Re: newbie question on fat ratios

[Guest guest]

Good luck in trying to find a clear answer. Just like dose makes the poison,

sat fats are bad in excess but I'm not sure I'd exclude them completely.

However I'm not aware of your personal situation wrt heart disease or BMI.

About the only fat I feel worthy of exclusion is trans-fats. IMO zero is the

acceptable intake for those.

If you are eating modest quantities of healthy whole foods you are probably

OK.

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: rwalkerad1970 [mailto:rwalkerad1970@...]

Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 11:56 AM

Subject: [ ] newbie question on fat ratios

Hi, have read through the archives to try and answer my question but

cannot find a clear answer (maybe there is not one) but I would at

least like to know what the long-terms think the answer is.

(

[Guest guest]

Hi RIchard,

As I understand it, fats in plaque in hearts are not related to that

in mouths. Careful randomized control and prospective studies

associate saturated and hydrogenated fats with heart disease. I am

surprised that the paper and the concluding sentence were allowed to

be published in such a highly respected journal, Lancet.

The long-chain fatty acids have been suggested to be risks of

becoming rancid in cell membranes.

Cheers, Al Pater

>

> Hi, have read through the archives to try and answer my question

but

> cannot find a clear answer (maybe there is not one) but I would at

> least like to know what the long-terms think the answer is.

>

> (Question 1)I eat around 2000 cals so have been calorie restricting

> without realising it (also very new to internet). After a family

> member died two years ago I cut my sat fats to virtually zero and

> increased my poly and mono to equal proportions (I do this by

eating

> low fat foods then adding flax oil, sunflower seed oil and olive

oil

> to my food for a mix of fats). But as I have read more on fats the

> poly fats seem to be getting a bad reputation (partially because

> some are hydrogenated and others can go rancid easily). Sat fats

are

> also supposed to be bad, so what fats are safe, should I go full

> mono with just a few grams of poly (omega 3 & 6), is that the

safest

> bet to avoid heart problems?

>

> (Question 2): In my search for an answer I saw the following pubmed

> abstract:

>

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=7934543

>

> and from checking the internet for comments on this study, it seems

> that sat fats only clog up something like 25 percent of all CHD

> patients hearts, while mono fat clogs a similar amount and poly

fats

> clog up to 50 percent of the heart. It did not matter what fats the

> person actually ate (based on tissue body fat). So my understanding

> of this study is that if you ate nothing but sat fats and monofats

> plus a few grams of poly which is essential then it would be

> impossible for your heart to get fully clogged up, is this

correct ?

> If not then can anyone explain this study, and does anybody know if

> the full paper is available on the internet.

>

> (Question 3) Due to double bonds etc sat fats are the toughest,

mono

> the second toughest and poly the weakest. But if this is the case

> doesnt the wear and tear going on inside the body turn poly sats

> rancid the quickest as they are the most fragile, and the opposite

> being true for sat fats, thats another area that confuses me. I

> would love their to be a doctor out there who could give me some

> definite answers to this question as my experience with the

internet

> so far is everybody thinks they are right, but they all say

> different things. I wish Dr. walford was still with as he might

have

> written a new book addressing my concerns(only learned three weeks

> go of his death).

>

> Thanks, have got walfords 120 year diet, but could not pin him down

> to a specific fat ratio or answer to these questions.

>

>

[Guest guest]

One study doesn't prove anything, and there is lots of bad science

with bad conclusions out there. Studies don't prove they attempt to

control a few variables to arrive at an approximation of the truth.

And they can be flat out wrong...

Chew on this :B

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=1973470

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=12091753

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=11108325

http://my.webmd.com/content/pages/1/3075_903

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=9863851

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=10174891

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/53/60634.htm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=11108325

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=4021011

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=7674504

>

> Hi, have read through the archives to try and answer my question but

> cannot find a clear answer (maybe there is not one) but I would at

> least like to know what the long-terms think the answer is.

>

> (Question 1)I eat around 2000 cals so have been calorie restricting

> without realising it (also very new to internet). After a family

> member died two years ago I cut my sat fats to virtually zero and

> increased my poly and mono to equal proportions (I do this by eating

> low fat foods then adding flax oil, sunflower seed oil and olive oil

> to my food for a mix of fats). But as I have read more on fats the

> poly fats seem to be getting a bad reputation (partially because

> some are hydrogenated and others can go rancid easily). Sat fats are

> also supposed to be bad, so what fats are safe, should I go full

> mono with just a few grams of poly (omega 3 & 6), is that the safest

> bet to avoid heart problems?

>

> (Question 2): In my search for an answer I saw the following pubmed

> abstract:

>

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=7934543

>

> and from checking the internet for comments on this study, it seems

> that sat fats only clog up something like 25 percent of all CHD

> patients hearts, while mono fat clogs a similar amount and poly fats

> clog up to 50 percent of the heart. It did not matter what fats the

> person actually ate (based on tissue body fat). So my understanding

> of this study is that if you ate nothing but sat fats and monofats

> plus a few grams of poly which is essential then it would be

> impossible for your heart to get fully clogged up, is this correct ?

> If not then can anyone explain this study, and does anybody know if

> the full paper is available on the internet.

>

> (Question 3) Due to double bonds etc sat fats are the toughest, mono

> the second toughest and poly the weakest. But if this is the case

> doesnt the wear and tear going on inside the body turn poly sats

> rancid the quickest as they are the most fragile, and the opposite

> being true for sat fats, thats another area that confuses me. I

> would love their to be a doctor out there who could give me some

> definite answers to this question as my experience with the internet

> so far is everybody thinks they are right, but they all say

> different things. I wish Dr. walford was still with as he might have

> written a new book addressing my concerns(only learned three weeks

> go of his death).

