Re: Digest Number 242 , food+water

[Guest guest]

shouldn't we stockpile the food and water locally, not individually ?

When the panflu comes, then the supplies are immediately delivered/sold

to the individuals/families in the village/district/town.

This way they can also better plan to recycle unused supplies

before they expire and sell them normally - maybe at reduced prices

because their expiration is smaller.

[Guest guest]

In einer eMail vom 01.02.2006 07:18:32 Westeuropäische Normalzeit schreibt lynn@...:

This would be a great idea, but how will you get the community to pay attention to this. Most people in my experience are still in denial or la la land. I am going to prepare for our family no matter what the community does or does not do.

Lynn

--------------------------------

if you're from USA then you can refer them to the governemnt call for

stockpiling food and water.

And, if you pay for it, why should they refuse ? They needn't store food and water

for those, who don't want to. But I guess, they will become curious

at least...

You spare all the organisation and selection costs. It will be centrally decided

what to store and how much and prices will be better because of large orders.

Hmm, it can also be privately organized. Just make a public announcement

about this in your community. Rent a depot-room or store-house (for large

communities), negotiate about buying food,water,medication,masks,etc.

in bulk and how to return them later, if unused. Share the costs.

Guenter.

[Guest guest]

In einer eMail vom 01.02.2006 07:39:35 Westeuropäische Normalzeit schreibt niteflytes@...:

I agree Lynn. Besides, it won't be a good idea to go out any more than necessary. Stockpiling at home means we can stay home longer.

Cat~

---------------------------

you can get your entire shared amount delivered from the local store-house,

when the pandemic starts in Asia but _before_ the pandemic is in your town.

[Guest guest]

This would be a great idea, but how will you get the community to pay attention to this. Most people in my experience are still in denial or la la land. I am going to prepare for our family no matter what the community does or does not do.

Lynn

Re: [Flu] Re: Digest Number 242 , food+water

shouldn't we stockpile the food and water locally, not individually ?

When the panflu comes, then the supplies are immediately delivered/sold

to the individuals/families in the village/district/town.

This way they can also better plan to recycle unused supplies

before they expire and sell them normally - maybe at reduced prices

because their expiration is smaller.

[Guest guest]

I agree Lynn. Besides, it won't be a good idea to go out any more than necessary. Stockpiling at home means we can stay home longer.

Cat~www.niteflytes.us

Re: [Flu] Re: Digest Number 242 , food+water

shouldn't we stockpile the food and water locally, not individually ?

When the panflu comes, then the supplies are immediately delivered/sold

to the individuals/families in the village/district/town.

This way they can also better plan to recycle unused supplies

before they expire and sell them normally - maybe at reduced prices

because their expiration is smaller.

[Guest guest]

you register and pay in advance for your shared ratio.

You can specify if you have special wishes. You will still not get

everything, individual stockpiles will supplement the basics, as you suggested.

those who haven't registered and paid will get what was left on credit.

They can later earn money by filling the positions of expected missing workers.

Central depots can be easier protected against looters than individual depots.

Delivering delays should be manageable. You can even deliver when the pandemic has started. Just professionally protect the drivers with suits and masks, desinfect

the goods and vehicles and drivers. That makes it more expensive, though.

Delivery costs would be smaller than the sum of all individual shopping costs

and time loss.

Guenter.

[Guest guest]

That might work in an idealistic society, that might even work in a

small community setting. However, my primary residence is in a large

urban county with a high population density. This is complicated

further by the fact that there is a high level of diversity of socio-

economic levels and diverse ethnicities and language issues.

Most people are living pay check to pay check where " normal "

emergencies can have a debilitating effect on their lives ... an

appliance breaks, the car needs repairs, their paycheck is less than

normal due to their illness or the illness of a family member,

insurance takes a jump in cost, etc.

