Re: Parents vs. Schools and Teachers

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/22/00 8:44:37 AM Central Daylight Time,

eudora@... writes:

HI Jena

Welcome back lol and where the heck have you been lolololol You know when we

vent it is with valid reason. First we have no one else to vent to, 2nd we

are looking for ideas on how to deal with a situation. Sara has had some

GREAT teachers, this year we started with one that previous teaching

experience was multi-handicap. She resigned after 4 weeks of teaching at

Sara's school. She admitted teaching academics to Sara and a few others was

way over her head. I have to commend her that she knew when to say good-by.

Sara teacher now (sped) doesn't even have a Sped degree, I couldn't care less

because in two longgggggg lol weeks she has Sara working hard....no more task

problems She is young, fresh and can talk like Brittany Spears, so Sara is

set

I really don't think was slamming all teachers but helping us who

have problems. We too get tired of being the bad guy. I missed a Curriculum

meeting last night for the sake of Sara's Reg Ed teacher. And my sanity lol

As far as kids NDA meeting states academic standards, well Sara is included

in this too this year her number will count so they better teach her

something and I know they will. My venting has been about my sweeties

behavior. The school delayed a bit to much but Im sure one day we will get

this all of this ironed out they are trying.

Inclusion is possible with a one on one assistant (Heehee I don't like the

word aide When my son was in football he did have one on one instruction,

now if he had played college ball no he wouldn't have had it soooo my point

is individual instruction is needed in all walks of lives sorry only

example I could think of this morning lolol All kids can be included in a reg

classroom, maybe this teacher friend of yours is not providing the right

supports for this child, something to think about again probably an over

sight from the administrators

We have no jobs here for sped teachers coming out of college, all want our

district, so many just wait or home teach.

As far as visiting sped classrooms.....been there done that Heehee it wasn't

the teaching ability but the range of disabilities that would be role models

for my daughter. We had a teacher here who went to bat for her kids when the

AC went out. She publicly put her job in jeopardy for her kids. Read the

archives and you'll know which post that was about heehee

I really wish you wouldn't leave but give us all insight on how to deal with

the " bad " teachers I cant believe that you will agree with all

administration decisions that are made. I have not heard of a district who's

administrators care about our kids, hmmm maybe why no states are in

compliance.

I didn't mean to pick apart your post but I did want to address your

issues

Please rethink leaving and please bear with us, some of us are struggling

with situations.

Kathy mom to Sara 8

> I have been a special ed teacher for 26 years and I am not stupid and I do

> care about students. Since being on this list I have been flamed for giving

> dissenting opinions or making suggestions that some found different from

> their own ideas. This is my last post to the list. I am tired of day after

> day of the schools being portrayed as the enemy and teachers as dumb people

> who dislike your children.

>

> I joined this list at Granny's suggestion because she thought that I could

> offer help and advice, as well as professional expertise from my

> experiences. While many of you have welcomed my opinions and suggestions,

> others have been downright insulting about what I have had to say.

>

> Schools do the best they can. Teachers are not perfect. Your included child

> is not the only child in the classroom the teacher has to teach. Your child

> isn't part of the test scores the teacher must raise in today's testing

> mania and the other 25 kids are. There is a backlash gaining ground among

> parents and teachers because of the demands being made by parents of

special

> needs children. And some of this backlash is justified. I have a friend who

> teaches 8th grade English. A child with no language who makes frequent

> guttural noises and who is unable to function independently at any level is

> in her class. His loud noises interrupt her lectures. He has a 1:1 aide

with

> him but at no level participates in the class. Is this fair to the other

> students and what benefit is this to the child?

>

> Life doesn't include a 1:1 aide. Is this really inclusion if extraordinary

> means are required? Is the classroom of the future 15 NA kids and 10

> included students and their 1:1 aides? Should students be included fully in

> high school college prep programs and modifications made to accommodate

> them?

>

> I work hard every day to do the best for my students. Yet I read nothing

but

> negative comments about teachers here. I deal with unreasonable parents

> regularly. Last spring I called a student a jerk because he was acting like

> one and was soundly thrashed for it verbally. Only a couple of people were

> willing to see that maybe the child and parent were at fault, not the

> schools. The assumption here among some is that the fault is always the

> school and teachers.