>

> Thanks, have got walfords 120 year diet, but could not pin him down

> to a specific fat ratio or answer to these questions.

>

>

[Guest guest]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=9444880

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=8829954

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=1729343

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/63/71972.htm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=1617762

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=10189324

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=7759696

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=14724371

> >

> > Hi, have read through the archives to try and answer my question but

> > cannot find a clear answer (maybe there is not one) but I would at

> > least like to know what the long-terms think the answer is.

> >

> > (Question 1)I eat around 2000 cals so have been calorie restricting

> > without realising it (also very new to internet). After a family

> > member died two years ago I cut my sat fats to virtually zero and

> > increased my poly and mono to equal proportions (I do this by eating

> > low fat foods then adding flax oil, sunflower seed oil and olive oil

> > to my food for a mix of fats). But as I have read more on fats the

> > poly fats seem to be getting a bad reputation (partially because

> > some are hydrogenated and others can go rancid easily). Sat fats are

> > also supposed to be bad, so what fats are safe, should I go full

> > mono with just a few grams of poly (omega 3 & 6), is that the safest

> > bet to avoid heart problems?

> >

> > (Question 2): In my search for an answer I saw the following pubmed

> > abstract:

> >

> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> > cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=7934543

> >

> > and from checking the internet for comments on this study, it seems

> > that sat fats only clog up something like 25 percent of all CHD

> > patients hearts, while mono fat clogs a similar amount and poly fats

> > clog up to 50 percent of the heart. It did not matter what fats the

> > person actually ate (based on tissue body fat). So my understanding

> > of this study is that if you ate nothing but sat fats and monofats

> > plus a few grams of poly which is essential then it would be

> > impossible for your heart to get fully clogged up, is this correct ?

> > If not then can anyone explain this study, and does anybody know if

> > the full paper is available on the internet.

> >

> > (Question 3) Due to double bonds etc sat fats are the toughest, mono

> > the second toughest and poly the weakest. But if this is the case

> > doesnt the wear and tear going on inside the body turn poly sats

> > rancid the quickest as they are the most fragile, and the opposite

> > being true for sat fats, thats another area that confuses me. I

> > would love their to be a doctor out there who could give me some

> > definite answers to this question as my experience with the internet

> > so far is everybody thinks they are right, but they all say

> > different things. I wish Dr. walford was still with as he might have

> > written a new book addressing my concerns(only learned three weeks

> > go of his death).

> >

> > Thanks, have got walfords 120 year diet, but could not pin him down

> > to a specific fat ratio or answer to these questions.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Thanks Al Pate, R and Freebird for answering my question. The

links by freebird were interesting but very frustrating, most of

them talked about intensive lifestyle changes reducing CHD risks

(exercise, low fat, vegetarian, stress reduction) especialy by a guy

called Ornish, but none of the studies examined the variables one at

a time. The ornish guy could have easily answered my question if he

had studied only saturated fat reduction or poly fat reduction on

CHD risk instead of all the other factrs. And I have heard of

studies where population (china) have low cholesterol and fat via

food but this increases their stroke rates big time.

After reading more articles though I think my question will be

answered eventaully as the felton study I originally referenced

would sugest a high sat and mono fat ration to a low poly ration may

actually be protective of the heart (as it was the poly fat that did

the damage), if this is true then all those people currently

following the Atkins diet should have lower CHD risks than none-

atkins people over the long term, so if those Atkins followers still

have healthy hearts over the next decade or so then that will prove

the felton study correct (but after saying that, it strikes me that

the atkins diet is so poor in fruit and veg that this may cause them

to die of CHD due to over-oxidization of any fat they eat, even if

it were low fat).

Until then it would seem prudent for me to split my 60g of daily fat

in favour of mono (60%) sats (20%) poly (20%). I am not in the CHD

zone age wise (mid thirties) but father died young (51 with heart

attack so am concerned over fat). Saying that though, father did

smoke and eat lots of fried foods and pastries/pies with trans fats

in, avoided fruit and veg, was stressed, plus was a few stones in

weight more than me, but he also had average " safe " cholesterol

levels according to his doctor).

thanks all

[Guest guest]

The IOM 2005 draft report recommended (as a percentage of calories):

<=10% saturated fat, 10% omega-6, 1.2% omega-3 and the rest as mono,

for a 30% total. If you put primary focus on meeting n-6/n-3, you

won't need to worry about saturated fat as you couldn't possibly eat

enough for the myristic acid to be hypercholesterolemic.

The n-6/n-3 suspectibility to oxidiation is why you should avoid

trans-fats and refined vegetable oils, instead focusing on raw nuts

and seeds, raw/low-cooked fatty fish, fish oils, and/or unrefined,

expeller-pressed vegetable oils.

Logan

>

> Hi, have read through the archives to try and answer my question

but

> cannot find a clear answer (maybe there is not one) but I would at

> least like to know what the long-terms think the answer is.

>

> (Question 1)I eat around 2000 cals so have been calorie restricting

> without realising it (also very new to internet). After a family

> member died two years ago I cut my sat fats to virtually zero and

> increased my poly and mono to equal proportions (I do this by

eating

> low fat foods then adding flax oil, sunflower seed oil and olive

oil

> to my food for a mix of fats). But as I have read more on fats the

> poly fats seem to be getting a bad reputation (partially because

> some are hydrogenated and others can go rancid easily). Sat fats

are

> also supposed to be bad, so what fats are safe, should I go full

> mono with just a few grams of poly (omega 3 & 6), is that the

safest

> bet to avoid heart problems?

