Re: Germany/Cancer treatments

[Guest guest]

Dear Suzanne et al,

I was treated in Germany in 2001/2 with chlorambucil and then with

Bendamustine (aka, Treanda in U.S.A.)

at University Klinik, Duesseldorf.

I had " remission " lasting until 1/2005.

I never heard about mistletoe therapy although there are many private

clinics in Germany that offer " alternative "

or " natural " healing treatments, as can be found in Switzerland or

Mexico for instance....

Fred Cantor (NYC)

male 64, dx 1/98 CLL, remission ending 1/2005, W & W, current WBC 37k,

HGb 12.5, platelets 160.

________________________________________________________________________

____

On Aug 14, 2008, at 12:00 PM, Suzanne Dolson wrote:

> I have been hearing more and more lately of people going to Germany

> for treatment of many types of cancers.  So my mother and I did a

> little online research to find out what all the buzz was about.  We

> came across a recent report that states:

>  

>   " Cures for cancer are available but are being systematically

> suppressed by the American Cancer Society, the National Cancer

> Institute, and the major oncology centers.  They have too much of an

> interest in the status quo "

>  

> My mother contacted a few of the German doctors listed in the report

> and the doctors that responded all said the same thing: People

> with CLL should be treated now rather than watching and waiting.  My

> mother (who is having a hard time with my having CLL) received an

> e-mail back from one of these doctors and below is his reply:

>  

>   Thank you for your e-mail. Your daughter has a Chronic Lymphocytic

> Leukemia. I think we can start a treatment against this cancer. I

> would not wait for start to get aggressive. It’s easier to get

> remission!

>

> We have in the Clinic Marinus a treatment for whole body. In case of

> Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia I will do no aggressive Chemotherapy but

> I will give a Chemotherapeutikum without side effects. This for three

> weeks, that means one day in the week your daughter take tablets and

> an the other days in the week make this therapy with a lot of

> immunmodulations hyperthermia and so on.

>

> I can offer you this treatment programm for three weeks here in the

> Clinic marinus. If you will come, tell me the day, if it possible you

> came to the airport in munich and bring you here.  Please send me all

> records that I can see this before.

>

>  

>

> You should know that this Dr knows absolutely nothing about me or saw

> any of my medical records.

>

>  

>

> The report that I read also states that " All the top doctors in

> Germany use mistletoe therapy to boost their patients' immune

> systems " .  It also names many American actors and actresses and even

> past presidents that went to Germany for " successful " treatment.  I

> know you can't believe everything you read but the report was very

> interesting.  I have no intentions of going to Germany for any kind of

> treatment.  I was just exploring all the options out there out of

> curiosity.

>

>  

>

> I am so skeptical of this kind of thing but yet curious if anyone else

> may have any input (good or bad) on this topic? 

>

>  

>

> German Cancer Breakthrough - Your Guide to Top German Alternative

> Clinics.

>

>  

>

> Thank you,

>

> Suzanne  

>

>  

>

>  

>  

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Sometimes an effective therapy (such as a bendamustine) is not

available in the states because the sponser has not sumbmitted a

controlled study to the FDA for review for marketing approval. But

in cases like this such agents are known by US researchers based on

earlier-phase studies.

Regarding " cures " being suppressed by groups in the US, that really

doesn't hold up when you consider that scientists, oncologists,

regulators ... get cancers, as do their loved ones. And holding back

a cure would require their complicity.

The conspiracy theory is typically just a way to explain why a

dubious pseudoscience idea has not been recognized by the scientific

commmunity... ie, it's a sales pitch by a charlatan dispensing false

hope for profit.

~ Karl

www.lymphomation.org

>

> I have been hearing more and more lately of people going to Germany

for treatment of many types of cancers.  So my mother and I did a

little online research to find out what all the buzz was about.  We

came across a recent report that states:

>  

>   " Cures for cancer are available but are being systematically

suppressed by the American Cancer Society, the National Cancer

Institute, and the major oncology centers.  They have too much of an

interest in the status quo "

>  

> My mother contacted a few of the German doctors listed in the

report and the doctors that responded all said the same thing: People

with CLL should be treated now rather than watching and waiting.  My

mother (who is having a hard time with my having CLL) received an e-

mail back from one of these doctors and below is his reply:

>  

>   Thank you for your e-mail. Your daughter has a Chronic

Lymphocytic Leukemia. I think we can start a treatment against this

cancer. I would not wait for start to get aggressive. It¢s easier to

get remission!