>

> Last year, our district placed a student in a residential treatment

> placement because this was the best place for him. This was a huge

> expenditure for our little district. To pay for it, our special ed teacher

> materials allotment was cut from $750 to $400. When I came to the district

> 12 years ago it was $1000. Payment for services must come from somewhere.

>

> We have trouble getting special ed teachers. No one wants to be one because

> of the paper work and what is perceived of as the demands of parents and

the

> constant threat of law suits. If your child doesn't have a credentialed

> teacher and the teacher isn't that good, this might be the reason why.

We've

> lost several great teachers to regular ed because of the stress factor and

> probably now have only a few of the really good teachers left.

>

> Yes, there are bad teachers and bad districts. I see paper work every day

> that reflects this. I even work with a few. But the majority are dedicated,

> hard-working, caring professionals who go the extra 10 miles to help your

> child reach success. And the children of every other parent in the school.

>

> I've met many wonderful people on this list and have gotten some great

ideas

> and insights. However, right now, the negative comments about schools and

> teachers is too much for me, on top of the reality of my classroom and my

> school and my district. I wish those of you with negative views of the

> school would visit a special ed classroom or a regular classroom with

> included students (not your child's) and see what's going on. See what

> teachers are required to do besides teach. I think it would be an

eye-opener

> for many of you.

>

>

> Jena

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/22/00 8:44:37 AM Central Daylight Time,

eudora@... writes:

> See what

> teachers are required to do besides teach. I think it would be an

eye-opener

> for many of you.

>

>

> Jena

>

OOoh my gosh is this an eye opener, a HS teacher here has been arrested for

sexual touching students. Now I bet none of us will agree this is appropriate

and having him arrested WAS the right think to do. Well, if we have other bad

teachers being inappropriate with students in other ways shouldn't we call

them on the carpet too? or is only the felony's that we should be concerned

with????

food for thought

Kathy mom to Sara 8

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/22/00 9:45:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

eudora@... writes:

<< here is a backlash gaining ground among

parents and teachers because of the demands being made by parents of special

needs children. And some of this backlash is justified. I have a friend who

>>

Demands?? They are our rights.

<<<A child with no language who makes frequent

guttural noises and who is unable to function independently at any level is

in her class. His loud noises interrupt her lectures. He has a 1:1 aide with

him but at no level participates in the class. Is this fair to the other

students and what benefit is this to the child?>>

Fair to the other students? Is it fair that our children are left out by

peers just because they aren;t like the " perfect normal " children. Maybe if

more children like this one are put in reg ed it will produce a more

compassionate society that embraces and accepts others that are different. My

child does speak and read and comprehend. I cannot imagine what this childs

parents feel. Could be that these parents are in denial...sure but they have

rights.

<<<Last spring I called a student a jerk because he was acting like

one and was soundly thrashed for it verbally. Only a couple of people were

willing to see that maybe the child and parent were at fault, not the

schools.>>>

I' would have like to thrash you physically. Was this child handicapped.

Could he understand and control what he was doing? If not then who was the

jerk. If I hear that any teacher calls any of my children jerks they will

have one unhappy parent too. I don;t pay teacher's salaries( and VERY well in

my town) to insult my kids.You are teaching the other children to do it too.

<<No one wants to be one because

of the paper work and what is perceived of as the demands of parents and the

constant threat of law suits>>

Again rights. No one would have to sue if the LAW was followed and

implemented.

[Guest guest]

I realize, and I think everyone does, that there are many good dedicated

teachers in most of our schools. They are not the problem. There are also

many mediocre teachers in most of our schools. And probably a few bad ones.

You have pointed out many of the problems with inclusion. I have always had

some reservations about it. I think many children, including many DS

children belong in the regular classroom with help. A child who cannot

participate at all but only make guttural noises does not belong in that

classroom. Many districts have completely done away with special ed classes,

and I think that is wrong. But I think that there needed to be a great

improvement in spec ed classes, like teaching more academics, and not having

them completely isolated from regular students. A child who constantly

disrupts a class and makes it impossible for others to concentrate does not

belong there. But that child has a right to education too, a decent

education, and not to be shunted directly into a sheltered workshop when he

finishes.

