Re: Spoiled ballots in West Palm Beach

November 10, 2000

They've thrown away that many ballots in other elections, though.

And people HAVE got to start taking some personal responsibility for not

asking for a different ballot while they were there voting when they realized

they messed up.

I hope people notice that Bush is not throwing a tantrum about the blatant

BRIBERY (caught on video) that took place in Wisconsin. (offering cigarettes

to homeless people for voting)

Sam

November 10, 2000

In a message dated 11/10/00 1:07:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,

adrienne@... writes:

<< I think Gore is being petty holding things up. >>

i don't think it's petty at all--regardles of who ends up the victor--if i

were involved in something as big as a run for the presidency, i'd be that

" petty " too!! i think it is also important, because it is showing how messed

up our voting and vote calculating system really is.

<<<<<but I got to see my ballot in 3 or 4 different locations long before

elections. I had plenty of time to talk to people to clear up confusion.

This is how it is everywhere. If people can't be bothered to find out how to

properly vote their ballot (which they can ask while voting), then why should

they have a say in who runs the

country? There's a certain stupidity and not caring attitude there.>>>>

sorry, but i disagree with you--it doesn't make people stupid because they

make an error voting--many people only vote every two or four years, so it's

not something they do often. also, the ballots should be uniform

everywhere, everytime. there should never be any differences that could

possibly cause sonfusion--do you want a president or senator elected because

people made a mistake??

i'm not saying i have the anwer to this ridiculous and unbelievable

situation, but i fon't think it's petty to want to get an accurate count for

something as important as running for president.

brigit

November 10, 2000

I don't know about the meds. But the ballot was confusing. More confusing

then the computer image they are showing on the news, the did show the

actual ballot and the holes did not match up. This is frustrating,

considering is was all approved before the election and posted in the paper.

Unfortunately my feeling is if it were the other way around Bush would of

conceded already. The election process is never perfect there are always

complaints, the democrats are whining at this point. Now they want a hand

recount please give me a break. I think the country will be surprised after

all the absentee ballots are counted bush will win popularity and electoral

college votes. What a cloud to come into though. Bummer. You can really see

how divided the country is with this election and it is sad.

November 10, 2000

I believe the strength of our democracy is in the fact that every single

voter counts. And that people have recourse if they believe their right to

vote has been impeded. If that ballot was illegal, and there is evidence it

was, people were illegally disenfranchised. Al Gore has a responsibility to

those who voted for him, a majority of voters in the country, and if people

were illegally disenfranchised, a majority in Florida. We should not be in

a hurry to declare a president if the wrong person may have been illegally

elected. There is time to get this right.

The Republicans keep talking about the rule of law. If the ballot was

illegal, I don't care who okayed it. Individuals don't have the right to

mistakenly or deliberately impede the rights of voters. Let the courts

decide.

When Nixon conceded in 1960 and didn't fight the votes in Chicago, there was

evidence that votes elsewhere for him would also be subject to scrutiny.

Also, it was not a question of possibly disenfranchised voters.

There have also been other times in history when the final naming of the

president was delayed and we survived.

Why would Bush want to be President with all these questions unanswered?

Does he want to be President, as McCain said, " in the worst way " ?

These are signs of a strong democracy at work. If Bush is the legitimate

President, I will support him. If he is elected under an unresolved cloud,

it will harm our country. Sandy

November 10, 2000

>These are signs of a strong democracy at work. If Bush is the legitimate

>President, I will support him. If he is elected under an unresolved cloud,

>it will harm our country. Sandy

What I find so interesting is that we aren't a democracy. We just think we

are. I don't recall the name of our government (someone else already

mentioned it). We elect people to represent us. The electoral college is

basically telling people we've already selected (usually the governor) how

we want them to vote for us.

How everyone has voted matters, but it doesn't. The real president won't

be selected until those in the electoral college cast their vote on Dec

18. Then, if people want to vote for someone other than who their state

has decided, they can. With how close this is, it is possible people will

do just that.

