Ethics

[Guest guest]

Diane -

I really agree with you on this. As a newbie I made one very

critical error. I started saving recipes, but did not save the

source/credit. After learning how much hard work goes into a recipe

I feel that I can not/should not sell product made from those

recipes. I have saved all the recipes and I use them as guides for

ratios of ingredients and as suggestions of what to add to " spice " up

my products.

I do NOT, absolutley do NOT think that creating your own instructions

makes it your recipe.

I hope you re-think it too. Come on, if I can make my own recipes

you can too! And I am pretty sure that the members will help you

edit your recipes. You can do it!! And you will be even more proud

of your product. And you will know more about it and will be able

to sell it easier/better.

I don't mean to scream at ya...please don't feel that way. But I am

passionate about this opinion.

Christi in Dallas

> In a message dated 12/20/01 1:39:33 AM Central Standard Time,

> @y... writes:

>

>

> > I can use any recipe and as long as I write my own instructions

or change

> > something I can use it, reprint under my name, etc...

> >

> .............and as long as you can sleep good at nite using other

people's

> work. The " laws " don't always govern doing what's right. I hope

you rethink

> this.

>

> Diane s

> Wheaton Soapworks

[Guest guest]

You know, this is a very touchy subject and their are people on both sides of

the fence. How many recipes are their for say Chocolate Chip Cookies? Who is

to say that the recipe my mom uses isn't one she made up and just happens to be

the same one on a bag of Nestle chocolate chips? It's a really hard matter to

" define " and like most things, as long as you are not plagiarizing the words of

someone it really should be ok, unless of course, it's copyrighted, like " Mrs.

Field's Chocolate Chip Cookies " . I'm having a hard time with this, because as

content providers, authors, et al... we are basically compiling information for

readers/visitors so that they will have it handy and in one place. We don't

want to have a link for this and that when we can be the ones to provide what

they want. Not sure if I am making a ton of sense~ I just know that for what I

am doing, I am trying to tweak the recipes a bit to make them mine, but it

doesn't always work. The best I can do is add my own little " ditty " to make it

more ME!

I hope I didn't offend anyone... who's to say the site we get the recipes from

or the recipe we got through word of mouth shouldn't be compiled with our

information so long as we don't copy everything verbatim. Isn't that what most

of us have done all through school with book reports, then research papers, and

for those who have a higher college education than I do, thesis papers? Please

someone correct me if I am wrong, but I have been doing a lot of research on

this and from what I have read... this was my conclusion.

After all, what are most recipe books? Heck... for that matter most textbooks

are the same way, I mean come on, if we were doing a PreSchool Math site, how

many ways can one write 1 + 1??

Forgive me if I am way off base, I have just received such conflicting

information! I decided to go for it! Put everything I can get my hands on on

one site!

Correct me if I am wrong!

www.homeheartstrings.com

Re: Ethics

Diane -

I really agree with you on this. As a newbie I made one very

critical error. I started saving recipes, but did not save the

source/credit. After learning how much hard work goes into a recipe

I feel that I can not/should not sell product made from those

recipes. I have saved all the recipes and I use them as guides for

ratios of ingredients and as suggestions of what to add to " spice " up

my products.

I do NOT, absolutley do NOT think that creating your own instructions

makes it your recipe.

I hope you re-think it too. Come on, if I can make my own recipes

you can too! And I am pretty sure that the members will help you

edit your recipes. You can do it!! And you will be even more proud

of your product. And you will know more about it and will be able

to sell it easier/better.

I don't mean to scream at ya...please don't feel that way. But I am

passionate about this opinion.

Christi in Dallas

> In a message dated 12/20/01 1:39:33 AM Central Standard Time,

> @y... writes:

>

>

> > I can use any recipe and as long as I write my own instructions

or change

> > something I can use it, reprint under my name, etc...

