Sleep Apnea

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

It has been said that many have been helped with their sleep apnea from losing weight and also from improving their body functions. Life Lift can be helpful with both.I have read a great deal about sleep apnea and it seems to always say that eliminating excess weight can be very beneficial. I also understand that stress reduction can often be helpful as well. I have not had any messages regarding the direct results of sleep apnea, however the other health benefits are so great that it certainly seems probable that your problems would be helped also.

I wish you luck on this.

Take care,

Rashelle

Be sure to check out all of the great specials available on my web sites Save $30 on the Large Body Wrap package until Aril 30th.You are welcome to visit us at http://www.angelmagic.com or http://www.lifelift.com These are Rashelle's personal web sites, any others belong to distributors.join our discussion group at LifeLift-subscribeonelist

[Guest guest]

Bless your heart,

I have seen people suffer this way and it can be really difficult. I certainly hope that you will find some relief. I have had some sleep therapists send patients to me and we found that if you do about 5 or 10 breaths at bedtime, no positions, just the breaths, in bed, that they not only sleep better, but also have more energy in the morning. I would love to hear that this helps. So give it a try. Just do some deep breaths and focus in your mind on awakening feeling refreshed and happy. Let me know if this helps you.

Take care,

Rashelle

Be sure to check out all of the great specials available on my web sites Save $30 on the Large Body Wrap package until Aril 30th.You are welcome to visit us at http://www.angelmagic.com or http://www.lifelift.com These are Rashelle's personal web sites, any others belong to distributors.join our discussion group at LifeLift-subscribeonelist

Rashelle,Thanks for your encouragement....now all I need to do is get the energy to put the tapes in the VCR!!!

[Guest guest]

There are two kinds of sleep apnea. The most common in the population is

obstructive sleep apnea, where your throat closes off due to loose tension

in the area, the construction of your throat, excess weight, etc. Some

people have central sleep apnea, which from what I understand is that your

body forgets to breathe because something isn't firing right somewhere. I

have always wondered if perhaps PWCs might have this at a higher rate than

the general population and if it might constitute a subset of CFIDS.

If you are being awakened by apnea, it's about a sure bet that you are also

being *almost* awakened many more times a night by the problem, which messes

up your sleep and you don't realize it.

I did a sleep study and was diagnosed with central sleep apnea (I stopped

breathing twice during the study but did not fully awaken), and with

restrictive airway disorder, which means no obstructions are fully blocking

my airway but I'm not getting enough air in.

One of the things the sleep doctor wrote in his report was that sedatives

are counterproductive for restricted airway disorder, and I would assume

obstructive apnea, because they cause muscle relaxation that exacerbates the

problem in the throat. However, he never addressed the central apnea

problem, so I don't know if Klonopin would be considered helpful or harmful.

What we did in my case was to leave me on clonazepam since I have such

trouble getting to sleep at an appropriate hour (I work), and put me on a

continuous positive airway pressure machine to ensure I get enough air while

asleep.

Definitely see if you can get a doc to order a full-blown overnight sleep

study. Failing that, at least an overnight oxygenation profile may be of

use. If he or she balks because you don't fit the " obstructive sleep apnea

profile " because of age, sex, or weight, point out the possibility of

central apnea and the fact that you know of people with CFIDS who have it. I

suggested a sleep study years ago, but the doctor thought it was fairly

unlikely so he didn't push the insurance company to pay for even the cheap

study. If we had done it then, I would have been treated for the problem a

long time ago.

If you have obstructive apnea, getting treatment can make a huge

difference--I know several people (not PWCs) whose lives were vastly changed

for the better by not being almost awakened dozens to hundreds of times a

night by breathing problems. In my case, it's not so dramatic a subjective

benefit, but the sleep study showed poor blood oxygenation, which as we've

discussed is a very bad thing, so I feel the treatment is important.

I'm also able to sleep in longer chunks without being awakened to go to the

bathroom, five or even six hours a night. I assume this helps me get to a

deeper level of sleep (during the first sleep study, I was in " stage 4

sleep " for all of 2 minutes). Curiously, this benefit has carried over even

when I don't use the machine. It's like my body is being retrained to sleep

and not get up every hour or two to either urinate or drink water because

I'm so thirsty.