I agree the other kids have rights too. There needs to be accomodation

for both sides. There needs to be understanding on both sides. It can be a

great experience for all if handled correctly. Not every child belongs in a

regular classroom but there needs to be something of quality for everyone.

I wouldn't last a week as a teacher, and I have great admiration for

those who do, year after year. I recently ran into an old acquaintance, and

when I asked if she was still teaching she said no. She was afraid she would

kill a couple kids and spend the rest of her life in jail. She's working as

a security guard, which seems a waste to me. I was never in her classroom

but in knowing her, I'm sure she was a great teacher. She taught special ed,

by the way.

I also know there is often too much rigidity. Everyone has to do things t

his way and that is not always right for every child. Children, all

children, learn in different ways. If there are too many children in a

classroom, the teacher cannot accomodate all of this, it is impossible. Many

of the behavior problems I read about on this list wouldn't happen if the

children really had the right situation. What that is I'm not sure at this

point but not all children can conform to certain standards, and that goes

for regular kids too.

I am sorry you feel you have been reviled on this list. I was being a

bit facetious in my comments, I thought everyone would realize that. It was

just a late night comment thrown in for consideration. And I do think it is

true in some cases, certainly not all.

Jessie, mother of , (almost normal who has an 18 yr-old-son of her own),

and age 35 who has DS. I've been through the mill too.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/22/00 11:06:45 AM Central Daylight Time, JB66111@...

writes:

<< But that child has a right to education too, a decent

education, and not to be shunted directly into a sheltered workshop when he

finishes. >>

YES! you say this so well Jessie. :-)

<<< I also know there is often too much rigidity. Everyone has to do things t

his way and that is not always right for every child. Children, all

children, learn in different ways. >>>>

my biggest complaint in this area is when the kids sitting in tears and

you're trying to show them a much simpler way (the way I was taught some math

in elementry school really is much more understandable, hehe) and they do

understand what you're telling them but you get this statement. We have to

do it this way. ARGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've discussed this with a few differnt teachers at times and they always

say no, if she can explain to show she understands what she's doing she can

do it your way. So bascially I've told them, do me a favor and TELL the kids

that IN CLASS. yes I'm shouting. hehehe. So if you run into this with any

of your children, check with the teacher and make sure if they say somthing

like the ones I encounted that you get them to understand they need to MAKE

that announcement to the class. Life was much more fun after these little

discussions where I pointed out what was going on and why. LOL

Joy

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/22/00 10:31:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

b4alltoday@... writes:

<< I have not heard of a district who's

administrators care about our kids, >>

Well, Kathy, hear it now! ;-) Our school superintendent was one of the many

who told us it is great having Sheila in the middle/highschool last night at

the back-to-school night. He has been very instrumental in pushing the

principals and on down to accept the fact that inclusion was here to stay in

our district. He has just announced that he will be retiring this coming

June--we are not really happy to hear that news. Perhaps your above statement

is a wee bit sweeping. ;-) Okay, so maybe it looks that way from where you

sit, but there are a few districts that do right by our children it comes

down from the top.

nancy

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/22/00 3:21:06 PM Central Daylight Time, NEHolroyd writes:

> << I have not heard of a district who's

> administrators care about our kids, >>

>

> Well, Kathy, hear it now! ;-) Our school superintendent was one of the

many

> who told us it is great having Sheila in the middle/highschool last night

at

> the back-to-school night. He has been very instrumental in pushing the

> principals and on down to accept the fact that inclusion was here to stay

in

> our district. He has just announced that he will be retiring this coming

June-

> -we are not really happy to hear that news. Perhaps your above statement is

a

> wee bit sweeping. ;-) Okay, so maybe it looks that way from where you sit,

> but there are a few districts that do right by our children it comes down

> from the top.

>

> nancy

Heehee and You said he's retiring lolololol Well I guess I based my statement

from this list (and others.....advocacy and inclusion lists) lol and the fact

that NO States are in compliance with the Law. I'd be glad to be wrong on

this point of view Heehee because in the near future we are looking to move.

