Re: Avoiding Vac shots at birth

October 4, 2000

This is failrly simple to me. I just let the midwives know ahead of time that

we were " delaying " vaccs. Wrote in the birth plan that we were delaying

vaccs. That we wanted no hep b, no vit k, no eye ointment, no circ. We signed

some papers with the midwives ahead of time saying we wanted none of that.

Then when we got there, in between contractions I reminded them, " We don't

want vit. k, eye ointment, and if it's a boy, no circ, and no hep b. Do not

do anything to this baby without verbal permission " . I also told them

verbally as well as in my birth plan that we did not want the baby taken from

our site.

Well, the baby was NEVER out of our site. I delivered, held and nursed for a

while, then when I decided it was ok, I had walk the baby to the

nursery, go in the nursery with the baby and be tehre the whole time they

were weighing and measuring. Baby was brought back, I held baby all night in

bed with me, or he held occasionally on him, but neither of them was ever

out of our site. There is just no reason for it. Not only for the

vaccination issue, but babies can be switched or taken. Plus, it's not

uncommon for nurses in the nursery to not want to bother the mom, so they

just give the baby a bottle ( they also like to hold them) So, there are ways

to prevent unnecessary procedures. And it was easy for me, I didn't WANT to

be away from my babies! I wanted them with me at all times. Just don't send

the baby to the nursery!

October 4, 2000

Mark: depending on what state you're in hep b is the only shot given at birth

and it is not required, only recommended. Check with your state laws. I;m

sure someone else here can tell you what the requirements are for your state.

Dont be intimidated by being confrontational. You're talking about saving

your babies life.If you have to be confrontational, do so. My baby was in

intensive care at birth and they wanted to give her a hep b vac. I got very

confrontational by sceaming hell no don't vaccinate her, after they had tried

to talk me into vaccinating.

You're the only one who can stand up for the life and well being of your

child.

Good Luck!

October 4, 2000

Dear Mark, I think putting your wishes in writing and adding the document to

the hospital chart might be a good idea. However, hospital staff should ask

you wether you want the baby to be vaccinated or not, you need to give

consent for any medical procedure.

We recently had a baby, and just stated that we did not wish for her to

receive the Hep B vaccine.(IL)

HOWEVER - we made sure that the baby was never alone with hospital staff- my

husband would always go along if any blooddraw other other procedure was

performed elsewhere than in the hospital room. Do NOT let anyone tell you

that you don't have the right to be with your baby!!!

Actually,if I were to have a third baby I would just deliver her at home.

Apart from other benefits, I wouldn't have to worry about shots.

Good luck!!

Lilian

>From: msclarol9@...

>Reply-Vaccinationsegroups

>Vaccinationsegroups

>Subject: Avoiding Vac shots at birth

>Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:44:35 EDT

>

>Hello listmembers,

>

> My wife and I have been reading messages on list for a while

>now.

>This is the first time I personally have written for advice regarding

>avoiding our baby being vaccinated at birth. I'm under the impression that

>members of the group suggest keeping a very low profile and don't even let

>your wishes be known prior to the delivery hospital stay. This is my

>problem

>with this approach.

> A consent form has to be signed. Once that is done, if our

>wishes

>aren' t made clear prior to that, well then the hospital does have the

>right

>to follow their protocal and give shots then. We're taking a stab in the

>dark that at some point we can say to someone, " oh by the way - we're going

>to wait and have our pediatrician give the shots down the road " and they'll

>say OK to that. Its seems to me they'll say its typical procedure and do it

>anyway. And it may be typical protocal to take the baby into another room

>for

>a minute , ask the father to stay put a minute , and give the baby his

>shots.

>I then am in a conflict situation 1.saying don't take the baby out of my

>site and 2.At that point saying don't give my baby any shots.

> I'm of the mind that I need to get the consent forms in advance

>,

>have our OB do what ever is necessary to make it clear and in writing

>that

>the baby is not to be vaccinated at that time. (Obviously, OB has to be of

>like mind) . If its not cleared ahead of time , then there is no guarantee

>that our wishes will be carried out. In fact by signing regular consent

>form,

>were authorizing them to do their normal procedure and sacrificing our

>ability to have our will carried out. To me , this seems like a very

>possible

>confrontational situation. I'm only suggesting that we tell them , that we

>want to delay the vaccinations. Opinions and first hand experience would

>be

>appreciated.