Unless everyone in the community agrees to set their own money aside

for such a pandemic situation or pays into the program in advance you

are going to have people that do not/cannot participate. Non-

participation might not even be directly related to finances, but to

the " it can't happen to me " syndrome or other factors such as

government mistrust.

Then you also have the diverse needs of families. Not every family

shops the same. There are ethnic preferences and special dietary

needs. There are some that just don't know how to cook with the type

of bulk commodities that would have to be stored in such a situation.

Then what about the elderly with special needs and the homeless

population. How do you factor those two groups in?

And then of course you have the government overhead that would be

incurred in trying to warehouse such large quantities. In the end it

would be more expensive to buy from the community stockpile than it

would have been to have stockpiled on your own in advance.

This doesn't even begin to cover the issues of how would a

government/community work out the program so that it is equitable for

ALL of the socio-economic factors of the citizenry participating.

And I believe that you would still have people that stockpiled on their

own because they simply would not have the confidence in the

government's/community's ability to actually get such an astronomical

undertaking done.

Just my two cents.

Kathy in FL

>

> shouldn't we stockpile the food and water locally, not individually ?

> When the panflu comes, then the supplies are immediately

delivered/sold

> to the individuals/families in the village/district/town.

> This way they can also better plan to recycle unused supplies

> before they expire and sell them normally - maybe at reduced prices

> because their expiration is smaller.

>

[Guest guest]

But even if you original scenario works you have the issue of people

NOT saving their stockpile however it gets delivered. You will have

people who use it to supplement their current larder and grocery

needs just out of economic necessity. And you never know how long

the lapse time is going to be between where ever the virus is found

to be human-to-human transmittable and when/if it gets to your

community.

And you are back to the issue that in a community of any size you are

going to have delivery issues and time delays ... by which time the

infection could be spreading into the community without specific

knowledge of its arrival.

Delivery costs will also tack on expenses that you wouldn't otherwise

incur if you are stockpiling your own supplies, especially if you

make your stockpiling activites part of your normal grocery shopping

routine.

Kathy in FL

>

>

> In einer eMail vom 01.02.2006 07:39:35 Westeuropäische Normalzeit

schreibt

> niteflytes@g...:

>

> I agree Lynn. Besides, it won't be a good idea to go out any more

than

> necessary. Stockpiling at home means we can stay home longer.

>

> Cat~

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------

>

> you can get your entire shared amount delivered from the local

store-house,

> when the pandemic starts in Asia but _before_ the pandemic is in

your town.

>

[Guest guest]

The other issue that hasn't been covered in your scenario is the

actual safety of the large stockpile. As I mentioned in another

post, I'm in a large urban area. We have areas of town that could

blow up with riots over something like this. " Normal " crime in this

area is high ... a known stockpile location would just be a target

for the lowlifes. And I'm not being cynical out of spite ... every

year at Christmas time there are those individuals that rip off the

stock piles of toys that are set aside for charities, that hold up

charities that are gathering money for the less fortunate, etc. In a

potentially explosive situation like the pandemic flu outbreak we are

talking about where a significant number of law enforcement and other

first responders can be taken out of their work force the likelihood

of such individuals taking advantage of the situation is only greater.

Just my opinion.

Kathy in FL

>

>

> In einer eMail vom 01.02.2006 07:39:35 Westeuropäische Normalzeit

schreibt

> niteflytes@g...:

>

> I agree Lynn. Besides, it won't be a good idea to go out any more

than

> necessary. Stockpiling at home means we can stay home longer.

>

> Cat~

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------

>

> you can get your entire shared amount delivered from the local

store-house,

> when the pandemic starts in Asia but _before_ the pandemic is in

your town.

>

[Guest guest]

Sounds reasonable but I still foresee significant problems in larger

communities. Again, before I ramble on here, I agree that this might

work in smaller, close-knit communities. I wouldn't even be

commenting on it if I didn't think there was value in the idea. But

given that a large portion of the US population is actually centered

in large urban centers even applying this type of program nationwide

in the smaller communities, you'll miss a significant portion of

citizens and such a situation would still lead to spill over into the

smaller communities who had protected themselves with their own

stockpiles.