> >

> .............and as long as you can sleep good at nite using other

people's

> work. The " laws " don't always govern doing what's right. I hope

you rethink

> this.

>

> Diane s

> Wheaton Soapworks

[Guest guest]

,

I have thought about this most of the afternoon and still not real sure

about the ethics of using the receipes that are posted on the internet and

sold in books all over the place...

I have never been one to copy a receipe just the way that someone else wrote

it...Not in cooking or with anything else..So if I take a receipe and change

some of it, or " tweak it " , does that mean that I have stolen someone's

receipe?

If it is posted for anyone to see and use????

Now, if I was in the business of selling receipes and I copied someone

else's,

then that might be a problem...

I think what I am saying is, I really agree with you...If the receipe is not

under

a copyright name, then it is there for anyone to use...

I use alot of receipes that I found on a wonderful site...Everyone of them

work great for cp soap...Now I have talked to the owner of the site and that

is what they are posted for...But I have changed some of the oils...I guess

that is

what some call " Tweaking it " ...

I might be coming in on the wrong end of the deal here...I am real sure

where

you are headed here...Are you posting on your site for everyone to see and

use???

Or you claiming that all of the receipes are ones that you made up

yourself????

I am running on and on and may not be making any sense...

Let me know what you think...

frances

Re: Ethics

>

>

> Diane -

>

> I really agree with you on this. As a newbie I made one very

> critical error. I started saving recipes, but did not save the

> source/credit. After learning how much hard work goes into a recipe

> I feel that I can not/should not sell product made from those

> recipes. I have saved all the recipes and I use them as guides for

> ratios of ingredients and as suggestions of what to add to " spice " up

> my products.

>

> I do NOT, absolutley do NOT think that creating your own instructions

> makes it your recipe.

>

> I hope you re-think it too. Come on, if I can make my own recipes

> you can too! And I am pretty sure that the members will help you

> edit your recipes. You can do it!! And you will be even more proud

> of your product. And you will know more about it and will be able

> to sell it easier/better.

>

> I don't mean to scream at ya...please don't feel that way. But I am

> passionate about this opinion.

>

> Christi in Dallas

>

>

> > In a message dated 12/20/01 1:39:33 AM Central Standard Time,

> > @y... writes:

> >

> >

> > > I can use any recipe and as long as I write my own instructions

> or change

> > > something I can use it, reprint under my name, etc...

> > >

>

> > .............and as long as you can sleep good at nite using other

> people's

> > work. The " laws " don't always govern doing what's right. I hope

> you rethink

> > this.

> >

> > Diane s

> > Wheaton Soapworks

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/27/01 12:09:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,

1barbie@... writes:

<< Whether you are making soap or anything else most has already been tried.

Barbie >>

this is true i read in a religious passage 'there is nothing new under the

sun....' it is a common saying that comes from many a prophet. beside only

Allah (God) knows our intentions . i have found even when i am just in my

thoughts or actions it comes out all wrong in the translation so as long as

you could tell your plan to God and believe He would agree it is between you

and He . -tamika

[Guest guest]

What is the possibility that any of us could come up with a recipe that someone

else has not made.

I am not talking about copying someone else's recipe.

I can go to the lye calculator and put in different ingredients and percentages

, but who is to say someone else has not put in the same.

Whether you are making soap or anything else most has already been tried.

Barbie

WWW.Stilwaters.com

[Guest guest]

Christie,

Yikes, I have been copying recipes without the name of the people who

developed them. I have been thinking only in terms of my personal use, but

it is conceivable that one day I may start selling things and then how will I

get permission or give credit where credit is due? I am glad you mentioned

this point. It is an important one. Thanks.

