Re: Dr Hertoghe book really useful...

[Guest guest]

I don't know the answer to that Miriam, she just said that perhaps

the reason I could not optimise was because (when I told her I had

high progesterone) was because prog. imitates cortisol and can block

receptors. I Googled this yesterday and saw that the receptors are

similar.

Yes I read Lee's book years ago when I was in the menopause and

did not see much about this, though I have been told there is one

para somewhere in the book.

I have gone ahead and started on the Oestrogel as I am so ill and

don't want to waste any more time. The results are not back yet but I

cannot imagine I will be anything but low in oestrogen.

Mo

>

> So where did the moderator get this information come from? I

haven't

> come across anything like that in any of the thyroid or hormone

books

> I have read so far. Not that I am casting aspersions ... just

interested.

>

> How much progesterone is too high exactly? What sort of numbers

does

> she mention? I would like to compare her figures with the ones

> Lee considers advisable.

>

> I hope you get to the bottom of this problem of not being able to

> utilise the thyroid hormone.

>

> Miriam

>

>

> > I heard this recently from the moderator on an adrenals

> > list. She said that progesterone can mimic cortisol and so block

> > adrenal receptors which would have the knock-on effect of

disrupting

> thyroid.

>

[Guest guest]

Perhaps you would post your results, Mo, when you get them, and put a

comment saying whether you consider that your progesterone is still

very high or not? That would be useful for me. Hope you are soon

feeling a bit better.

Thanks,

Miriam

> I have gone ahead and started on the Oestrogel as I am so ill and

> don't want to waste any more time. The results are not back yet but

I cannot imagine I will be anything but low in oestrogen.

[Guest guest]

>

> > I have gone ahead and started on the Oestrogel as I am so ill and

> > don't want to waste any more time. The results are not back yet but

> I cannot imagine I will be anything but low in oestrogen.

Good luck with the estrogel Mo. I hope it helps you as it has helped

me. I know it's only part of the puzzle but every piece in place helps

us see the bigger picture more clearly.

I hope you feel better soon.

x

[Guest guest]

Hi there,

Oestrogen is very important in the scheme of things as it is one of

the many adrenal hormones - I have renal issues and adrenal issues and

could not get out of bed and was in agony with my joints - I took HRT

again and the pain disappeared and my energy levels went through the

roof. Obviously not everyone is the same I know that and taking HRT

can deplete you of zinc but it also IS NOT the big bady that every

says it is.

regards

Mandy

[Guest guest]

Hi there,

Oestrogen is very important in the scheme of things as it is one of

the many adrenal hormones - I have renal issues and adrenal issues and

could not get out of bed and was in agony with my joints - I took HRT

again and the pain disappeared and my energy levels went through the

roof. Obviously not everyone is the same I know that and taking HRT

can deplete you of zinc but it also IS NOT the big bady that every

says it is.

regards

Mandy

[Guest guest]

Thanks , much appreciated.

I have just posted my very confusing results as the result came back

quicker than expected.

I have two lots of Oestrogel if you would like them

Mo

>

>

> >

> > > I have gone ahead and started on the Oestrogel as I am so ill

and

> > > don't want to waste any more time. The results are not back yet

but

> > I cannot imagine I will be anything but low in oestrogen.

>

>

> Good luck with the estrogel Mo. I hope it helps you as it has

helped

> me. I know it's only part of the puzzle but every piece in place

helps

> us see the bigger picture more clearly.

>

> I hope you feel better soon.

>

> x

>

[Guest guest]

so maybe that is why I am having so much difficulty as the oestrogen

has come back though the roof!

My prog. is high too which is confusing as I have heard of oestrogen

dominance and prog. dominance but not oestrogen AND progesterone

dimance.

Hey ho........

Mo

>

> Hi MO/MIRIAM, I beleve the oestrogen binds to the thyroid hormone,

this stops it working

> properly. this happened to me many years ago now when taking the

pill, which had very high oestrogen in them, my hair started to fall

out and I was very concerned at the time.