Double-edged sword, though: I sleep better, but because I'm not awake, I

can't drink water, so I am more dehydrated in the morning, contributing to

my difficulties in getting my blood pressure up to alert levels. I think

whatever mechanism is forcing too much fluid out of my system has calmed

down a little bit with the deeper sleep, but it's still dysfunctional and

causing problems.

Hope this helps,

>From: StarDantzer@...

>Reply-egroups

>egroups

>Subject: Sleep Apnea

>Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 15:00:31 -0000

>

>Has anyone else experienced sleep apnea? What happens is that you

>stop breathing during sleep. Usually you wake up with a loud snort,

>gasping for air. It is really very terrifying. It has been happening

>to me alot lately and I wonder if it would go under the heading

>of " sleep disorders " that I have read are common for CFS. Anyone

>think that Klonopin may help with it? a >^..^<

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[Guest guest]

For what it's worth, I suspect that the central sleep apnea in

CFIDS results from the respiratory center in the brain decreasing

the minute volume (product of rate of breathing and depth of

breathing) in response to the decreased carbon dioxide

content of the blood.

In a normal, healthy person, this is a normal regulatory function

that

works by decreasing the exhalation rate of carbon dioxide, so as to

raise its concentration in the blood back to a normal level. This is

important for controlling the blood pH, which affects the transport

of

oxygen into the cells.

The problem in PWCs is that the carbon dioxide production rate drops

too low, because of partial blockades in the intermediary metabolism.

The lowered metabolic rate means that the food is being oxidized at a

lower rate than normal, and the rate of production of carbon dioxide

is therefore lower than normal. (This also accounts for feeling cold

all the time, even though the thyroid hormones may be normal.) The

result is that the respiratory center tries to raise the carbon

dioxide concentration in the blood back to normal, but can't fully do

so. In attempting to do so, it lowers the rate of breathing to the

point that the person stops breathing when they are asleep and can't

consciously remind themselves to breathe. Also, since it is unable to

fully correct the pH of the blood, the supply of oxygen to the cells

is now limited for two reasons: first because the pH is too alkaline,

and second because the rate and depth of breathing have been lowered

too much. This accounts for the feeling of not getting enough oxygen.

If this is all true, the best solution is to remove the partial

blockades in the intermediary metabolism, although the breathing

machines will solve the immediate problem of not being able to sleep.

The problem in removing the partial blockades is to determine what's

causing them in a particular PWC. It doesn't seem to be the same for

everyone. Rather, there seem to be subsets, with different root

causes for the partial blockades. The largest subset appears to be

those with glutathione depletion. The solution for them seems to

involve building the glutathione inventory back up, and nondenatured

whey protein products such as ImmunePro seem to do that. The reason

this doesn't work for every PWC is that they are not all in the main

subset.

Rich

> There are two kinds of sleep apnea. The most common in the

population is

> obstructive sleep apnea, where your throat closes off due to loose

tension

> in the area, the construction of your throat, excess weight, etc.

Some

> people have central sleep apnea, which from what I understand is

that your

> body forgets to breathe because something isn't firing right

somewhere. I

> have always wondered if perhaps PWCs might have this at a higher

rate than

> the general population and if it might constitute a subset of CFIDS.

>

> If you are being awakened by apnea, it's about a sure bet that you

are also

> being *almost* awakened many more times a night by the problem,

which messes

> up your sleep and you don't realize it.

>

> I did a sleep study and was diagnosed with central sleep apnea (I

stopped

> breathing twice during the study but did not fully awaken), and

with

> restrictive airway disorder, which means no obstructions are fully

blocking

> my airway but I'm not getting enough air in.

>

> One of the things the sleep doctor wrote in his report was that

sedatives

> are counterproductive for restricted airway disorder, and I would

assume

> obstructive apnea, because they cause muscle relaxation that

exacerbates the

> problem in the throat. However, he never addressed the central

apnea

> problem, so I don't know if Klonopin would be considered helpful or

harmful.

>

> What we did in my case was to leave me on clonazepam since I have

such

> trouble getting to sleep at an appropriate hour (I work), and put

me

on a

> continuous positive airway pressure machine to ensure I get enough

air while

> asleep.

>

> Definitely see if you can get a doc to order a full-blown overnight

sleep

> study. Failing that, at least an overnight oxygenation profile may

be of

> use. If he or she balks because you don't fit the " obstructive

sleep

apnea

> profile " because of age, sex, or weight, point out the possibility

of

> central apnea and the fact that you know of people with CFIDS who

have it. I

> suggested a sleep study years ago, but the doctor thought it was

fairly

> unlikely so he didn't push the insurance company to pay for even

the

cheap

> study. If we had done it then, I would have been treated for the

problem a

> long time ago.

