Guest guest Posted April 1, 2003 Report Share Posted April 1, 2003 Hey Joe. No offense but their are 1000's of people who want but have absolutely no access to raw milk. Any raw milk is better than no raw milk as long as you can personally evaluate the source. ANY raw milk sold in stores will have met significant safety requirements. Yes grass fed is best, but a cow who is on dry hay and a little grain ain't so bad either. If a farmer won't drink his own milk, that is a good indicator of its quality and the workmanship of the product. if the farm is an eye sore than the milk may be of the same quality, but not always. Joe wrote: > Like a lot of people here I drink raw milk. But I was talking to a > farmer this weekend and she expressed her concern that Sally Fallon > and others equate raw to good, and it is not that simple. There are > many factors to consider. I think this could be a problem especially > for some newbies looking to get into raw. I think there is some > really bad raw milk out there. > > I currently get raw milk from a biodynamic farm, but I would like > some input from people about what they consider to be good raw milk. > Here are some of my thoughts > > 1) Diet. Should consist mostly of grass in the summer. In the > winter should consist mostly of hay. Other acceptable feed? Dry > leaves, kelp, etc... Hay should be properly cut and stored. I think > the " summer butter " thing is a myth. I have seen winter butter that > is just bright yellow/orange as any summer butter. If hay is done > properly I think it can contain just as much nutrients as the fresh > grass. > > 2) Sanitation. Hand milking is best obviously, but if equipment is > used proper sanitation must be ensured. Certain chemicals used to > clean I would think we would want avoided. I am not a dairy man, I > don't know what proper equipment sanitaiton would involve. > > 3) Lifestyle. cows should not be stressed. should not be forced to > over produce. should not be given hormones. should not be getting > sick and needing antibiotics. should be getting plenty of sunshine > and fresh air. Even in winter, a barn must be bright and have fresh > air. Cows should not be de-horned. Cows should live as close to a > natural lifestyle as possible, whatever than involves. Calfs should > be raised on mother's milk. > > 4) Breeds. Jersey, old dairy breeds produce better milk > > These types of things will ensure milk is not just raw but have > maximum nutritional benefit. questions that can be asked to farmers > when looking for raw dairy. > > Appreciate any input > > thanks, Joe > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2003 Report Share Posted April 1, 2003 I can't imagine there are so many people with " no access to raw milk " I have had raw milk and other dairy shipped from several farms around the country. If you have an address, you have access to raw dairy. There is a wide variety available out there from people who will ship all sorts of raw dairy products. I could name 20 farms shipping raw cheese off the top of my head just in New England. Some ship milk, some ship butter. Then there are the Amish. Then there are the " pet use " suppliers. And this is not to mention the fact that many of us have small farms within driving distance who are willing to supply raw cow or goat milk under the table. Most of us do not get raw milk from a store with regulation in force. the cause of healthy native populations was not just the fact they ate raw but it was the incomperable *HUSBANDRY* practices that resulted in the most nutritionaly dense food. That is the lesson to lean from Price. there is a wide variety and many options available to people who want to consume raw dairy, and many questions that should be asked to farmers. Consumers should not let farmers off the hook on something of this importance. We should let them know this is what we want, and if you don't share the same philosophy I will look somewhere else. > > > Like a lot of people here I drink raw milk. But I was talking to a > > farmer this weekend and she expressed her concern that Sally Fallon > > and others equate raw to good, and it is not that simple. There are > > many factors to consider. I think this could be a problem especially > > for some newbies looking to get into raw. I think there is some > > really bad raw milk out there. > > > > I currently get raw milk from a biodynamic farm, but I would like > > some input from people about what they consider to be good raw milk. > > Here are some of my thoughts > > > > 1) Diet. Should consist mostly of grass in the summer. In the > > winter should consist mostly of hay. Other acceptable feed? Dry > > leaves, kelp, etc... Hay should be properly cut and stored. I think > > the " summer butter " thing is a myth. I have seen winter butter that > > is just bright yellow/orange as any summer butter. If hay is done > > properly I think it can contain just as much nutrients as the fresh > > grass. > > > > 2) Sanitation. Hand milking is best obviously, but if equipment is > > used proper sanitation must be ensured. Certain