> it made me get a lot of brain fog and it took about 5 years to fill

a bit better. regards angel.

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Thanks , much appreciated.

> I have just posted my very confusing results as the result came

back

> quicker than expected.

> I have two lots of Oestrogel if you would like them

Wow! That was a surprise I bet! I wouldn't quite know what to make

of them. I assume they were saliva tests. Could you not ask your GP

to do some blood tests, which would be free, and compare?

I know it wouldn't be like for like and I know also that there is a

lot of controversy about which test is more reliable but I've read

equally good reports for both. Dr Vliet whose two books I

have read (Screaming to be Heard and It's my Ovaries, Stupid)

recommends blood tests as gold standard for sex hormones. I've also

read Lee who goes for saliva testing mostly, so " you pays your

money and takes your choice " !

I read about sex hormones til it was coming out of my ears and still

couldn't decide which way to jump!In the end I did the tests to give

me a general idea where I was at but went with my gut, paying

attention to my symptoms. But it's a hard one Mo. I hope you can

come up with an answer. And obviously, as your results show,

guessing isn't always helpful.

Thanks for your kind offer. Shall I pm you?

x

[Guest guest]

I spoke with my GP an hour ago (having call him in a bit of a panic

about this) and he will do the bloods on Tuesday.

Reassuring to hear that some people think the blood tests are fairly

reliable as I cannot afford these saliva tests all the time, wish I

could.

do you think the ratio thing is important?

and yes, do send me your address and I will send you the Oestrogel. I

opened one of them just to see what it was like, good as new

Mo

:

> >

> > Thanks , much appreciated.

> > I have just posted my very confusing results as the result came

> back

> > quicker than expected.

> > I have two lots of Oestrogel if you would like them

>

>

> Wow! That was a surprise I bet! I wouldn't quite know what to make

> of them. I assume they were saliva tests. Could you not ask your GP

> to do some blood tests, which would be free, and compare?

>

> I know it wouldn't be like for like and I know also that there is a

> lot of controversy about which test is more reliable but I've read

> equally good reports for both. Dr Vliet whose two books I

> have read (Screaming to be Heard and It's my Ovaries, Stupid)

> recommends blood tests as gold standard for sex hormones. I've also

> read Lee who goes for saliva testing mostly, so " you pays your

> money and takes your choice " !

>

> I read about sex hormones til it was coming out of my ears and

still

> couldn't decide which way to jump!In the end I did the tests to

give

> me a general idea where I was at but went with my gut, paying

> attention to my symptoms. But it's a hard one Mo. I hope you can

> come up with an answer. And obviously, as your results show,

> guessing isn't always helpful.

>

> Thanks for your kind offer. Shall I pm you?

>

> x

>

[Guest guest]

>

> I spoke with my GP an hour ago (having call him in a bit of a

panic

> about this) and he will do the bloods on Tuesday.

> Reassuring to hear that some people think the blood tests are

fairly

> reliable as I cannot afford these saliva tests all the time, wish

I

> could.

> do you think the ratio thing is important?

That's good news about getting your bloods done. It'll be an

interesting comparison. I've just been looking at my own tests again

and I see that there is a column for Ratio P/Oe, and my ratio's were

first 35.4(range 10-100) and then 13.1, so quite a difference. I'm

sure the ratio is important but I can't quite get my head around it

somehow, the maths defeat me! And there's precious little on the web.

I've already had a look in my Vliet books for anything worth

reporting but I'll have another scout and see if I can find anything

about the ratio. She has chapters on adrenals and thyroid as well.

Anything of interest I'll post.

x

[Guest guest]

Thanks , you're a gem!

I am lost with numbers as I am discalculiac probably from hypoT.

I have also just heard from another reliable source that the blood

test is fine for sex hormones.

I mayhave wasted my money on saliva after all. But yes, like you say,

it will be interesting to see the conparison.

Mo

>

>

> >

> > I spoke with my GP an hour ago (having call him in a bit of a

> panic

> > about this) and he will do the bloods on Tuesday.

