Re: Toxemia and alternatives???? OT

February 24, 2000

In a message dated 2/24/2000 12:39:07 PM Central Standard Time,

MeggyEm@... writes:

<< My sister in law has been told that she has toxemia. She is in her 28th

week

of pregnancy. She is being told that she will not be able to breastfeed

this

baby, because she got toxemia with her last two children and due to the

toxemia, the children became very jaundiced and extremely ill because of

breastfeeding. I have never heard of such a thing.

I know that jaundice is common with hospital deliveries (which she will be

having). But, she has serious problem with anesthesia, so she has all of

her

children naturally.

Can anyone shed any light on this, or help with information on how to

alleviate this problem? >>

Jaundice may be common in hospital births -- but it's NOT normal.

Breastfeeding doesn't CAUSE jaundice. The liver is not working at full speed

when a baby is born, the inability of the liver to catch up causes jaundice.

Now, there can be several underlying factors, but, in hospital births I would

look to the vitamin k shot first. And, there are a few kinds of jaundice, as

well, depending on what the cause was (normal newborn jaundice will appear at

5-8 days old). On the contrary, babies who may be susceptible to jaundice

should be breastfed as soon as possible and as often as possible. Perhaps,

with her last 2 she was using a schedule, which is a no-no in my experience.

Sometimes kids eat a lot, some days not so much, but always, when they're

trying to up the supply per meal, they are attached for the duration. It's

best to feed them when they demand. Jaundice in newborns is the body's

inability to shed the bilirubin (most notable by ther merconium poops for 1-2

weeks). So, in short, whatever would stop the liver from performing it's job

would be the cause of the jaundice -- NOT BREASTMILK. As for alternatives to

toxemia, do a search on " holistic " and " toxemia " and see what you come up

with. I'm sure there's an herb out there somewhere that will help, probably

a dyuretic of some kind.

February 24, 2000

Breastfeeding is the best thing for jaundiced babies. Here's an interesting

article:

http://womenshealth.medscape.com/reuters/prof/2000/01/01.31/sc01310g.html

Check out that second paragraph. " When women breastfeed, the babies have

higher levels of bilirubin and are healthier. Babies with higher bilirubin

levels are more disease-resistant, " said Dr. Sylvain Dore of s Hopkins

School of Medicine, Baltimore, land. " Bilirubin also protects against

retinopathy in premature babies. "

More info that was just posted on a breastfeeding bulletin board:

I'm going to give you some information directly from LLL regarding " late

onset jaundice " . First I wanted to point out something about breastmilk vs.

formula and jaundice. As long as it's not a metabolic problem, such as

galactosemia, that's causing the jaundice, breastmilk is the BEST thing for

a baby as far as flushing out bilirubin. The way bilirubin is flushed out is

through bowel movements. The more bowel movements a baby has, the more

bilirubin is going to escape. Breastmilk has a laxative effect, which is why

breastfed babies often poop at every feeding. Formula does not have this

effect, and a formula fed baby will poop LESS, therefore will excrete LESS

bilirubin. This is stuff from the Breastfeeding Answer Book, La Leche

League's manual:

" If a baby is growing well and the mother's milk supply is adequate, the

doctor may want to do tests to rule out causes of pathological jaundice.

Breastfeedign can and should continue unless the jaundice is found to be

caused by a metabolic disease such as galactosemia. "

" Prolonged jaundice or elevated bilirubin will eventually clear on its own

without interrupting breastfeeding, although it may take up to three months

before the bilirubin levels drop to adult levels. If the moterh keeps

breastfeeding, the bilirubin will continue to be eliminated, more quickly in

some babies than in others. Some doctors recommend temporary weaning to

determine whether or not a factor in the mother's milk is causing the

jaundice, but this is neither beneficial nor necessary. In the healthy,

fullterm baby, bilirubin levels below 23-29 mg/dl (400-500 umol/L) have not

been associated with short- or long-term health effects (Newman and

Klebanoff 1993). "

HTH,

>From: MeggyEm@...

>Reply-Vaccinationsonelist

>Vaccinationsonelist, AVML@...,

>Vac_HomeopathicListonelist, NaturalChristianonelist

>Subject: Toxemia and alternatives???? OT

>Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:33:35 EST

>

>My sister in law has been told that she has toxemia. She is in her 28th

>week

>of pregnancy. She is being told that she will not be able to breastfeed

>this

>baby, because she got toxemia with her last two children and due to the

>toxemia, the children became very jaundiced and extremely ill because of

>breastfeeding. I have never heard of such a thing.

>I know that jaundice is common with hospital deliveries (which she will be

>having). But, she has serious problem with anesthesia, so she has all of

>her

>children naturally.

>Can anyone shed any light on this, or help with information on how to

>alleviate this problem? Also, is there any remedies/treatments that can be

>given during pregnancy to lessen toxemia? I have talked with her about

>dietary issues, but there are on a limited budget/state aid and are unable

>to

>afford too many " luxury " items.

>Please email to me as she does not have internet access.

>Thanks.

>Robin

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

February 24, 2000

In a message dated 2/24/00 1:39:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, MeggyEm@...

writes:

<< My sister in law has been told that she has toxemia. She is in her 28th

week

of pregnancy. She is being told that she will not be able to breastfeed

this

baby, because she got toxemia with her last two children and due to the

toxemia, the children became very jaundiced and extremely ill because of

breastfeeding. >>

I just checked with my brother in law, he is a nurse anesthetist. He said

that he has heard that toxemia in the mother may cause jaundice in the baby,

but that is no reason not to breastfeed. He said that jaundice isn't hard to

control in infants, and that if the Dr continues to insist that she not

breastfeed, to ask him why- and get facts not just " well, it may... " . He

said the biggest worry may be that the mother may need magnesium sulfate to

control her BP, and that it is a powerful drug, so she would need to be

monitored. But even then she can still breastfeed. I know I had to have mag

sulfate while in labor because my BP was so high, and never once did anyone

hint that I shouldn't breastfeed, not that I would have listened. :-) Good

luck!!

~mesa

February 24, 2000

Hello,

I don't have any answers, but why don't you check with the ladies on the

breastfeeding board on Momsonline? There is also a pediatrician pro who

regularly answers questions. I bet he would have some great information for

you.

Go to www.momsonline.com

Good luck, I hope all works out!

Sandi

Toxemia and alternatives???? OT

> From: MeggyEm@...

>

> My sister in law has been told that she has toxemia. She is in her 28th

week

> of pregnancy. She is being told that she will not be able to breastfeed

this

> baby, because she got toxemia with her last two children and due to the

> toxemia, the children became very jaundiced and extremely ill because of

> breastfeeding. I have never heard of such a thing.

> I know that jaundice is common with hospital deliveries (which she will be

> having). But, she has serious problem with anesthesia, so she has all of

her

> children naturally.

> Can anyone shed any light on this, or help with information on how to

> alleviate this problem? Also, is there any remedies/treatments that can

be

> given during pregnancy to lessen toxemia? I have talked with her about

> dietary issues, but there are on a limited budget/state aid and are unable

to

> afford too many " luxury " items.

> Please email to me as she does not have internet access.

> Thanks.

> Robin

>

February 24, 2000

I would check with the lactation consultants on http://www.drpaula.com I have

been really impressed with both the quality (accuracy) of their responses and

their speed (less than 12 hours).

Toxemia and alternatives???? OT

From: MeggyEm@...

My sister in law has been told that she has toxemia. She is in her 28th week

of pregnancy. She is being told that she will not be able to breastfeed this

baby, because she got toxemia with her last two children and due to the

toxemia, the children became very jaundiced and extremely ill because of

breastfeeding. I have never heard of such a thing.

I know that jaundice is common with hospital deliveries (which she will be

having). But, she has serious problem with anesthesia, so she has all of her

children naturally.

Can anyone shed any light on this, or help with information on how to

alleviate this problem? Also, is there any remedies/treatments that can be

given during pregnancy to lessen toxemia? I have talked with her about

dietary issues, but there are on a limited budget/state aid and are unable to

afford too many " luxury " items.

Please email to me as she does not have internet access.

Thanks.

Robin

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 24, 2000

Robin,

One can't diagnose properly with the info you supplied. Nor am I even a

clinician qualified to give advice. But generally, tell her to become a

vegan; reduce caloric intake slightly and start juiceing. Maybe fast one

day a week. All drugs are out.

glk

On Thu, 24 Feb 2000 10:34:37 -0800 " Sandi Lenfestey "

<slenfest@...> writes:

>From: " Sandi Lenfestey " <slenfest@...>

>

>Hello,

>

>I don't have any answers, but why don't you check with the ladies on

>the

>breastfeeding board on Momsonline? There is also a pediatrician pro

>who

>regularly answers questions. I bet he would have some great

>information for

>you.

>

>Go to www.momsonline.com

>

>Good luck, I hope all works out!

>

>Sandi

>

> Toxemia and alternatives???? OT

>

>> From: MeggyEm@...

>>

>> My sister in law has been told that she has toxemia. She is in her

>28th

>week

>> of pregnancy. She is being told that she will not be able to

>breastfeed

>this

>> baby, because she got toxemia with her last two children and due to

>the

>> toxemia, the children became very jaundiced and extremely ill

>because of

>> breastfeeding. I have never heard of such a thing.