>

> (Question 2): In my search for an answer I saw the following pubmed

> abstract:

>

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=7934543

>

> and from checking the internet for comments on this study, it seems

> that sat fats only clog up something like 25 percent of all CHD

> patients hearts, while mono fat clogs a similar amount and poly

fats

> clog up to 50 percent of the heart. It did not matter what fats the

> person actually ate (based on tissue body fat). So my understanding

> of this study is that if you ate nothing but sat fats and monofats

> plus a few grams of poly which is essential then it would be

> impossible for your heart to get fully clogged up, is this

correct ?

> If not then can anyone explain this study, and does anybody know if

> the full paper is available on the internet.

>

> (Question 3) Due to double bonds etc sat fats are the toughest,

mono

> the second toughest and poly the weakest. But if this is the case

> doesnt the wear and tear going on inside the body turn poly sats

> rancid the quickest as they are the most fragile, and the opposite

> being true for sat fats, thats another area that confuses me. I

> would love their to be a doctor out there who could give me some

> definite answers to this question as my experience with the

internet

> so far is everybody thinks they are right, but they all say

> different things. I wish Dr. walford was still with as he might

have

> written a new book addressing my concerns(only learned three weeks

> go of his death).

>

> Thanks, have got walfords 120 year diet, but could not pin him down

> to a specific fat ratio or answer to these questions.

>

>

[Guest guest]

: Ornish is probably the world's leading authority on this subject.

It sounds like you've never heard of him which is pretty surprising. He is

not only revered in scientific circles but is well known in general for

reversing heart disease without surgery. He has appeared on tv, has written

lay type articles and is well known among the common man as well. I

wouldn't dismiss him so lightly if I were you.

on 10/7/2004 5:30 AM, rwalkerad1970 at rwalkerad1970@... wrote:

> especialy by a guy

> called Ornish, but none of the studies examined the variables one at

> a time. The ornish guy could have easily answered my question if he

> had studied only saturated fat reduction or poly fat reduction on

> CHD risk instead of all the other factrs. And I have heard of

> studies where population (china) have low cholesterol and fat via

> food but this increases their stroke rates big time.

>

[Guest guest]

" Interesting " ?? Is this all you got from these?

You can conjecture and experiment all you want on the basis of one

obscure study (Felton) and ognore all the evidence to contrary. If

that's your choice so be it. ME, I am going with the collective

evidence --LOW FAT of any type (supplemented w/few grams fish oil),

LOW PROTEIN, HIGH COMPLEX CARBS (and of course LOW CALS). This and

this alone has been shown to give best chance of working. Designing a

diet from the results of one small obscure study (abstract!) is not

where I want to be. Good Luck :B

>

> Thanks Al Pate, R and Freebird for answering my question. The

> links by freebird were interesting but very frustrating, most of

> them talked about intensive lifestyle changes reducing CHD risks

> (exercise, low fat, vegetarian, stress reduction) especialy by a guy

> called Ornish, but none of the studies examined the variables one at

> a time. The ornish guy could have easily answered my question if he

> had studied only saturated fat reduction or poly fat reduction on

> CHD risk instead of all the other factrs. And I have heard of

> studies where population (china) have low cholesterol and fat via

> food but this increases their stroke rates big time.

>

> After reading more articles though I think my question will be

> answered eventaully as the felton study I originally referenced

> would sugest a high sat and mono fat ration to a low poly ration may

> actually be protective of the heart (as it was the poly fat that did

> the damage), if this is true then all those people currently

> following the Atkins diet should have lower CHD risks than none-

> atkins people over the long term, so if those Atkins followers still

> have healthy hearts over the next decade or so then that will prove

> the felton study correct (but after saying that, it strikes me that

> the atkins diet is so poor in fruit and veg that this may cause them

> to die of CHD due to over-oxidization of any fat they eat, even if

> it were low fat).

>

> Until then it would seem prudent for me to split my 60g of daily fat

> in favour of mono (60%) sats (20%) poly (20%). I am not in the CHD

> zone age wise (mid thirties) but father died young (51 with heart

> attack so am concerned over fat). Saying that though, father did

> smoke and eat lots of fried foods and pastries/pies with trans fats

> in, avoided fruit and veg, was stressed, plus was a few stones in

> weight more than me, but he also had average " safe " cholesterol

> levels according to his doctor).

>

> thanks all

>

>

[Guest guest]

There was a recent discussion on the issues of Fat, SFA, Cholesterol recently

which included a recent response from Dr Castelli himself to one of our

listmembers which was posted here on his current take on the whole issue.

it was very enlightening if you care to look into the archives.

[Guest guest]

Interesting. I would like to see your evidence that this works to

regress atherosclerosis in the form of pre/post angiograms or smthg

equally as evidentiary. Please post!

> >

> > Hi, have read through the archives to try and answer my question

> but

> > cannot find a clear answer (maybe there is not one) but I would at

> > least like to know what the long-terms think the answer is.

> >

> > (Question 1)I eat around 2000 cals so have been calorie restricting

> > without realising it (also very new to internet). After a family

> > member died two years ago I cut my sat fats to virtually zero and

> > increased my poly and mono to equal proportions (I do this by

> eating

> > low fat foods then adding flax oil, sunflower seed oil and olive

> oil

> > to my food for a mix of fats). But as I have read more on fats the

> > poly fats seem to be getting a bad reputation (partially because

> > some are hydrogenated and others can go rancid easily). Sat fats

> are

> > also supposed to be bad, so what fats are safe, should I go full

> > mono with just a few grams of poly (omega 3 & 6), is that the

> safest

> > bet to avoid heart problems?

