad about this that I could just scream. All the

> while, he keeps telling people, " I have a job now. I get a paycheck,

> it will be big! " The janitor he works with has told him he is going

> to get the " big bucks " because he works so hard. It is the most

> enraging situation. Has anyone out there every heard of such an

> absurd program in a public high school? What should I do to make them

> make it right? I am so mad about it I can't even think straight.

> Well, I apologize for such a long introduction. It may be more than

> anyone wants to take on! It is certainly overwhelming for me. My

> main concern right now is making sure that Tim can read when he

> graduates high school. LIke I told the principal, I can think of a

> lot of jobs Tim could do or even volunteer at if he can read, but

> there's not much out there for an illiterate disabled person. The

> teacher had suggested that we look into a group home where they teach

> mentally disabled folks to pick up trash for a living.

> Where to go from here? I live an hour away from Tim. I don't know if

> my parents would be willing to transfer him to my local school, which

> I hear has a pretty good Special Ed program. I homeschool my own

> kids, and I would try to school Tim as well, except that he gets

> offended easily when he thinks he is being treated like one of the

> kids. " I'm not a baby, " he says. So my school is probably not the

> best place for him. Should I just try to make the system he's in work

> for him, or is it a lost cause? Any advice would be greatly

> appreciated. I think I am in over my head.

> in OK

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Click reply to all for messages to go to the list. Just hit reply for

> messages to go to the sender of the message.

>

[Guest guest]

, my little one is barely 7, so I cant offer a whole lot. But I

CAN say.wow! Awesome for you and for him that you are not only willing

but thrilled to take on this responsibility. Too bad you couldn't have

been onboard sooner, you sound like someone who will get things done. I

wouldn't just let it be a wash. I would keep asking the questions you've

been asking, and keep fighting for his rights. I am not a big believer

in this " peaking " thing. He can learn, and he WILL learn, if it is

presented to him properly. Sounds like the motivating factor will be

money, find a way to use that to get him to cooperate. It actually

sounds like he is pretty bright, WHY he wasn't taught is beyond me, it

must be so frustrating. Good for you for being there, and good for him.

Good luck!

Introduction

Hello, all. My name is ; I have a 17-year old " little " brother

named with ds. I have 5 children of my own, with one due in

February. is the youngest of my 7 siblings. My mother has

never sought out much in the way of support or advice concerning Tim,

and he has been in a small public school system since Kindergarten.

He was blessed to attend a special school for a few preschool years

here in Tulsa called The Little Light House. They were by far the

most productive years of his educational career so far.

My mother was diagnosed with a life-threatening cancer last spring.

We hope and pray that she will make a full recovery, but her illness

has provided the opportunity to discuss Tim's future and his present

situation much more openly than has been done before. My mother and

father plan to name me Tim's secondary guardian when he turns 18 in

January. Bearing that responsibility is a privilege for my husband

and I, and I am glad to now have some, although quite limited,

authority in decisions that involve Tim's future and in particular his

current schooling. That brings me to my question.

My mom has never insisted on any degree of responsibility from the

school for Tim's education. In fact, she has complained a lot but

never gone so far as to be involved in making educational planning

decisions with the school. Consequently, Tim's rights were often

abused, in my opinion, and his learning opportunities severely

limited. He is a very bright young man, witty and smart, but does not

read even at a first grade level. I met with his high school special

ed teacher last week, and was told that not much more than that can be

expected, that he " peaking " in ability to learn new things, and we

should be satisfied with small gains. For instance, in testing last

spring he could spell 3 more words correctly than the year before (for

a grand total of 8 correctly-spelled words). His teacher considers

that an appropriate gain. I was appalled, and told both the teacher

and the principal in attendance that I did not agree with that

assumption, and that I fully expected him to read, though I thought he

should have learned a long time ago. We asked about getting him a

different program called Edmark that one of my brothers had heard good

things about; they wanted to know how much it cost, maybe if it is

cheap enough they could look into it. The principal questioned how

different it would be from what they are already doing. What they are

doing is having Tim read from high school science and history texts

with the special ed teacher sounding out the words along with him.