>> I know that jaundice is common with hospital deliveries (which she

>will be

>> having). But, she has serious problem with anesthesia, so she has

>all of

>her

>> children naturally.

>> Can anyone shed any light on this, or help with information on how

>to

>> alleviate this problem? Also, is there any remedies/treatments that

>can

>be

>> given during pregnancy to lessen toxemia? I have talked with her

>about

>> dietary issues, but there are on a limited budget/state aid and are

>unable

>to

>> afford too many " luxury " items.

>> Please email to me as she does not have internet access.

>> Thanks.

>> Robin

>>

>

February 25, 2000

Call Le Leche League. This is a bunch of bull. Tell her to eat loads of

protein which will mean a whole chicken a day, 100 + grams of protein a day.

Tell her to take dandeloin tincture which will help detoxify her liver.

She's GOT to stay on top of the protein though. It's a lot but it will help

pull her out of it or stop it. Look up toxemia on the internet and find any

info put out by Tom Brewer.

L Krasner wrote:

> From: L Krasner <gk-cfic@...>

>

> Robin,

> One can't diagnose properly with the info you supplied. Nor am I even a

> clinician qualified to give advice. But generally, tell her to become a

> vegan; reduce caloric intake slightly and start juiceing. Maybe fast one

> day a week. All drugs are out.

>

> glk

>

> On Thu, 24 Feb 2000 10:34:37 -0800 " Sandi Lenfestey "

> <slenfest@...> writes:

> >From: " Sandi Lenfestey " <slenfest@...>

> >

> >Hello,

> >

> >I don't have any answers, but why don't you check with the ladies on

> >the

> >breastfeeding board on Momsonline? There is also a pediatrician pro

> >who

> >regularly answers questions. I bet he would have some great

> >information for

> >you.

> >

> >Go to www.momsonline.com

> >

> >Good luck, I hope all works out!

> >

> >Sandi

> >

> > Toxemia and alternatives???? OT

> >

> >> From: MeggyEm@...

> >>

> >> My sister in law has been told that she has toxemia. She is in her

> >28th

> >week

> >> of pregnancy. She is being told that she will not be able to

> >breastfeed

> >this

> >> baby, because she got toxemia with her last two children and due to

> >the

> >> toxemia, the children became very jaundiced and extremely ill

> >because of

> >> breastfeeding. I have never heard of such a thing.

> >> I know that jaundice is common with hospital deliveries (which she

> >will be

> >> having). But, she has serious problem with anesthesia, so she has

> >all of

> >her

> >> children naturally.

> >> Can anyone shed any light on this, or help with information on how

> >to

> >> alleviate this problem? Also, is there any remedies/treatments that

> >can

> >be

> >> given during pregnancy to lessen toxemia? I have talked with her

> >about

> >> dietary issues, but there are on a limited budget/state aid and are

> >unable

> >to

> >> afford too many " luxury " items.

> >> Please email to me as she does not have internet access.

> >> Thanks.

> >> Robin

> >>

> >

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Make history and take part in the first online majority survey.

> Voice your opinions on american politics and the next president.

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> 1/1873/1/_/489317/_/951433110/

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 25, 2000

That's very dangerous advice, particularly if she is already toxemic. And

eating that high on the food chain will not reduce it no matter how much

dandeloin or other herbal crap she takes. There are plenty of studies

that shows that eating in excess of 25-30 grams of protein a day causes

decalcification of bone. Eating cooked protein causes more problems. Or

did you intend that she eat that whole chicken uncooked!! I would

recommend " Problems With Meat " by A. Scharffenberg, MD. Or a hundred

other books on the subject.

Yesterday there was a symposium of leading nutritionists who ganged up on

Dr Atkins for pushing this irresponsible high protein diet for 30

years without doing a single damn safety study to support it. We're

talking about a multimillionaire too.

Besides humans, are there other herbivores in the wild that make other

animals a regular part of their diet that I'm not aware of?!

gary

On Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:20:18 -0700 " Larsen, LM "

<midwife1@...> writes:

>From: " Larsen, LM " <midwife1@...>

>

>Call Le Leche League. This is a bunch of bull. Tell her to eat loads

>of

>protein which will mean a whole chicken a day, 100 + grams of protein

>a day.

>Tell her to take dandeloin tincture which will help detoxify her

>liver.

>She's GOT to stay on top of the protein though. It's a lot but it will

>help

>pull her out of it or stop it. Look up toxemia on the internet and

>find any

>info put out by Tom Brewer.

>

> L Krasner wrote:

>

>> From: L Krasner <gk-cfic@...>

>>

>> Robin,

>> One can't diagnose properly with the info you supplied. Nor am I

>even a

>> clinician qualified to give advice. But generally, tell her to

>become a

>> vegan; reduce caloric intake slightly and start juiceing. Maybe fast

>one

>> day a week. All drugs are out.

>>

>> glk

>>

>> On Thu, 24 Feb 2000 10:34:37 -0800 " Sandi Lenfestey "

>> <slenfest@...> writes:

>> >From: " Sandi Lenfestey " <slenfest@...>

>> >

>> >Hello,

>> >

>> >I don't have any answers, but why don't you check with the ladies

>on

>> >the

>> >breastfeeding board on Momsonline? There is also a pediatrician

>pro

>> >who

>> >regularly answers questions. I bet he would have some great

>> >information for

>> >you.

>> >

>> >Go to www.momsonline.com

>> >

>> >Good luck, I hope all works out!

>> >

>> >Sandi

>> >

>> > Toxemia and alternatives???? OT

>> >

>> >> From: MeggyEm@...

>> >>

>> >> My sister in law has been told that she has toxemia. She is in

>her

>> >28th

>> >week

>> >> of pregnancy. She is being told that she will not be able to

>> >breastfeed

>> >this

>> >> baby, because she got toxemia with her last two children and due

>to

>> >the

>> >> toxemia, the children became very jaundiced and extremely ill

>> >because of

>> >> breastfeeding. I have never heard of such a thing.

>> >> I know that jaundice is common with hospital deliveries (which

>she

>> >will be

>> >> having). But, she has serious problem with anesthesia, so she

>has

>> >all of

>> >her

>> >> children naturally.

>> >> Can anyone shed any light on this, or help with information on

>how

>> >to

>> >> alleviate this problem? Also, is there any remedies/treatments

>that

>> >can

>> >be

>> >> given during pregnancy to lessen toxemia? I have talked with her

>> >about

>> >> dietary issues, but there are on a limited budget/state aid and

>are

>> >unable

>> >to

>> >> afford too many " luxury " items.

>> >> Please email to me as she does not have internet access.

>> >> Thanks.

>> >> Robin

>> >>

>> >

>>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> Make history and take part in the first online majority survey.

>> Voice your opinions on american politics and the next president.

>> Have your say at

>> 1/1873/1/_/489317/_/951433110/

>>

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>

February 26, 2000

In a message dated 2/25/00 10:55:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,

gk-cfic@... writes:

>

> That's very dangerous advice, particularly if she is already toxemic. And

> eating that high on the food chain will not reduce it no matter how much

> dandeloin or other herbal crap she takes. There are plenty of studies

> that shows that eating in excess of 25-30 grams of protein a day causes

> decalcification of bone. Eating cooked protein causes more problems. Or

> did you intend that she eat that whole chicken uncooked!! I would

> recommend " Problems With Meat " by A. Scharffenberg, MD. Or a hundred

> other books on the subject.

I think she is more concerned with her toxemia than her bone density at this

point.

Cory

February 27, 2000

cmermer@... wrote:

> From: cmermer@...

>

> In a message dated 2/25/00 10:55:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> gk-cfic@... writes:

>

> >

> > That's very dangerous advice, particularly if she is already toxemic. And

> > eating that high on the food chain will not reduce it no matter how much

> > dandeloin or other herbal crap she takes. There are plenty of studies

> > that shows that eating in excess of 25-30 grams of protein a day causes

> > decalcification of bone. Eating cooked protein causes more problems. Or

> > did you intend that she eat that whole chicken uncooked!! I would

> > recommend " Problems With Meat " by A. Scharffenberg, MD. Or a hundred

> > other books on the subject.

>

> I think she is more concerned with her toxemia than her bone density at this

> point.

>

heheh this made me giggle. So true.

>

> Cory

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> The race is on! We've got the most comprehensive elections coverage

> for women. Get your election updates at

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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 27, 2000

On a un-pregnant person, I would agree but not when it comes to a pregnant

women. " General " rules apply to non pregnant people.

First off, I'd want to know if she's seizing? Is she toxic or pre-eclamptic?

I'd like to look at her blood work, blood

pressure, test her urine, swelling, and a whole slew of other clues. Is this

doctor jumping the gun just because that's how doctors operate these days due

to insurance companies being the rule makers or is this woman truly

compromised???

Call Dr. Tom Brewer who has helped many women pull out of a toxemic state. He

will take calls from what I understand free of charge.

http://www.midwifery2000.com/brewer.html

Yes, she has to eat the whole chicken, minus bones of course. Protein is the

key in PREGNANCY!! . Again, were not talking about a non pregnant women here,

like I said, the rules change in pregnancy. I would make sure her calories

and protein are adequate in light of the woman's stress and activity levels.