>

> If you have obstructive apnea, getting treatment can make a huge

> difference--I know several people (not PWCs) whose lives were

vastly

changed

> for the better by not being almost awakened dozens to hundreds of

times a

> night by breathing problems. In my case, it's not so dramatic a

subjective

> benefit, but the sleep study showed poor blood oxygenation, which

as

we've

> discussed is a very bad thing, so I feel the treatment is important.

>

> I'm also able to sleep in longer chunks without being awakened to

go

to the

> bathroom, five or even six hours a night. I assume this helps me

get

to a

> deeper level of sleep (during the first sleep study, I was in

" stage

4

> sleep " for all of 2 minutes). Curiously, this benefit has carried

over even

> when I don't use the machine. It's like my body is being retrained

to sleep

> and not get up every hour or two to either urinate or drink water

because

> I'm so thirsty.

>

> Double-edged sword, though: I sleep better, but because I'm not

awake, I

> can't drink water, so I am more dehydrated in the morning,

contributing to

> my difficulties in getting my blood pressure up to alert levels. I

think

> whatever mechanism is forcing too much fluid out of my system has

calmed

> down a little bit with the deeper sleep, but it's still

dysfunctional and

> causing problems.

>

> Hope this helps,

>

>

>

> >From: StarDantzer@a...

> >Reply-egroups

> >egroups

> >Subject: Sleep Apnea

> >Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 15:00:31 -0000

> >

> >Has anyone else experienced sleep apnea? What happens is that you

> >stop breathing during sleep. Usually you wake up with a loud snort,

> >gasping for air. It is really very terrifying. It has been

happening

> >to me alot lately and I wonder if it would go under the heading

> >of " sleep disorders " that I have read are common for CFS. Anyone

> >think that Klonopin may help with it? a >^..^<

>

>

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___

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>

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[Guest guest]

I had an overnight sleep study done at a sleep lab, and was diagnosed

with " mild obstructive sleep apnea " . It was borderline whether

insurance would pay for the CPAP machine based on # of apnea events per

hour by itself, but the doctor wrote a convincing letter explaining that

I had CFS, fibromyalgia, and migraines, all of which were greatly

exacerbated by the apneas. Insurance paid the monthly rental fee until

the total reached the " medicare price " (inflated) of the machine; now

it's mine.

I've been on the CPAP machine for about 2.5 years now, and it has made a

wonderful difference for me. I sleep through the night without waking,

AND I WAKE FEELING RESTED almost every morning. No more waking up with

a raging headache, either. Decreased headaches during the day, greatly

decreased daytime sleepiness, less " brain-fog " . The muscle pain and

stiffness of fibromyalgia is greatly reduced (I can actually get out of

bed more or less gracefully, instead of having to fall out of bed, haul

myself up, and lurch off to the bathroom like I used to ;@). Also, I've

discovered that I fall asleep faster when I am using the CPAP machine -

it's like my body now trusts that it's OK to let go, I'm not going to

die or anything. I no longer take 1-2 naps per day; it's more like 1

nap per week. And I spend much less time vegged out in a horizontal

position staring out the windows - overall alertness and energy is

improved.

As you can tell, I'm quite enthusiastic about my CPAP machine! I use it

every time I lie down, even for a short nap. My chocolate lab has

learned that we can cuddle in bed, but when the machine comes on, she

lies down at my feet and goes to sleep until the machine is turned off.

It does take a little getting used to, and if it doesn't work for you at

first, you need to hang in there and pester the company providing it for

you to try different types of masks and headgear. I started with the

standard face mask, and kept pulling it off all night. I don't know

ANYBODY who likes the standard face mask! After two weeks, I called and

told them to take the damn thing away, I couldn't use it. They then

switched me to the " circuit " (nasal pillows), and I find it very

comfortable. My sister swears by the Mirage headpiece. There is even a

setup where you use a custom-molded biteplate to keep the nasal pillows

in place, no straps around the head but a velcro strap on a T-shirt to

hold the hose in place!

For more info, check out the newsgroup alt.support.sleep-disorders. If

you end up needing to buy the equipment for yourself because of no

insurance, check out www.cpapman.com for good prices (and lots of

pictures and explanations).