That is the total reading program. It stinks, in my opinion. It

certainly isn't working. They suggested mom have him read some Dr.

Seuss-type books at home in the evenings to practice. We asked for a

reading specialist; they told us they don't have one that is trained

to work with special needs kids. When I said, then can't we get one,

the principal said he would consult with the administration because he

wasn't really sure " What we are required to do, how far we have to go "

to meet those kinds of requests. It was a very frustrating meeting.

Another issue at hand at school is that last year, as a freshman, Tim

was required to begin a " work study " program, also known as Vocational

Rehabilitaion, which involves nothing more than all the special needs

kids cleaning up the lunchroom when the regular kids go back to class.

Tim got a C in the class because he didn't cooperate. He is not

retarded enough to not be offended, I'm afraid. He was told that when

he became a sophomore, he would begin to be paid for his work, but the

freshmen don't get paid at all. He has waited all this time to get

that paycheck. He is planning to buy himself a leather jacket . He

hasn't been paid yet this year, either, and now we find out that his

application through the state wasn't approved until last week, so he

won't get paid for ANY work done before then. No one ever gave my mom

a copy of Tim's rights concerning this program. Now we find out that

he should have been accepted to the state-funded (Oklahoma) program

when he turned 16. Only the school did not apply for him until this

fall. I am so mad about this that I could just scream. All the

while, he keeps telling people, " I have a job now. I get a paycheck,

it will be big! " The janitor he works with has told him he is going

to get the " big bucks " because he works so hard. It is the most

enraging situation. Has anyone out there every heard of such an

absurd program in a public high school? What should I do to make them

make it right? I am so mad about it I can't even think straight.

Well, I apologize for such a long introduction. It may be more than

anyone wants to take on! It is certainly overwhelming for me. My

main concern right now is making sure that Tim can read when he

graduates high school. LIke I told the principal, I can think of a

lot of jobs Tim could do or even volunteer at if he can read, but

there's not much out there for an illiterate disabled person. The

teacher had suggested that we look into a group home where they teach

mentally disabled folks to pick up trash for a living.

Where to go from here? I live an hour away from Tim. I don't know if

my parents would be willing to transfer him to my local school, which

I hear has a pretty good Special Ed program. I homeschool my own

kids, and I would try to school Tim as well, except that he gets

offended easily when he thinks he is being treated like one of the

kids. " I'm not a baby, " he says. So my school is probably not the

best place for him. Should I just try to make the system he's in work

for him, or is it a lost cause? Any advice would be greatly

appreciated. I think I am in over my head.

in OK

Click reply to all for messages to go to the list. Just hit reply for

messages to go to the sender of the message.

[Guest guest]

,

I, like so many of the others, want to welcome and support you! Believe me,

you already " get it. " I would strongly encourage the Edmark reading program

too; it works. And the school system should buy it because it works for

lots of children, not just Tim. Any teacher will tell you (and many have

told me) at any given time, there are a minimum of 4 grade levels of readers

in any one class. Start using the words 'differentiated instruction' and

'incidental learning'. The first basically means tailoring the teacher's

instruction to adapt and modify to several levels at the same time, probably

with assistance from the special ed teacher. For instance, I knew of a boy

who was pretty severely impaired (non ds) in high school who was in geometry

class. He wasn't able to do geometry calculations; but his goal was for him

to learn to recognize the basic geometric shapes. He sat next to the

teacher's desk and after a week or two was able to hold up the correct shape

when the teacher discussed it. AND...guess what else happened? He started

to pick up on the calculations too! That's incidental learning. And...it

was important for his peers to see him as capable and to get social and

behavioral opportunities too.

There aren't two grocery stores in life. And the 1970's thinking is our

children can only bag groceries and/or clean up trash (nothing against those

service industries), but that's not the only things they're capable of and

to decide that for them is nothing short of criminal. Your brother gets to

have goals and dreams too and cleaning up the lunchroom may not be his.