A diet which is not adequate in both protein and caloris leaves the mother

and baby severely compromised. Brewer (1983) has found that when a woman

eats one third fewer calories than she needs for her energy output, half of

the protein she eats will be burned for calories. This may leave a woman at

risk for an inadequately expanded blood volume even thourh she makes high

quality dietary choices. For an example, a 1500 calorie diet with 90 grams

of protein is 1/3 below the RDA, ( I know, don't get me started on the RDA

and what a bunch of crock that is but for the sake on an argument, work with

me here <grin>) figure of 2400 calories for PREGNANCY, and would only

provide 45 grams of protein available for building fetal tissues and blood

volume expansion.

See pregnant women have a normal blood volume expansion around 28 weeks, or

at least we want them to. This is an oddidity to non-pregnant people. My

point is that pregnancy does very different things to the body as you well

may know.

The different herbal " craps " will help her liver detoxify and supply her with

different minerals. I'd do tinctures for the cleansing and infusions for the

mineral benefits.

I would also have her lie on her left side for frequent rests throughout the

day. I would make them at least 2 hour rest with lots of fluid intake. A

gallon a day is not too much I would also have her NOT restrict her salt

intake.

Sources:

The Natural Pregnancy Book, Herbs, Nutrition, and other Holistic Choices by

Aviva Jill Romm

Understanding Diagnostic Tests in the Childbearing Year by Anne Frye,

Certified Professional Midwife, BA, Holistic Midwife

Nurse Midwifery by Helen Varney

And all my schooling and experiences as a midwife ~

L Krasner wrote:

> From: L Krasner <gk-cfic@...>

>

> That's very dangerous advice, particularly if she is already toxemic. And

> eating that high on the food chain will not reduce it no matter how much

> dandeloin or other herbal crap she takes. There are plenty of studies

> that shows that eating in excess of 25-30 grams of protein a day causes

> decalcification of bone. Eating cooked protein causes more problems. Or

> did you intend that she eat that whole chicken uncooked!! I would

> recommend " Problems With Meat " by A. Scharffenberg, MD. Or a hundred

> other books on the subject.

>

> Yesterday there was a symposium of leading nutritionists who ganged up on

> Dr Atkins for pushing this irresponsible high protein diet for 30

> years without doing a single damn safety study to support it. We're

> talking about a multimillionaire too.

>

> Besides humans, are there other herbivores in the wild that make other

> animals a regular part of their diet that I'm not aware of?!

>

> gary

>

> On Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:20:18 -0700 " Larsen, LM "

> <midwife1@...> writes:

> >From: " Larsen, LM " <midwife1@...>

> >

> >Call Le Leche League. This is a bunch of bull. Tell her to eat loads

> >of

> >protein which will mean a whole chicken a day, 100 + grams of protein

> >a day.

> >Tell her to take dandeloin tincture which will help detoxify her

> >liver.

> >She's GOT to stay on top of the protein though. It's a lot but it will

> >help

> >pull her out of it or stop it. Look up toxemia on the internet and

> >find any

> >info put out by Tom Brewer.

> >

> > L Krasner wrote:

> >

> >> From: L Krasner <gk-cfic@...>

> >>

> >> Robin,

> >> One can't diagnose properly with the info you supplied. Nor am I

> >even a

> >> clinician qualified to give advice. But generally, tell her to

> >become a

> >> vegan; reduce caloric intake slightly and start juiceing. Maybe fast

> >one

> >> day a week. All drugs are out.

> >>

> >> glk

> >>

> >> On Thu, 24 Feb 2000 10:34:37 -0800 " Sandi Lenfestey "

> >> <slenfest@...> writes:

> >> >From: " Sandi Lenfestey " <slenfest@...>

> >> >

> >> >Hello,

> >> >

> >> >I don't have any answers, but why don't you check with the ladies

> >on

> >> >the

> >> >breastfeeding board on Momsonline? There is also a pediatrician

> >pro

> >> >who

> >> >regularly answers questions. I bet he would have some great

> >> >information for

> >> >you.

> >> >

> >> >Go to www.momsonline.com

> >> >

> >> >Good luck, I hope all works out!

> >> >

> >> >Sandi

> >> >

> >> > Toxemia and alternatives???? OT

> >> >

> >> >> From: MeggyEm@...

> >> >>

> >> >> My sister in law has been told that she has toxemia. She is in

> >her

> >> >28th

> >> >week

> >> >> of pregnancy. She is being told that she will not be able to

> >> >breastfeed

> >> >this

> >> >> baby, because she got toxemia with her last two children and due

> >to

> >> >the

> >> >> toxemia, the children became very jaundiced and extremely ill

> >> >because of

> >> >> breastfeeding. I have never heard of such a thing.

> >> >> I know that jaundice is common with hospital deliveries (which

> >she

> >> >will be

> >> >> having). But, she has serious problem with anesthesia, so she

> >has

> >> >all of

> >> >her

> >> >> children naturally.

> >> >> Can anyone shed any light on this, or help with information on

> >how

> >> >to

> >> >> alleviate this problem? Also, is there any remedies/treatments

> >that

> >> >can

> >> >be

> >> >> given during pregnancy to lessen toxemia? I have talked with her

> >> >about

> >> >> dietary issues, but there are on a limited budget/state aid and

> >are

> >> >unable

> >> >to

> >> >> afford too many " luxury " items.

> >> >> Please email to me as she does not have internet access.

> >> >> Thanks.

> >> >> Robin

> >> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >> Make history and take part in the first online majority survey.

> >> Voice your opinions on american politics and the next president.

> >> Have your say at

> >> 1/1873/1/_/489317/_/951433110/

> >>

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >Get a FREE $10 gas card when you join carclub.com. As a member,

> >you can save up to $550 a year if you own a car, and thousands

> >more when you're buying one.

> >1/1940/1/_/489317/_/951502533/

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >

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February 27, 2000

You know more than me about pregnancy. I'm a generalist in this area.

Some people seem to handle concentrated protein diets better than others.

But anyone eating in excess of (I forget, but it's something like) 30

grams pays a price in the long term. We actually need amino acids, which

is far more easily obtained from a starch based diet. The reason for the

need to rack up so many calories on a hi protein diet is because the

energy required to digest protein is very high. Even real carnivores have

to spend 95 percent of the day sleeping off their last meal.

Something I noticed about nutrition advice is that meat eating

nutritionists say that meat is OK, and vegan nutritionists say that meat

is not OK. But most vegans are FORMER meat eaters. That adds to their

lack of bias, in a way. I would ask Brewer what other vegetarian animal

in the wild switches to a voracious meat eater only while she's pregnant?

And does she also cook the protein before consuming it?! Read about

Francis Pottenger's experiments with cats on cooked versus raw protein.

Cooked protein is even more hazardous for herbivores than it is for

carnivores.

Our bodies react AGAINST herbs, triggering catarrhal reactions. We

erroneously interpret the increased pulse, fever, sweating, urination, or

whatever the herb is supposed to do, as the cleansing effect. In reality,

it is the body reacting to something that has no business in the body.

The liver can detoxify itself. You just have to remove the obstacles (the

need to digest food) and additional burdens (herbs, drugs, etc).

I guess we're not going to agree, huh?

gary

On Sun, 27 Feb 2000 15:23:14 -0700 " Larsen, LM "

<midwife1@...> writes:

>

>--------------EA248CF6B94CC2E49977FBD0

>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>

>On a un-pregnant person, I would agree but not when it comes to a

>pregnant

>women. " General " rules apply to non pregnant people.

>

>First off, I'd want to know if she's seizing? Is she toxic or

>pre-eclamptic?

>I'd like to look at her blood work, blood

>pressure, test her urine, swelling, and a whole slew of other clues.

>Is this

>doctor jumping the gun just because that's how doctors operate these

>days due

>to insurance companies being the rule makers or is this woman truly

>compromised???

>

>Call Dr. Tom Brewer who has helped many women pull out of a toxemic

>state. He

>will take calls from what I understand free of charge.

>

>http://www.midwifery2000.com/brewer.html

>

>Yes, she has to eat the whole chicken, minus bones of course. Protein

>is the

>key in PREGNANCY!! . Again, were not talking about a non pregnant

>women here,

>like I said, the rules change in pregnancy. I would make sure her

>calories

>and protein are adequate in light of the woman's stress and activity

>levels.

>A diet which is not adequate in both protein and caloris leaves the

>mother

>and baby severely compromised. Brewer (1983) has found that when a

>woman

>eats one third fewer calories than she needs for her energy output,

>half of

>the protein she eats will be burned for calories. This may leave a

>woman at

>risk for an inadequately expanded blood volume even thourh she makes

>high

>quality dietary choices. For an example, a 1500 calorie diet with 90

>grams

>of protein is 1/3 below the RDA, ( I know, don't get me started on the

>RDA

>and what a bunch of crock that is but for the sake on an argument,

>work with

>me here <grin>) figure of 2400 calories for PREGNANCY, and would

>only

>provide 45 grams of protein available for building fetal tissues and

>blood

>volume expansion.

>

>See pregnant women have a normal blood volume expansion around 28

>weeks, or

>at least we want them to. This is an oddidity to non-pregnant people.