It would be nice to move to an area that has a Great Chief in charge

Kathy mom to Sara 8

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/22/00 3:22:42 PM Central Daylight Time,

NEHolroyd@... writes:

> Okay, so maybe it looks that way from where you

> sit, but there are a few districts that do right by our children it comes

> down from the top.

>

> nancy

Ohhhhh I have a great idea thanks

said I could do the next poll, well I was going to do it dual

diagnoses...medical but I'm fickle lolol I think I'll do it on the

satisfaction of your child's education, are we unhappy from the top

(administrators, like Sped directors) all the way down to teachers. Give me a

few days and Ill get this out. Maybe for the young kids we could include Drs.

and EI professionals. What do you all think??

Kathy mom to Sara 8

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/22/00 4:29:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

b4alltoday@... writes:

<< Well I guess I based my statement

from this list (and others.....advocacy and inclusion lists) lol and the

fact

that NO States are in compliance with the Law. >>

It's important to remember that just because no state is in compliance it

doesn't mean that some individual districts are out of compliance. We have

quite a few individual districts around our area which are doing fair to

great jobs including kids, but then we had one district taken to court 7-8

years ago and it has made believers of many of the local districts. ;-) That

one district kept losing and shelling out more money for legal fees cause

they kept taking it up another level where they would lose yet again. They

finally gave up and did what they should have done right from the start. They

are now one of the better districts, but it really had a ripple effect.

nancy

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 09/22/2000 1:32:47 PM US Mountain Standard Time,

b4alltoday@... writes:

<< are we unhappy from the top

(administrators, like Sped directors) all the way down to teachers. >>

Hmmmm, and where would the school board fit into this? They MUST be included

in my case!!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/22/00 4:32:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

b4alltoday@... writes:

<< Maybe for the young kids we could include Drs.

and EI professionals. >>

IMHO, leave this for other polls.

nancy

[Guest guest]

Jena,

I am sorry that you took offense at the emails.. aka " Venting " of our online

support group. I don't feel that any of us are deliberately teacher bashing,

but it is important for us all to remember that this IS a support for families

of children with ds. Therfore, most of what is discussed are issues that

we, as parents, are dealing with on a day to day, day after day, year after

year basis. It gets old. If you, as a teacher, are on this list, then you

need to accept and respect our right to support each other in this manner.

Just as we would accept your complaints about parents if we were to join a

teacher's support list. For many of us, this is the only chance we get to

talk about issues that we are dealing with with others who are also dealing

with or have dealt with the same thing.

I read good things about teachers AND aides on this list. Often. But the

fact is that when something is troubling us and needs to get fixed, we need

to talk about it and this IS a safe place for us to vent, discuss, and

problem solve.

I know that there are wonderful teachers in all categorys out there.

Inclusion is a hard situation for all. Teachers and parents need to work as

a team, and that doesn't always happen. I don't want a teacher to make the

judgement that they feel my child will never go to college so doesn't need

college prep courses. And I don't want teachers making it difficult for me

to get what is my child's RIGHT to an education in the least restrictive

environment. (No matter HOW good a teacher they are.) And I WILL push these

issues as long as I feel it benefits my son. I am also very careful to make

sure that there are support services in place so most of the time whatever

classroom my son is in has extra staff in there and the teachers have the

support in their work.

Yet I still meet with roadblocks in the most ridiculous areas!! I need to

share that with other parents who understand as my family and friends of

typical children can't. And I need to hear the feedback from other parents

that, " Yes, you did the right thing " , or " I had the same problem and this is

what I did... " , or even just, " Oh I totally understand how you FEEL! " I love

that we are able to share ourselves here without censure and we are able to

let loose and droop our heads that we so need to hold high in our communities.

I feel you do have alot to share with us on this list, just as we have a lot

to share with you. If you do decide to leave the list, I think you would be

missing a golden opportunity to let us teach you and to teach us. But before

that can happen you need respect that we are parents and come to this list as

parents and will share with this list as parents. I will put my " nice " mask

on when I go to school, conferences, inclusion meetings, and IEP's, but on

this list I will just be another parent dealing with the fears, stuggles and

joys of having a sp needs child and preparing him for his future.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/22/2000 1:32:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

b4alltoday@... writes:

<< What do you all think??