> >

> > (Question 2): In my search for an answer I saw the following pubmed

> > abstract:

> >

> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> > cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=7934543

> >

> > and from checking the internet for comments on this study, it seems

> > that sat fats only clog up something like 25 percent of all CHD

> > patients hearts, while mono fat clogs a similar amount and poly

> fats

> > clog up to 50 percent of the heart. It did not matter what fats the

> > person actually ate (based on tissue body fat). So my understanding

> > of this study is that if you ate nothing but sat fats and monofats

> > plus a few grams of poly which is essential then it would be

> > impossible for your heart to get fully clogged up, is this

> correct ?

> > If not then can anyone explain this study, and does anybody know if

> > the full paper is available on the internet.

> >

> > (Question 3) Due to double bonds etc sat fats are the toughest,

> mono

> > the second toughest and poly the weakest. But if this is the case

> > doesnt the wear and tear going on inside the body turn poly sats

> > rancid the quickest as they are the most fragile, and the opposite

> > being true for sat fats, thats another area that confuses me. I

> > would love their to be a doctor out there who could give me some

> > definite answers to this question as my experience with the

> internet

> > so far is everybody thinks they are right, but they all say

> > different things. I wish Dr. walford was still with as he might

> have

> > written a new book addressing my concerns(only learned three weeks

> > go of his death).

> >

> > Thanks, have got walfords 120 year diet, but could not pin him down

> > to a specific fat ratio or answer to these questions.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi :

I very much agree with Francesca on this. Ask yourself, who among

all these researchers has demonstrated REVERSAL of heart disease

among their patients? Who has taken patients looking for a second

opinion, who were about to have quadruple bypass surgery and reversed

their heart disease without invasive procedures?

IMO you should pay MUCH more attention to them than all the abstruse,

theoretical, test-tube validated types of 'evidence'. (They may

eventually be proved right. But many of them we will never be

hearing from again). Pay attention, also to the Nurses' Health

Study - probably THE best, largest, longest running serious

epidemiological study of all time. Its results have caused me (a

male) to come to conclusions quite different from yours. Try

reading 'Healthy Women Healthy Lives' - by Willett, one of the

principal investigators of the Nurses' Health Study.

Good luck. We iz all over 21 here (or at least most of us!)

Rodney.

> >

> > Hi, have read through the archives to try and answer my question

> but

> > cannot find a clear answer (maybe there is not one) but I would

at

> > least like to know what the long-terms think the answer is.

> >

> > (Question 1)I eat around 2000 cals so have been calorie

restricting

> > without realising it (also very new to internet). After a family

> > member died two years ago I cut my sat fats to virtually zero and

> > increased my poly and mono to equal proportions (I do this by

> eating

> > low fat foods then adding flax oil, sunflower seed oil and olive

> oil

> > to my food for a mix of fats). But as I have read more on fats

the

> > poly fats seem to be getting a bad reputation (partially because

> > some are hydrogenated and others can go rancid easily). Sat fats

> are

> > also supposed to be bad, so what fats are safe, should I go full

> > mono with just a few grams of poly (omega 3 & 6), is that the

> safest

> > bet to avoid heart problems?

> >

> > (Question 2): In my search for an answer I saw the following

pubmed

> > abstract:

> >

> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> > cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=7934543

> >

> > and from checking the internet for comments on this study, it

seems

> > that sat fats only clog up something like 25 percent of all CHD

> > patients hearts, while mono fat clogs a similar amount and poly

> fats

> > clog up to 50 percent of the heart. It did not matter what fats

the

> > person actually ate (based on tissue body fat). So my

understanding

> > of this study is that if you ate nothing but sat fats and

monofats

> > plus a few grams of poly which is essential then it would be

> > impossible for your heart to get fully clogged up, is this

> correct ?

> > If not then can anyone explain this study, and does anybody know

if

> > the full paper is available on the internet.

> >

> > (Question 3) Due to double bonds etc sat fats are the toughest,

> mono

> > the second toughest and poly the weakest. But if this is the

case

> > doesnt the wear and tear going on inside the body turn poly sats

> > rancid the quickest as they are the most fragile, and the

opposite

> > being true for sat fats, thats another area that confuses me. I

> > would love their to be a doctor out there who could give me some

> > definite answers to this question as my experience with the

> internet

> > so far is everybody thinks they are right, but they all say

> > different things. I wish Dr. walford was still with as he might

> have

> > written a new book addressing my concerns(only learned three

weeks

> > go of his death).

> >

> > Thanks, have got walfords 120 year diet, but could not pin him

down

> > to a specific fat ratio or answer to these questions.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I looked back i couldn't find anything by Dr Castelli.

> There was a recent discussion on the issues of Fat, SFA, Cholesterol

recently which included a recent response from Dr Castelli himself to

one of our listmembers which was posted here on his current take on

the whole issue.

>

> it was very enlightening if you care to look into the archives.

[Guest guest]

Hi Freebird:

Well it is there. I know because I posted it.

Rodney.

>

> I looked back i couldn't find anything by Dr Castelli.

>

> --- In , " Jeff Novick " <jnovick@p...>

wrote:

> > There was a recent discussion on the issues of Fat, SFA,

Cholesterol

> recently which included a recent response from Dr Castelli himself

to

> one of our listmembers which was posted here on his current take on

> the whole issue.

> >

> > it was very enlightening if you care to look into the archives.

[Guest guest]

Rodney, do you have a link to this study (not the book). Thanks.