First problem I see right off the top of my head is that unless you

privatize this, which would lead to some " have nots, " you are likely

to encounter the governmental/socialized system inefficiencies.

I'm in Florida and have seen the results of major, weather-related

disasters hitting our state on a fairly reliable frequency. No

matter how often these incidencies occur you still have the same

situations and problems occuring right along with them every single

time. Last year when Florida had 4 or 5 hurricanes hit our state it

was the same thing each storm. People were unprepared or said it was

impossible for them to prepare for one reason or another. It doesn't

matter that government at all levels of our state, as well as private

groups warn people practical all year long, every year, for as long

as I can remember (I'm 39) with sound and practical advice. There

are still people that just can't, or more often don't or won't,

prepare. Even those that have suffered hurricane-related problems

sometimes still don't prepare and when they are hit a second, third,

or however many " th " time still get that deer-in-the-headlights look

and say " I just didn't think it could happen again. "

Another problem that stands out in my mind is that in our county of

the state alone we have a significant portion of the population on

some type of assistance program. If they don't already have to work

to receive such assistance ... not being snotty, I just mean that

they receive the assistance without issue of repayment ... then the

likelihood of some lawyer or politician getting involved to say that

there is no way for them to participate in such a community stockpile

or that there are other issues preventing them from repayment options

then you will then have a system where some people pay so that other

people do not have to. We are back to the question of equitability.

And as I said before we have also have a large elderly population

living on fixed incomes and a significant homeless population.

Arranging for these groups to participate/pay into/work-off the

benefits of stockpile membership will be highly problematical. Also

among the homeless (and not homeless) are the sub-populations such as

those either too physically ill or dealing with a mental illness,

that will make it problematical for them to pay-into/work-off their

membership in the stockpile. You also have the current populations

that are already the responsibility of the community such as prisons

and state hospitals that will create conflicts with such a stockpile

system in the area of equitability.

And, unless you mandate participation, you are going to have people

refuse to participate for those reasons alone. The people refusing

to participate are probably going to be the ones that can afford to

participate and " carry the load " for the ones who cannot pay

upfront. Whether those people are then more likely to put that money

into their own private stockpile I can't say.

You will also have a group of people that point out what if the

people that can't pay upfront, receive the benefit of the " free "

stockpiles, then refuse to pay back (either through cash or

employment) their portion ... or they are in the casualty portion of

a potential pandemic. This too will make people re-think their

willing participation in such as program. Even if a person might be

willing to pay upfront, and in essence foot the bill for someone else

who can't right away, they will probably be less likely to

participate if they think that there will be folks who will never

repay their own portion. I can tell you in my state the likelihood

of such a law being passed is practically nil.

I personally think that while it is a nice idea and humane and

altruistic ... it would IMHO never make it past the planning stages

in any existing organization. Even those currently existing

organizations most suited (not necessarily best suited I'll admit)

for dealing with such a catastrophic event have not undertaken such a

program. And yeah, I'm being cynical at this point. Look at what

happened in the Gulf Coast from hurricane Katrina.

And assuming you could actually get participation in the program

mandated, what kind of teeth would you give such a law and where

would the initial funding come from? In most states you can't attach

this sort of thing to property taxes due to limitations of the

existing law ... and you would also have the fact that renters and

other non real estate owning individuals would then not be paying

into the stockpile fund yet would benefit from it.

You could tax something else ... but again, you would then create an

issue where some of the people were paying for most of the people

instead of a more equitable payment plan like you mentioned.

You could privatize it, but such a group could then create

exclusionary groups which would defeat the purpose of it being

a " community " stockpile. It would then become the private property

of the private group's membership.

Again, it might be my cynicism and experience from living in a

hurricane prone state showing, but individual preparation is always

going to trump other types of preparation.