>

>Regards,

>Mark

>P.S. I am using my wifes email address so as to avoud me signing up for

>list

>also.

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October 4, 2000

Good for you!!!!!!

Lilian

>From: seaway007@...

>Reply-Vaccinationsegroups

>Vaccinationsegroups

>Subject: Re: Avoiding Vac shots at birth

>Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:28:00 EDT

>

>Mark: depending on what state you're in hep b is the only shot given at

>birth

>and it is not required, only recommended. Check with your state laws. I;m

>sure someone else here can tell you what the requirements are for your

>state.

>

>Dont be intimidated by being confrontational. You're talking about saving

>your babies life.If you have to be confrontational, do so. My baby was in

>intensive care at birth and they wanted to give her a hep b vac. I got very

>confrontational by sceaming hell no don't vaccinate her, after they had

>tried

>to talk me into vaccinating.

>You're the only one who can stand up for the life and well being of your

>child.

>Good Luck!

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October 4, 2000

In a message dated 10/4/00 1:54:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

1levy1@... writes:

>

> The only way to guarantee that unwanted procedures will not be performed on

> your

> baby (or wife) either during labour or after the birth is to not give birth

> in a

> hospital. Unless there are medical conditions that require a hospital

> birth,

> home is the only place to avoid unnecessary interventions.

I had a hospital birth (twice) and never had any unecessary procedures on my

children. I think you're stating something as a fact too widely. Both of my

birts were peaceful, enmedicated, natural births with no disctractions or

interuptions at all.

Unfortunately when a family has a hospital birth they are made to feel as

though

> the baby is not really theirs until they are discharged. Good luck.

>

Again, I was never made to feel this way. My hospital never came and wanted

to take the baby or made me fell like either of them weren't mine. They

asked me things, what I wanted to do, if I wanted them to bath them or if I

wanted to. Did I want them to take the baby while I was in the shower or keep

the baby with me. Noone every questioned who was in charge of that baby.

Noone ever bothered us. It was wonderful. Hospitals can be a great place to

have a baby, especially due to thefact that we have only 2 lay midwives in

our area who will do home births and I don't find either of them very

trustworthy. I chose 2 wonderful CNM's in a hospital/birth center setting and

couldn't have asked anymore!

October 4, 2000

In a message dated 10/4/00 8:48:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

msclarol9@... writes:

<< If its not cleared ahead of time , then there is no guarantee

that our wishes will be carried out. >>

I have read that babies are vaccinated regardless of whether you sign a paper

prior to the birth,after the birth,or never. I am not sure if the OB gets the

paper for declining any procedures prior to your being in the hospital(as I

gave birth at home),but you can put your wishes in a birth plan to be given

to OB/L & D staff.Regardless you must NEVER let the baby out of your site.Shots

and other procedures are routine for staff,and your baby may accidentally get

something done to him/her that you had declined.

Good luck!

Sara

October 4, 2000

In a message dated 10/4/00 4:28:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

1levy1@... writes:

> ). I have also been to births where, even though they

> have rooming in, the women are told tat they can't take their baby out of a

> certain area of the hospital - this is insane - it is the woman's baby and

> she

> should be able to take her wherever she wants!

I guess my hospital didn't care about this either. My husband took my

son for a ride on an elevator shortly after birth and I think to the gift

shop or something.

My point with my first letter is you can have a good hospital birth. It just

takes some questions. People can't expect to walk up to the first ob they

find without asking questions and have the wonderful birth I had. It's

really in the caregiver. There are even decent obs I have run across who

don't just do episiotomites for the heck of it or routine inductions. And,

yes, my hospital is when of the better hospitals in the area, but it's sad

the number of women who go to the hospital a few miles away wher they are

told they have to labor in bed and they get an episiotomy pushed on them when

they do have a abetter option! Most hospitals around here that I know of do

have rooming in as the norm now, but nurses will take the baby if you ask. .