> > >

> > > Hi, have read through the archives to try and answer my question

> > but

> > > cannot find a clear answer (maybe there is not one) but I would

> at

> > > least like to know what the long-terms think the answer is.

> > >

> > > (Question 1)I eat around 2000 cals so have been calorie

> restricting

> > > without realising it (also very new to internet). After a family

> > > member died two years ago I cut my sat fats to virtually zero and

> > > increased my poly and mono to equal proportions (I do this by

> > eating

> > > low fat foods then adding flax oil, sunflower seed oil and olive

> > oil

> > > to my food for a mix of fats). But as I have read more on fats

> the

> > > poly fats seem to be getting a bad reputation (partially because

> > > some are hydrogenated and others can go rancid easily). Sat fats

> > are

> > > also supposed to be bad, so what fats are safe, should I go full

> > > mono with just a few grams of poly (omega 3 & 6), is that the

> > safest

> > > bet to avoid heart problems?

> > >

> > > (Question 2): In my search for an answer I saw the following

> pubmed

> > > abstract:

> > >

> > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> > > cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=7934543

> > >

> > > and from checking the internet for comments on this study, it

> seems

> > > that sat fats only clog up something like 25 percent of all CHD

> > > patients hearts, while mono fat clogs a similar amount and poly

> > fats

> > > clog up to 50 percent of the heart. It did not matter what fats

> the

> > > person actually ate (based on tissue body fat). So my

> understanding

> > > of this study is that if you ate nothing but sat fats and

> monofats

> > > plus a few grams of poly which is essential then it would be

> > > impossible for your heart to get fully clogged up, is this

> > correct ?

> > > If not then can anyone explain this study, and does anybody know

> if

> > > the full paper is available on the internet.

> > >

> > > (Question 3) Due to double bonds etc sat fats are the toughest,

> > mono

> > > the second toughest and poly the weakest. But if this is the

> case

> > > doesnt the wear and tear going on inside the body turn poly sats

> > > rancid the quickest as they are the most fragile, and the

> opposite

> > > being true for sat fats, thats another area that confuses me. I

> > > would love their to be a doctor out there who could give me some

> > > definite answers to this question as my experience with the

> > internet

> > > so far is everybody thinks they are right, but they all say

> > > different things. I wish Dr. walford was still with as he might

> > have

> > > written a new book addressing my concerns(only learned three

> weeks

> > > go of his death).

> > >

> > > Thanks, have got walfords 120 year diet, but could not pin him

> down

> > > to a specific fat ratio or answer to these questions.

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Freebird:

There are at least hundreds, perhaps thousands, of studies that have

been published based on the data that is coming out of the Nurses'

Health Study. You could find many of them by searching Pubmed

for 'Willett'. But it would be easier, for a start, to read the book.

Rodney.

> > > >

> > > > Hi, have read through the archives to try and answer my

question

> > > but

> > > > cannot find a clear answer (maybe there is not one) but I

would

> > at

> > > > least like to know what the long-terms think the answer is.

> > > >

> > > > (Question 1)I eat around 2000 cals so have been calorie

> > restricting

> > > > without realising it (also very new to internet). After a

family

> > > > member died two years ago I cut my sat fats to virtually zero

and

> > > > increased my poly and mono to equal proportions (I do this by

> > > eating

> > > > low fat foods then adding flax oil, sunflower seed oil and

olive

> > > oil

> > > > to my food for a mix of fats). But as I have read more on

fats

> > the

> > > > poly fats seem to be getting a bad reputation (partially

because

> > > > some are hydrogenated and others can go rancid easily). Sat

fats

> > > are

> > > > also supposed to be bad, so what fats are safe, should I go

full

> > > > mono with just a few grams of poly (omega 3 & 6), is that the

> > > safest

> > > > bet to avoid heart problems?

> > > >

> > > > (Question 2): In my search for an answer I saw the following

> > pubmed

> > > > abstract:

> > > >

> > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> > > > cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=7934543

> > > >

> > > > and from checking the internet for comments on this study, it

> > seems

> > > > that sat fats only clog up something like 25 percent of all

CHD

> > > > patients hearts, while mono fat clogs a similar amount and

poly

> > > fats

> > > > clog up to 50 percent of the heart. It did not matter what

fats

> > the

> > > > person actually ate (based on tissue body fat). So my

> > understanding

> > > > of this study is that if you ate nothing but sat fats and

> > monofats

> > > > plus a few grams of poly which is essential then it would be

> > > > impossible for your heart to get fully clogged up, is this

> > > correct ?

> > > > If not then can anyone explain this study, and does anybody

know

> > if

> > > > the full paper is available on the internet.

> > > >

> > > > (Question 3) Due to double bonds etc sat fats are the

toughest,

> > > mono

> > > > the second toughest and poly the weakest. But if this is the

> > case

> > > > doesnt the wear and tear going on inside the body turn poly

sats

> > > > rancid the quickest as they are the most fragile, and the

> > opposite

> > > > being true for sat fats, thats another area that confuses

me. I

> > > > would love their to be a doctor out there who could give me

some

> > > > definite answers to this question as my experience with the

> > > internet

> > > > so far is everybody thinks they are right, but they all say

> > > > different things. I wish Dr. walford was still with as he

might

> > > have

> > > > written a new book addressing my concerns(only learned three

> > weeks

> > > > go of his death).

> > > >

> > > > Thanks, have got walfords 120 year diet, but could not pin

him

> > down

> > > > to a specific fat ratio or answer to these questions.

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

You should check the references in Ornish's book also. 18 pages going back about 100 yrs.

Heart disease develops a lot earlier than you might think.

Atkins is a weight loss diet.