Kathy in FL

>

>

> you register and pay in advance for your shared ratio.

> You can specify if you have special wishes. You will still not get

> everything, individual stockpiles will supplement the basics, as

you

> suggested.

>

> those who haven't registered and paid will get what was left on

credit.

> They can later earn money by filling the positions of expected

missing

> workers.

>

> Central depots can be easier protected against looters than

individual

> depots.

>

> Delivering delays should be manageable. You can even deliver when

the

> pandemic has started. Just professionally protect the drivers with

suits and masks,

> desinfect

> the goods and vehicles and drivers. That makes it more expensive,

though.

>

> Delivery costs would be smaller than the sum of all individual

shopping costs

> and time loss.

>

> Guenter.

>

[Guest guest]

In einer eMail vom 03.02.2006 06:46:20 Westeuropäische Normalzeit schreibt rboylern@...:

Something as straightforward and uncomplicated as you suggest would never work in a country like the US. The whole world watched as our various government agencies fell all over themselves and each other since nobody knew what they were doing, even though all the resources were available to help people both before and after Hurricane Katrina.

------------------------

just because you have these experiences, it should work better in US

than in most other countries.

[Guest guest]

BTW. I created a new forum and copied some of the food+water posts there:

http://www.setbb.com/fluwiki2/viewtopic.php?t=19 & mforum=fluwiki2

feel free to copy other posts or continue discussion there.

[Guest guest]

Something as straightforward and uncomplicated as you suggest would never work in a country like the US. The whole world watched as our various government agencies fell all over themselves and each other since nobody knew what they were doing, even though all the resources were available to help people both before and after Hurricane Katrina.sterten@... wrote: you register and pay in advance for your shared ratio. You can specify if you have special wishes. You will still not get everything, individual stockpiles will supplement the basics, as you suggested. those who haven't registered and paid will get what was left on credit. They can

later earn money by filling the positions of expected missing workers. Central depots can be easier protected against looters than individual depots. Delivering delays should be manageable. You can even deliver when the pandemic has started. Just professionally protect the drivers with suits and masks, desinfect the goods and vehicles and drivers. That makes it more expensive, though. Delivery costs would be smaller than the sum of all individual shopping costs and time loss. Guenter. . Never place a period where God has placed a comma. - Gracie . Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. -Dr.Seuss . It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. - Duke Ellington

[Guest guest]

I'm allowing my cynism to show here, but in my experience, people

rarely learn from their mistakes. If they did we wouldn't have so

much repeat history. <sigh>

Kathy in FL

>

>

> In einer eMail vom 03.02.2006 06:46:20 Westeuropäische Normalzeit

schreibt

> rboylern@...:

>

> Something as straightforward and uncomplicated as you suggest

would never

> work in a country like the US. The whole world watched as our

various

> government agencies fell all over themselves and each other since

nobody knew what

> they were doing, even though all the resources were available to

help people

> both before and after Hurricane Katrina.

>

>

>

> ------------------------

>

> just because you have these experiences, it should work better in US

> than in most other countries.

>

[Guest guest]

You're right, theoretically speaking. The problem seems to be that there's nobody who's really in charge of things and there's dreadfully poor communication among the various agencies that would be called into "high gear" service should that be needed. The system looks good on paper, but in practice it often turns out to be quite the opposite.sterten@... wrote: In einer eMail vom 03.02.2006 06:46:20 Westeuropäische Normalzeit schreibt rboylern@...: Something as straightforward and uncomplicated as you suggest would never work in a country like the US. The whole world watched

as our various government agencies fell all over themselves and each other since nobody knew what they were doing, even though all the resources were available to help people both before and after Hurricane Katrina. ------------------------ just because you have these experiences, it should work better in US than in most other countries. . Never place a period where God has placed a comma. - Gracie . Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

-Dr.Seuss . It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. - Duke Ellington