October 4, 2000

I think a very important issue here is to check the policy with your

hospital or birth center beforehand. The hospital I gave birth at gave no

vaccinations at birth. They did do the eye ointment. There were other

policies, though, that I didn't question at the time of the birth of my

daughter. For my next child, things will be done differently. However, I

more or less roomed in with my daughter and that helped keep interventions

at a minimum. I usually followed her to the nursery because I preferred to

if they took her there. The one thing our hospital did was routine hearing

test since she was low birth weight. So, finding out what policy is

beforehand is good. Go and talk to the nurses in L & D and the nursery to

find out what is regularly done.

Adrienne

October 4, 2000

Mark,

On the consent form that you have to sign write specifically what you

don't want and have the OB and nurse sign it too (hey, it goes both

ways right??!!). I agree with you that you should be upfront about

it. Be very careful and have someone with the baby ALWAYS!! Also,

I'm not 100% but I think there is a specific form for Hep B which you

have to sign before they give the shot bc they have to give you a

pamphlet to read prior to getting it (informed consent). Vit. K and

eye ointment are routine, always be with the baby and be ready to

take some abuse for not getting the shots!! Good luck.

-Dawn

> Hello listmembers,

>

> My wife and I have been reading messages on list for a

while now.

> This is the first time I personally have written for advice

regarding

> avoiding our baby being vaccinated at birth. I'm under the

impression that

> members of the group suggest keeping a very low profile and don't

even let

> your wishes be known prior to the delivery hospital stay. This is

my problem

> with this approach.

> A consent form has to be signed. Once that is done, if

our wishes

> aren' t made clear prior to that, well then the hospital does have

the right

> to follow their protocal and give shots then. We're taking a stab

in the

> dark that at some point we can say to someone, " oh by the way -

we're going

> to wait and have our pediatrician give the shots down the road " and

they'll

> say OK to that. Its seems to me they'll say its typical procedure

and do it

> anyway. And it may be typical protocal to take the baby into

another room for

> a minute , ask the father to stay put a minute , and give the baby

his shots.

> I then am in a conflict situation 1.saying don't take the baby out

of my

> site and 2.At that point saying don't give my baby any shots.

> I'm of the mind that I need to get the consent forms in

advance ,

> have our OB do what ever is necessary to make it clear and in

writing that

> the baby is not to be vaccinated at that time. (Obviously, OB has

to be of

> like mind) . If its not cleared ahead of time , then there is no

guarantee

> that our wishes will be carried out. In fact by signing regular

consent form,

> were authorizing them to do their normal procedure and sacrificing

our

> ability to have our will carried out. To me , this seems like a

very possible

> confrontational situation. I'm only suggesting that we tell them ,

that we

> want to delay the vaccinations. Opinions and first hand experience

would be

> appreciated.

>

> Regards,

> Mark

> P.S. I am using my wifes email address so as to avoud me signing

up for list

> also.

October 4, 2000

The only way to guarantee that unwanted procedures will not be performed on your

baby (or wife) either during labour or after the birth is to not give birth in a

hospital. Unless there are medical conditions that require a hospital birth,

home is the only place to avoid unnecessary interventions. Having said that,

and

respecting your choice to have a hospital birth, just remember that this is YOUR

baby and no policy or protocol should override that fact. No hospital personnel

has the right to take your baby out of your sight for any length of time.

Unfortunately when a family has a hospital birth they are made to feel as though

the baby is not really theirs until they are discharged. Good luck.

msclarol9@... wrote:

> Hello listmembers,

>

> My wife and I have been reading messages on list for a while now.

> This is the first time I personally have written for advice regarding

> avoiding our baby being vaccinated at birth. I'm under the impression that

> members of the group suggest keeping a very low profile and don't even let

> your wishes be known prior to the delivery hospital stay. This is my problem

> with this approach.