>My

>point is that pregnancy does very different things to the body as you

>well

>may know.

>

>The different herbal " craps " will help her liver detoxify and supply

>her with

>different minerals. I'd do tinctures for the cleansing and infusions

>for the

>mineral benefits.

>

>I would also have her lie on her left side for frequent rests

>throughout the

>day. I would make them at least 2 hour rest with lots of fluid intake.

>A

>gallon a day is not too much I would also have her NOT restrict her

>salt

>intake.

>

>Sources:

>The Natural Pregnancy Book, Herbs, Nutrition, and other Holistic

>Choices by

>Aviva Jill Romm

>Understanding Diagnostic Tests in the Childbearing Year by Anne Frye,

>Certified Professional Midwife, BA, Holistic Midwife

>Nurse Midwifery by Helen Varney

>And all my schooling and experiences as a midwife ~

>

> L Krasner wrote:

>

>> From: L Krasner <gk-cfic@...>

>>

>> That's very dangerous advice, particularly if she is already

>toxemic. And

>> eating that high on the food chain will not reduce it no matter how

>much

>> dandeloin or other herbal crap she takes. There are plenty of

>studies

>> that shows that eating in excess of 25-30 grams of protein a day

>causes

>> decalcification of bone. Eating cooked protein causes more problems.

>Or

>> did you intend that she eat that whole chicken uncooked!! I would

>> recommend " Problems With Meat " by A. Scharffenberg, MD. Or a

>hundred

>> other books on the subject.

>>

>> Yesterday there was a symposium of leading nutritionists who ganged

>up on

>> Dr Atkins for pushing this irresponsible high protein diet

>for 30

>> years without doing a single damn safety study to support it. We're

>> talking about a multimillionaire too.

>>

>> Besides humans, are there other herbivores in the wild that make

>other

>> animals a regular part of their diet that I'm not aware of?!

>>

>> gary

>>

>> On Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:20:18 -0700 " Larsen, LM "

>> <midwife1@...> writes:

>> >From: " Larsen, LM " <midwife1@...>

>> >

>> >Call Le Leche League. This is a bunch of bull. Tell her to eat

>loads

>> >of

>> >protein which will mean a whole chicken a day, 100 + grams of

>protein

>> >a day.

>> >Tell her to take dandeloin tincture which will help detoxify her

>> >liver.

>> >She's GOT to stay on top of the protein though. It's a lot but it

>will

>> >help

>> >pull her out of it or stop it. Look up toxemia on the internet and

>> >find any

>> >info put out by Tom Brewer.

>> >

>> > L Krasner wrote:

>> >

>> >> From: L Krasner <gk-cfic@...>

>> >>

>> >> Robin,

>> >> One can't diagnose properly with the info you supplied. Nor am I

>> >even a

>> >> clinician qualified to give advice. But generally, tell her to

>> >become a

>> >> vegan; reduce caloric intake slightly and start juiceing. Maybe

>fast

>> >one

>> >> day a week. All drugs are out.

>> >>

>> >> glk

>> >>

>> >> On Thu, 24 Feb 2000 10:34:37 -0800 " Sandi Lenfestey "

>> >> <slenfest@...> writes:

>> >> >From: " Sandi Lenfestey " <slenfest@...>

>> >> >

>> >> >Hello,

>> >> >

>> >> >I don't have any answers, but why don't you check with the

>ladies

>> >on

>> >> >the

>> >> >breastfeeding board on Momsonline? There is also a pediatrician

>> >pro

>> >> >who

>> >> >regularly answers questions. I bet he would have some great

>> >> >information for

>> >> >you.

>> >> >

>> >> >Go to www.momsonline.com

>> >> >

>> >> >Good luck, I hope all works out!

>> >> >

>> >> >Sandi

>> >> >

>> >> > Toxemia and alternatives???? OT

> >> >

> >> >> From: MeggyEm@...

> >> >>

> >> >> My sister in law has been told that she has toxemia. & nbsp;

>She

>is in

> >her

> >> >28th

> >> >week

> >> >> of pregnancy. & nbsp; She is being told that she will not be

>able

>to

> >> >breastfeed

> >> >this

> >> >> baby, because she got toxemia with her last two children and

>due

> >to

> >> >the

> >> >> toxemia, the children became very jaundiced and extremely

>ill

> >> >because of

> >> >> breastfeeding. & nbsp; I have never heard of such a thing.

> >> >> I know that jaundice is common with hospital deliveries

>(which

> >she

> >> >will be

> >> >> having). & nbsp; But, she has serious problem with anesthesia,

>so she

> >has

> >> >all of

> >> >her

> >> >> children naturally.

> >> >> Can anyone shed any light on this, or help with information

>on

> >how

> >> >to

> >> >> alleviate this problem? & nbsp; Also, is there any

>remedies/treatments

> >that

> >> >can

> >> >be

> >> >> given during pregnancy to lessen toxemia? & nbsp; I have

>talked

>with her

> >> >about

> >> >> dietary issues, but there are on a limited budget/state aid

>and

> >are

> >> >unable

> >> >to

> >> >> afford too many " luxury " items.

> >> >> Please email to me as she does not have internet access.

> >> >> Thanks.

> >> >> Robin

> >> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >> Make history and take part in the first online majority survey.

> >> Voice your opinions on american politics and the next

>president.

> >> Have your say at

> >> <a

>href= " 1/1873/1/_/489317/_/951433110/ " >http://click.egr\

oups.com/1/1873/1/_/489317/_/951433110/</a>

> >>

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >Get a FREE $10 gas card when you join carclub.com. As a member,

> >you can save up to $550 a year if you own a car, and thousands

> >more when you're buying one.

> ><a

>href= " 1/1940/1/_/489317/_/951502533/ " >http://click.egr\

oups.com/1/1940/1/_/489317/_/951502533/</a>

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

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oups.com/1/1636/1/_/489317/_/951537217/</a>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------</b\

lockquote>

></html>

>

>--------------EA248CF6B94CC2E49977FBD0--

>

February 27, 2000

It's a warning sign that protein messes up mineral metabolism. Keep

gigling.

gary

On Sun, 27 Feb 2000 15:23:59 -0700 " Larsen, LM "

<midwife1@...> writes:

>From: " Larsen, LM " <midwife1@...>

>

>cmermer@... wrote:

>

>> From: cmermer@...

>>

>> In a message dated 2/25/00 10:55:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,

>> gk-cfic@... writes:

>>

>> >

>> > That's very dangerous advice, particularly if she is already

>toxemic. And

>> > eating that high on the food chain will not reduce it no matter

>how much

>> > dandeloin or other herbal crap she takes. There are plenty of

>studies

>> > that shows that eating in excess of 25-30 grams of protein a day

>causes

>> > decalcification of bone. Eating cooked protein causes more

>problems. Or

>> > did you intend that she eat that whole chicken uncooked!! I

>would

>> > recommend " Problems With Meat " by A. Scharffenberg, MD. Or a

>hundred

>> > other books on the subject.

>>

>> I think she is more concerned with her toxemia than her bone density

>at this

>> point.

>>

>

>heheh this made me giggle. So true.

>

>>

>> Cory

>>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> The race is on! We've got the most comprehensive elections coverage

>> for women. Get your election updates at

>> 1/1877/1/_/489317/_/951593918/

>>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Get a FREE $15 BN.com gift certificate when you join carclub.com.

>As a member, you can save up to $550 a year if you own a car, and

>thousands more when you're buying one.

>1/1942/1/_/489317/_/951689947/

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

February 27, 2000

Oh , lighten up.

L Krasner wrote:

> From: L Krasner <gk-cfic@...>

>

> It's a warning sign that protein messes up mineral metabolism. Keep

> gigling.

> gary

>

> On Sun, 27 Feb 2000 15:23:59 -0700 " Larsen, LM "

> <midwife1@...> writes:

> >From: " Larsen, LM " <midwife1@...>

> >

> >cmermer@... wrote:

> >

> >> From: cmermer@...

> >>

> >> In a message dated 2/25/00 10:55:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> >> gk-cfic@... writes:

> >>

> >> >

> >> > That's very dangerous advice, particularly if she is already

> >toxemic. And

> >> > eating that high on the food chain will not reduce it no matter

> >how much

> >> > dandeloin or other herbal crap she takes. There are plenty of

> >studies

> >> > that shows that eating in excess of 25-30 grams of protein a day

> >causes

> >> > decalcification of bone. Eating cooked protein causes more

> >problems. Or

> >> > did you intend that she eat that whole chicken uncooked!! I

> >would

> >> > recommend " Problems With Meat " by A. Scharffenberg, MD. Or a

> >hundred

> >> > other books on the subject.

> >>

> >> I think she is more concerned with her toxemia than her bone density

> >at this

> >> point.

> >>

> >

> >heheh this made me giggle. So true.

> >

> >>

> >> Cory

> >>

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >> The race is on! We've got the most comprehensive elections coverage

> >> for women. Get your election updates at

> >> 1/1877/1/_/489317/_/951593918/

> >>

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >Get a FREE $15 BN.com gift certificate when you join carclub.com.

> >As a member, you can save up to $550 a year if you own a car, and

> >thousands more when you're buying one.