Ornish is an approved therapeutic diet.

surely there must be a tiny value at least in thinking that a diet to reduce arterial buildup will also help prevent it.

It isn't that we don't know how to prevent it, it's just we're too stupid to do it.

Maybe you'll get lucky.

Stroke rates are increased at age, like 80yo because they got there.

----- Original Message -----

From: rwalkerad1970

Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 4:30 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: newbie question on fat ratios

Thanks Al Pate, R and Freebird for answering my question. The links by freebird were interesting but very frustrating, most of them talked about intensive lifestyle changes reducing CHD risks (exercise, low fat, vegetarian, stress reduction) especialy by a guy called Ornish, but none of the studies examined the variables one at a time. The ornish guy could have easily answered my question if he had studied only saturated fat reduction or poly fat reduction on CHD risk instead of all the other factrs. And I have heard of studies where population (china) have low cholesterol and fat via food but this increases their stroke rates big time. After reading more articles though I think my question will be answered eventaully as the felton study I originally referenced would sugest a high sat and mono fat ration to a low poly ration may actually be protective of the heart (as it was the poly fat that did the damage), if this is true then all those people currently following the Atkins diet should have lower CHD risks than none-atkins people over the long term, so if those Atkins followers still have healthy hearts over the next decade or so then that will prove the felton study correct (but after saying that, it strikes me that the atkins diet is so poor in fruit and veg that this may cause them to die of CHD due to over-oxidization of any fat they eat, even if it were low fat).Until then it would seem prudent for me to split my 60g of daily fat in favour of mono (60%) sats (20%) poly (20%). I am not in the CHD zone age wise (mid thirties) but father died young (51 with heart attack so am concerned over fat). Saying that though, father did smoke and eat lots of fried foods and pastries/pies with trans fats in, avoided fruit and veg, was stressed, plus was a few stones in weight more than me, but he also had average "safe" cholesterol levels according to his doctor).thanks all

[Guest guest]

Not to disagree. The preponderance of evidence is used as an argument but not a good one. Sometimes we only have ONE good article that covers what we actually want. That one is "chaffed" by a thousand others confusing the real issue.

What I do is look for patterns, piece together the philosophies of various writers. The conclusions I come to are a truer picture, IMO.

But Ornish did the job right to put together a thesis for us that combines many years of doctor's practice, studies, and then he conducted a test. A test that showed that reduction of plaque in the coronaries was possible.

There is a constant drone of the atkins experience as if that had some bearing on heart disease. Atkins is weight loss for the morbidly obese, and the ones I've seen do it are satisfied to get down to 225-250#. Not near low enough.

And then we have the ratio arguments. We don't really know how much ALA is required. The documents that put forth recs are still guesses, like the IOM. A good guess, maybe, but still a guess.

I still like the Nurses study which showed 11 gms LA and 2 gms ALA. That is gotten with 1 tbsp of soy oil (just an example - I get it in veggies/nuts). I've used that guideline for 4 years and it seems to be enough. I mean how can I know the effects of ALA on lifespan?

Can someone show me the exact amount for my weight of ALA in a biochem process? NO.

In fact the ALA metabolism to EPA is not in the latest biochemistry texts (check amazon). I think that's an important part of the puzzle.

You will find it on websites and there are articles that seem to show the EPA/DHA pathway is important - but not important enough to put into textbooks.

The AA pathway is there and we are sure that LA is essential by human tests. But now I have a large question how much ALA is required. Not to worry, I can't reduce ALA alone to zero anyway. It's in veggies, beef, nuts. And I have a feeling it's actually in a lot of foods for which the data is not in USDA database.

Bottom line, with so many unknowns how can anyone establish a ratio?

Just my take.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: freebird5005

Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 8:00 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: newbie question on fat ratios

"Interesting"?? Is this all you got from these? You can conjecture and experiment all you want on the basis of oneobscure study (Felton) and ognore all the evidence to contrary. Ifthat's your choice so be it. ME, I am going with the collectiveevidence --LOW FAT of any type (supplemented w/few grams fish oil),LOW PROTEIN, HIGH COMPLEX CARBS (and of course LOW CALS). This andthis alone has been shown to give best chance of working. Designing adiet from the results of one small obscure study (abstract!) is notwhere I want to be. Good Luck :B> > Thanks Al Pate, R and Freebird for answering my question. The > links by freebird were interesting but very frustrating, most of > them talked about intensive lifestyle changes reducing CHD risks > (exercise, low fat, vegetarian, stress reduction) especialy by a guy > called Ornish, but none of the studies examined the variables one at > a time. The ornish guy could have easily answered my question if he > had studied only saturated fat reduction or poly fat reduction on > CHD risk instead of all the other factrs. And I have heard of > studies where population (china) have low cholesterol and fat via > food but this increases their stroke rates big time. > > After reading more articles though I think my question will be > answered eventaully as the felton study I originally referenced > would sugest a high sat and mono fat ration to a low poly ration may > actually be protective of the heart (as it was the poly fat that did > the damage), if this is true then all those people currently > following the Atkins diet should have lower CHD risks than none-> atkins people over the long term, so if those Atkins followers still > have healthy hearts over the next decade or so then that will prove > the felton study correct (but after saying that, it strikes me that > the atkins diet is so poor in fruit and veg that this may cause them > to die of CHD due to over-oxidization of any fat they eat, even if > it were low fat).> > Until then it would seem prudent for me to split my 60g of daily fat > in favour of mono (60%) sats (20%) poly (20%). I am not in the CHD > zone age wise (mid thirties) but father died young (51 with heart > attack so am concerned over fat). Saying that though, father did > smoke and eat lots of fried foods and pastries/pies with trans fats > in, avoided fruit and veg, was stressed, plus was a few stones in > weight more than me, but he also had average "safe" cholesterol > levels according to his doctor).> > thanks all> >

[Guest guest]

Ornish???