Having said that, I must admit I worked in the lunchroom in Jr High, because

one of my friends did it. We served the lunch periods and cleaned trays,

but then we got to eat for free and as much as we wanted! Oh the joys of

that! We thought it was fun, but doing it with a friend was the key.

Good luck. You'll find tons of support and good info here. In particular,

helped me deeply when we went through a very tough time with our

daughter when she was in first grade (now a fully included 4th grader).

Thanks,

Eleanor Green

mom to , 10, ds and , 7

_____

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf

Of rachbranch

Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 11:53 PM

Subject: Introduction

Hello, all. My name is ; I have a 17-year old " little " brother

named with ds. I have 5 children of my own, with one due in

February. is the youngest of my 7 siblings. My mother has

never sought out much in the way of support or advice concerning Tim,

and he has been in a small public school system since Kindergarten.

He was blessed to attend a special school for a few preschool years

here in Tulsa called The Little Light House. They were by far the

most productive years of his educational career so far.

My mother was diagnosed with a life-threatening cancer last spring.

We hope and pray that she will make a full recovery, but her illness

has provided the opportunity to discuss Tim's future and his present

situation much more openly than has been done before. My mother and

father plan to name me Tim's secondary guardian when he turns 18 in

January. Bearing that responsibility is a privilege for my husband

and I, and I am glad to now have some, although quite limited,

authority in decisions that involve Tim's future and in particular his

current schooling. That brings me to my question.

My mom has never insisted on any degree of responsibility from the

school for Tim's education. In fact, she has complained a lot but

never gone so far as to be involved in making educational planning

decisions with the school. Consequently, Tim's rights were often

abused, in my opinion, and his learning opportunities severely

limited. He is a very bright young man, witty and smart, but does not

read even at a first grade level. I met with his high school special

ed teacher last week, and was told that not much more than that can be

expected, that he " peaking " in ability to learn new things, and we

should be satisfied with small gains. For instance, in testing last

spring he could spell 3 more words correctly than the year before (for

a grand total of 8 correctly-spelled words). His teacher considers

that an appropriate gain. I was appalled, and told both the teacher

and the principal in attendance that I did not agree with that

assumption, and that I fully expected him to read, though I thought he

should have learned a long time ago. We asked about getting him a

different program called Edmark that one of my brothers had heard good

things about; they wanted to know how much it cost, maybe if it is

cheap enough they could look into it. The principal questioned how

different it would be from what they are already doing. What they are

doing is having Tim read from high school science and history texts

with the special ed teacher sounding out the words along with him.

That is the total reading program. It stinks, in my opinion. It

certainly isn't working. They suggested mom have him read some Dr.

Seuss-type books at home in the evenings to practice. We asked for a

reading specialist; they told us they don't have one that is trained

to work with special needs kids. When I said, then can't we get one,

the principal said he would consult with the administration because he

wasn't really sure " What we are required to do, how far we have to go "

to meet those kinds of requests. It was a very frustrating meeting.

Another issue at hand at school is that last year, as a freshman, Tim

was required to begin a " work study " program, also known as Vocational

Rehabilitaion, which involves nothing more than all the special needs

kids cleaning up the lunchroom when the regular kids go back to class.

Tim got a C in the class because he didn't cooperate. He is not

retarded enough to not be offended, I'm afraid. He was told that when

he became a sophomore, he would begin to be paid for his work, but the

freshmen don't get paid at all. He has waited all this time to get

that paycheck. He is planning to buy himself a leather jacket . He

hasn't been paid yet this year, either, and now we find out that his

application through the state wasn't approved until last week, so he

won't get paid for ANY work done before then. No one ever gave my mom

a copy of Tim's rights concerning this program. Now we find out that

he should have been accepted to the state-funded (Oklahoma) program

when he turned 16. Only the school did not apply for him until this

fall. I am so mad about this that I could just scream. All the

while, he keeps telling people, " I have a job now. I get a paycheck,

it will be big! " The janitor he works with has told him he is going

to get the " big bucks " because he works so hard. It is the most

enraging situation. Has anyone out there every heard of such an

absurd program in a public high school? What should I do to make them

make it right? I am so mad about it I can't even think straight.