> >1/1942/1/_/489317/_/951689947/

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> The race is on! We've got the most comprehensive elections coverage

> for women. Get your election updates at

> 1/1877/1/_/489317/_/951703953/

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 27, 2000

Oh , lighten up. Like I said, in a nonpregnant state, I would totally

agree with you. I'm familiar with the study you sited and again, I agree with

it.

L Krasner wrote:

> From: L Krasner <gk-cfic@...>

>

> It's a warning sign that protein messes up mineral metabolism. Keep

> gigling.

> gary

>

> On Sun, 27 Feb 2000 15:23:59 -0700 " Larsen, LM "

> <midwife1@...> writes:

> >From: " Larsen, LM " <midwife1@...>

> >

> >cmermer@... wrote:

> >

> >> From: cmermer@...

> >>

> >> In a message dated 2/25/00 10:55:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> >> gk-cfic@... writes:

> >>

> >> >

> >> > That's very dangerous advice, particularly if she is already

> >toxemic. And

> >> > eating that high on the food chain will not reduce it no matter

> >how much

> >> > dandeloin or other herbal crap she takes. There are plenty of

> >studies

> >> > that shows that eating in excess of 25-30 grams of protein a day

> >causes

> >> > decalcification of bone. Eating cooked protein causes more

> >problems. Or

> >> > did you intend that she eat that whole chicken uncooked!! I

> >would

> >> > recommend " Problems With Meat " by A. Scharffenberg, MD. Or a

> >hundred

> >> > other books on the subject.

> >>

> >> I think she is more concerned with her toxemia than her bone density

> >at this

> >> point.

> >>

> >

> >heheh this made me giggle. So true.

> >

> >>

> >> Cory

> >>

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >> The race is on! We've got the most comprehensive elections coverage

> >> for women. Get your election updates at

> >> 1/1877/1/_/489317/_/951593918/

> >>

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >Get a FREE $15 BN.com gift certificate when you join carclub.com.

> >As a member, you can save up to $550 a year if you own a car, and

> >thousands more when you're buying one.

> >1/1942/1/_/489317/_/951689947/

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> The race is on! We've got the most comprehensive elections coverage

> for women. Get your election updates at

> 1/1877/1/_/489317/_/951703953/

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 28, 2000

That was my lighter side. Can't you tell?

On Sun, 27 Feb 2000 21:50:57 -0700 " Larsen, LM "

<midwife1@...> writes:

>From: " Larsen, LM " <midwife1@...>

>

>Oh , lighten up.

>

> L Krasner wrote:

>

>> From: L Krasner <gk-cfic@...>

>>

>> It's a warning sign that protein messes up mineral metabolism. Keep

>> gigling.

>> gary

>>

>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2000 15:23:59 -0700 " Larsen, LM "

>> <midwife1@...> writes:

>> >From: " Larsen, LM " <midwife1@...>

>> >

>> >cmermer@... wrote:

>> >

>> >> From: cmermer@...

>> >>

>> >> In a message dated 2/25/00 10:55:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,

>> >> gk-cfic@... writes:

>> >>

>> >> >

>> >> > That's very dangerous advice, particularly if she is already

>> >toxemic. And

>> >> > eating that high on the food chain will not reduce it no

>matter

>> >how much

>> >> > dandeloin or other herbal crap she takes. There are plenty of

>> >studies

>> >> > that shows that eating in excess of 25-30 grams of protein a

>day

>> >causes

>> >> > decalcification of bone. Eating cooked protein causes more

>> >problems. Or

>> >> > did you intend that she eat that whole chicken uncooked!! I

>> >would

>> >> > recommend " Problems With Meat " by A. Scharffenberg, MD.

>Or a

>> >hundred

>> >> > other books on the subject.

>> >>

>> >> I think she is more concerned with her toxemia than her bone

>density

>> >at this

>> >> point.

>> >>

>> >

>> >heheh this made me giggle. So true.

>> >

>> >>

>> >> Cory

>> >>

>>

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> >> The race is on! We've got the most comprehensive elections

>coverage

>> >> for women. Get your election updates at

>> >> 1/1877/1/_/489317/_/951593918/

>> >>

>>

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> >

>>

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> >Get a FREE $15 BN.com gift certificate when you join carclub.com.

>> >As a member, you can save up to $550 a year if you own a car, and

>> >thousands more when you're buying one.

>> >1/1942/1/_/489317/_/951689947/

>>

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> >

>>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> The race is on! We've got the most comprehensive elections coverage

>> for women. Get your election updates at

>> 1/1877/1/_/489317/_/951703953/

>>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Make history and take part in the first online majority survey.

>Voice your opinions on american politics and the next president.

>Have your say at

>1/1873/1/_/489317/_/951713164/

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

February 28, 2000

,

Relax. That's how I debate. When you said, " This is a bunch of bull " , I

thought you were up for a fight. But next time I'll try to remember to

throw in a few " happy faces " .

As it happens, I don't think I'm an extremist on diet advice. A little

meat in the diet, if you can handle it, is probably not that significant

a health concern by itself. I am only talking about very high protein

consumption, which you were pushing.

There must be a reason why humans cannot efficiently move fiberless flesh

through a long convoluted colon; why we have molars with a mandibular

joint that can grind food; why we don't produce uricase to break down

uric acid or stomach acid strong enough to digest bone; etc. I think the

reason is because we are designed to consume mostly veg. Maybe I'm simple

minded, but I can't see how a normal function as pregnancy should turn an

herbivore into a carnivore.

Physiology is an argument hard to overlook.

gary

On Sun, 27 Feb 2000 21:52:16 -0700 " Larsen, LM "

<midwife1@...> writes:

>From: " Larsen, LM " <midwife1@...>

>

>Oh , lighten up. Like I said, in a nonpregnant state, I would

>totally

>agree with you. I'm familiar with the study you sited and again, I

>agree with

>it.

>

> L Krasner wrote:

>

>> From: L Krasner <gk-cfic@...>

>>

>> It's a warning sign that protein messes up mineral metabolism. Keep

>> gigling.

>> gary

>>

>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2000 15:23:59 -0700 " Larsen, LM "

>> <midwife1@...> writes:

>> >From: " Larsen, LM " <midwife1@...>

>> >

>> >cmermer@... wrote:

>> >

>> >> From: cmermer@...

>> >>

>> >> In a message dated 2/25/00 10:55:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,

>> >> gk-cfic@... writes:

>> >>

>> >> >

>> >> > That's very dangerous advice, particularly if she is already

>> >toxemic. And

>> >> > eating that high on the food chain will not reduce it no

>matter

>> >how much

>> >> > dandeloin or other herbal crap she takes. There are plenty of

>> >studies

>> >> > that shows that eating in excess of 25-30 grams of protein a

>day

>> >causes

>> >> > decalcification of bone. Eating cooked protein causes more

>> >problems. Or

>> >> > did you intend that she eat that whole chicken uncooked!! I

>> >would

>> >> > recommend " Problems With Meat " by A. Scharffenberg, MD.

>Or a

>> >hundred

>> >> > other books on the subject.

>> >>

>> >> I think she is more concerned with her toxemia than her bone

>density

>> >at this

>> >> point.

>> >>

>> >

>> >heheh this made me giggle. So true.

>> >

>> >>

>> >> Cory

>> >>

>>

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> >> The race is on! We've got the most comprehensive elections

>coverage

>> >> for women. Get your election updates at

>> >> 1/1877/1/_/489317/_/951593918/

>> >>

>>

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> >

>>

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> >Get a FREE $15 BN.com gift certificate when you join carclub.com.

>> >As a member, you can save up to $550 a year if you own a car, and

>> >thousands more when you're buying one.

>> >1/1942/1/_/489317/_/951689947/

>>

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> >

>>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> The race is on! We've got the most comprehensive elections coverage

>> for women. Get your election updates at

>> 1/1877/1/_/489317/_/951703953/

>>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Get a FREE $15 BN.com gift certificate when you join carclub.com.

>As a member, you can save up to $550 a year if you own a car, and

>thousands more when you're buying one.

>1/1942/1/_/489317/_/951713243/

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

February 28, 2000

Oh good I'm working on my reply as we speak, well sorta speak

L Krasner wrote:

> From: L Krasner <gk-cfic@...>

>

> That was my lighter side. Can't you tell?

>

> On Sun, 27 Feb 2000 21:50:57 -0700 " Larsen, LM "

> <midwife1@...> writes:

> >From: " Larsen, LM " <midwife1@...>

> >

> >Oh , lighten up.

> >

> > L Krasner wrote:

> >

> >> From: L Krasner <gk-cfic@...>

> >>

> >> It's a warning sign that protein messes up mineral metabolism. Keep

> >> gigling.

> >> gary

> >>

> >> On Sun, 27 Feb 2000 15:23:59 -0700 " Larsen, LM "

> >> <midwife1@...> writes:

> >> >From: " Larsen, LM " <midwife1@...>

> >> >

> >> >cmermer@... wrote:

> >> >

> >> >> From: cmermer@...