> > Reassuring to hear that some people think the blood tests are

> fairly

> > reliable as I cannot afford these saliva tests all the time, wish

> I

> > could.

> > do you think the ratio thing is important?

>

>

> That's good news about getting your bloods done. It'll be an

> interesting comparison. I've just been looking at my own tests

again

> and I see that there is a column for Ratio P/Oe, and my ratio's

were

> first 35.4(range 10-100) and then 13.1, so quite a difference.

I'm

> sure the ratio is important but I can't quite get my head around it

> somehow, the maths defeat me! And there's precious little on the

web.

>

> I've already had a look in my Vliet books for anything worth

> reporting but I'll have another scout and see if I can find

anything

> about the ratio. She has chapters on adrenals and thyroid as well.

> Anything of interest I'll post.

>

> x

>

[Guest guest]

> I have also just heard from another reliable source that the blood

> test is fine for sex hormones.

> I mayhave wasted my money on saliva after all. But yes, like you

say

> it will be interesting to see the conparison.

I scanned through my 4 books (Vliet and Lee)last night and

unbelievably I could find nothing definitive on how to calculate

exact ratios between estrogen and progesterone at all. Plenty of

stuff about how the ratio should be balanced and correct but

nothing to tell you exactly how to work it out. Isn't that

ludicrous?

I'm going to have another look today in case I missed anything as

I'm very interested in this myself for my own situation. I did find

this below when I googled but I don't know how this can possibly tie

in with the ratio ranges I was given on my saliva tests.(I wasn't

given a ratio on the blood tests):

Hormone BALANCE: The relationship between progesterone and estrogen

can be described as a ration. The ratio of progesterone to estrogen

(as estradiol) can vary widely between women, but values above 200

are often associated with a beneficial balance. That means that

progesterone levels 200 times greater than estradiol are usually

preferred. At menopause this ratio often falls far below 200

http://www.thecompounder.com/hormonesurgicalmenopause.php

Anyway, it will be interesting to see your blood results and whether

in fact your levels are as high as you first thought. I'll be

looking out for when they come through. Great to share experiences.

We all learn that way.

x

[Guest guest]

So do we simply multiply the oestradial result by 200???

I have heard that the ratio should be 200-300:1.

I mean either of them (prog and oestrogen) being high or low seems to

be irrelevant in itself if we are talking about dominance of either

hormone.

Or is it? This is where I am lost.

Mo

> Hormone BALANCE: The relationship between progesterone and estrogen

> can be described as a ration. The ratio of progesterone to estrogen

> (as estradiol) can vary widely between women, but values above 200

> are often associated with a beneficial balance. That means that

> progesterone levels 200 times greater than estradiol are usually

> preferred. At menopause this ratio often falls far below 200

> http://www.thecompounder.com/hormonesurgicalmenopause.php

> x

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Mo,

> I am lost with numbers as I am discalculiac probably from hypoT.

I am also discalculiac. When I was at school I was always in the top 5 of my

year for

everything except maths. I used to cry doing my homework because I knew I was

not stupid

but I could not get even the simplest maths work right. I think I got 6% in my

mock GCE test.

Pin numbers are a pain and if I lost my mobile with all the numbers on I would

be devastated

because I can't even remember my son's home number.

I also get lost - even if I have written directions or a map. Dr P said getting

lost and number

dyslexia were due to long term HypoT.

B

[Guest guest]

My mother had this problem as well which makes me wonder if

she was hypoT too.

I was like you, doing very well in all subjects as a child until it

got to times tables. I could NOT for the life of me remember these.

And, unlike you, I did begin to wonder if I was stupid. Did nothing

for my self-esteem. It has plagued me all my life. I have failed job

interviews because of it. That was a job many moons ago with IBM.

There was one funny incident in this respect. I applied to Goldsmiths

College in London (as a mature student) to do a degree in psychology

and anthropology. An entrance exam was required and so I sat the

test. One paper was maths and I could not even understand the

questions, some of them. So what I did was 'cog' from the person

sitting next to me. When in extremis etc

Fine and well EXCEPT when I went for my interview the tutor informed

me that I had got most of my answers wrong on the maths paper

LOL...... That'll teach me!