BTW, the sleep specialist who did my sleep study looked at the list of

meds I was taking for sleep, and said that none of them would make my

apnea worse. Included on this list was Klonopin, Trazedone, and

occasionally Ambien. No medication will cure obstructive sleep apnea;

only surgery (ugh!) and CPAP or BiPAP machines are of use.

ly, I think most people with CFS and/or Fibromyalgia ought to have

an overnight sleep study done. Sleep apnea produces many of the same

symptoms, and some people who thought they had these illnesses found

they disappeared when using their CPAP machine consistently. For most

of us, though, the CPAP just " peels off a layer " of symptoms - but every

bit helps.

--

el - andrea@...

(IFF " FNORD " appears - remove it from my email address to reply)

" ...wake now! Discover that you are the song that the morning brings... "

[Guest guest]

From: el [mailto:andrea@...]

I've been on the CPAP machine for about 2.5 years now, and it has made a

wonderful difference for me.

- Thanks for the detailed info on apnea. I was diagnosed (stop

breathing every few minutes) but was never able to adjust to CPAP machine.

You gave some very good ideas which I'll look into (and show my doc)

... instead of having to fall out of bed, haul

myself up, and lurch off to the bathroom like I used to ;@).

Such a good/accurate word picture!

I started with the

standard face mask, and kept pulling it off all night.

This is what I do, so I gave up. I kept pulling it off and I had no

conscious memory of doing so, just the mask and tubing lying on the floor in

the morning. Will try to get the items you mentioned.

No medication will cure obstructive sleep apnea;

only surgery (ugh!) and CPAP or BiPAP machines are of use.

According to my doc even surgery won't help my apnea because of what they

think is going on when I stop breathing. l As near as they can figure out,

the muscles in my trachea relax and it collapses when I sleep. I don't

think surgery can help this.

ly, I think most people with CFS and/or Fibromyalgia ought to have

an overnight sleep study done.

I agree. I know I've had apnea for at least 25 years. I told my all my

doctors about it all these years, but they said it was impossible because I

didn't fit the " profile " (I was young, female, skinny, and don't snore - yet

I know without a doubt that I had pretty bad apnea even back then, but docs

refused to even consider it because of my profile). Who knows what 25 years

of moderately severe UNTREATED apnea can do to your health!!!

Patti

--

[Guest guest]

on 8/31/00 11:00 AM, StarDantzer@... at StarDantzer@... wrote:

> Has anyone else experienced sleep apnea? What happens is that you

> stop breathing during sleep. Usually you wake up with a loud snort,

> gasping for air. It is really very terrifying. It has been happening

> to me alot lately and I wonder if it would go under the heading

> of " sleep disorders " that I have read are common for CFS. Anyone

> think that Klonopin may help with it?

a,

Pardon my lack of grace but ... ARE YOU KIDDING???!!!

Benzodiazepines (including clonazepam) are contra-indicated for those with

sleep apnea because they actually make the problem worse. What happens is

that the benzos are respiratory depressants, so they make it more likely

that you will have apneic episodes. Benzos are some of the worst meds for

people with apnea.

Apnea is a very serious problem which should be assessed by a sleep lab.

Untreated apnea often leads to damage to the heart and brain (lack of

oxygen) and certainly makes recovery from chronic fatigue impossible. Apnea

is very treatable and can restore people to full functionality.

BTW, sleep apnea is a condition that occurrs to PWC more frequently than the

standard population. In fact, studies have shown that around 40% if men

with Fibromyalgia also have sleep apnea!

Get that looked after!

Hud

[Guest guest]

Hud, I agree with your recommendation to get the apnea looked at pronto

via a sleep study, but my doctor says benzodiazepines are not

necessarily contraindicated for people with sleep apnea. It depends on

the dosage being used, and also on whether the apnea is central or

obstructive.

I have mild obstructive sleep apnea, use a CPAP machine, and use a low

dose (.5 mg) of Klonopin - and this has been OK, with no signs of

respiratory depression.

People vary, and the real answer is to get a sleep study done and work

closely with the sleep doctor re the bedtime medicines. Many people who

previously used a variety of meds to get to sleep find they can do

without all or most of them once they've adjusted to using CPAP, or had

the surgery done. I find that the low dose of Klonopin relaxes the

tense muscles that prevent falling asleep.