> >> >>

> >> >> In a message dated 2/25/00 10:55:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> >> >> gk-cfic@... writes:

> >> >>

> >> >> >

> >> >> > That's very dangerous advice, particularly if she is already

> >> >toxemic. And

> >> >> > eating that high on the food chain will not reduce it no

> >matter

> >> >how much

> >> >> > dandeloin or other herbal crap she takes. There are plenty of

> >> >studies

> >> >> > that shows that eating in excess of 25-30 grams of protein a

> >day

> >> >causes

> >> >> > decalcification of bone. Eating cooked protein causes more

> >> >problems. Or

> >> >> > did you intend that she eat that whole chicken uncooked!! I

> >> >would

> >> >> > recommend " Problems With Meat " by A. Scharffenberg, MD.

> >Or a

> >> >hundred

> >> >> > other books on the subject.

> >> >>

> >> >> I think she is more concerned with her toxemia than her bone

> >density

> >> >at this

> >> >> point.

> >> >>

> >> >

> >> >heheh this made me giggle. So true.

> >> >

> >> >>

> >> >> Cory

> >> >>

> >>

> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >> >> The race is on! We've got the most comprehensive elections

> >coverage

> >> >> for women. Get your election updates at

> >> >> 1/1877/1/_/489317/_/951593918/

> >> >>

> >>

> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >> >

> >>

> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >> >Get a FREE $15 BN.com gift certificate when you join carclub.com.

> >> >As a member, you can save up to $550 a year if you own a car, and

> >> >thousands more when you're buying one.

> >> >1/1942/1/_/489317/_/951689947/

> >>

> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >> >

> >>

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >> The race is on! We've got the most comprehensive elections coverage

> >> for women. Get your election updates at

> >> 1/1877/1/_/489317/_/951703953/

> >>

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >Make history and take part in the first online majority survey.

> >Voice your opinions on american politics and the next president.

> >Have your say at

> >1/1873/1/_/489317/_/951713164/

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >

>

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February 29, 2000

Alright, here we go.

L Krasner wrote:

>

> You know more than me about pregnancy. I'm a generalist in this area.

> Some people seem to handle concentrated protein diets better than others.

> But anyone eating in excess of (I forget, but it's something like) 30

> grams pays a price in the long term. We actually need amino acids, which

> is far more easily obtained from a starch based diet.

This is one that I'm not sure I agree with. I have to think we are different

people from different backgrounds. If my husband

got all his aminos from starches, he's be fatter than a whale. I just don't

think we should use a one-size-fits-all approach.

Look, I was a vegetarian but got really lazy trying to eat with a meat eater.

I'm really on your side but not when it comes to

a pregnant woman whose in a very sick state!

> The reason for the

> need to rack up so many calories on a hi protein diet is because the

> energy required to digest protein is very high. Even real carnivores have

> to spend 95 percent of the day sleeping off their last meal.

Yes, and what are our cells and tissues made up of ? Not to sound like I'm

patronizing you but pregnant women are growing

little people. Now don't get me wrong, I have no issues with vegan pregnancies

or vegetarian pregnancies. I do however have

issues with toxic pregnant women not eating enough protein. Building a baby

takes an incredible amount of energy anyway. I

see your point but again, there's more to it when it comes to a pg woman. ( I

swear I'm going to stop saying that )

>

> Something I noticed about nutrition advice is that meat eating

> nutritionists say that meat is OK, and vegan nutritionists say that meat

> is not OK. But most vegans are FORMER meat eaters. That adds to their

> lack of bias, in a way. I would ask Brewer what other vegetarian animal

> in the wild switches to a voracious meat eater only while she's pregnant?

He'd probably say something like he's never asked them because they don't' talk.

Maybe they do to a certain degree to get them

out of such a state. I don't know. , you know animal studies are a good

basis for just that, a base. We can't expect

people to live and act like the monkeys do just because, well... " that's just

how the monkeys do it damn't!!!! "

> And does she also cook the protein before consuming it?! Read about

> Francis Pottenger's experiments with cats on cooked versus raw protein.

> Cooked protein is even more hazardous for herbivores than it is for

> carnivores.

I think I have. This would be fine if we were not talking about a pregnant woman

whose sick. You've heard other women's

testimonies on the list that a high protein diet pulled them out of a toxic

state. If I suggested to a toxic women to change

her diet to eat just starch based protein when she's that sick, that would be

worse on her body. To make a drastic change in

eating habits while pregnant would be disastrous. Not to mention to eat a vegan

diet takes work and time to understand it. It

takes a lot of knowledge to eat like that. Plus, to get the amount of protein

she needs to pull her out of toxemia, (100+ grams

a day) would require her to eat so much beans, legumes, etc. that she just

couldn't do it. Getting physically bigger, harder to

eat big meals, and if she's plagued with say heartburn, there's just no way.

Let me remind you again, (my mantra here)

pregnant women are different! There's an incredible amount of different things

going on. Delicate things. I don't know if a

vegan would find herself in a toxic state to begin with since our poor American

diet is in such a sad state, but I can't

imagine most of the women on this list who were pre-eclamptic all ate Mc's

either!!!

> Our bodies react AGAINST herbs, triggering catarrhal reactions. We

> erroneously interpret the increased pulse, fever, sweating, urination, or

> whatever the herb is supposed to do, as the cleansing effect. In reality,

> it is the body reacting to something that has no business in the body.

> The liver can detoxify itself. You just have to remove the obstacles (the

> need to digest food) and additional burdens (herbs, drugs, etc).

No, the liver can't detoxify it's self by itself when a woman's toxemic. The

problem lies in the kidneys and liver. And the

burden would be the pregnancy. I'm telling you pregnancy is a total different

state of being. Women will spill protein in their

urine when toxemic. The liver just can't handle any protein because the liver

and kidney's are shutting down. When fed high

quantities of protein, it's like in a way building the system back up and then

we see the reversal.

I guess we're not going to agree, huh?

I don't know... when are you going to see it my way ?

>

> gary

>

> On Sun, 27 Feb 2000 15:23:14 -0700 " Larsen, LM "

> <midwife1@...> writes:

> >

> >--------------EA248CF6B94CC2E49977FBD0

> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> >

> >On a un-pregnant person, I would agree but not when it comes to a

> >pregnant

> >women. " General " rules apply to non pregnant people.

> >

> >First off, I'd want to know if she's seizing? Is she toxic or

> >pre-eclamptic?

> >I'd like to look at her blood work, blood

> >pressure, test her urine, swelling, and a whole slew of other clues.

> >Is this

> >doctor jumping the gun just because that's how doctors operate these

> >days due

> >to insurance companies being the rule makers or is this woman truly

> >compromised???

> >

> >Call Dr. Tom Brewer who has helped many women pull out of a toxemic

> >state. He

> >will take calls from what I understand free of charge.

> >

> >http://www.midwifery2000.com/brewer.html

> >

> >Yes, she has to eat the whole chicken, minus bones of course. Protein

> >is the

> >key in PREGNANCY!! . Again, were not talking about a non pregnant

> >women here,

> >like I said, the rules change in pregnancy. I would make sure her

> >calories

> >and protein are adequate in light of the woman's stress and activity

> >levels.

> >A diet which is not adequate in both protein and caloris leaves the

> >mother

> >and baby severely compromised. Brewer (1983) has found that when a

> >woman

> >eats one third fewer calories than she needs for her energy output,

> >half of

> >the protein she eats will be burned for calories. This may leave a

> >woman at

> >risk for an inadequately expanded blood volume even thourh she makes

> >high

> >quality dietary choices. For an example, a 1500 calorie diet with 90

> >grams

> >of protein is 1/3 below the RDA, ( I know, don't get me started on the

> >RDA

> >and what a bunch of crock that is but for the sake on an argument,

> >work with

> >me here <grin>) figure of 2400 calories for PREGNANCY, and would

> >only

> >provide 45 grams of protein available for building fetal tissues and

> >blood

> >volume expansion.

> >

> >See pregnant women have a normal blood volume expansion around 28

> >weeks, or

> >at least we want them to. This is an oddidity to non-pregnant people.

> >My

> >point is that pregnancy does very different things to the body as you

> >well

> >may know.

> >

> >The different herbal " craps " will help her liver detoxify and supply

> >her with

> >different minerals. I'd do tinctures for the cleansing and infusions

> >for the

> >mineral benefits.

> >

> >I would also have her lie on her left side for frequent rests

> >throughout the

> >day. I would make them at least 2 hour rest with lots of fluid intake.

> >A

> >gallon a day is not too much I would also have her NOT restrict her

> >salt

> >intake.

> >

> >Sources:

> >The Natural Pregnancy Book, Herbs, Nutrition, and other Holistic

> >Choices by

> >Aviva Jill Romm

> >Understanding Diagnostic Tests in the Childbearing Year by Anne Frye,

> >Certified Professional Midwife, BA, Holistic Midwife

> >Nurse Midwifery by Helen Varney

> >And all my schooling and experiences as a midwife ~

> >

> > L Krasner wrote:

> >

> >> From: L Krasner <gk-cfic@...>

> >>

> >> That's very dangerous advice, particularly if she is already

> >toxemic. And

> >> eating that high on the food chain will not reduce it no matter how

> >much

> >> dandeloin or other herbal crap she takes. There are plenty of

> >studies

> >> that shows that eating in excess of 25-30 grams of protein a day

> >causes

> >> decalcification of bone. Eating cooked protein causes more problems.