chemicals used to > > clean I would think we would want avoided. I am not a dairy man, I > > don't know what proper equipment sanitaiton would involve. > > > > 3) Lifestyle. cows should not be stressed. should not be forced to > > over produce. should not be given hormones. should not be getting > > sick and needing antibiotics. should be getting plenty of sunshine > > and fresh air. Even in winter, a barn must be bright and have fresh > > air. Cows should not be de-horned. Cows should live as close to a > > natural lifestyle as possible, whatever than involves. Calfs should > > be raised on mother's milk. > > > > 4) Breeds. Jersey, old dairy breeds produce better milk > > > > These types of things will ensure milk is not just raw but have > > maximum nutritional benefit. questions that can be asked to farmers > > when looking for raw dairy. > > > > Appreciate any input > > > > thanks, Joe > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2003 Report Share Posted April 1, 2003 Joe, There is 'bad' raw milk out there but its a whole lot better than pasteurized, homogenized milk. Those 2 processing techniques make a good thing bad and a bad thing worse. I agree that the diet of a cow should be mostly grass in the summer along with limited of amounts of grain such as corn, barley, oats or other non-grain items such as wheat midds or citrus pulp. Dry leaves would be alright except for the fact there is very little nutrient value and it would make much better bedding than feed. ON the other hand cows love green leaves(of maple trees, anyway). Hay can have a very high nutrient value and in many cases can be just as good as the green grass. Other winter feed sources would be haylage (lacto-fermented hay). I wonder about the summer butter thing as well. I made some butter from our milk earlier this spring before the cows were getting any grass at all and it came out deep yellow to almost orange. I had never seen butter this deep before even on grass. My only guess is that since the milk came from fresh cows it had a higher nutrient value. It wasn't colostrum but it wasn't too far away either. Back when Dr. Price did his studies I doubt farmers were feeding vitamins to their cattle in the winter. Hence the lowered amounts of Vit A in the wintertime. Nowadays vitamins are fed during the winter. Contrary to popular opinion there are good quality vitamins out there for cattle. I also disagree with Sally about the feeding of soy to cattle in the winter. IMO if it is fed on a limited basis it is not going to destry their livers. We have fed soy for years in the winter and to my knowledge have never had any bad livers on cows that we have processed for our own meat. I am opposed to soy on the basis that it is mostly GMO, highly sprayed (unless organic) and very expensive. We avoid the use of it if at all possible. If we were legally allowed to direct market milk in land than we would probably consider dropping the grain altogether as long as we could be guaranteed a higher price. But as it stands, good husbandry practices must meet the demands of the cow both on energy and protein. And if that can't be met with green grass, hay or haylage then something has to fill the void. Hand milking may be best (debatable) but it is far from practical. Milking one cow by hand is no picnic, milking 100 is next to impossible.. Most farms use chlorine and acid to sanitize. Here at our farm we use Shaklee's Basic H and D to wash milkers and pipeline. Occasionally we use chlorine and acid if we have any problems. Dehorning cattle started as a safety issue. If you have ever been or know anyone who has been gored or almost gored by a horn you would probably agree that dehorning is not that big of a deal. We have a couple cows which were never dehorned and while they don't usually bother us I would not want a whole herd like that. Jersey's may have been a traditional breed 50 years ago but now they are almost similar to the modern holstein except they are smaller. I know of several jersey herds producing just as much milk as neighboring holstein herds. There are older style jersey's out there, you just got to look a little harder to find them. Most likely most jersey's still produce higher quality milk than holsteins but to me its not that big of deal. Just one insiders view point, danny Creek Bend Dairy Farm Harry & Peggy Strite 11917 Snug Harbor Lane port, MD 21795 301-582-4135 cbdfarm@... Like a lot of people here I drink raw milk. But I was talking to a farmer this weekend and she expressed her concern that Sally Fallon and others equate raw to good, and it is not that simple. There are many factors to consider. I think this could be a problem especially for some newbies looking to get into raw. I think there is some really bad raw milk out there. I currently get raw milk from a biodynamic farm, but I would like some input from people about what they consider to be good raw milk. Here are some of my thoughts 1) Diet. Should consist mostly of grass in the summer. In the winter should consist mostly of hay. Other acceptable feed? Dry leaves, kelp, etc... Hay should be properly cut and stored. I think the " summer butter " thing is a myth. I have seen winter butter that is just bright yellow/orange as any summer butter. If hay is done properly I think it can contain just as much nutrients as the fresh grass. 