> A consent form has to be signed. Once that is done, if our wishes

> aren' t made clear prior to that, well then the hospital does have the right

> to follow their protocal and give shots then. We're taking a stab in the

> dark that at some point we can say to someone, " oh by the way - we're going

> to wait and have our pediatrician give the shots down the road " and they'll

> say OK to that. Its seems to me they'll say its typical procedure and do it

> anyway. And it may be typical protocal to take the baby into another room for

> a minute , ask the father to stay put a minute , and give the baby his shots.

> I then am in a conflict situation 1.saying don't take the baby out of my

> site and 2.At that point saying don't give my baby any shots.

> I'm of the mind that I need to get the consent forms in advance ,

> have our OB do what ever is necessary to make it clear and in writing that

> the baby is not to be vaccinated at that time. (Obviously, OB has to be of

> like mind) . If its not cleared ahead of time , then there is no guarantee

> that our wishes will be carried out. In fact by signing regular consent form,

> were authorizing them to do their normal procedure and sacrificing our

> ability to have our will carried out. To me , this seems like a very possible

> confrontational situation. I'm only suggesting that we tell them , that we

> want to delay the vaccinations. Opinions and first hand experience would be

> appreciated.

>

> Regards,

> Mark

> P.S. I am using my wifes email address so as to avoud me signing up for list

> also.

>

October 4, 2000

Hi . Thanks for your reply. This is my first baby & so I don't know

about things like a birth plan. Nobody's mentioned it at my ob-gyn office. Is

this birth plan something that is always done at some point during a doctor

visit prior to the birth?

October 4, 2000

In a message dated 10/4/00 8:57:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

msclarol9@... writes:

> Hi . Thanks for your reply. This is my first baby & so I don't know

> about things like a birth plan. Nobody's mentioned it at my ob-gyn office.

> Is

> this birth plan something that is always done at some point during a doctor

> visit prior to the birth

No, it's somethign you do on your own and take in for them to look at and

sign. YOu can find some examples on the internet, or there are some good

ideas in the Bradley book.

October 4, 2000

teresav26@... wrote:

> In a message dated 10/4/00 1:54:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> 1levy1@... writes:

>

> >

> > The only way to guarantee that unwanted procedures will not be performed on

> > your

> > baby (or wife) either during labour or after the birth is to not give birth

> > in a

> > hospital. Unless there are medical conditions that require a hospital

> > birth,

> > home is the only place to avoid unnecessary interventions.

>

> I had a hospital birth (twice) and never had any unecessary procedures on my

> children. I think you're stating something as a fact too widely. Both of my

> birts were peaceful, enmedicated, natural births with no disctractions or

> interuptions at all.

You were very lucky, and of course I was generalizing. However, I have attended

a lot of hospital births at many different hospitals in my city, and an

experience like yours is really the exception to the rule. The only way to have

that kind of birth experience in a hospital ( at least in my community) is to

have a midwife-attended hospital birth or to hire a doula (although that doesn't

guarantee much - just makes things easier). Of course we are also fortunate in

Ontario that we have regulated midwives whose services are funded by the

government and who have hospital privileges - in other words, you can have a

hospital birth and not even see a doctor or nurse during the birth. Even in our

" birth centres " (which are all just rooms in the birthing unit or a seperate

area, but still in the hospital - we don't have a free-standing birth centre

thanks to Premier [for those Ontarians who don't know - the Toronto Birth

Centre was all set to go - they had a location and everything else ready to go

but cut the funding very shortly after being elected]) a woman is subject

to the same interventions and hassles of staff coming and going as they please -

they just look prettier than the other rooms, and maybe have a prvate bath or

jacuzzi. I know from reading a lot about birth in North America that

unnecessary

interventions and unrespectful staff are pretty much the norm, and in fact the

community standards in my area are much more progessive than some areas in the

US

or other parts of Canada (there are still many hospitals that insist on enemas

and have central nurseries). I have also been to births where, even though they

have rooming in, the women are told tat they can't take their baby out of a

certain area of the hospital - this is insane - it is the woman's baby and she

should be able to take her wherever she wants! Thus my reason for generalizing.