> >Or

> >> did you intend that she eat that whole chicken uncooked!! I would

> >> recommend " Problems With Meat " by A. Scharffenberg, MD. Or a

> >hundred

> >> other books on the subject.

> >>

> >> Yesterday there was a symposium of leading nutritionists who ganged

> >up on

> >> Dr Atkins for pushing this irresponsible high protein diet

> >for 30

> >> years without doing a single damn safety study to support it. We're

> >> talking about a multimillionaire too.

> >>

> >> Besides humans, are there other herbivores in the wild that make

> >other

> >> animals a regular part of their diet that I'm not aware of?!

> >>

> >> gary

> >>

> >> On Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:20:18 -0700 " Larsen, LM "

> >> <midwife1@...> writes:

> >> >From: " Larsen, LM " <midwife1@...>

> >> >

> >> >Call Le Leche League. This is a bunch of bull. Tell her to eat

> >loads

> >> >of

> >> >protein which will mean a whole chicken a day, 100 + grams of

> >protein

> >> >a day.

> >> >Tell her to take dandeloin tincture which will help detoxify her

> >> >liver.

> >> >She's GOT to stay on top of the protein though. It's a lot but it

> >will

> >> >help

> >> >pull her out of it or stop it. Look up toxemia on the internet and

> >> >find any

> >> >info put out by Tom Brewer.

> >> >

> >> > L Krasner wrote:

> >> >

> >> >> From: L Krasner <gk-cfic@...>

> >> >>

> >> >> Robin,

> >> >> One can't diagnose properly with the info you supplied. Nor am I

> >> >even a

> >> >> clinician qualified to give advice. But generally, tell her to

> >> >become a

> >> >> vegan; reduce caloric intake slightly and start juiceing. Maybe

> >fast

> >> >one

> >> >> day a week. All drugs are out.

> >> >>

> >> >> glk

> >> >>

> >> >> On Thu, 24 Feb 2000 10:34:37 -0800 " Sandi Lenfestey "

> >> >> <slenfest@...> writes:

> >> >> >From: " Sandi Lenfestey " <slenfest@...>

> >> >> >

> >> >> >Hello,

> >> >> >

> >> >> >I don't have any answers, but why don't you check with the

> >ladies

> >> >on

> >> >> >the

> >> >> >breastfeeding board on Momsonline? There is also a pediatrician

> >> >pro

> >> >> >who

> >> >> >regularly answers questions. I bet he would have some great

> >> >> >information for

> >> >> >you.

> >> >> >

> >> >> >Go to www.momsonline.com

> >> >> >

> >> >> >Good luck, I hope all works out!

> >> >> >

> >> >> >Sandi

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Toxemia and alternatives???? OT

> > >> >

> > >> >> From: MeggyEm@...

> > >> >>

> > >> >> My sister in law has been told that she has toxemia. & nbsp;

> >She

> >is in

> > >her

> > >> >28th

> > >> >week

> > >> >> of pregnancy. & nbsp; She is being told that she will not be

> >able

> >to

> > >> >breastfeed

> > >> >this

> > >> >> baby, because she got toxemia with her last two children and

> >due

> > >to

> > >> >the

> > >> >> toxemia, the children became very jaundiced and extremely

> >ill

> > >> >because of

> > >> >> breastfeeding. & nbsp; I have never heard of such a thing.

> > >> >> I know that jaundice is common with hospital deliveries

> >(which

> > >she

> > >> >will be

> > >> >> having). & nbsp; But, she has serious problem with anesthesia,

> >so she

> > >has

> > >> >all of

> > >> >her

> > >> >> children naturally.

> > >> >> Can anyone shed any light on this, or help with information

> >on

> > >how

> > >> >to

> > >> >> alleviate this problem? & nbsp; Also, is there any

> >remedies/treatments

> > >that

> > >> >can

> > >> >be

> > >> >> given during pregnancy to lessen toxemia? & nbsp; I have

> >talked

> >with her

> > >> >about

> > >> >> dietary issues, but there are on a limited budget/state aid

> >and

> > >are

> > >> >unable

> > >> >to

> > >> >> afford too many " luxury " items.

> > >> >> Please email to me as she does not have internet access.

> > >> >> Thanks.

> > >> >> Robin

> > >> >>

> > >> >

> > >>

> > >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > >> Make history and take part in the first online majority survey.

> > >> Voice your opinions on american politics and the next

> >president.

> > >> Have your say at

> > >> <a

>

>href= " 1/1873/1/_/489317/_/951433110/ " >http://click.egr\

oups.com/1/1873/1/_/489317/_/951433110/</a>

> > >>

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>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------</b\

lockquote>

> ></html>

> >

> >--------------EA248CF6B94CC2E49977FBD0--

> >

March 1, 2000

I have no knowledge one way or the other of high or low protein diets and

preeclampsia,

I just wanted to comment on this one statement of 's:

>Yes, and what are our cells and tissues made up of ?

(Referring to protein consumption) Herbivorous animals don't need to eat animal

protein to manufacture it. Some of the animals we eat are herbivores (cows,

sheep), some are omnivores (chickens, pigs), and the herbivores seem to produce

just as much protein as the omnivores on a diet of nothing more than plants

(although perhaps at a slower rate). (btw, herbivores being raised for human

consumption are usually fed artificially high amounts of protein, often

processed

animal protein, in order to make them grow faster, things they would not consume

if left to their own devices.) One thought that occurs to me is that

carnivorous/omnivorous

species seem to have shorter gestation periods in general. I guess the point

of this babbling is that biologically we don't need animal protein to produce

it (our own tissues). I suppose the debate lies in whether we're truly

omnivores

or herbivores. If we're comparing ourselves to other species, aren't we the

closest genetically to chimps? They eat meat occasionally (raw, obviously).

That's how the chimps do it, damn't! ;-) Personally, I feel best physically

when I eat mostly plant-based with some occasional animal protein. This has

gotten REALLY off-topic, sorry. , I'm not arguing with you, pregnancy

can be a totally different ballgame, especially when there's an imbalance that

needs fixing, I just had issue with that one point of needing protein to make

protein.

>. I don't know if a

>vegan would find herself in a toxic state to begin with since our poor American

diet is in such a sad state, but I can't

>imagine most of the women on this list who were pre-eclamptic all ate

Mc's

either!!!

This is an interesting point. Does anyone know a vegan woman who had problems

with toxemia? I assume there have been studies on this, I wonder what has been

found.

Oh, 's point about herbs not belonging in the body, and back to animal

studies,

animals will eat plants they would not normally consume when they're ill, things

that would be toxic in large quantities but in small amounts have an effect

on the disease. Various kinds of livestock, for instance, will eat plants that

kill internal parasites when they have a heavy load of them, if allowed access

to these plants (which is rare in a domesticated environment).

Enough of my rambling.

Aubin

March 1, 2000

,

On Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:39:28 -0700 " Larsen, LM "

<midwife1@...> writes:

I have to think we are

>different people from different backgrounds. If my husband

>got all his aminos from starches, he's be fatter than a whale. I just

>don't think we should use a one-size-fits-all approach.

----------------------------kelly, you're just not listening to me. I'm

the moderate one. I'm the one saying that some people seem to handle meat

alright. You're the one who advocates an unusually high meat diet for a

pregnnat woman. I don't understand your point about your husband.

>Yes, and what are our cells and tissues made up of ? Not to sound like

>I'm patronizing you but pregnant women are growing

>little people.

----------------------------How the hell does the elephant, ape, or koala

bear get enough amino acids to build a growing fetus? Thousands of

vegetarian species do not become carnivores only during their

pregnancies! By the way, how do some of the most stongest animals in the

wild seem to build muscle and strength solely on vegetable diet?? How

does the cow produce humongous quantities of protein in its milk solely

on hay and grass?!

>He'd probably say something like he's never asked them because they

>don't' talk. Maybe they do to a certain degree to get them

>out of such a state. I don't know. , you know animal studies are

>a good basis for just that, a base. We can't expect

>people to live and act like the monkeys do just because, well...

> " that's just how the monkeys do it damn't!!!! "

-------------------------------Old (flawed) analogy. Man is indeed the

only animal that does things no other animals can do. But it does not

justify that we can eat anything we want. Animals don't have to talk.

Their action speaks for them. Physiology and biochemistry determined

" man's " first diet. A higher cognitive ability and an opposing thumb had

allowed him to fly airplanes, build sky scrapers, and eat fried chicken.

Too bad his colon couldn't keep up with the evolution of his brain!

>I think I have. This would be fine if we were not talking about a

>pregnant woman whose sick. You've heard other women's

>testimonies on the list that a high protein diet pulled them out of a

>toxic state.

----------------------------------anecdotal. Did they eat pasta and

cooked vegetables? Or did they eat raw vegetables, seeds, coarse grains,

and sprouts? Did the soak their nuts before they ate them, or did they

eat roasted salted nuts. Did they cook their grains in boiling water or

in a thermous? Did they juice vegetables? Did they fast one day a week as

a last resort? Did they take vitamin supplements (a bad thing to do). You

have no right to throw these stories in my face without giving me

complete information.

If I suggested to a toxic women to change

>her diet to eat just starch based protein

---------------------Amino acids, not from a baked potato or pasta. Raw

vegetables or soaked.

when she's that sick, that

>would be worse on her body. To make a drastic change in

>eating habits while pregnant would be disastrous.