2) Sanitation. Hand milking is best obviously, but if equipment is used proper sanitation must be ensured. Certain chemicals used to clean I would think we would want avoided. I am not a dairy man, I don't know what proper equipment sanitaiton would involve. 3) Lifestyle. cows should not be stressed. should not be forced to over produce. should not be given hormones. should not be getting sick and needing antibiotics. should be getting plenty of sunshine and fresh air. Even in winter, a barn must be bright and have fresh air. Cows should not be de-horned. Cows should live as close to a natural lifestyle as possible, whatever than involves. Calfs should be raised on mother's milk. 4) Breeds. Jersey, old dairy breeds produce better milk These types of things will ensure milk is not just raw but have maximum nutritional benefit. questions that can be asked to farmers when looking for raw dairy. Appreciate any input thanks, Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2003 Report Share Posted April 1, 2003 I found this all interesting because the raw milk we get is from a family that has one milking cow. The use a machine to milk and clean it with a small amount of chlorine in a large bucket of hot water. I'm not really thrilled about this, but they do a hot water rinse of the tubing before they milk and then do the chlorine rinse after. Also, I found out this last time we milked for them that their hay sometimes gets slightly moldy and they still feed it to the cow (they are real tightwads and don't want to spend money on a good shed for the hay and don't want to throw out hay if she'll eat it). I wondered if this has a bad effect on the milk quality, but as long as it smells good and fresh we drink it. Sometimes the milk gets a real strong alfalfa taste, and then their is nothing that can be done to make it taste better, it's just nasty and we dump it and go get more...free. Michele ----- Original Message ----- From: Creek Bend Dairy Farm Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 10:05 AM Subject: Re: Raw Milk Concerns Joe, There is 'bad' raw milk out there but its a whole lot better than pasteurized, homogenized milk. Those 2 processing techniques make a good thing bad and a bad thing worse. I agree that the diet of a cow should be mostly grass in the summer along with limited of amounts of grain such as corn, barley, oats or other non-grain items such as wheat midds or citrus pulp. Dry leaves would be alright except for the fact there is very little nutrient value and it would make much better bedding than feed. ON the other hand cows love green leaves(of maple trees, anyway). Hay can have a very high nutrient value and in many cases can be just as good as the green grass. Other winter feed sources would be haylage (lacto-fermented hay). I wonder about the summer butter thing as well. I made some butter from our milk earlier this spring before the cows were getting any grass at all and it came out deep yellow to almost orange. I had never seen butter this deep before even on grass. My only guess is that since the milk came from fresh cows it had a higher nutrient value. It wasn't colostrum but it wasn't too far away either. Back when Dr. Price did his studies I doubt farmers were feeding vitamins to their cattle in the winter. Hence the lowered amounts of Vit A in the wintertime. Nowadays vitamins are fed during the winter. Contrary to popular opinion there are good quality vitamins out there for cattle. I also disagree with Sally about the feeding of soy to cattle in the winter. IMO if it is fed on a limited basis it is not going to destry their livers. We have fed soy for years in the winter and to my knowledge have never had any bad livers on cows that we have processed for our own meat. I am opposed to soy on the basis that it is mostly GMO, highly sprayed (unless organic) and very expensive. We avoid the use of it if at all possible. If we were legally allowed to direct market milk in land than we would probably consider dropping the grain altogether as long as we could be guaranteed a higher price. But as it stands, good husbandry practices must meet the demands of the cow both on energy and protein. And if that can't be met with green grass, hay or haylage then something has to fill the void. Hand milking may be best (debatable) but it is far from practical. Milking one cow by hand is no picnic, milking 100 is next to impossible.. Most farms use chlorine and acid to sanitize. Here at our farm we use Shaklee's Basic H and D to wash milkers and pipeline. Occasionally we use chlorine and acid if we have any problems. Dehorning cattle started as a safety issue. If you have ever been or know anyone who has been gored or almost gored by a horn you would probably agree that dehorning is not that big of a deal. We