>

October 5, 2000

In a message dated 10/4/00 8:58:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

msclarol9@... writes:

<< Is

this birth plan something that is always done at some point during a doctor

visit prior to the birth? >>

hi mark,

first of all, i know you have had lots of responses to your original

question--in my opinion, it is possible to have a good hospital birth, but

not always easy. let's assume you have an uneventful delivery, with that

said there are the ever present dangers in hospital maternity wards (where's

marci from HI--doesn't she work in a neonatal environment??). the vit k

shot, the eye ointments, the hepb, circumcision decisions, rooming in,

exclusive breastfeeding, ped. checkups, etc, etc...all of these you DO have a

choice in the matter, but won't always feel as though you do. i think the

more you plan ahead and the more prepared you are the better you, and you dw,

will fare. go visit, call the hospital where you will deliver--find out

their normal policies and ask how do you go about having different things

done at your child's birth (ie-a waiver filled out ahead of time etc.) talk

to your ob/midwife and ask them the same questions--what's their norm and how

would you go about having something different done. then be ready to be ever

vigilant when that baby comes out!! i think someone mentioned having the

delivery nurse also sign the birthplan after you go over it with her, so that

no one can ever say that they " didn't know " .

as far as the birth plan itself, this is just a " list " that covers all the

things that you and your dw want to happen or not happen during the birth of

your child--episiotomy, epidural, circ., eye drops, vax, letting her

determine when she'll start to deliver, whether you want to let her water

break on it's own, whether you want a fetal monitor, etc. etc. there are

suggested birth plans available online (maybe check babycenter.com for one)

but they are a good idea to do--especially for first time parents, as it will

prompt you to think about things that you may not even been aware will

happen.

good luck to both of you (when are you due?) any other questions, just ask

the list--we're a wealth of knowledge, if we say so ourselves. )

brigit

ps--kudos to you for being so involved and inquiring before the baby

arrives-way to go

October 5, 2000

In a message dated 10/5/00 10:59:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

adrienne@... writes:

<< A final bit of advice, find your pediatrician and discuss with him/her the

thoughts you are having on parenting *before* you have your baby. I choose

my pediatrician because he's a good " sick kid " doctor. Having been a sick

kid myself, I didn't realize a healthy kid doctor is different. I never

discussed with him my parenting until after nn was born. At 15

months, we are changing pediatricians because I'm sick of feeling like I'm

fighting my ped. There are some things I don't even discuss with him. I

think if I'd had a better pediatrician, I would have been aware of

vaccination concerns earlier and realized other things. Please keep this

in mind. >>

Excellent point!!! sooooo many new parents (myself included) do not really

search for a ped. before their kids come along!! very good idea!!!

brigit

October 5, 2000

I agree with . I think it's VERY importnant that people understand

this, because birth is a one-time event, and by the time you find out about

sensless, unsensitive hospital practises and procedures it is too late -

you're already there having your baby.

Parents-to-be need to know that the outcomes are better for midwife-attended

home births than for hospital births. And no-one is there to vaccinate your

newborn for a mainly sexually transmitted disease!

Lilian

>From: Levy <1levy1@...>

>Reply-Vaccinationsegroups

>Vaccinationsegroups

>Subject: Re: Avoiding Vac shots at birth

>Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 16:20:00 -0700

>

>teresav26@... wrote:

>

> > In a message dated 10/4/00 1:54:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> > 1levy1@... writes:

> >

> > >

> > > The only way to guarantee that unwanted procedures will not be

>performed on

> > > your

> > > baby (or wife) either during labour or after the birth is to not give

>birth

> > > in a

> > > hospital. Unless there are medical conditions that require a hospital

> > > birth,

> > > home is the only place to avoid unnecessary interventions.

> >

> > I had a hospital birth (twice) and never had any unecessary procedures

>on my

> > children. I think you're stating something as a fact too widely. Both of

>my

> > birts were peaceful, enmedicated, natural births with no disctractions

>or

> > interuptions at all.