She agreed to let me on the course on condition I did took extra

maths tuition at the same time outside of uni. Which I did and it

helped not one jot because their approach that that the student

was 'behind' in their maths learning and did not take into account

discalculia.

So I still find myself counting on fingers etc. Hey ho.....

Mo

>

> > I am lost with numbers as I am discalculiac probably from hypoT.

>

> I am also discalculiac. When I was at school I was always in the

top 5 of my year for

> everything except maths. I used to cry doing my homework because I

knew I was not stupid

> but I could not get even the simplest maths work right. I think I

got 6% in my mock GCE test.

>

> Pin numbers are a pain and if I lost my mobile with all the numbers

on I would be devastated

> because I can't even remember my son's home number.

>

> I also get lost - even if I have written directions or a map. Dr P

said getting lost and number

> dyslexia were due to long term HypoT.

>

> B

>

[Guest guest]

>

> So do we simply multiply the oestradial result by 200???

> I have heard that the ratio should be 200-300:1.

> I mean either of them (prog and oestrogen) being high or low seems

to

> be irrelevant in itself if we are talking about dominance of

either

> hormone.

> Or is it? This is where I am lost.

Were your test results measured in pg/mls Mo, like mine?

I now understand how my ratios were worked out. The progesterone

number was simply divided by the estrogen number and that answer had

to fall between 10-100 to be in the target ratio range. But that may

just be relevant to Genova labs, I don't know. My ratios were 13.1

and 35.4.

So in my case it doesn't seem as if muliplying by 200 would be the

answer! But I don't know what would be!! And I'm really not too sure

whether the numbers count as much as the ratio. It seems very daft

to me that so little is written about how to calculate what seems to

be such an important ratio. What I have seen are a lot of charts

listing symptoms of dominance either way. Seems we're meant to tell

from those where the problem lies.

And just to confuse the matter further on my two tests I fell in

the normal ratio range and yet on one test I showed high estrogen

and on the other high progesterone! Figure that one out!

It's enough to tax the brains of the brightest scholars, let alone

those of us struggling with hypo and adrenal fatigue and brain fog!!

x

[Guest guest]

Hi

Ratios are always calculated byt dividing the bigger number by the

smaller number. So if the prgesterone level is the larger, you would

divide that by the ostrogen number to get a number representive of

the amount of progesterone per single unit of oestrogen...

ie if progesterone is 200 and oestrogen is 2, 200/2 = 100 giving

aratio of progesterone to oestrogen of 100:1...

Explained better here:

http://www.childrensdefense.org/site/PageServer?

pagename=research_quick_data_ratio

Leah xx

>

>

> > I have also just heard from another reliable source that the

blood

> > test is fine for sex hormones.

> > I mayhave wasted my money on saliva after all. But yes, like you

> say

> > it will be interesting to see the conparison.

>

> I scanned through my 4 books (Vliet and Lee)last night and

> unbelievably I could find nothing definitive on how to calculate

> exact ratios between estrogen and progesterone at all. Plenty of

> stuff about how the ratio should be balanced and correct but

> nothing to tell you exactly how to work it out. Isn't that

> ludicrous?

>

> I'm going to have another look today in case I missed anything as

> I'm very interested in this myself for my own situation. I did find

> this below when I googled but I don't know how this can possibly

tie

> in with the ratio ranges I was given on my saliva tests.(I wasn't

> given a ratio on the blood tests):

>

> Hormone BALANCE: The relationship between progesterone and estrogen

> can be described as a ration. The ratio of progesterone to estrogen

> (as estradiol) can vary widely between women, but values above 200

> are often associated with a beneficial balance. That means that

> progesterone levels 200 times greater than estradiol are usually

> preferred. At menopause this ratio often falls far below 200

> http://www.thecompounder.com/hormonesurgicalmenopause.php

>

> Anyway, it will be interesting to see your blood results and

whether

> in fact your levels are as high as you first thought. I'll be

> looking out for when they come through. Great to share experiences.