have a couple cows which were never dehorned and while they don't usually bother us I would not want a whole herd like that. Jersey's may have been a traditional breed 50 years ago but now they are almost similar to the modern holstein except they are smaller. I know of several jersey herds producing just as much milk as neighboring holstein herds. There are older style jersey's out there, you just got to look a little harder to find them. Most likely most jersey's still produce higher quality milk than holsteins but to me its not that big of deal. Just one insiders view point, danny Creek Bend Dairy Farm Harry & Peggy Strite 11917 Snug Harbor Lane port, MD 21795 301-582-4135 cbdfarm@... Like a lot of people here I drink raw milk. But I was talking to a farmer this weekend and she expressed her concern that Sally Fallon and others equate raw to good, and it is not that simple. There are many factors to consider. I think this could be a problem especially for some newbies looking to get into raw. I think there is some really bad raw milk out there. I currently get raw milk from a biodynamic farm, but I would like some input from people about what they consider to be good raw milk. Here are some of my thoughts 1) Diet. Should consist mostly of grass in the summer. In the winter should consist mostly of hay. Other acceptable feed? Dry leaves, kelp, etc... Hay should be properly cut and stored. I think the " summer butter " thing is a myth. I have seen winter butter that is just bright yellow/orange as any summer butter. If hay is done properly I think it can contain just as much nutrients as the fresh grass. 2) Sanitation. Hand milking is best obviously, but if equipment is used proper sanitation must be ensured. Certain chemicals used to clean I would think we would want avoided. I am not a dairy man, I don't know what proper equipment sanitaiton would involve. 3) Lifestyle. cows should not be stressed. should not be forced to over produce. should not be given hormones. should not be getting sick and needing antibiotics. should be getting plenty of sunshine and fresh air. Even in winter, a barn must be bright and have fresh air. Cows should not be de-horned. Cows should live as close to a natural lifestyle as possible, whatever than involves. Calfs should be raised on mother's milk. 4) Breeds. Jersey, old dairy breeds produce better milk These types of things will ensure milk is not just raw but have maximum nutritional benefit. questions that can be asked to farmers when looking for raw dairy. Appreciate any input thanks, Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2003 Report Share Posted April 1, 2003 I have never heard of a dairy that ships raw milk out of state. Who does that? What does it cost? Will they ship to the west, to say Arizona? Irene At 09:28 AM 4/1/03, you wrote: >I can't imagine there are so many people with " no access to raw >milk " I have had raw milk and other dairy shipped from several farms >around the country. If you have an address, you have access to raw >dairy. There is a wide variety available out there from people who >will ship all sorts of raw dairy products. I could name 20 farms >shipping raw cheese off the top of my head just in New England. Some >ship milk, some ship butter. Then there are the Amish. Then there >are the " pet use " suppliers. And this is not to mention the fact >that many of us have small farms within driving distance who are >willing to supply raw cow or goat milk under the table. Most of us >do not get raw milk from a store with regulation in force. > >the cause of healthy native populations was not just the fact they >ate raw but it was the incomperable *HUSBANDRY* practices that >resulted in the most nutritionaly dense food. That is the lesson to >lean from Price. > >there is a wide variety and many options available to people who want >to consume raw dairy, and many questions that should be asked to >farmers. Consumers should not let farmers off the hook on something >of this importance. We should let them know this is what we want, and >if you don't share the same philosophy I will look somewhere else. > > > > > > > Like a lot of people here I drink raw milk. But I was talking >to a > > > farmer this weekend and she expressed her concern that Sally >Fallon > > > and others equate raw to good, and it is not that simple. There >are > > > many factors to consider. I think this could be a problem >especially > > > for some newbies looking to get into raw. I think there is some > > > really bad raw milk out there. > > > > > > I currently get raw milk from a biodynamic farm, but I would like > > > some input from people about what they consider to be good raw >milk. > > > Here are some of my thoughts > > > > > > 1) Diet. Should consist mostly of grass in the summer. In the > > > winter should consist mostly of hay. Other acceptable feed? Dry > > > leaves, kelp, etc... Hay should be properly cut and stored. I >think > > > the " summer butter " thing is a myth. I have seen winter butter >that > > > is just bright yellow/orange as any summer