I think more states may decide to do as Nebraska and Maine, which allow

their electoral votes to be divided. People who want to switch to majority

rules also would not get anywhere because neither candidate has a majority

(over 50% of the votes).

As for the vote controversy, I think Gore is being petty holding things

up. When the absentee ballots come in, it is likely to give Bush an even

larger lead in Florida. There are also 4 states that were very close " too

close to call " . Bush could ask for a recount in all those states (3 of

which have been awarded to Gore), but he isn't because it just divides the

country further.

The ballot in Palm Beach was confusing, but I got to see my ballot in 3 or

4 different locations long before elections. I had plenty of time to talk

to people to clear up confusion. This is how it is everywhere. If people

can't be bothered to find out how to properly vote their ballot (which they

can ask while voting), then why should they have a say in who runs the

country? There's a certain stupidity and not caring attitude there.

As for the issues the NAACP have brought up, those issues are maybe a

federal issue, but I find it interesting that there weren't complaints

anywhere else in the country except in disputed Florida. That issue can be

cleared up and should be, without regard to this particular election. That

issue a different issue than who should be president.

Well, that's my rant.

Adrienne

November 10, 2000

I believe that among the allegations are that people did ask for new ballots

and were refused them (I have a friend who knows of at least one case). And

among the other issues, is the problem that if you didn't realize you'd

messed up, you wouldn't have asked. People walked out of there, having no

idea they'd screwed up. However, mere confusion is not enough to disqualify

a vote. Institutionalized confusion due to an illegal ballot may be.

If there is evidence of bribery in Wisconsin, that is wrong, and should be

pursued.

Maybe these issues coming up now, and dealt with appropriately, will result

in fairer elections in the future.

As to the idea that in 1996 there were almost as many ballots thrown out in

Palm Beach, according to some, there were not as many as reported, but it,

too, involved another form of the butterfly ballot. But the results of that

election were not material to the outcome, so it was ignored. Perhaps it

should not have been. Now, when it makes a difference, we are paying

attention.

All this points out to me, that it may only be in landslides that we can

trust the results of an election. Isn't it time for us to figure out how to

fix this?

Isn't a little inconvenience and trouble now worth fairer elections in the

future? Sandy

November 10, 2000

Florida has a long history of elections violations, including one that

resulted in the courts overturning a 1997 Miami mayoral election. Current

concerns need to be taken seriously.

As to the notion that our votes don't count, even the electors in the

electoral college's votes are supposed to be based on the will of the

people, just on a state by state basis. Whether or not that is a good idea

or not, can be debated. But it is still based on votes.

Clearly, one vote can make a difference. We just need to be sure all voters

are given a fair chance to express their vote.

Sandy

November 10, 2000

In a message dated 11-10-00 2:28:09 PM Central Standard Time,

lisa@... writes:

<< Florida had

similar problems previously. So, because they were stupid and never

fixed the problem before we should let THEM decide the election. Come

on..there must be a point where it stops and the votes needed to be

counted accordingly >>

,

WELL SAID!!!!!!!!!!!!! These are the SAME ballots that were used 8 years

ago... Sorry.. but that is a LONG enough time for them to remedy problems.

They threw out Well OVER 15,000 ballots last election because of double

punching... this is NOT a new problem. These folks were denyed NOTHING..

Now.. on the other hand.. were they smart enough to vote in the first place?

that to me is a good question.

Kim

November 10, 2000

><< I think Gore is being petty holding things up. >>

>

>i don't think it's petty at all--regardles of who ends up the victor--if i

>were involved in something as big as a run for the presidency, i'd be that

> " petty " too!! i think it is also important, because it is showing how messed

>up our voting and vote calculating system really is.

I do think the issue involved do need to be resolved. However, Gore gave a

concession phone call, and then called back to retract! I don't think

that's appropriate at all, even for something as big as the presidency,

especially for something as big as the presidency.