--

el - andrea@...

(IFF " FNORD " appears - remove it from my email address to reply)

" ...wake now! Discover that you are the song that the morning brings... "

[Guest guest]

on 9/03/00 7:11 PM, el at andrea@... wrote:

> Hud, I agree with your recommendation to get the apnea looked at pronto

> via a sleep study, but my doctor says benzodiazepines are not

> necessarily contraindicated for people with sleep apnea. It depends on

> the dosage being used, and also on whether the apnea is central or

> obstructive.

,

I'll agree to that!

Hud

[Guest guest]

,

Sorry, that is one problem we have not had yet.

Jeannie

[Guest guest]

,

Wow! Wonder why they never notified you? All I can offer are prayers and

(((((hugs))))) sorry. Wish I had words of wisdom to offer.

Gail

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

Does anyone have a problem with Sleep Apnea (Kids, I mean)

Yesterday, I had to pick Matt up from school, take him to the doctor to

prove he did not have pink eye (He went swimming on Sunday)

and in that visit, the doc said he had an ear infection and the eardrum

was retracted. tube is out.

So today, we went to the ENT. A couple of months ago, he had a sleep

study and they didnt' call me concerned, so I figured it was like all

other " negative " tests, and if there was a concern, they would call. So

this morning when we went to the ENT, it was positive for apnea. I guess

he has 15 episodes per hour! Seems like an awful lot to me! They said if

he was an adult, he would have heart and lung problems from it, but they

dont 'have statistics on kids. Great. So, they will be calling me to set

up an appt with the sleep clinic to put him on CPAP! I dont know how I am

going to keep him on it, but if he continues to get worse, I think the

only other option is a tracheostomy. I don't want that! He had a Tand A

when he was about 16 months old. He has a submucous cleft, and I think he

said it is contributing to the sleep apnea. He has had 2 other sleep

studies, the first one was negative, the 2nd was " suspicious " but not

conclusive for apnea. So, my observation of the symptoms getting worse as

he grows is correct. I dont' see it " fixing " itself. I am just beside

myself today with this.

Any voices of experience out there?????

S

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[Guest guest]

,

I just came home from a sleep study done at Children's hospital last night.

's sleep study was done to see if the surgery he recently had (Lazered

part of his Epiglotis, flopping over his airway when he slept) did the trick.

He isn't sleeping in class very much anymore although occassionally he falls

asleep. We should have results within the next two weeks. A tracheotomy is

not the answer. We've been through that too.

[Guest guest]

,

That sounds really scary, I don't have any real advice here. Brook did

have his tonsils and adenoids out when he was 4 years old and we believe that

helps his breathing. What were Matts' symptoms that were getting worse? Brook

goes to his pediatric ENT next week to check on his ear tubes since he gets

so many ear infections and his ped can't really see them to well. Good luck.

Marisa

[Guest guest]

They rarely tell me of nathan's tests either, he just had another sleep study

done last month, and i figured they would callme if anything was off, but no

one has, and we have another appontment in a couple of weeks, he sees psyc,

oto, and ds clinic all day, they will let me know, here i get to ask all the

questions i want and they go out of their way to answer them or help find the

answers. AI really hate when docs have blood drawn or other culture and

sensitivity reports and say they will call you in a couple days then a week

goes by and you just give in and call them and oh my gosh he needs to be on

this antibiotic etc. talk about not faoolowing through, uuhh. shawna.

[Guest guest]

i do hope things turn out ok, i know what you mean about having them wear the

cp, nathan wont even wear his ear plugs special made for him. lots of prayers

and luck. shawna.

[Guest guest]

,

Thanks for answering. they still havent' called me back about scheduling

the CPAP thing. Have you ever done that?

S

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[Guest guest]

I didn't have the CPAP done because I knew wouldn't let them strap a

mask on his face which gives out oxegyn. It covers the whole face and he

would freak. We even thought about an oxegyn tent at night until we had him

scoped and saw what was actually causing the problem, so we corrected it.

Hope it worked. We'll know soon. We are seeing an improvement as far as

sleeping in school.

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 6 Oct 2000 11:00:10 EDT MBrayley@... writes:

> I didn't have the CPAP done because I knew wouldn't let them

> strap a

> mask on his face which gives out oxegyn. It covers the whole face

> and he

> would freak. We even thought about an oxegyn tent at night until we

> had him

> scoped and saw what was actually causing the problem, so we

> corrected it.