--------------------------------------Like asking a woman to eat a whole

chicken?!

Plus, to get the amount of

>protein she needs to pull her out of toxemia, (100+ grams

>a day) would require her to eat so much beans, legumes, etc. that she

>just couldn't do it.

----------------------I went through this. Protein requires too much

energy to digest. Whatever fails to digest (most of it, particularly if

it is cooked meat) becomes toxic and acidic. It is precisely these toxic

protein acids that should not be generated.

Getting physically bigger, harder to

>eat big meals, and if she's plagued with say heartburn

------------------------Heatburn comes from stomach acid getting too

high, because the stomach is congested, because too much protein

food---which triggers it-----had been consumed. You don't get heartburn

from a banana (which happens to contain all essential animo acids).

there's just

>no way. Let me remind you again, (my mantra here)

>pregnant women are different!

--------------------------But no different than vagetarian women who do

not get toxemic. You only have to see one white crow to prove that not

all crows are black.

.. Women will spill protein in their

>urine when toxemic. The liver just can't handle any protein because

>the liver and kidney's are shutting down. When fed high

>quantities of protein, it's like in a way building the system back up

>and then we see the reversal.

-------------------------------Women become pre-eclamptic not just by

eating at Macs. Their liver and kidneys are shutting down because

of eating cooked proteins and starches and other crap, and the additional

burden of pregnancy doesn't help. You don't burden these organs more with

additional cooked protein. You provide a means to allow them to rest. A

long fast is not possible while pregnant. The other way to give these

organs a rest is to lighten the burden, with high nutrient, high amino

acid content foods. Doctors don't prescribe sprouts, or juicing a raw

potato, or what have you. Instead, they only tell them to eat whatever

they want, or eat a WHOLE CHICKEN !!!!!!

You can compare notes with other people that may agree with me:

Barbara Feldman, 212-475-4490, The Fertility Awareness Center

Seaton, 212-367-8500, The Childbearing Center

, I promise you. If you just say that I'm right, we could end this

debate immediately. Wouldn't that be nice?

March 9, 2000

It's been proven in both vegetarian, vegans, and MEAT eating women that a

diet high in protein has pulled them out of toxemia!

---------------------It had to come to this. OK, show me the studies. Not

anecdotes. I'm sure the interests that promote meat have sponsored such

studies. I don't know if there are similar studies to prove my point that

toxemia may be dealth with hygienically. But perhaps one of the people I

cited before may know of some. I also agree with " Fit For Life " s (Harvey

Diamond) recommended diet for pregnant women. Herbert Shelton said that

women may fast 3-10 days early in their pregnancies to deal with toxemia.

My husband is one human that can't get all his aminos from starches. The

starch would put him in the Big and Fat store for sure

-------------------Again, I was NOT talking about pasta or grains. A

starch-based diet means vegetables, nuts, seeds, and sprouts. All

properly prepared. It may also include coarse grains, but not

necessarily.

I was commenting on your remarks about getting all our aminos from

starches. He's different though. I don't know what his body would do if

he couldn't eat meat.

--------------------Since I don't know your husband's diet and medical

history, it is unfair to keep using him as an example. And I'm sure he

can't get pregnant, so it doesn't even pertain to you oft-repeated caveat

that you're only talking about toxemic pregnant women. Like I said, some

people have no health problems consuming small amounts of meat. Some do.

But if your husband cannot absorb amino acids from ANY starch-based food

(ie-vegs, nuts, seeds, grains, or sprouts), then something is wrong and

you should not cite this example as typical. Perhaps you do not prepare

it correctly? I don't know.

> >Yes, and what are our cells and tissues made up of ? Not to sound like

> >I'm patronizing you but pregnant women are growing

> >little people.

> ----------------------------How the hell does the elephant, ape, or

koala

> bear get enough amino acids to build a growing fetus? Thousands of

> vegetarian species do not become carnivores only during their

> pregnancies! By the way, how do some of the most stongest animals in

the

> wild seem to build muscle and strength solely on vegetable diet?? How

> does the cow produce humongous quantities of protein in its milk solely

> on hay and grass?!

-------But they aren't coming from a sick place. It's not *MY* proven

fact that high

protein diets pull women out of this malady.

-----------------------------, you're getting slippery here. You

seemed to argue that protein is necessary for " growing little people " .

When I rebutted that, you claim that you're only referring to those who

are toxemic, as if that even makes a difference.

> . Women will spill protein in their

> >urine when toxemic. The liver just can't handle any protein because

> >the liver and kidney's are shutting down. When fed high

> >quantities of protein, it's like in a way building the system back up

> >and then we see the reversal.

I talked to my senior midwife and yes, she has had both vegan

and vegetarian women who've gone toxemic. Toxemia is a lack of protein in

the

diet malady which happens WHEN women are pregnant! I'm not talking about

non

pregnant women.

-------------------------------We don't even agree on definitions.

Toxemia to me is uneliminated waste that accumulates in blood, lymph and

tissues. As I said, raw meat or milk can be a healthy source of protein.

But you agreed that this is not the way these foods are consumed today.

Cooking these foods deforms the proteins and destroys the enzymes. This

leads to most of the degenerative diseases we see today, and back to when

cooking animal protein was first begun. (Primitive cultures ate raw meat

& fish.)

The typical high protein diet CAUSES toxemia (my definition of it). But

even under your own definition, your solution makes no sense,

intuitively. Nor do you propose a mechanism to explain it. Apparently,

you say that the liver and kidneys cannot handle protein, so they shut

down and allow it to spill into the urine, un-utilized by the body. Then

you say that MORE dietary protein reverses the load on these organs.

HOW??!

What happens on a excessively high protein diet is something called

ketosis. Less starch in the diet starves the cells of sugar. Instead,

body fats are broken down into fatty acids which feeds the cells. But

this alternative energy process also yields ketones and acids, which

causes acidic blood, loss of cell fluids, and mineral imbalances and

calcium loss. In short, disease. This is the " legacy " of the Atkins

weight-loss diet. But what it does to the health baby, or the mother is

another matter. Where are the safety studies to support switching to this

radical (from the norm) diet??! Explain how being pregnant somehow alters

these biochemical processes?

, you do not dispute problems from a high protein diet. Yet you

insist that it reverses toxemia in pregnant women. But you don't explain

HOW, nor do you cite any supporting studies. You also dismiss alternative

solutions to deal toxemia. Are these women preparing the foods correctly?

Did they eat raw or cooked vegs? Did they juice? All the things I

suggested: were they tried? You never addressed these things. If you

don't respond, that means you don't know.

You're going to have to accept this... A high protein diet pulls women

out of

toxemia. For years doctors AND midwives didn't know why women were

seizing

and dying. When an increase in protein was suggested, women started

getting

better. It's not anecdotal! You're going to have to accept the fact that

I

didn't give out dangerous information .

--------------------------------What studies or hospitals published

anything to support this? Did they ONLY try high protein?

> Getting physically bigger, harder to

> >eat big meals, and if she's plagued with say heartburn

> ------------------------Heatburn comes from stomach acid getting too

> high, because the stomach is congested, because too much protein

> food---which triggers it-----had been consumed. You don't get heartburn

> from a banana (which happens to contain all essential animo acids).

>

Bullshit! Pregnant women can and do get heartburn from even papaya!

----------------------------THAT irritation is not from acid that they

are generating. They may have had a blockage. Or they eat fruit following

another (slower) meal that is still trying to digest. Or they were

nauseus and couldn't keep down ANY foods. This is not a veg vs. meat

argument.

> -------------------------------Women become pre-eclamptic not just by

> eating at Macs. Their liver and kidneys are shutting down because

> of eating cooked proteins and starches and other crap, and the

additional

> burden of pregnancy doesn't help. You don't burden these organs more

with

> additional cooked protein. You provide a means to allow them to rest. A

> long fast is not possible while pregnant. The other way to give these

> organs a rest is to lighten the burden, with high nutrient, high amino

> acid content foods. Doctors don't prescribe sprouts, or juicing a raw

> potato, or what have you. Instead, they only tell them to eat whatever

> they want, or eat a WHOLE CHICKEN !!!!!!

> You can compare notes with other people that may agree with me:

> Barbara Feldman, 212-475-4490, The Fertility Awareness Center

> Seaton, 212-367-8500, The Childbearing Center

>

You totally discarded my sources, what makes you think I should listen to

yours? Someon else posted references to vegan diets. They hold no credit

when

we're talking about pregnant women. Not once was there mention to

pregnant

women.

-----------------------------------You should investigate other points of

view because this is your specialty, supposedly. And you're wrong:

pregnancy IS their focus.

, scream all you want. I do not " have to accept this " stuff just

because you say it is so. I do not know what this diet does to the future

health of the child. But it can't be good. I do know that it is bad for

the mother in many ways. I've heard of safer ways to deal with toxemia

(my definition). I suggest that you look into them. Don't ask me to do

your research.

You started this debate by saying that my advice to a pregnant woman was

" full of bull " . It doesn't look like you're going to take that back. And

I'm not going to say that your recommendation is safe. So let's end this.

OK?

----

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Re: Toxemia and alternatives???? OT

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