You posted it yesterday - the first in your list of links, as I recall.

The IOM has been ref'd many times.

look around books.nap.edu.

----- Original Message -----

From: freebird5005

Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 8:42 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: newbie question on fat ratios

Rodney, do you have a link to this study (not the book). Thanks.> > > > The IOM 2005 draft report recommended (as a percentage of > calories): > > <=10% saturated fat, 10% omega-6, 1.2% omega-3 and the rest as > mono, > > for a 30% total. If you put primary focus on meeting n-6/n-3, you > > won't need to worry about saturated fat as you couldn't possibly > eat > > enough for the myristic acid to be hypercholesterolemic.> > > > The n-6/n-3 suspectibility to oxidiation is why you should avoid > > trans-fats and refined vegetable oils, instead focusing on raw nuts > > and seeds, raw/low-cooked fatty fish, fish oils, and/or unrefined, > > expeller-pressed vegetable oils.> > > > Logan

[Guest guest]

try at:

http://books.nap.edu/books/0309085373/html/55.html#pagetop

----- Original Message -----

From: freebird5005

Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 8:42 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: newbie question on fat ratios

Rodney, do you have a link to this study (not the book). Thanks.> > > > The IOM 2005 draft report recommended (as a percentage of > calories): > > <=10% saturated fat, 10% omega-6, 1.2% omega-3 and the rest as > mono, > > for a 30% total. If you put primary focus on meeting n-6/n-3, you > > won't need to worry about saturated fat as you couldn't possibly > eat > > enough for the myristic acid to be hypercholesterolemic.> > > > The n-6/n-3 suspectibility to oxidiation is why you should avoid > > trans-fats and refined vegetable oils, instead focusing on raw nuts > > and seeds, raw/low-cooked fatty fish, fish oils, and/or unrefined, > > expeller-pressed vegetable oils.> > > > Logan

[Guest guest]

or search the book

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0804110387/qid=1097159793/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/103-7609527-9296629?v=glance & s=books & n=507846

----- Original Message -----

From: Rodney

Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 8:48 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: newbie question on fat ratios

Hi Freebird:There are at least hundreds, perhaps thousands, of studies that have been published based on the data that is coming out of the Nurses' Health Study. You could find many of them by searching Pubmed for 'Willett'. But it would be easier, for a start, to read the book.Rodney.

[Guest guest]

" : Ornish is probably the world's leading authority on this

subject. It sounds like you've never heard of him which is pretty

surprising. "

> I did not mean to be disrespectful to Ornish, I honestly

had never heard of him, I just checked some links posted in reply to

my message. He obviously has importance to this group based on your

replies. (I don't live in America, so have only had access to a few

library books from American doctors.)

After seeing your replies I checked a few random months in the

archives to see which of those posters have been in the group the

longest and JWRIGHT, AL PATER and FRANSESCA are some names that stand

out over the last couple of years, would you both and any others be

willing to say what percentage of calories you have as fat and what

is the break down of fats (omega3, omega6, mono, and saturated), I am

especially interested in hearing from people aged 50 plus as I see

that as an age when CHD really starts to show. And could you also

mention your percentage of calories as protein. This would be very

helpful to me.

The reason I got hung up on the felton study was that it seemed to

answer my question based on simple logic (poly fats clog up around

50% of the hearts of CHD patents)so they must logically be the most

dangerous fats. That kind of reasoning meant I could avaoid having to

put faith in any one doctor or collection of doctors who may mislead

me due to my ignorance in the area of nutritional science/health etc.

But as a number of people have come out strongly in favour of DR.

Ornish then it would seem that he is most likely correct (due to the

fact that some of you posting must be above 50, are following his

guidlines and are still alive and free from heart problems I presume.

When I say I am new to the internet I really mean that, my previous

reading has been Dr.Walfords last book and a much earlier book about

calorie restriction I read sometimes in the early 1990s. And what I

picked up from television/news about eating a low fat, low protein,

high carb diet being best and Dr.Walford seemed to fit nicely with

that view point.

So at the moment and for the last decade I have been eating low fat,

high carb (wholegrains of course), low protein. But as I get older I

thought I would have another look at the area of calorie restriction

and nutrition as I recently gained internet access. And fats was one

area I looked into, but at this point only from the perspective of

what clogs the heart, rather than the type of studies done by Dean

Ornish etc. Have heard of the nurses health study, but not looked

into this yet.

But my biggest concern as I head into my later thirties is that I do

not do something stupid now that will cause a problem fifteen to

twenty years from now. So I don't want to cut anything out (sat

fats, poly or even mono) and then suddenly get a nasty surprise when

I hit 55 years of age as with Bill Clinton etc.

many thanks for all the replies

[Guest guest]

>>suddenly get a nasty surprise when I hit 55 years of age as with Bill

Clinton etc.

This was no surprise to anyone who knew him and his lifestyle. One of

junk food, fast food and excess weight.

[Guest guest]

The preponderance of evidence is just that.. superiority in weight...

and it's a very good " one " . One shouldn't displace a body of knowledge

culled from many investigations with one single dissenting article.

takes time and effort to flush out the truth and create good models.

On the other hand, one good study can provide insight for further

investigation which may eventually lead to a " revolution " , a change in

paradigm (or it may not as is usually the case).