> We have in the Clinic Marinus a treatment for whole body. In case

of Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia I will do no aggressive Chemotherapy

but I will give a Chemotherapeutikum without side effects. This for

three weeks, that means one day in the week your daughter take

tablets and an the other days in the week make this therapy with a

lot of immunmodulations hyperthermia and so on.

> I can offer you this treatment programm for three weeks here in the

Clinic marinus. If you will come, tell me the day, if it possible you

came to the airport in munich and bring you here.  Please send me all

records that I can see this before.

>  

> You should know that this Dr knows absolutely nothing about me or

saw any of my medical records.

>  

> The report that I read also states that " All the top doctors in

Germany use mistletoe therapy to boost their patients' immune

systems " .  It also names many American actors and actresses and even

past presidents that went to Germany for " successful " treatment.  I

know you can't believe everything you read but the report was very

interesting.  I have no intentions of going to Germany for any kind

of treatment.  I was just exploring all the options out there out of

curiosity.

>  

> I am so skeptical of this kind of thing but yet curious if anyone

else may have any input (good or bad) on this topic? 

>  

> German Cancer Breakthrough - Your Guide to Top German Alternative

Clinics.

>  

> Thank you,

> Suzanne  

>  

>  

>  

>

[Guest guest]

Folks - If you'll excuse me, I have a strong opinion about Germany, based on a number of inputs.

1. They do indeed, for many types of cancers, offer treatments that are more advanced than the treatments offered here.

2. I am not sure whether this is true for hematological cancers.

3. There are some "quack" clinics in Germany, one needs to be very careful. I don't know how you all feel about Mexico, but almost every Mexican clinic was opened by a German operation. I'm not saying anything, I'm just saying "be careful".

4. A good friend, with bad lung cancer, recently considered Germany. She was told by people who had been at this particular clinic that they were helped. She was ready to go, but got too sick. I, personal opinion!!, reviewed the clinic and I thought it was a quack job. It was in the middle of nowhere, run by one doc and his associate, etc.

5. On the other hand, I know someone with liver cancer, given up for lost, but treated in Germany with lasers and got a couple of years.

Bottom line, the Germans are very advanced, not nearly as hampered by an FDA as we are, but that has led to a lot of shady money making operations.

Just watch your step......

Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.

[Guest guest]

Suzanne,

The response you got from this clinic or doctor doesn't sound appropriate for CLL. I know of people with breast cancer who would be dead by now if it weren't for (1) luck (2) the financial where-with-all to be treated in Germany. She was referred by a local hem/onc to a reputable center.

Some of the best research used to come out of Germany for CLL. I'm not sure that's the case these days. We are probably all routing for the Australians at the moment, fully knowing they may not be successful.

AnnLooking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.

[Guest guest]

Thank you All for your replies. They are all very interesting and informative.

I hope to hear more opinions/personal experience on the issue.

Regards,

Suzanne

From: Sam87107@... <Sam87107@...>Subject: Re: Germany/Cancer treatments Date: Thursday, August 14, 2008, 11:02 PM

Suzanne,

The response you got from this clinic or doctor doesn't sound appropriate for CLL. I know of people with breast cancer who would be dead by now if it weren't for (1) luck (2) the financial where-with-all to be treated in Germany. She was referred by a local hem/onc to a reputable center.

Some of the best research used to come out of Germany for CLL. I'm not sure that's the case these days. We are probably all routing for the Australians at the moment, fully knowing they may not be successful.

Ann

Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.

[Guest guest]

> Regarding " cures " being suppressed by groups in the US, that really

> doesn't hold up when you consider that scientists, oncologists,

> regulators ... get cancers, as do their loved ones. And holding

back

> a cure would require their complicity.

Karl,

I'm sorry but I find that dismissal weak. To suggest that certain

protocols or substances ever reach a level where they are considered

seriously enough for a study that would " prove " a cure or the

effectiveness of a non-patentable substance is to suggest that every

possible treatment is considered equally by all scientists, all of

whom presumably have someone dying of cancer and care so much about

some " fringe " treatment that they would risk their reputation and

career on an unsellable treatment that *might* pan out in studies is

simply to suspend all logic on my part.

The funding process for a protocol has demands that must be met and

do not cave to the hearts of scientists, Im afraid.

I for one believe it cant be that hard to figure this stuff out.

Invention follows incentive. If alternative clinics did not work " at

all " the iron laws of capitalism would shut them down post haste.

Jane

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I agree that invention follows incentive, and that a promising

compound (no matter the source) would be fully explored once

identified.