butter. If hay is done > > > properly I think it can contain just as much nutrients as the >fresh > > > grass. > > > > > > 2) Sanitation. Hand milking is best obviously, but if equipment >is > > > used proper sanitation must be ensured. Certain chemicals used to > > > clean I would think we would want avoided. I am not a dairy man, >I > > > don't know what proper equipment sanitaiton would involve. > > > > > > 3) Lifestyle. cows should not be stressed. should not be forced >to > > > over produce. should not be given hormones. should not be getting > > > sick and needing antibiotics. should be getting plenty of sunshine > > > and fresh air. Even in winter, a barn must be bright and have >fresh > > > air. Cows should not be de-horned. Cows should live as close to >a > > > natural lifestyle as possible, whatever than involves. Calfs >should > > > be raised on mother's milk. > > > > > > 4) Breeds. Jersey, old dairy breeds produce better milk > > > > > > These types of things will ensure milk is not just raw but have > > > maximum nutritional benefit. questions that can be asked to >farmers > > > when looking for raw dairy. > > > > > > Appreciate any input > > > > > > thanks, Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2003 Report Share Posted April 1, 2003 Michele, I wouldn't worry too much about the mold in the hay causing a milk quality problem. Cows have a 55 gallon filtering system (rumen) designed to remove toxins and other bad things. Some may get throught but most will be filtered out. I never noticed an alfalfa taste to our milk. In fact the only time I ever noticed a taste difference is when the garlic is growing in the spring and the cows graze that. Gives the milk a garlicky taste. danny Creek Bend Dairy Farm Harry & Peggy Strite 11917 Snug Harbor Lane port, MD 21795 301-582-4135 cbdfarm@... ----- Original Message ----- From: Michele Rowley Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 1:16 PM Subject: Re: Raw Milk Concerns I found this all interesting because the raw milk we get is from a family that has one milking cow. The use a machine to milk and clean it with a small amount of chlorine in a large bucket of hot water. I'm not really thrilled about this, but they do a hot water rinse of the tubing before they milk and then do the chlorine rinse after. Also, I found out this last time we milked for them that their hay sometimes gets slightly moldy and they still feed it to the cow (they are real tightwads and don't want to spend money on a good shed for the hay and don't want to throw out hay if she'll eat it). I wondered if this has a bad effect on the milk quality, but as long as it smells good and fresh we drink it. Sometimes the milk gets a real strong alfalfa taste, and then their is nothing that can be done to make it taste better, it's just nasty and we dump it and go get more...free. Michele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2003 Report Share Posted April 2, 2003 Danny, Thanks! I feel better about the mold hearing that. They did say she refuses the hay if it's too moldy, so maybe that's a little bit of built-in protection. About the alfalfa taste, the owner says if the cow gets into the alfalfa, or gets fed too much it tastes real strong. Michele ----- Original Message ----- From: Creek Bend Dairy Farm Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 10:23 AM Subject: Re: Raw Milk Concerns Michele, I wouldn't worry too much about the mold in the hay causing a milk quality problem. Cows have a 55 gallon filtering system (rumen) designed to remove toxins and other bad things. Some may get thought but most will be filtered out. I never noticed an alfalfa taste to our milk. In fact the only time I ever noticed a taste difference is when the garlic is growing in the spring and the cows graze that. Gives the milk a garlicky taste. Danny Creek Bend Dairy Farm Harry & Peggy Strite 11917 Snug Harbor Lane port, MD 21795 301-582-4135 cbdfarm@... ----- Original Message ----- From: Michele Rowley Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 1:16 PM Subject: Re: Raw Milk Concerns I found this all interesting because the raw milk we get is from a family that has one milking cow. The use a machine to milk and clean it with a small amount of chlorine in a large bucket of hot water. I'm not really thrilled about this, but they do a hot water rinse of the tubing before they milk and then do the chlorine rinse after. Also, I found out this last time we milked for them that their hay sometimes gets slightly moldy and they still feed it to the cow (they are real tightwads and don't want to spend money on a good shed for the hay and don't want to throw out hay if she'll eat it). I wondered if this has a bad effect on the milk quality, but as long as it smells good and fresh we drink it. Sometimes the milk gets a real strong alfalfa taste, and then their is nothing that can be done to make it taste better, it's just nasty and we dump it and go get more...free. Michele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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