>

>You were very lucky, and of course I was generalizing. However, I have

>attended

>a lot of hospital births at many different hospitals in my city, and an

>experience like yours is really the exception to the rule. The only way to

>have

>that kind of birth experience in a hospital ( at least in my community) is

>to

>have a midwife-attended hospital birth or to hire a doula (although that

>doesn't

>guarantee much - just makes things easier). Of course we are also

>fortunate in

>Ontario that we have regulated midwives whose services are funded by the

>government and who have hospital privileges - in other words, you can have

>a

>hospital birth and not even see a doctor or nurse during the birth. Even

>in our

> " birth centres " (which are all just rooms in the birthing unit or a

>seperate

>area, but still in the hospital - we don't have a free-standing birth

>centre

>thanks to Premier [for those Ontarians who don't know - the Toronto

>Birth

>Centre was all set to go - they had a location and everything else ready to

>go

>but cut the funding very shortly after being elected]) a woman is

>subject

>to the same interventions and hassles of staff coming and going as they

>please -

>they just look prettier than the other rooms, and maybe have a prvate bath

>or

>jacuzzi. I know from reading a lot about birth in North America that

>unnecessary

>interventions and unrespectful staff are pretty much the norm, and in fact

>the

>community standards in my area are much more progessive than some areas in

>the US

>or other parts of Canada (there are still many hospitals that insist on

>enemas

>and have central nurseries). I have also been to births where, even though

>they

>have rooming in, the women are told tat they can't take their baby out of a

>certain area of the hospital - this is insane - it is the woman's baby and

>she

>should be able to take her wherever she wants! Thus my reason for

>generalizing.

>

> >

>

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October 5, 2000

At 05:33 PM 10/4/00 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 10/4/00 4:28:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

>1levy1@... writes:

>

> > ). I have also been to births where, even though they

> > have rooming in, the women are told tat they can't take their baby out of a

> > certain area of the hospital - this is insane - it is the woman's baby and

> > she

> > should be able to take her wherever she wants!

>

>I guess my hospital didn't care about this either. My husband took my

>son for a ride on an elevator shortly after birth and I think to the gift

>shop or something.

> My point with my first letter is you can have a good hospital birth. It

> just

>takes some questions. People can't expect to walk up to the first ob they

>find without asking questions and have the wonderful birth I had. It's

I have to agree that you need to find out about your hospital

specifically. In my town, there are hospitals that are known to have

certain policies (like cup feeding instead of bottle feeding if for some

reason this is deemed necessary -- and they really make sure it is

necessary first). You need to find out what your hospital's policies

are. I found my hospital for my first birth was more or less pretty good.

However, I had a horrible doctor. There were a lot of warning signs, but I

wasn't prepared to change. I had some information, but not enough to make

a change of doctors.

For my next birth, I'm making an informed decision to birth in a

hospital. The hospital I'll be in is working on becoming " baby

friendly. " I'm working with a CNM. There is no local birth center, which

I feel would be my best option. And there are certain tools you need to

have a homebirth, ie supportive DH, self-confidence, and good health to

start with. Not all people have these.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both homebirth and hospital birth

and birthing centers, just as there are advantages and disadvantages to

vaccinations. You need to do your research and find out about your

specific caregivers to find out what is best for you.

I suggest people who think only one is the best should read " Birthing From

Within, " specifically the section on Home Birth.

Adrienne

October 5, 2000

At 08:55 PM 10/4/00 -0400, you wrote:

>Hi . Thanks for your reply. This is my first baby & so I don't know

>about things like a birth plan. Nobody's mentioned it at my ob-gyn office. Is

>this birth plan something that is always done at some point during a doctor

>visit prior to the birth?

>

I know this was directed to someone else who did give somewhat of an

answer, but I wanted to give some extra information. A good place to start

on the internet for birth plans is

http://www.babycenter.com/birthandlabor/

They have a section called " Create Your Own Birth Plan " which gives a lot

of information and gives you a place to start.

I also suggest the following books " Birthing From Within " which doesn't

suggest a birth plan, but can give you good information and is a totally

different look at birth than any other book I've read (and I read a lot,

including Bradley). You can find information at

http://www.birthpower.com Also read, " The Vital Touch " by Heller,

Ph.D. I found a lot of ideas in that book that helped me confirm how I

felt about other aspects.

A final bit of advice, find your pediatrician and discuss with him/her the