I've heard the patent argument cited often as the reason natural

compounds are not developed - and believed it for quite a while. But

there are many examples of cancer drugs derived from plants, taxol,

vincristine and etoposide to name but three. And many other drugs

for other conditions.

Also, those in the field will tell you that the original compounds

often don't have the highest affinity to the target, and need to be

modified to improve activity or bioavailability, or decrease toxicity.

It does seem that patent protection is a challenge for natural

products development, but not an insurmountable obstacle as described

here:

" You cannot patent a natural compound as a structure (but you can

make the simplest semisynthetic analog - and if it was never

disclosed you can stake your claim on it). With a natural compound

you can patent its use, a process of isolation/manufacture, a

specific drug formulation, etc but it is obviously a much weaker

protection. " http://totallysynthetic.com/blog/?p=956

So I suspect that the so-called patent obstacle is a false argument

used to justify unproven alternative practices ... the reason this

and that natural " cure " is not FDA approved and never will be.

That's not to say nature doesn't provide many useful compounds of

course, but I think we should take such arguments in defense of

alternative practices with a grain of salt, particularly when doses

and blood levels are not even accounted for in the promotions.

On this, Kroll, PhD, (cancer pharmacologist) writes:

I would pay very close attention to the final statement by

Kaufmann from Mayo Clinic - is a MD/PhD who treats cancer

patients and has his own basic science laboratory. Many, many

compounds kill all kinds of cancer cells in flasks (i.e., cell

culture) yet few people (and medical writers) consider that the

concentrations of drug required to do so are either unable to be

achieved in patients and/or are so high as to be even more toxic than

conventional chemotherapy. "

All the best,

~ Karl

>

> > Regarding " cures " being suppressed by groups in the US, that

really

> > doesn't hold up when you consider that scientists, oncologists,

> > regulators ... get cancers, as do their loved ones. And holding

> back

> > a cure would require their complicity.

>

>

> Karl,

>

> I'm sorry but I find that dismissal weak. To suggest that certain

> protocols or substances ever reach a level where they are

considered

> seriously enough for a study that would " prove " a cure or the

> effectiveness of a non-patentable substance is to suggest that

every

> possible treatment is considered equally by all scientists, all of

> whom presumably have someone dying of cancer and care so much about

> some " fringe " treatment that they would risk their reputation and

> career on an unsellable treatment that *might* pan out in studies

is

> simply to suspend all logic on my part.

>

> The funding process for a protocol has demands that must be met and

> do not cave to the hearts of scientists, Im afraid.

>

> I for one believe it cant be that hard to figure this stuff out.

> Invention follows incentive. If alternative clinics did not

work " at

> all " the iron laws of capitalism would shut them down post haste.

>

> Jane

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jane, Just want to add that I think you are on to something

regarding " iron laws of capitalism. " Big Pharma for all that it's

done to develope some remarkable therapies does not seem happy to

imbrace individualized medicine ... which seems now to be possible

with microarray and other technologies. It wants to develop the

blockbuster drug; prefers the one-size-fits-all as a business

model .. because it's profitable. But if cancers are indeed

heterogenous, even within diagnostic types, an individualized

approach (being able to prescribe the right drug at the right dose to

the right patients ... at the right time) is essential to solving the

problems of cancers.

Regarding alt med clinics, a physician could be arrested here in the

US for promoting or administering unproven cancer therapies, and I

think that's why so many clinics of that type set up shop in other

countries. Copying remarks from Dr. Woodcock, who explains why

evidence of benefit is required, much better than I could.

From a conversation with Dr. Woodcock, FDA:

Q. What is there to lose by giving people with life-threatening

diseases like AIDS and terminal cancer access to whatever drugs they

want?

A. If we didn't test drugs--if people could take whatever drug they

wanted without any testing--there would be no way to tell whether any

of the thousands, millions, of candidate drugs out there worked. So

no one would ultimately benefit.

For people with life-threatening illnesses, even the patient groups

don't agree on where the right balance is between identifying

treatments that will really improve patients' health and allowing

people to have immediate access to experiment with drugs that might

work for them.

I think AIDS is a good example. We had a lot of discussions with the

AIDS activists early on about access to treatments. The FDA put

together many programs to allow people early access to those drugs

even before they were approved.

But at the same time, companies pursued testing to see whether these

agents worked. Ultimately, some drugs were dropped because they

didn't work or because they were so toxic that the risks outweighed

the benefits. Ultimately, good drugs were found and then approved by

the CDER.