Well, I apologize for such a long introduction. It may be more than

anyone wants to take on! It is certainly overwhelming for me. My

main concern right now is making sure that Tim can read when he

graduates high school. LIke I told the principal, I can think of a

lot of jobs Tim could do or even volunteer at if he can read, but

there's not much out there for an illiterate disabled person. The

teacher had suggested that we look into a group home where they teach

mentally disabled folks to pick up trash for a living.

Where to go from here? I live an hour away from Tim. I don't know if

my parents would be willing to transfer him to my local school, which

I hear has a pretty good Special Ed program. I homeschool my own

kids, and I would try to school Tim as well, except that he gets

offended easily when he thinks he is being treated like one of the

kids. " I'm not a baby, " he says. So my school is probably not the

best place for him. Should I just try to make the system he's in work

for him, or is it a lost cause? Any advice would be greatly

appreciated. I think I am in over my head.

in OK

Click reply to all for messages to go to the list. Just hit reply for

messages to go to the sender of the message.

[Guest guest]

Not much help here. But yes, it does sound like Tim has a lot of untapped

potential. I think it's a good thing that you are so furious about the

school's response, or lack of response.

Wouldn't know how to advise you on specifics to improve the situation. But

here are a couple of links where you might find some useful info and,

possibly, advice.

http://www.wrightslaw.com/

DS_Teens_Plus/

Best of luck to you and your brother,

Bob

[Guest guest]

My son also uses the Edmark reading program but his is done by computer. It's

great!

Di

[Guest guest]

HI Holly:

In my opinion there are drugs that offer relief from various unwanted symptoms.

There are drugs that offer relief from pain and other physical aliments. Other

than that, I believe that no drug or vaccine ever ever cured, helped to cure,

prevented or helped to prevent any disease or disorder. The 300,000 drugs and

vaccines in the nations medicine chests today are doing nothing but polluting

the nations bloodstream, let alone ruining us financially. I believe the use of

drugs and vaccines In the treatment, control and prevention of disease, will

prove to be a dark chapter in American Medicine.

Bob Catalano

Introduction

I was a past member and am rejoining. My name is Holly. I am a SAHM to

iel (9) and Jenavieve (3). My husband is Jim. We live in lower Michigan.

iel was full vaxed. Even when he had a reaction to the flu and chicken

pox vaccines at 18 months old that landed us in children's hospital, I did what

the doctor told me to do. I hated it but didn't know better.

When I had my daughter, I started researching. I couldn't get my husband on

board until after our daughter had received two rounds of vaccinations. Then he

finally said no more until a year old. At a year old, I convinced him to wait

till she was two. He finally stopped asking when she is be vaccinated. He even

stands behind the decision now but I know he's not comfortable with it.

My mom gives me a hard time about it. I have tried giving her info but she

won't read it. She believes the doctors no matter what they say.

I discovered my son needed a booster MMR. I signed a waiver. Last week the

health department and school have me a hard time. I did a new waiver and a

statement and all seems fine now.

I am concerned because we live in a community with a large Amish population. I

was told that an Amish family in another state had Polio and that the Amish

families in my area had contact with the same family that had polio.

Both my children have asthma. My son is on singulair and it helps him. My

daughter is the sickly one. She is frequently on antibiotics for ear infections,

sinus infections and lung issues. I have tried homeopathic, herbs and

supplements. But none of it has helped them. We are hoping to move into a

different home FAST and hope that is what helps the kids.

My son was sickly and ADHD until he had his tonsils out a year ago. We found

out he had sleep apnea and after the tonsils came out, he is a different kid. He

and I take DMAE.

So I try to use natural treatments first. But I also have to depend on

mainstream medication because of the asthma issues. I wish my daughter didn't

have to be on antibiotics but nothing else has helped her. I have tried

everything suggest that we can afford. She is still nursing at almost 3.5 years

old.

I guess that is my long intro.