Kathy mom to Sara 8

>>

I think some people are so sssssllllllloooooow. I remember you mentioning

trying to make up a poll a couple of weeks ago. :-) J/k heheh

seriously....sounds ok.

joy

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/22/2000 9:45:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

eudora@... writes:

<< This is my last post to the list. I am tired of day after

day of the schools being portrayed as the enemy and teachers as dumb people

who dislike your children.

I joined this list at Granny's suggestion because she thought that I could

offer help and advice, as well as professional expertise from my

experiences. While many of you have welcomed my opinions and suggestions,

others have been downright insulting about what I have had to say.

>>

Whoa!!! Let me share something with you. As you know I am a social worker

with experience in CPS, Care, Prevention and Adoption. Part of my job

responsiblities now is to search for birth family members. I will lurk on

different lists and forums from time to time. There is a huge amount of

social worker bashing that goes on. I have written to people privately to

offer help...but I would never, never post publically and defend social

workers and start a flame war. First of all, the forums and lists where I

lurk are for those effected by social services. That does not include me,

even though I may be a team member in developing plans. People most affected

need a place to vent....a safe place without a social worker getting angry at

their posts.

There is a parallel here. We have parents who need to vent about teachers

and schools. I don't think I have written a negative thing about 's

teachers or the school in the past few years (bits and pieces on ST though).

But I can tell you something, 's first teacher (he was 2 weeks old)

was STUPID! So was most of the staff. For two years we had to deal with

incompetent people who were suppose to be the professionals. I was told that

the agency policy over-rode " My " federal laws. Now that is a stupid

statement. I had the E/I supervisor tell me that a the former manager's (who

had a baby with DS after I had ) baby was not bad off because she

didn't stick her tongue out. At that time in my life, I was very sensitive

to the tongue thrusting. That HURT!! But she was stupid making that

statement and very ignorant. I would not want her teaching my son (I

recently found out she is now teaching sped at the school where he would have

attended if we didn't move).

So....my advice to any teachers is to let us vent. This is our place and

while we welcome teachers and other professionals, please respect US!! We

have alot of parents who are also educators and I understand that fine line

that they walk on. But when I go to lurk on search lists (and remember I am

the spouse of a step parent adoptee who searched and was reunited with his

father)...I am also a social worker.

Now about those lists where I lurk.....I have gained alot of insight on

peoples feelings and how I can do a better job..not to mention great search

tips. There are some really bad social workers who give those of us who do a

great job a bad name. The same can be said about teachers and schools. I

don't take what people write about social workers personally...my skin is

much too thick to let that bother me.

And to those parents who are educators...{{{{{{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}}}}}].....I

know the position you are in sometimes. I worked for the E/I agency that

served . I would never work in the MR/DD field again. It was hell

during that time but it made me a stronger person. 's last few months

were pretty good at the agency but I had to advocate like hell (and go to

state mediation). He was given the best teacher before we moved and he had

the best service coordinator in the world. If I had a magic wand, I would

wave it over 's school he attends now and all the staff that work with

him...clone all of it/them and share with all of those here on the list.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/22/00 4:00:59 PM Central Daylight Time,

JTesmer799@... writes:

> I think some people are so sssssllllllloooooow. I remember you mentioning

> trying to make up a poll a couple of weeks ago. :-) J/k heheh

>

> seriously....sounds ok.