Now we're decreasing mortality with HIV. So every person with HIV has

a path of drugs to take that he or she knows will work to improve

health and has been proven to do so. If we'd gone down the other

path, and everyone had been able to try anything with no testing,

we'd still be at the same point

so much later into the epidemic: Everyone would have total

availability to all drugs, but we wouldn't know what worked.

Some of the AIDS activists have actually told us they want more

rigorous testing because, as they study their disease and the

treatments, they realize they need information to make choices about

which drugs they should take, even among the approved drugs. They

want the CDER to mandate a greater

number of big trials that would include combination therapy. " What if

I start this combination early, versus if I take this single drug

first? Which would help me to be in better health 10 years from now? "

Those are the kinds of questions they want answered, and you can't

answer those questions unless

you do scientific testing.

>From a conversation with Dr. Woodcock, FDA

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/special/testtubetopatient/woodcock.html

>

> > Regarding " cures " being suppressed by groups in the US, that

really

> > doesn't hold up when you consider that scientists, oncologists,

> > regulators ... get cancers, as do their loved ones. And holding

> back

> > a cure would require their complicity.

>

>

> Karl,

>

> I'm sorry but I find that dismissal weak. To suggest that certain

> protocols or substances ever reach a level where they are

considered

> seriously enough for a study that would " prove " a cure or the

> effectiveness of a non-patentable substance is to suggest that

every

> possible treatment is considered equally by all scientists, all of

> whom presumably have someone dying of cancer and care so much about

> some " fringe " treatment that they would risk their reputation and

> career on an unsellable treatment that *might* pan out in studies

is

> simply to suspend all logic on my part.

>

> The funding process for a protocol has demands that must be met and

> do not cave to the hearts of scientists, Im afraid.

>

> I for one believe it cant be that hard to figure this stuff out.

> Invention follows incentive. If alternative clinics did not

work " at

> all " the iron laws of capitalism would shut them down post haste.

>

> Jane

>

[Guest guest]

On Aug 16, 2008, at 7:15 PM, Jane Rowland wrote:

I for one believe it cant be that hard to figure this stuff out.

Invention follows incentive. If alternative clinics did not work " at

all " the iron laws of capitalism would shut them down post haste.

Jane

_____________________________________________________________

Dear Jane et al....

strictly speaking, Germany, Switzerland (european countries in general)

are not

capitalist systems; rather a kind of capitalist-socialist system, with

differing

" incentives " & constraints & latitudes than found in USA.

I am no expert on this, but people generally travel as

" medical-tourists " to get treatments either not found in their homeland,

or for reason of expenditure (to India or Mexico, for instance).

I received a " standard " treatment protocol at a University Klinik in

Germany;

I am not personally familiar with any specific medical spas offering

alternative " natural healing " treatments.

Fred Cantor (NYC)

dx 1/98, Bendamustine 2002; remission ending 1/2005; currently WBC 36k,

w & w.

[Guest guest]

--In Germany there is a type of therapist called " Heilpraktiker "

who, with all the benefits of the law, practices naturopathic

medicine. They are not allowed by law to prescribe antibiotics,

steroids, hormones, chemio ....but they treat cancer patients.

This is a website of a Heilpraktiker:

www.alix-naturheilzentrum.de

Also, for getting info about cancer treatment in germany, you can

contact

" Menschen gegen Krebs "

www.krebstherapien.de

mgk@...

karla

In , Fredrich Cantor <f.cantor@...> wrote:

>

>

> On Aug 16, 2008, at 7:15 PM, Jane Rowland wrote:

>

> I for one believe it cant be that hard to figure this stuff out.

> Invention follows incentive. If alternative clinics did not

work " at

> all " the iron laws of capitalism would shut them down post haste.

>

> Jane

> _____________________________________________________________

>

> Dear Jane et al....

> strictly speaking, Germany, Switzerland (european countries in

general)

> are not

> capitalist systems; rather a kind of capitalist-socialist system,

with

> differing

> " incentives " & constraints & latitudes than found in USA.

> I am no expert on this, but people generally travel as

> " medical-tourists " to get treatments either not found in their

homeland,

> or for reason of expenditure (to India or Mexico, for instance).

>

> I received a " standard " treatment protocol at a University Klinik

in

> Germany;

> I am not personally familiar with any specific medical spas offering

> alternative " natural healing " treatments.

>

> Fred Cantor (NYC)

> dx 1/98, Bendamustine 2002; remission ending 1/2005; currently WBC

36k,

> w & w.

>