Ornish didn't just show reversal of coronary disease BUT he showed

reversal of coronary disease with ONLY ONE SPECIFIC PROTOCOL! No one

else has demonstrated this (please correct me if I am wrong). His

protocol gets the job done (or at least gives one the best chance to

date of getting the job done) Everything else is pure spec!

You may place great stock in culling the diverse philosophies of

various writers, and there is some profit in that, but I want to see

proof in the pudding... OBJECTIVE PRE/POST " X-RAYS " .. THIS is the GOLD

STANDARD!!

Have a great day! :B

> >

> > Thanks Al Pate, R and Freebird for answering my question. The

> > links by freebird were interesting but very frustrating, most of

> > them talked about intensive lifestyle changes reducing CHD risks

> > (exercise, low fat, vegetarian, stress reduction) especialy by a

guy

> > called Ornish, but none of the studies examined the variables

one at

> > a time. The ornish guy could have easily answered my question if he

> > had studied only saturated fat reduction or poly fat reduction on

> > CHD risk instead of all the other factrs. And I have heard of

> > studies where population (china) have low cholesterol and fat via

> > food but this increases their stroke rates big time.

> >

> > After reading more articles though I think my question will be

> > answered eventaully as the felton study I originally referenced

> > would sugest a high sat and mono fat ration to a low poly ration

may

> > actually be protective of the heart (as it was the poly fat that

did

> > the damage), if this is true then all those people currently

> > following the Atkins diet should have lower CHD risks than none-

> > atkins people over the long term, so if those Atkins followers

still

> > have healthy hearts over the next decade or so then that will prove

> > the felton study correct (but after saying that, it strikes me that

> > the atkins diet is so poor in fruit and veg that this may cause

them

> > to die of CHD due to over-oxidization of any fat they eat, even if

> > it were low fat).

> >

> > Until then it would seem prudent for me to split my 60g of daily

fat

> > in favour of mono (60%) sats (20%) poly (20%). I am not in the CHD

> > zone age wise (mid thirties) but father died young (51 with heart

> > attack so am concerned over fat). Saying that though, father did

> > smoke and eat lots of fried foods and pastries/pies with trans fats

> > in, avoided fruit and veg, was stressed, plus was a few stones in

> > weight more than me, but he also had average " safe " cholesterol

> > levels according to his doctor).

> >

> > thanks all

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Are you saying that you are keeping your TOTAL FAT intake to 10% or

less of total cals and that of that 10% you now wish to know what

optimum ratio of each fat??

>

> " : Ornish is probably the world's leading authority on this

> subject. It sounds like you've never heard of him which is pretty

> surprising. "

>

> > I did not mean to be disrespectful to Ornish, I honestly

> had never heard of him, I just checked some links posted in reply to

> my message. He obviously has importance to this group based on your

> replies. (I don't live in America, so have only had access to a few

> library books from American doctors.)

>

> After seeing your replies I checked a few random months in the

> archives to see which of those posters have been in the group the

> longest and JWRIGHT, AL PATER and FRANSESCA are some names that stand

> out over the last couple of years, would you both and any others be

> willing to say what percentage of calories you have as fat and what

> is the break down of fats (omega3, omega6, mono, and saturated), I am

> especially interested in hearing from people aged 50 plus as I see

> that as an age when CHD really starts to show. And could you also

> mention your percentage of calories as protein. This would be very

> helpful to me.

>

>

> The reason I got hung up on the felton study was that it seemed to

> answer my question based on simple logic (poly fats clog up around

> 50% of the hearts of CHD patents)so they must logically be the most

> dangerous fats. That kind of reasoning meant I could avaoid having to

> put faith in any one doctor or collection of doctors who may mislead

> me due to my ignorance in the area of nutritional science/health etc.

> But as a number of people have come out strongly in favour of DR.

> Ornish then it would seem that he is most likely correct (due to the

> fact that some of you posting must be above 50, are following his

> guidlines and are still alive and free from heart problems I presume.

>

> When I say I am new to the internet I really mean that, my previous

> reading has been Dr.Walfords last book and a much earlier book about

> calorie restriction I read sometimes in the early 1990s. And what I

> picked up from television/news about eating a low fat, low protein,

> high carb diet being best and Dr.Walford seemed to fit nicely with

> that view point.

>

> So at the moment and for the last decade I have been eating low fat,

> high carb (wholegrains of course), low protein. But as I get older I

> thought I would have another look at the area of calorie restriction

> and nutrition as I recently gained internet access. And fats was one

> area I looked into, but at this point only from the perspective of

> what clogs the heart, rather than the type of studies done by Dean

> Ornish etc. Have heard of the nurses health study, but not looked

> into this yet.

>

> But my biggest concern as I head into my later thirties is that I do

> not do something stupid now that will cause a problem fifteen to

> twenty years from now. So I don't want to cut anything out (sat

> fats, poly or even mono) and then suddenly get a nasty surprise when

> I hit 55 years of age as with Bill Clinton etc.

>

>

> many thanks for all the replies

[Guest guest]

Hi Freebird:

My IMPRESSION is that Pritikin demonstrated coronary disease reversal

long before Ornish was in diapers (nappies if you are from over the

pond). My impression is, because of the similarities of many of

Ornish's methods, that he learnt much of what he knows from Pritikin.

Not to denigrate Ornish. Almost all of science, and absolutely all

of nutrition/health science, is a gradual progression of refinement,

gradually getting a little bit closer to the real truth. Ornish has

contributed a lot.

Rodney.

>

> Ornish didn't just show reversal of coronary disease BUT he showed

> reversal of coronary disease with ONLY ONE SPECIFIC PROTOCOL! No one

> else has demonstrated this (please correct me if I am wrong