> Hope it worked. We'll know soon. We are seeing an improvement as

> far as

> sleeping in school.

>

>

The ENT is putting a tube in Matt's bad ear next Thursday and is supposed

to be looking at adenoids to see if they need to be reduced as a possible

cause. It is all obstructive, (as opposed to central where the brain

" forgets " to breath). Matt is not freaky about the surgery mask, so I am

hoping that if I tell him enough that the " Daddy doctor " says he needs to

put it on at night, he will. All we can do is try. DH suggested just

oxygen. THat wont' work, as the problem is the obstruction in the first

place. They havent' called me back yet to schedule this. I am getting

pretty preterbed! On one hand the doc is insisting how " dangerous " this

is, but then I can't get anyone to call me back to schedule.

S

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[Guest guest]

,

Good luck with the CPap, I hope it works well. has also had his

tonsils and adenoids out when he was younger and I didn't think there was

anymore that they could take out/ When we looked through the scope and saw

his Epiglotis, it was obvious what was causing the problem. Our ENT is real

good and has rebuilt 's entire airway with his rib cartledge. I hope

this is the last of his problems . Has your ENT suggested scoping to see if

there is any obstruction that could be causing the sleep apnea? It's a real

simple procedure, done in the doctors office and takes only a nose spray to

numb the nose and a few minutes to look down there. I was pretty amazed.

Good luck.

[Guest guest]

i doesnt cover the whole face, it has a nose peice thats sort of shoots O2

in, when level drop below what is set, remends me of a scuba thing maybe, but

i agree any of our kids wouldnt tolerate it well, im still tring just to get

nathan to actually sleep at night. shawna.

[Guest guest]

> i agree any of our kids wouldn't tolerate it well

My son had to wear a whole face mask since he is a mouth breather. We tried

several nasal masks but not worked. In fact, the whole c-pap didn't work.

We tried the regular c-pap for several months, then the bi-pap and have been

housing the smart c-pap (the best) for over a year now. He rarely wears it.

He seems more tired in the morning after he does as am I since the alarm

keeps going off when there is a break in the seal of the mask when he rolls

over. He is going for another sleep study (has been 2 years since the last)

to determine if there is any deoxygenation when he is sitting up (his regular

position - since his problem is base tongue he has automatically sat up

whenever he had an apneic period. With his nose on the base of the bed,

between his open legs, his airway remains open.) The new psychologist who is

on my son's case now recommends doing nothing at this point if there is no

deoxygenation if he is able to correct the apnea himself. By the way, my son

just turned 15 yesterday.

Caroline

[Guest guest]

You know, Beatrice, there is a sleep apnea egroup that I

discovered by accident. Just search for " sleep apnea. "

The main thing to do is lose weight if overweight, or

use a CPAP.

jp

Sleep apnea

I'd appreciate it if you could explain how to deal with sleep apnea.

Many thanks.

Beatrice

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[Guest guest]

Janet ..

>

> me. I quit breathing for 30 second at a time during the night and

> then gasp

> for breath, I snore, toss and turn

Yep, that's it, all right. Husband also has it. Weird.... his loud

snoring doesn't bother me a

bit. What wakes me up is the apnea. He exhales, then silence for about

30 seconds like you

said, then a gasp and a snort and resumes breathing/snoring again.

Sometimes i poke or rub

him to get him to breathe again. Scary.

Pls. let us know what your sleep studies say, and what treatment if

any is available, okay?

Good luck to you.

Sue

--

" She was not quite what you would call refined.

She was not quite what you would call unrefined.

She was the kind of person that keeps a parrot. "

-- Mark Twain

Rich and Sue Owens

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Meadows/7457/index3.html

[Guest guest]

try going to this link to find out more about sleep apnea...

www.thedailyapple.com/target/cs/article/tda/100843.html#ITEM%204

sure hope link works

JES in NJ, USA

God creted your face... You create the expression

> Pls. let us know what your sleep studies say, and what treatment

if

> any is available, okay?

> Good luck to you.

> Sue

>

> --

> " She was not quite what you would call refined.

> She was not quite what you would call unrefined.

> She was the kind of person that keeps a parrot. "

> -- Mark Twain

>

> Rich and Sue Owens

> http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Meadows/7457/index3.html