> We all learn that way.

>

> x

>

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Ratios are always calculated byt dividing the bigger number by the

> smaller number. So if the prgesterone level is the larger, you

would

> divide that by the ostrogen number to get a number representive of

> the amount of progesterone per single unit of oestrogen...

Thanks Leah. Simple when you know how! :0)

x

[Guest guest]

pmol/L is what is written on the lab report , is that the same

as yours?

Your high oestrogen and progesterone WOULD be in the normal ratio

range as they are both high I suppose?

Mo

>

>

> Were your test results measured in pg/mls Mo, like mine?

>

> I now understand how my ratios were worked out. The progesterone

> number was simply divided by the estrogen number and that answer

had

> to fall between 10-100 to be in the target ratio range. But that

may

> just be relevant to Genova labs, I don't know. My ratios were 13.1

> and 35.4.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Lee, that's very welcome info.

So, as Dr Lee says the ratio should be 200-300:1, is the method

different for working this out?

Many thanks.

Mo

>

> Hi

>

> Ratios are always calculated byt dividing the bigger number by the

> smaller number. So if the prgesterone level is the larger, you

would

> divide that by the ostrogen number to get a number representive of

> the amount of progesterone per single unit of oestrogen...

>

> ie if progesterone is 200 and oestrogen is 2, 200/2 = 100 giving

> aratio of progesterone to oestrogen of 100:1...

>

> Explained better here:

>

> http://www.childrensdefense.org/site/PageServer?

> pagename=research_quick_data_ratio

>

> Leah xx

>

>

[Guest guest]

MODERATED TO REMOVE MESSAGES ALREADY READ: PLEASE TRY TO REMEMBER TO DELETE

THESE AND LEAVE JUST A LITTLE OF WHAT YOU ARE RESPONDING T BEFORE CLICKING SEND.

LUV - SHEILA

__________________________

My numbers are:

progesterone 263.6

and oestradiol 161.5

With Dr Lee's ideas on oestrogen dominance the ratio is

200-300:1.

Would any kind soul help me out to work out my ratio on the mid-

number of 250?

Many thanks in advance.

Mo

>

> Hi

>

> Ratios are always calculated byt dividing the bigger number by the

> smaller number. So if the prgesterone level is the larger, you

would

> divide that by the ostrogen number to get a number representive of

> the amount of progesterone per single unit of oestrogen...

>

> ie if progesterone is 200 and oestrogen is 2, 200/2 = 100 giving

> aratio of progesterone to oestrogen of 100:1...

>

> Explained better here:

>

> http://www.childrensdefense.org/site/PageServer?

> pagename=research_quick_data_ratio

>

> Leah xx

>

>

[Guest guest]

Is there any point in calculating this ratio when you have already

said that the figures from the saliva test were probably unreliable

because of the melatonin and other supplements that you were taking?

Will the hormonal blood test be affected by anything you are taking?

More to the point, will the GP and the lab be able to tell you of

anything that might distort the blood test results?

Dr Lee's ratio is used with the saliva test, so I'm not sure how valid

it would be to apply it to blood test results. They are not measuring

the same thing.

Miriam

> My numbers are:

> progesterone 263.6

> and oestradiol 161.5

>

> With Dr Lee's ideas on oestrogen dominance the ratio is

> 200-300:1. Would any kind soul help me out to work out my ratio on

the mid-number of 250?

> Many thanks in advance.

[Guest guest]

>

> pmol/L is what is written on the lab report , is that the

>same as yours?

> Your high oestrogen and progesterone WOULD be in the normal ratio

> range as they are both high I suppose?

No my test was in pg/mls. And the point I was making about the two

numbers was that although in one test progesterone was high and in

the other estrogen was high, both ratios on both tests were in the

normal range. In other words does it matter if one or the other

hormone is classed as high as long as the ratio is correct?

I'm still a bit befuddled by this Mo!