The other problem is that we don't know who's going to be president until

*all* the votes are counted, which includes absentees for all states, which

takes a couple weeks. So, why should the person be chosen on Tuesday night

when not all the votes are in anyway? I think that only makes people feel

like their vote is worthless. Basically, absentees are being told, " Hey,

we can make the decision without your votes. Their only a formality. "

This is where high technology and the media trip us up. In such a close

election, all votes should be counted. While the AP has assigned Oregon's

electoral vote to Gore, their method takes a few weeks to count votes. So,

that could be wrong anyway. Not that Oregon's electorals make a difference

in the long run here. Which is another thing. If every vote truly counts,

then why do I feel like mine was worthless? My state was a landslide for

Bush (61%). All our electorals are going for him. The democrats in this

state feel like there's no point in voting for the president because our

state has only voted for a democrat about 4 times ever.

Now we are waiting on the electorals in one state. So it makes the people

who live in that one state, their vote is counting more than anyone's in

any other state. At least that's the way it seems. That doesn't sound

like a people-choose. That sounds like this one state gets to choose.

><<<<<but I got to see my ballot in 3 or 4 different locations long before

>elections. I had plenty of time to talk to people to clear up confusion.

>This is how it is everywhere. If people can't be bothered to find out how to

>properly vote their ballot (which they can ask while voting), then why should

>they have a say in who runs the

>country? There's a certain stupidity and not caring attitude there.>>>>

>

>sorry, but i disagree with you--it doesn't make people stupid because they

>make an error voting--many people only vote every two or four years, so it's

>not something they do often. also, the ballots should be uniform

>everywhere, everytime. there should never be any differences that could

>possibly cause sonfusion--do you want a president or senator elected because

>people made a mistake??

>i'm not saying i have the anwer to this ridiculous and unbelievable

>situation, but i fon't think it's petty to want to get an accurate count for

>something as important as running for president.

>brigit

What makes them stupid is that they didn't bother to look at the ballot,

which was posted several places in advance and ask questions. Even while

you are in the booth, you can ask an election volunteer for clarification

of how this really works. If then you are shrugged off, then you have a

real complaint. But I haven't heard of anybody who actually asked for

help, just people who complained later.

And there is an idiot factor. Many people have suggested " better " and

" easier " ways to vote, but as I recently heard, " You can make something

idiot-resistant and not idiot-proof, they'll just come up with better

idiots. "

Plus, while that ballot was definitely confusing, there wasn't anything

illegal about it. Every party had a chance to look at it and approve

it. The democrat election commissioner of Palm Beach approved it. That

was her job. But she could have changed it if she thought it was

appropriate, that also is her job. So, there isn't any illegality to the

ballot itself. Not federally, only in specific states, and Florida is not

one of them.

Adrienne

November 10, 2000

Sam,

I saw this to...I couldn't believe that gore who loved falling all over

himself about how 'anti-tobacco' he was he then bribed the homeless.

Incredible!!!

SamHou1@... wrote:

>

> They've thrown away that many ballots in other elections, though.

> And people HAVE got to start taking some personal responsibility for not

> asking for a different ballot while they were there voting when they realized

> they messed up.

>

> I hope people notice that Bush is not throwing a tantrum about the blatant

> BRIBERY (caught on video) that took place in Wisconsin. (offering cigarettes

> to homeless people for voting)

> Sam

>

--

@...

***************************************************************

Any information obtained here is not to be construed as medical

OR legal advice. The decision to vaccinate and how you

implement that decision is yours and yours alone.

November 10, 2000

IF FLorida voters are so disenfranchised (I say this because they never

spoke up earlier when they got the sample ballots....now all of a sudden

they have a problem) then let EVERYONE revote not just one group that

knows they will essentially be deciding the President because they will

be so prejudiced.