~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~

Holly;

Mommy to iel (5/96) & Jenavieve (5/02)

My blog... http://hosier77.blogspot.com/

[Guest guest]

Hi Holly,

Just a quick comment....have you ever considered acupuncture? We

tried it with my 9yo this year and had great results. I started

treatment with so-so results. My insurance covered 15 visits. It's

worth looking into! My son is also asthmatic, although he's not

been willing to try yet. We're working on him!

Also, I signed a waiver for my son last year. And it was very

uncomfortable for me as i work in the nurse's office at his school.

eek. So far, the nurses respect my decision, but i feel like they

certainly dont support it!

Good luck to you,

Bonnie

>

> I was a past member and am rejoining. My name is Holly. I am a

SAHM to iel (9) and Jenavieve (3). My husband is Jim. We live

in lower Michigan.

> iel was full vaxed. Even when he had a reaction to the flu

and chicken pox vaccines at 18 months old that landed us in

children's hospital, I did what the doctor told me to do. I hated it

but didn't know better.

> When I had my daughter, I started researching. I couldn't get my

husband on board until after our daughter had received two rounds of

vaccinations. Then he finally said no more until a year old. At a

year old, I convinced him to wait till she was two. He finally

stopped asking when she is be vaccinated. He even stands behind the

decision now but I know he's not comfortable with it.

> My mom gives me a hard time about it. I have tried giving her info

but she won't read it. She believes the doctors no matter what they

say.

> I discovered my son needed a booster MMR. I signed a waiver. Last

week the health department and school have me a hard time. I did a

new waiver and a statement and all seems fine now.

> I am concerned because we live in a community with a large Amish

population. I was told that an Amish family in another state had

Polio and that the Amish families in my area had contact with the

same family that had polio.

> Both my children have asthma. My son is on singulair and it helps

him. My daughter is the sickly one. She is frequently on antibiotics

for ear infections, sinus infections and lung issues. I have tried

homeopathic, herbs and supplements. But none of it has helped them.

We are hoping to move into a different home FAST and hope that is

what helps the kids.

> My son was sickly and ADHD until he had his tonsils out a year

ago. We found out he had sleep apnea and after the tonsils came out,

he is a different kid. He and I take DMAE.

> So I try to use natural treatments first. But I also have to

depend on mainstream medication because of the asthma issues. I wish

my daughter didn't have to be on antibiotics but nothing else has

helped her. I have tried everything suggest that we can afford. She

is still nursing at almost 3.5 years old.

> I guess that is my long intro.

> ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~

> Holly;

> Mommy to iel (5/96) & Jenavieve (5/02)

> My blog... http://hosier77.blogspot.com/

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

At 11:58 PM 10/24/2005 -0400, you wrote:

>HI Holly:

>

>In my opinion there are drugs that offer relief from various unwanted

symptoms. There are drugs that offer relief from pain and other physical

aliments. Other than that, I believe that no drug or vaccine ever ever

cured, helped to cure, prevented or helped to prevent any disease or

disorder. The 300,000 drugs and vaccines in the nations medicine chests

today are doing nothing but polluting the nations bloodstream, let alone

ruining us financially. I believe the use of drugs and vaccines In the

treatment, control and prevention of disease, will prove to be a dark

chapter in American Medicine.

>

>Bob Catalano

All drugs do is SUPPRESS - they suppress symptoms which are trying to

dissipate a disturbance. They are the outlet. If you stop the symptoms,

you drive the disturbance deeper. NO DRUGS EVER cure.

Sheri

> Introduction

>

>

> I was a past member and am rejoining. My name is Holly. I am a SAHM to

iel (9) and Jenavieve (3). My husband is Jim. We live in lower Michigan.

> iel was full vaxed. Even when he had a reaction to the flu and

chicken pox vaccines at 18 months old that landed us in children's

hospital, I did what the doctor told me to do. I hated it but didn't know

better.

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Classical Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

vaccineinfo@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm

ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS MEDICAL

OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE DECISION TO VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

******

" Just look at us. Everything is backwards; everything is upside down.

Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy

knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information

and religions destroy spirituality " .... Ellner