As for working your ratio out, if I do it as mine was done by Genova

(dividing the progesterone number by the estrogen number )then it

would come out as 1.632. Genova ref range is 10-100, so that would

say that something isn't right. BUT ranges are usually specific to

that particular lab so what I've just done may be totally

inapplicable to your results as they were done in a different lab

altogether.

And I still don't understand at all how the 200/300-1 ratio rule

applies to my saliva results. My latest labs are blood and I think

I'm going with them from now on. And I'm not high in either hormone

in those but that was pre estrogel.

Sorry I can't be more helpful Mo. In fact, I'm probably confusing

the issue stumbling along as I am. Hopefully it will get resolved as

time goes on. I must say that I'm intrigued now though as to what

your bloods will show.

x

[Guest guest]

Well I have emailed Genova and asked them to specify precisely how

high-dose melatonin would effect the results of sex hormones in a

saliva test. They do not say it raises them just that it could effect

them.

I have been sent some research stating that melatonin can block

oestrogen receptors and cause a build up in the blood but have not

seen anything yet to say this could happen with saliva. If melatonin

blocks oestrogen receptors then it would not get past that point to

get into the cells I am thinking and would not therefore raise tissue

levels.

I have asked Genova is high-dose melatonin would also be problematic

in blood testing and will report back when I hear from them.

Mo

>

> Is there any point in calculating this ratio when you have already

> said that the figures from the saliva test were probably unreliable

> because of the melatonin and other supplements that you were taking?

>

> Will the hormonal blood test be affected by anything you are

taking?

> More to the point, will the GP and the lab be able to tell you of

> anything that might distort the blood test results?

>

> Dr Lee's ratio is used with the saliva test, so I'm not sure how

valid

> it would be to apply it to blood test results. They are not

measuring

> the same thing.

>

> Miriam

>

> > My numbers are:

> > progesterone 263.6

> > and oestradiol 161.5

> >

> > With Dr Lee's ideas on oestrogen dominance the ratio is

> > 200-300:1. Would any kind soul help me out to work out my ratio

on

> the mid-number of 250?

> > Many thanks in advance.

>

[Guest guest]

You're a pet, thank you. My range for the oestrogen is <6 and that

probably is relevant though God knows in what way ))))))))

O misunderstood - hey what's new - what you were saying about the

prog and oestradiol both being high, I thought you meant in the same

test.

Yes I suppose it must not matter which is the highest as long as the

ratio is OK.

Oh yes I will think I am with you re going with the bloods in future,

a lot less complicated and free more to the point.

As to whether the GP can interpret them well well all I can say again

is - hey what's new ))))))))))

A roaring coal fire awaits on this chilly evening..... Hope youa re

all nice and snug tonight.

Mo

>

>

> >

> > pmol/L is what is written on the lab report , is that the

> >same as yours?

> > Your high oestrogen and progesterone WOULD be in the normal ratio

> > range as they are both high I suppose?

>

>

> No my test was in pg/mls. And the point I was making about the

two

> numbers was that although in one test progesterone was high and in

> the other estrogen was high, both ratios on both tests were in the

> normal range. In other words does it matter if one or the other

> hormone is classed as high as long as the ratio is correct?

>

> I'm still a bit befuddled by this Mo!

>

> As for working your ratio out, if I do it as mine was done by

Genova

> (dividing the progesterone number by the estrogen number )then it

> would come out as 1.632. Genova ref range is 10-100, so that would

> say that something isn't right. BUT ranges are usually specific to

> that particular lab so what I've just done may be totally

> inapplicable to your results as they were done in a different lab

> altogether.

>

> And I still don't understand at all how the 200/300-1 ratio rule

> applies to my saliva results. My latest labs are blood and I think

> I'm going with them from now on. And I'm not high in either hormone

> in those but that was pre estrogel.

>

> Sorry I can't be more helpful Mo. In fact, I'm probably confusing

> the issue stumbling along as I am. Hopefully it will get resolved

as

> time goes on. I must say that I'm intrigued now though as to what

> your bloods will show.

>

> x

>