Sage

[Guest guest]

Hello,

A recent conference on medical ethics reported in the local paper on Sunday

inspired the following letter to the editor:

Dear Editor:

The recent conference on medical ethics reminds us that it would be quite

beneficial to us all if medical ethics were universally applied. However they

are not. In particular, in the treatment of, or rather the lack of proper

treatment of patients with post thyroid deficiencies would benefit greatly from

adherence to statements of medical ethics, such as these:

When the medical associations author medical practice guidelines, they are

vicariously practicing medicine on patients. As such, they should adhere to " A

Physician Shall, While Caring for a Patient, Regard Responsibility to the

Patient as Paramount. " (American Medical Association, 2001) However, in the

case of the patient with continuing symptoms of hypothyroidism in spite of

normalized thyroid function tests, the patient is not paramount. The patient is

not considered. The patient is not considered because the relevant science has

not been considered in spite of " A Physician Shall Continue to Study, Apply, and

Advance Scientific Knowledge, Maintain a Commitment to Medical Education, Make

Relevant Information Available to Patients, Colleagues, and the Public. "

(American Medical Association, 2001)

The hypothyroidism guidelines, as enforced or threatened to be enforced by

boards of medicine, demand physicians betray medicine or create bogus excuses in

spite of " A Physician Shall Be Honest in all Professional Interactions. "

(American Medical Association, 2001)

The medications offered these patients are not suitable for their maladies,

consequently these patients are not treated in the patient's interest when

providing medical care which has the effect of weakening the patient's physical

and mental condition – in spite of " A Physician Shall Act Only in the Patient's

Interest When Providing Medical Care Which Might Have the Effect of Weakening

the Physical and Mental Condition of the Patient. " (World Medical Association,

1949, 1968, 1983) And in spite of the proper medication has been approved and

indicated by the Food and Drug Administration.

Nominally properly treated patients with the symptoms of hypothyroidism, but

with continuing symptoms, would have far greater well being if medicine actually

adhered to their own statements of ethics. Such patients live with loss of

energy and attractiveness and die of increased susceptibility to disease,

particularly life's great killers, diabetes and heart disease. But no statement

of ethics has inspired anyone in medicine to end this medical depravity.

Sincerely,

K. Pritchard

[Guest guest]

Gordon Gecko's 'greed' still appears to prevail. skSunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7CEugene, Oregon, 97401541- 654-0850; Fx; 541- 654-0834www.drsunnykierstyn.com CC: ; mochihchu@...; dranetsimard@...From: dm.bones@...Subject: Re: ethicsDate: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 18:27:27 -0800skrndc1@...

The author summarizes, ". . . the key to the patient/physician relationship, traditionally the core of our American healthcare system, lies in the ability of both parties to deal fairly and honestly with each other without being inappropriately influenced by any third party."If the best care possible for the patient is the primary concern of the physician, then who cares who's paying? How much is enough to be paid in order to practice at your best? What's keeping me from practicing at my best? Not a third party, not the amount I'm paid.Putting the patient ahead of income seems to be the ethics involved here. Demanding proof of good practice shouldn't be a problem either. Would you want less as a patient? Putting the patient ahead of profit seems weird in the system, it's set up so much for profit. Sears, DC, IAYT1218 NW 21st AvePortland, Oregon 97209v: 503-225-0255f: 503-525-6902www.docbones.comOn Jan 21, 2012, at 9:24 AM, Sunny Kierstyn wrote: Good lazy Saturday morning all: Wasn't setting out this am to seek out issues but came across this on CPT chat board I'ver recently discovered; it add grist to our own concerns with all of these funding issues as we weave the current health conundrums and it is interesting to see the MD side. Nice to see some of them raising their head to look about the landscape.http://www.spiritofhealthcare.com/2011/10/31/where-does-medicine-go-from-here/ Sunny Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7CEugene, Oregon, 97401541- 654-0850; Fx; 541- 654-0834www.drsunnykierstyn.com

[Guest guest]