>

> joy

Heehee OK OK I couldn't spell all of the illnesses I wanted included Heehee

this one would be more interesting anyway and really a topic at hand. We

should also poll after the school year is up too lolol maybe some of the

districts would clean up their acts by then

By the way Im working on it now so it should be done in a sec

Ill leave off EI professionals and Drs, sorry to the moms of young kids

We'll come up with one for you all soon, hmmm maybe Joy can do that one

heehee smartie pants lolololol

Kathy mom to Sara 8

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/22/2000 2:11:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

b4alltoday@... writes:

<<

Ill leave off EI professionals and Drs, sorry to the moms of young

kids

We'll come up with one for you all soon, hmmm maybe Joy can do that one

heehee smartie pants lolololol

Kathy mom to Sara 8

>>

Kathy can't you put up more then one poll at a time? just wondering??? so

why not put up the other one? or you going to make or Tina do it?

hehehe :-)

Joy

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/22/00 5:25:44 PM Central Daylight Time,

masmiles@... writes:

> Could it be that in the districts where the administration is fully

> supporting inclusion, the ENTIRE school is better prepared for inclusion?

Definitely and districts that are trying to save a buck fall short

on supports

Kathy mom to Sara 8....heehee been there done that.... teenage thing, Good

Luck

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/22/00 4:51:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Michdock@...

writes:

<< Hmmmm, and where would the school board fit into this? >>

At the time of our major turn around in our school district the president of

our school board was the director of our local sped preschool. She is pro

inclusion and was one of the first sped preschools to start an integrated

preschool program. Many of our school board members have been supportive of

inclusion and when they went to hire a principal for the elementary school

the interviewing team (including yours truly) was charged with finding

someone knowledgeable of inclusion.

nancy

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/22/00 5:05:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

c1ndysue1@... writes:

<< If I had a magic wand, I would

wave it over 's school he attends now and all the staff that work

with

him...clone all of it/them and share with all of those here on the list.

>>

,

This is exactly the way I feel. There are some good schools, teachers,

administers, and, yes, school boards out there which are doing a wonderful

job. The tough part with a school board is it is constantly changing. But

anyone of you so inclined can run for school baord and then you can make an

impact.

nancy

[Guest guest]

Our school board is much more supportive than our administration. I am

constantly following the chain of command up the ladder with issues but I

KNOW that once it gets to the school board there is no more game playing. I

had to fight to get Mav fully included but once they gave in they have been

totally supportive. More than I can say for the principal!!!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/22/00 6:26:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

masmiles@... writes:

<< Could it be that in the districts where the administration is fully

supporting inclusion, the ENTIRE school is better prepared for inclusion? In

that I mean, smaller class sizes, more ready to adapt curriculum, classroom

aides standard? >>

When our district got this started we did not have anyone particularly

informed about inclusion, except for a couple of the school board members.

But then the school board charged the interviewing team with finding a

candidate for principal with a sped degree and knowledge in inclusion. They

then wrote 10K into the budget for conferences on inclusion--this is after

years of no money for teachers to be sent to conferences. The 10K was

specific to inclusion info only. Our district is a small, no money, rural

district so this was a pretty major commitment on their part. Class sizes

range from 23-28 students depending on the number of children in the grade.

Sheila's is one of the bigger classes. Most of the time she has been in class

sizes fof 26-28 kids.

nancy

[Guest guest]

>>Okay, so maybe it looks that way from where you

sit, but there are a few districts that do right by our children it comes

down from the top.

Reluctantly I am jumping in...

Could it be that in the districts where the administration is fully supporting

inclusion, the ENTIRE school is better prepared for inclusion? In that I mean,

smaller class sizes, more ready to adapt curriculum, classroom aides standard?

Maybe our school district is unique in this, but one of the higher-ups in the

system used to be a special ed teacher, and really works with the parents and

teachers and staff to try to find the best solution to any problems that arise.

Does this make sense to anyone but me? I am trying to get this thought out with

4 girls nagging on me and while trying to work out a special curfew arrangement

for our 17 year old...Calgon, take me away!!!

[Guest guest]

Good for you , you said it very well for all of us.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/23/00 9:20:37 AM Central Daylight Time,

masmiles@... writes:

<<

We are a small, rural district as well...I believe there are about 100

students per grade. We try to keep our class sized about 18-24 kids, I

think. It seems to be working for us.

>>

Oh we're a small rural district to, class sizes under 50. usualy about 45.

classrooms have about 20 or so kids per class.

Joy

[Guest guest]

We are a small, rural district as well...I believe there are about 100

students per grade. We try to keep our class sized about 18-24 kids, I

think. It seems to be working for us.