Sandy Mintz wrote:

>

> I believe the strength of our democracy is in the fact that every single

> voter counts. And that people have recourse if they believe their right to

> vote has been impeded. If that ballot was illegal, and there is evidence it

> was, people were illegally disenfranchised. Al Gore has a responsibility to

> those who voted for him, a majority of voters in the country, and if people

> were illegally disenfranchised, a majority in Florida. We should not be in

> a hurry to declare a president if the wrong person may have been illegally

> elected. There is time to get this right.

>

> The Republicans keep talking about the rule of law. If the ballot was

> illegal, I don't care who okayed it. Individuals don't have the right to

> mistakenly or deliberately impede the rights of voters. Let the courts

> decide.

>

> When Nixon conceded in 1960 and didn't fight the votes in Chicago, there was

> evidence that votes elsewhere for him would also be subject to scrutiny.

> Also, it was not a question of possibly disenfranchised voters.

>

> There have also been other times in history when the final naming of the

> president was delayed and we survived.

>

> Why would Bush want to be President with all these questions unanswered?

> Does he want to be President, as McCain said, " in the worst way " ?

>

> These are signs of a strong democracy at work. If Bush is the legitimate

> President, I will support him. If he is elected under an unresolved cloud,

> it will harm our country. Sandy

>

--

@...

***************************************************************

Any information obtained here is not to be construed as medical

OR legal advice. The decision to vaccinate and how you

implement that decision is yours and yours alone.

November 10, 2000

I don't get it. Why should Gore have conceded when he didn't lose? It was

based on misinformation. Besides, he doesn't have the right to concede when

he has been elected. The people who voted for him wouldn't stand for it.

And his opponent shouldn't either.

And why does waiting for absentee votes make our votes worthless? Are

absentee votes only to count when they don't count?

Sandy

November 10, 2000

It's a little presumptuous to assume that Gore was involved in the alleged

bribery with cigarettes. If he was, he should be held accountable. I have

seen nothing that has tied him to this event, however.

Sandy

November 10, 2000

The ballot the Florida voters saw before the election was not the same as

the one they saw in the voting booth.

Here in Alaska, Public Health had public notices about requiring five new

vaccines, which hardly anyone responded to, many because they didn't realize

they were happening. They viewed that as evidence that there was little

disagreement with their mandate.

Just because the ballot was published, didn't mean people realized what was

going on. If a mistake was made, but no one realized it, does that make it

right? If someone claims to have been wronged, do we do nothing, or do we

listen to him.

Do we act like the doctors and politicians who say we are stupid parents who

don't know what is happening to our children, or do we hope to be listened

to? Do we hope to get others, who have not experienced what we have

experienced to listen to us?

I don't understand why so many people are unsympathetic with the

disenfranchised voters. Here we are, feeling we are disenfranchised, that

our voices are not being heard, but so many here don't seem to care about

others in a similar situation.

Let's get the facts, and not prejudge.

Sandy

November 10, 2000

Sandy....

NBC showed film footage of the campaign workers going in vans to the

homeless people and it SHOWED them handing out the cigarettes. IF you

have worked on a campaign the workers don't just do things without being

told to do it. Also, my parents and sister in two other states saw the

same thing independent of me watching it. Now, if they did not do it

then gore would have had a fit but he did not.

Sandy Mintz wrote:

>

> It's a little presumptuous to assume that Gore was involved in the alleged

> bribery with cigarettes. If he was, he should be held accountable. I have

> seen nothing that has tied him to this event, however.

>

> Sandy

>

--

@...

***************************************************************

Any information obtained here is not to be construed as medical

OR legal advice. The decision to vaccinate and how you

implement that decision is yours and yours alone.

November 10, 2000

i think if they have the revote in volusia and palm beach counties, gore

will pull through, the 20,000 they disqualified for double punching will

push him ahead. even Buchanan came out and said 20,000 was too many votes

for him for pb county

granted, the absentee might make this a moot point, but Buchanan and nader

came out and said those votes couldn't be for them

azx

RE: Spoiled ballots in West Palm Beach