This is an excellent article I agree. In 2003 I made the decision to transition my practice away from insurance billing after about two years of fear based contemplation up to that point. I was well established and the transition was fairly smooth. Patients pay at the time of visit and are provided with a statement in an addressed (but not stamped) envelope to mail to their insurance company. We still have a contract with CHP which works well and we bill PIP within the first year and of course Medicare. This has worked well for my style of practice though there are many patients that choose not to treat with me when they find out they will have to pay up front even thought we keep our fees very reasonable. Like many of you, I do a lot of Nutrition and wellness focused therapy which Insurance does not pay for any way. If Insurance paid for those therapies I may not have changed over. I have a sense of cost/benefit with every treatment decision that I make and I believe it makes me a much better doctor. While I don’t have any ethical dilemma with this I do have a moral one with regards to not being available to treat some of the patients that seek care. I am recently putting more effort into pre screening and educating my patients about my philosophy of care and if I had it to do over again would have done a lot more in the past. Overall, this has been one of the best practice/business decisions I have made and I would never go back to an Insurance based practice. Just my two bits worth.

Domby D.C. DIBAKPO Box 1108Scappoose, Oregon, USA97056phone 503 543-3195

From: " Sears" <dm.bones@...>"Sunny Kierstyn" <skrndc1msn>Cc: "" < >, "Matt Freedman DC" <mochihchu >, "Annette Simard" <dranetsimardgmail>Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 6:27:27 PMSubject: Re: ethics

The author summarizes, ". . . the key to the patient/physician relationship, traditionally the core of our American healthcare system, lies in the ability of both parties to deal fairly and honestly with each other without being inappropriately influenced by any third party."

If the best care possible for the patient is the primary concern of the physician, then who cares who's paying? How much is enough to be paid in order to practice at your best? What's keeping me from practicing at my best? Not a third party, not the amount I'm paid.

Putting the patient ahead of income seems to be the ethics involved here. Demanding proof of good practice shouldn't be a problem either. Would you want less as a patient?

Putting the patient ahead of profit seems weird in the system, it's set up so much for profit.

Sears, DC, IAYT

1218 NW 21st Ave

Portland, Oregon 97209

v: 503-225-0255

f: 503-525-6902

www.docbones.com

On Jan 21, 2012, at 9:24 AM, Sunny Kierstyn wrote:

Good lazy Saturday morning all: Wasn't setting out this am to seek out issues but came across this on CPT chat board I'ver recently discovered; it add grist to our own concerns with all of these funding issues as we weave the current health conundrums and it is interesting to see the MD side. Nice to see some of them raising their head to look about the landscape.http://www.spiritofhealthcare.com/2011/10/31/where-does-medicine-go-from-here/ Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7CEugene, Oregon, 97401541- 654-0850; Fx; 541- 654-0834www.drsunnykierstyn.com

[Guest guest]

I would be interested in hearing more accounts of Doctors moving away from the insurance model.  I practiced my first year as a cash practice, offering " superbills " and an affordable fee structure.  Eventually, I had enough seniors desiring care with me that I compromised and signed up in Medicare as non-par.  Since I was billing Medicare and using a billing service, I figured I ought to accept health insurance (again, out-of-network) and so I began that as well.  Finally, when established pt.s were in MVA's or work accidents, I accepted their cases as well.

 That transition began 4 years ago.  I still have no clue how to efficiently document to medicare standards (PART, SOAP, ABN, Affidavits, acute/maintenance, etc.) while delivering holistic chiropractic care.  I don't want the pt. or myself to focus on their symptoms while my goal is actually to lead them to a greater expression of health.  I may be over doing it, may be under doing it.  I see no uniformity in what the " experts " teach.  With 67% error rates amongst chiropractic medicare billing, I fear that many if not most of us have our heads in the sand.

 This keeps me wound up and is not good for my own health.  What about you? Dr. Ian Jarman D.C.Family Wellness ChiropractorCafe of Life @ Florence, Oregon(541)997-5100

www.cafeoflife.com " Live as if your life depends on it " -Werner Erhard